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Vlad

City Select

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Just fyi - Garmin will be discontinuing City Select in the near future (within 3-6 months?). City Navigator (both US and Europe) will become the defacto standard for all Garmin autorouting units. CN's price is also being dropped for both US and Europe to more closely align with City Select's current pricing.

 

Apologies if you've already seen this - I'll try to get a better idea of the relevant dates in the next few days.

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I'm not buying that as it's written.

 

I own both. The current version of CN is totally unviable on a large number of the units for which CS has been marketed.

 

For example,, VistaC users with 24MB of map memory that live in a state where the regions are around 35MB and thus unable to load maps at all won't be too happy if that happens.

 

There may be some kind of change forthcoming, but it's not a simple "slash the price on this one and drop the other one" exercise.

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ya i also would like to know where this is coming from, i still am planning on buying city select buy if its on the way out, i don't want to spend the money(well if i can get it cheaper i would)

it looks like city navigator is listed to work on the same models as city select, but i could be wrong.

city navigator

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They have cut the upgrade pricing for North America. (I don't have the price list for the others in cereberal storage.) CN updates were $150 and are now $75. CS were $75 and are now $50.

 

Source: http://www.garmin.com/unlock/update.jsp

 

CS and CN really are aimed at different products. Reference: http://www.gpsriders.net/mapsource_sizes.html

 

Notice that CN7/NA is 1536.3MB in 111 chunks. CN7/NA is 1645.9 in 1059 chunks. You can't upload anything smaller than a chunk. Even if you don't have both (I do and will testify that the simple math generalizes this issue sufficiently well) simple math tells you that the average chunk is going to be substantially bigger in CN7. With the average chunk being about 10x as large, the units with less memory (Legend[C], Vista[C], V, etc.) are going to have a really hard time with CN7. You have to paint with a much broader brush.

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Straight from the Garmin website:

 

City Navigator NT data is identical to the content on existing City Navigator products, so you can still literally travel to a new city, look up your hotel, restaurants, and other services and use your compatible Garmin GPS to guide you there without stopping for directions. City Navigator NT includes the same fully routable detailed maps.

 

NT software is not sold separately. Since data is compressed differently than our other products, it can only be used with compatible Garmin products. See the product compatibility table (right) for a list of products that come with this software.

 

http://www.garmin.com/cartography/mapSource/citynavnt.jsp

 

Based on what I read, it looks like they are going with compression techniques to trim down CN so that it fits in the same or smaller memory than CS.

 

That being said, I hope they are planning to update the software in existing AR units and not use the lack of updated CS maps as a way to force people to the newer units.

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The City Select software is still preferable for handheld gps'rs due to the reasons listed by robertlipe. Ultimately, I feel that Garmin's standard road navigation software will be City Navigator, for a variety of reasons. In the meantime, Garmin still offers updates for the City Select software this year.

Edited by yeeoldcacher

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I think the vast majority of new Garmin Units that have come out in the past 18 months have included City Select (or the compressed version City Select NT).

The extra information held in City Navigator costs Garmin more in Licence fees than City Select.

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No this is definately real. I've abbreviated some of the product names/ignored some caps but this is pulled directly from a new product announcement as of the 21st.

 

----------------------------

 

"Garmin is pleased to announce Mapsource CN on DVD. This standalone product is designed for use with sp2720, sp c-series, i-series, ique series, quest series and various handhelds such as gpsmap60c/cs/76c/cs and etrex legend c/vista c."

 

"City Navigator is a direct replacement for city select and is now being offered at the same price we had previously been selling cs."

 

"Please note, for the purpose of data updates in North America, products which include CS North America will continue to use the CS DVD. Update pricing for City Select, North America and also City Select, Europe is being reduced to $50. Update pricing for City Navigator, NA and CN, Europe is being reduced to $75. These programs are Garmin direct."

 

CN, NA v7 - 010-10474-00 list $139.27 available now

CN, Europe v8 " " - 010-10373-00 list $349.99 available Nov 2005

 

Discontinued products:

 

CS, NA - 010-10473-00

CS, Europe - 010-10359-00

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Few questions then... If they are reducing the prices on the city select, are they reducing the motroguide or Topo USA sets too? Also on the link provided above by robertlipe it shows that the Blue Charts Americas are now $75... Is that for another region, or for the first region???

 

I have the GPSMAP 76 so I don't need cs or cn, but I would love BlueCharts, Topo 100k and metroguide... if they became cheaper at the same time that would be great, so any pricing info on these would be great.

 

Thanks,

Ben

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No this is definately real. I've abbreviated some of the product names/ignored some caps but this is pulled directly from a new product announcement as of the 21st.

I do not find it Garmins site. There are no announcement as of 21 oktober.

Only 3 Okt and 25 Okt

 

Could you pleace poste a link to it.

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Sorry i don't have a weblink on this - I received this info on paper as a product announcement provided to Garmin dealers, again dated 10/21/05.

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I've wondered in the past why Garmin kept separate CitySelect-NA and CityNavigator-NA products since they were so similar. But the timing of this announcement seems odd since Garmin just recently increased the map region sizing on CN-NA making it effectively incompatible with many of the handheld auto-routing models that have limited memory (esp. the LegendC/VistaC, V, and GPSMap60). As Robert mentioned, the new map regions are in some cases too big to fit in these units and in many cases greatly reduce the flexibility since you can no longer tailor the area covered to closely match your needs. This is even a problem for the handhelds with more memory. E.g. the 76c/cs and Quest have 115 MB of memory and with the old smaller regions that's just enough to cover a cross-country trip from SF to NY by choosing just those regions you plan to pass through. But with the larger regions of CN-NA, v7 this same memory size only lets you load in maps for about half of that trip.

 

Note that up through Version 6 the map regions in CS-NA and CN-NA were identical and it would have been feasible to drop the CS-NA product. But doing so with the new map regions in CN-NA v7 would severely impact many Garmin customers. One option would be for Garmin to go back to the old region sizes but I'm sure that would also upset at least a few customers of units with larger memory units who like the bigger regions.

 

Guess we'll just have to wait and see what Garmin has in mind.

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Yes the timing is also odd in that they just upgraded to City Select v 7.

 

I can't see them abandoning all the 24K memory GPSr owners, who must be a large % of their customer base. They must have some accomodation in mind.

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Yes the timing is also odd in that they just upgraded to City Select v 7.

I think it has something to do with the release of CN ver 8 in Europe in Nowember.

 

PS Garmin Quest in Europe has 256MB and it seems that Quest 2 will have 512MB

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so is this the bad news for me who gonna buy Legend C?

I also have a legend C, and wonder the same thing.... we will just have to wait and see. I wouldn't think that garmin would basicly cut off a newer GPS model from good uptodate autorouting software. but it would be nice if i could buy CS for a discounted price!

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or give it for free...otherwise it will us more than the advertise says....

to need a "real map" and router function it will cost us more than just 200$

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They're just gonna have to make the map segments smaller. :lol:

 

Sounds like the CN maps contain a lot more route calculation data, so comparing equal size segments of CN and CS, CN will take up quite a bit more memory than CS. I'm thinkin' my 60C may not be able to handle Washington, DC to New York City with Navigator. Gosh - that would force me to upgrade to a 76C :P

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Sounds like the CN maps contain a lot more route calculation data, so comparing  equal size segments of CN and CS, CN will take up quite a bit more memory than CS.

No, the difference is very small. Version 6 of the two products used the same map sizes for both products in North America. Here's the comparison giving the number of map segments, the MB needed without auto-routing, and the MB needed with auto-routing.

 

CityNavigator: 1073, 1185MB, 1611MB

CitySelect: 1073, 1172MB, 1592MB

 

So the extra data in CityNavigator adds only about 1% to the memory requirements compared to CitySelect.

Edited by peter

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Do you think the rural streets are in the CN as good as CS?

The maps and POIs are identical. They only differ in a few routing properties.

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Do you think the rural streets  are in the CN as good as CS?

The maps and POIs are identical. They only differ in a few routing properties.

How would CN work then in the 60CS vs CS? Would it route better as I read at the link above expaining differences or just for Street Pilot?

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I think the vast majority of new Garmin Units that have come out in the past 18 months have included City Select (or the compressed version City Select NT).

The extra information held in City Navigator costs Garmin more in Licence fees than City Select.

a bit off topic, but whats doesn NT mean? and how does it different than 'standard' versions??

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I am pretty ticked off, today I just bought CS7 NA and get home to find out that its just been discontinued in the last day.

 

I have emailed garmin asking if I can get my license changed to City Navigator since I use my Rino 530 for road navigation mostly.

 

waiting for a response.

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The City Select software will work the same as the City Navigator software on handheld units. From my experience, the main differences between the City Nav. and the City Select only show up when used on units that provide auto voice navigation. Plus, the City Select software is still better for handheld units like the 60's, 76's, etrex colors, and rino's due to the map segment sizes. Trust me, you are better off with the City Select for your rino, the map data(addresses, poi's, etc.) is the same.

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The City Select software will work the same as the City Navigator software on handheld units.  From my experience, the main differences between the City Nav. and the City Select only show up when used on units that provide auto voice navigation.  Plus, the City Select software is still better for handheld units like the 60's, 76's, etrex colors, and rino's due to the map segment sizes.  Trust me, you are better off with the City Select for your rino, the map data(addresses, poi's, etc.) is the same.

 

CS and CN are _not_ the same, as described above. Differences can be observed on the same hardware, with or without spoken directions. They will calculate different routes and give directions with a differing level of detail on the same hardware.

 

I agree that CS is better than CN for the handhelds with their limited memory because of their segement size. On a StreetPilot, you can double the memory for a trivial price; doubling memory on a VistaC means upgrading to a Map60. Doubling memory on a Map60 is upgrading to a Quest or a 76C.

 

As perspective, a 2610 comes with 128MB of memory. With CN6, that would hold detailed "no excuses" maps for the primary and obvious route between Nashville, TN and either St. Louis MO or Ft. Wayne, IN without any problem. I can't recall which one it is that doesn't fit in 128MB with CN7, but I think I recall one of them nott fitting any more because you have to paint with such a wide brush. Given that a 256MB CF flash for a 2610 was $3 after rebate, that's not a big deal, but for a handheld that doesn't support memory upgrades, it's a real drag.

 

The current situation is very odd.

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The City Select software will work the same as the City Navigator software on handheld units. From my experience, the main differences between the City Nav. and the City Select only show up when used on units that provide auto voice navigation. Plus, the City Select software is still better for handheld units like the 60's, 76's, etrex colors, and rino's due to the map segment sizes. Trust me, you are better off with the City Select for your rino, the map data(addresses, poi's, etc.) is the same.

I just ordered a Refubished 2610 from GPSCity. Can I get an upgrade to 256 for $3.00 ?

That would be great.

 

Jim

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NT (New Technology) maps are simply the same map data, but more efficiently compressed. Can only be handled by some units, since they have to have the proper software to understand how to unpack these maps.

Older/smaller units will not be upgraded to understand NT maps, for the simple reason that they don't have enough CPU power to make it feasible.

 

For this reason CN maps will come in two styles, traditional and NT. As far as I can understand, nothing prevents Garmin from making the map tiles smaller in the traditional version, to make it useful even in units like the Vista C.

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As far as I can understand, nothing prevents Garmin from making the map tiles smaller in the traditional version, to make it useful even in units like the Vista C.

It is my understanding that City Navigator's tiles WERE the same size as Select's tiles in version 6. Why would they make the tiles larger now in version 7, only to go back to smaller tiles again in version 8...? Especially if they're doing a traditional Navigator and an NT Navigator with special compression. It seems to me that they're gonna have two different versions like that, the difference should be in the size of the tiles.

 

What was the name of that one thread I saw here a couple of months ago...? Something like "What The Heck Are They Smoking At Garmin?" It MUST be something GOOOOOOooooood! :D

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I am pretty ticked off, today I just bought CS7 NA and get home to find out that its just been discontinued in the last day.

 

I have emailed garmin asking if I can get my license changed to City Navigator since I use my Rino 530 for road navigation mostly.

 

waiting for a response.

You probably don't want to do that for the reasons mentioned above.

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The City Select software will work the same as the City Navigator software on handheld units.  From my experience, the main differences between the City Nav. and the City Select only show up when used on units that provide auto voice navigation.  Plus, the City Select software is still better for handheld units like the 60's, 76's, etrex colors, and rino's due to the map segment sizes.  Trust me, you are better off with the City Select for your rino, the map data(addresses, poi's, etc.) is the same.

 

CS and CN are _not_ the same, as described above. Differences can be observed on the same hardware, with or without spoken directions. They will calculate different routes and give directions with a differing level of detail on the same hardware.

 

I agree that CS is better than CN for the handhelds with their limited memory because of their segement size. On a StreetPilot, you can double the memory for a trivial price; doubling memory on a VistaC means upgrading to a Map60. Doubling memory on a Map60 is upgrading to a Quest or a 76C.

 

As perspective, a 2610 comes with 128MB of memory. With CN6, that would hold detailed "no excuses" maps for the primary and obvious route between Nashville, TN and either St. Louis MO or Ft. Wayne, IN without any problem. I can't recall which one it is that doesn't fit in 128MB with CN7, but I think I recall one of them nott fitting any more because you have to paint with such a wide brush. Given that a 256MB CF flash for a 2610 was $3 after rebate, that's not a big deal, but for a handheld that doesn't support memory upgrades, it's a real drag.

 

The current situation is very odd.

I am not trying to argue here, and while there are some minor differences in the routes that are calculated by the different softwares, the overall map data is the same. The differences are between the road data attributes like median information, special allowances based upon time and such. The actual searchable map data is the same in both softwares. Will a user get a different route using one or the other? Given the right circumstances(e.g. time of day, location, roads to be traveled), yes. Does that always make one route better than the other? No. It is easier to see and hear the differences when using an autorouting unit that provides voice navigation. An example I have noticed, is when coming to a roundabout, when using City Select, the prompt will tell me to take a right and another right when entering the roundabout and needing to take the first turn available. Using City Navigator, the unit will tell me to take a right and then the first exit. A little more detailed instruction without needing to look at the screen to see which exit I need. The handheld units obviously can not do this, you still only get a beep for the turn. This is what I am referring to. Plus, as noted in this thread and others, you can be more selective about the maps areas you want on your unit when using a limited memory unit like a rino or etrex.

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The City Select software will work the same as the City Navigator software on handheld units.  From my experience, the main differences between the City Nav. and the City Select only show up when used on units that provide auto voice navigation.  Plus, the City Select software is still better for handheld units like the 60's, 76's, etrex colors, and rino's due to the map segment sizes.  Trust me, you are better off with the City Select for your rino, the map data(addresses, poi's, etc.) is the same.

 

CS and CN are _not_ the same, as described above. Differences can be observed on the same hardware, with or without spoken directions. They will calculate different routes and give directions with a differing level of detail on the same hardware.

 

I agree that CS is better than CN for the handhelds with their limited memory because of their segement size. On a StreetPilot, you can double the memory for a trivial price; doubling memory on a VistaC means upgrading to a Map60. Doubling memory on a Map60 is upgrading to a Quest or a 76C.

 

As perspective, a 2610 comes with 128MB of memory. With CN6, that would hold detailed "no excuses" maps for the primary and obvious route between Nashville, TN and either St. Louis MO or Ft. Wayne, IN without any problem. I can't recall which one it is that doesn't fit in 128MB with CN7, but I think I recall one of them nott fitting any more because you have to paint with such a wide brush. Given that a 256MB CF flash for a 2610 was $3 after rebate, that's not a big deal, but for a handheld that doesn't support memory upgrades, it's a real drag.

 

The current situation is very odd.

I am not trying to argue here, and while there are some minor differences in the routes that are calculated by the different softwares, the overall map data is the same. The differences are between the road data attributes like median information, special allowances based upon time and such. The actual searchable map data is the same in both softwares. Will a user get a different route using one or the other? Given the right circumstances(e.g. time of day, location, roads to be traveled), yes. Does that always make one route better than the other? No. It is easier to see and hear the differences when using an autorouting unit that provides voice navigation. An example I have noticed, is when coming to a roundabout, when using City Select, the prompt will tell me to take a right and another right when entering the roundabout and needing to take the first turn available. Using City Navigator, the unit will tell me to take a right and then the first exit. A little more detailed instruction without needing to look at the screen to see which exit I need. The handheld units obviously can not do this, you still only get a beep for the turn. This is what I am referring to. Plus, as noted in this thread and others, you can be more selective about the maps areas you want on your unit when using a limited memory unit like a rino or etrex.

The main concern that I and many other handheld users have is that in the latest version of City Nav (v7) the map segments are HUGE. Texas, for example takes 2 segments, New Mexico takes 1 Colorado take 1. With my 60cs I can build a route from my home in Texas to the Mountians in Colorado or New Mexico, load the City Select maps that cover the region and still have enough memory left over for topos of the area. Using CN V7 I would not be able to do this. I don't want to buy another GPS, such as a dedicated road unit, I am very happy with my 60cs. I want Garmin to support it as they have done up to now, and I don't think that is too much to ask.

Edited by CenTexDodger

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I just ordered a Refubished 2610 from GPSCity. Can I get an upgrade to 256 for $3.00 ?

If you shop hard enough and work the rebate game, sure. $3 was a really good price. Spot checking newegg, buy, and pricwatch shows that $15 or so is more typical right now. Bump to a 512 for only about $25. You're just not talking about big money. Watch fatwallet and/or techbargains for prices. CF memory is the kind of thing almost sure to be on sale for Black Friday.

 

Bargain hunting aside, the point was more that larger maps in the dashtops wasn't as big of a deal becuase those _can_ upgrade the memory readily.

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We seem to have got a little off topic here.

 

Has anyone actually seen this in print? I can not find it on the Garmin Website as of today and yesterday I was on with Garmin trying to find out where my 7.0 disk was and they made no mention of this. The disks are now taking 3 weeks for delivery.

 

As in an earlier post, I'll wait until Garmin says it is dicontinued.

Edited by baloo&bd

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No. there are maybe two or three topics out here that are discussing it, and several the people here have gotten word verbally or through other sources. We are all in "Wait and see" mode. If they discontinue City Select and do not make accomodations for those of us that have limited memory handhelds, they may have their inboxes flooded.

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If they discontinue City Select and do not make accomodations for those of us that have limited memory handhelds, they may have their inboxes flooded.

Agreed, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to start sending some polite email inquiries already. Product plans are easier to change if objections are raised early so I've sent a suggestion that if City Select is going away there should be a smaller region version of City Navigator.

 

I'd note that a similar situation occurred years ago with the GPS III+. Its 1.4 MB of memory was small but usable with the Roads & Recreation maps. But when Garmin failed to update that product and only continued support for the much more memory-hungry MetroGuide and CitySelect/Navigator products there were no longer any suitable street maps for the III+. At least in that case the unit was getting to be rather old anyway by the time the map support went away.

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I hadn't thought about it like that. It seems to me though it would be incredibly short sighted to do something like this. There are 8 or 10 different models that this change would effectively orphan--Legend C, Vista C, 60c/s, 76c/s, 4 Rino units, Quest, GPS V, and maybe some others.

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I am not too worried about the CS7 being discontinued. It makes sense for them to discontinue the product early. Version 7 will still be available for those newbies that buy new etrex's and map 60's and such. They now have a full year to get their next product setup or change next years version of City Nav. to have smaller map segments. I highly doubt they would not provide something for all of the etrex, 60's, and 76's so soon in their life cycle. The gps III I can understand though.

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I posed the following question to Garmin's MapSource Tech Support:

 

I have heard that the City Select product will be discontinued and that City Navigator will be the replacement product. I have also heard that City Navigator's map segment sizes are much larger than City Select's and that some of City Navigator's map segments will not even fit into units with smaller memory capacities...

 

Does this mean that the LegendC is now obsolete and now I'll have to buy a Quest (or more expensive unit) in order to have up-to-date map data in a unit with autorouting?

 

...And here is the official reply:

 

Thank you for contacting Garmin International.

 

It is true that City Select has been replaced by City Navigator. The map

sets are broken down by state, so there are a few maps that would be too

large for the unit you have. For all of the US there are only four maps that

are 24mb or higher, that's it. It is also possible that the next version of

City Navigator may go back to the way it was. So no, I don't see why you

would need to buy a new unit with more memory.

 

Best regards,

Jason M.

 

I'm assuming that of the four states that will not fit, three of them will be our country's most populated states (New York, California and Texas).

 

Discuss...

Edited by Neo_Geo

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I'm assuming that of the four states that will not fit, three of them will be our country's most populated states (New York, California and Texas).

It's four *regions* that are larger than 24 MB, not states. Some states, incl. the ones you list, are broken up into two or more regions (California is about 120 MB for the whole state, so it has several regions even with the new CN version).

 

But the Garmin response doesn't seem to realize how serious the problem will be since even if a single region will fit in your GPS, that's likely to still cause problems when you live anywhere near the edge of the region. And longer trips will take much more memory to cover than with today's smaller regions. The 115 MB memory of the 76c/cs or Quest (I) is enough for many cross-country trips by just selecting regions along the planned route using today's CS. But with the larger regions that much memory will only get you across a few states.

 

I was planning on getting a Quest (I) for combined car and hike/bike use but will now wait until Garmin clarifies the map situation. Otherwise I'll probably look more seriously at Lowrance alternatives.

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Thank you for contacting Garmin International.

 

It is true that City Select has been replaced by City Navigator. The map

sets are broken down by state, so there are a few maps that would be too

large for the unit you have. For all of the US there are only four maps that

are 24mb or higher, that's it. It is also possible that the next version of

City Navigator may go back to the way it was. So no, I don't see why you

would need to buy a new unit with more memory.

 

Best regards,

Jason M.

 

I'm assuming that of the four states that will not fit, three of them will be our country's most populated states (New York, California and Texas).

 

Discuss...

And what if one of these four areas is where I live?

 

Jeez, is this Garmin talking or Apple computer? This reminds me of the kind of stuff that Apple computer has done over the years, in effect alienating the loyal Mac users and making them look elsewhere for a computer.

 

A LOT of people who purchased a Garmin recently are going to be angry about this.

 

It might be a good time to purchase stock in Magellan! :rolleyes:

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It might be a good time to purchase stock in Magellan! :rolleyes:

The grass on the other side of the fence is merely a different colour of brown.

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"It is also possible that the next version of

City Navigator may go back to the way it was."

Sounds like there's some wiggle-room in there that may respond to customer request/demand.

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If they discontinue City Select and do not make accomodations for those of us that have limited memory handhelds, they may have their inboxes flooded.

Before I flood their inbox with an email, perhaps you folks can answer this one.

 

When you purchase a particular map set, either Topo or CS or CN. Does Garmon automatically provide updates that are downloadable off the support web site to keep your map up to date?

 

What is their policy to upgrade from one product to another as a registered user?

 

I am one of those who literaly, just yesterday ordered City Select v7 to go with a new Garmon 76cs. Am I going to be able to upgrade the software at a future date somehow or am I going to be told to go out and purchase a replacement product at full price?

 

If that is the case, I may be cancelling my order.

Edited by dhbaird

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I don't think this is to dramatic. I work with city select 7.0. New roads, new retaurants, new gaz station etc etc don't pop-up everyday. So even if they go back to CN, before CS becomes completaly obsolete will take decades. Interstates and HWY won't move. 42nd avenue in NY will still be there. Ya, they may be some new residential areas coming alive so what, what are the chances that the road or street you'll be looking for won't be listed in the program? In a way, even when a knew version comes out, some POI don't even exist no more or new ones came along which are not listed. In the area where I live, one new commercial street was build in the last 5 years and it still doesn't show in the latest version of CS.

By the time CS becomes unusable, my GPS will have become old and it will be time to get a knew one.

 

PS: even if Garmin would stick to CS, how many people would by the update every year?

Edited by Nomades

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When you purchase a particular map set, either Topo or CS or CN. Does Garmon automatically provide updates that are downloadable off the support web site to keep your map up to date?

No. They provide free updates for the MapSource program. Those updates fix bugs and add features to the program, but they do nothing for the actual map data.

 

They sell upgrades from one version to the next at a reduced price. You could go from version 6 to version 7, but you could not go from version 5 to 7.

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