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A Train Journey Cache?


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Hi all. I'm just delurking to ask for feedback on a cache idea.

 

Answers to clues (giving final co-ords) would be obtained over say a 20 mile train journey, i.e. how many clocks are on platform 2 of __ station. These answers would all be visible from the train. Would this be considered a commercial cache as you would need to purchase a ticket? Basically, would it get approval? The cache could be do-able by car although the idea would be to encourage train use by making it harder by car.

 

I understand that this would reduce the number of cachers hunting for the cache but the same could be said for a cache on a remote island getting less finds than one involving a ten mile hike or a cache and dash.

 

If the cache is actually hidden near the start location and the train trip was to somewhere interesting with commentary as you travel (and the return trip used to pick up any missing answers) would this be of interest to anybody.

 

Thanks for listening!

 

Janine

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If it can be done via train or by car, then it should be ok.

 

If all the info is on the cache page, then people will make up their mind if they want to do it or not, I would think they will though as variety is the spice of life :lol:

Edited by Deego
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Thanks for the comments. Like the steam railway idea - the Bluebell Line is the closest to us, but I fear this would definately be a commercial cache.

The reason I'm keen on the public transport idea is that Guy commutes 160 miles most week days (yes some of it on the M25) and is also a frequent flyer and he has constant guilt trips!

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There are caches in Austria that are on a toll mountain road. OK so you could walk, probably a round trip of 40 miles in severe mountain territory, but for most mere mortals it costs.

 

Thinking about it, there is one in a waterfall area that you can only walk to if you have bought a ticket.

 

So it is possible to get caches approved in some countries where a cost is involved.

 

I suppose it depends on the 'worth' of the journey. The Austrian ones are areas that you really would visit if you were in the region, so a cache is an added bonus.

 

The rest is my opinion only, not an official interpretation of the rules.

 

So with the train journey, if it was something like a steam line and you were going on that already - cache bonus seems great. Somebody might be a bit disgruntled that they couldn't do the cache for free, but driving between the various parts isn't exactly free.

 

You can't insist that every single cache must reachable by free transport, i.e. walking (even a bike costs :lol: ). For those that insist on free caches there are plenty of others to bag.

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Hi all. I'm just delurking to ask for feedback on a cache idea.

 

Answers to clues (giving final co-ords) would be obtained over say a 20 mile train journey, i.e. how many clocks are on platform 2 of __ station. These answers would all be visible from the train. Would this be considered a commercial cache as you would need to purchase a ticket? Basically, would it get approval? The cache could be do-able by car although the idea would be to encourage train use by making it harder by car.

 

I understand that this would reduce the number of cachers hunting for the cache but the same could be said for a cache on a remote island getting less finds than one involving a ten mile hike or a cache and dash.

 

If the cache is actually hidden near the start location and the train trip was to somewhere interesting with commentary as you travel (and the return trip used to pick up any missing answers) would this be of interest to anybody.

 

Thanks for listening!

 

Janine

I'd do a cache like this if it happened to coincide with somewhere I was going anyway. But be wary of setting co-ords to be found from a train. Last (and only) time I tried to use my Etrex on a train, because I was wondering how fast we were going, it totally refused to find me any satellites at all... even holding it by the window didn't work. :lol:

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this thread conicides nicely with a question I was going to ask anyway, about paying for caches. We tried to do a cache yesterday which required paying a fee to enter the site, and with no other way of getting the answer available. To be fair, the cache page warns that money will be required, and its 'only' 2 quid.

 

I don't really mind either way (although we decided not to pay yesterday) but just wondering how this evades the commercial cache rules?

 

The site is a landmark, and the money is towards its upkeep, which may make a difference!

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I don't really mind either way (although we decided not to pay yesterday) but just wondering how this evades the commercial cache rules?

 

The site is a landmark, and the money is towards its upkeep, which may make a difference!

If the site is a registered charity then it is allowed, I suppose this kinda brings up the Big T question again though?

 

I don't have a problem with this type of cache, as long as it is stated in the description what is required, also as helen in Mustardland has said, as well as co-ords (for the car user) you would have to be exact on the location so that it can be found easily from the train.

Another thought is, beware the double lined stations, you may not be able to see the answer due to a train being in the way?

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this thread conicides nicely with a question I was going to ask anyway, about paying for caches. We tried to do a cache yesterday which required paying a fee to enter the site, and with no other way of getting the answer available. To be fair, the cache page warns that money will be required, and its 'only' 2 quid.

 

I don't really mind either way (although we decided not to pay yesterday) but just wondering how this evades the commercial cache rules?

 

The site is a landmark, and the money is towards its upkeep, which may make a difference!

I can think of several I've done where you have to pay to park. £3 for the Stansted TB hotel, for a start, although you can walk in for free. Oh, and we paid £2 a car at one of the stages of the LOTR quest. Again if we'd been on foot or come on the Lakes bus we wouldn't have paid that. But we'd have paid bus fares!

 

I don't think there's anything to say it has to be free to get to a cache. It's not the same as charging people to do a cache, imho. As long as it's made clear (and if it's not in the description, it probably will be in the logs!) then that's ok I think.

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Very true, as have we paid to park on many occasion, although there is usually the option of cycling (if you're so inclined!) walking, or just parking further away (which we have also done). As I say, it is a worthwhile visit in its own right, (possibly not a charity - not sure), but my limited understanding was that one shouldn't have to pay to retrieve a cache.

 

As I say, I don't particularly object, and we would have paid yesterday except we couldn't be bothered to walk up 202 feet of steps! (So who can guess where I'm talking about?? The clues are there.... )

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Very true, as have we paid to park on many occasion, although there is usually the option of cycling (if you're so inclined!) walking, or just parking further away (which we have also done). As I say, it is a worthwhile visit in its own right, (possibly not a charity - not sure), but my limited understanding was that one shouldn't have to pay to retrieve a cache.

 

As I say, I don't particularly object, and we would have paid yesterday except we couldn't be bothered to walk up 202 feet of steps! (So who can guess where I'm talking about?? The clues are there.... )

Not St Paul's (my first guess) but you can see St Paul's from it? In fact I believe you have to be able to see St Paul's from it if you want to solve the clue...

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thats outrageous - to me that is an obvious commerical cache.

 

I have thought about caches in pubs - assuming there is no requirement to buy anything, then I can't see the problem. With letterboxing on Dartmoor, lots of them are kept behind the bar of a pub.

 

To be honest, i was thinking about this as a way of keeping the 16th century pub in london 'alive' if they tryto move the current virtual to WM.com. Would the owners be prepared to have a traditional cache there? Just some thoughts...

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There's a cache in the Yorkshire Dales we refused to do on the lines that it is owned and maintained by a commercial business - it's in the grounds of a pub, and they charge £2 to find it!!!

 

Imagine that!!

 

Awful!

Name and shame!!

It's called.......falls!!!! :lol:

 

This, in my opinion, breaks the guidelines!!!

 

I asked for it to be archived, but it wasn't.

 

When we went in, the barman also told us that in addition to us paying the £2 we had to buy a drink!!!

Edited by hazel and Phill
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From memory, the Stanstead TB (unless it has moved) did not require paying for parking - we visited on a Sunday in mid summer and parked on the road outside.

Actually I didn't either, as I arrived late in the evening and there wasn't anywhere to pay (I guess it's a manned booth at other times) But I might have done. The way I drove in I couldn't see anywhere safe on the road that wouldn't have been in someone's way. We must have come from different directions!

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I think the train journey cache sounds like fun, providing you can sort out the techie bits.

 

Purely from a selfish point of view, I would enjoy something like this providing both boarding and alighting stations were wheelchair accessible ... which essentially means they'd need to be manned.

 

As for paying for the train journey to do the cache ... I wouldn't mind in the slightest, many people drive to a cache location and presumably most of them pay for fuel!

 

I'd say go for it! variety is the spice of life!

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The monument cache is brilliant for kids - not only great views but a c ertificate at the bottom - a nice souvenier to take home. You missed a good un!

 

Bob

oh i'm sure we'll do it sometime, like i said, i don't particularly object if its obvious the money isn't just lining someones pockets!! being a Londoner, I've been up before, but didn't count the number of chimneys between it and St Pauls that time!

 

The main reason we didn't go up yesterday is we were saving our energy for a long haul round london! (aka feeling lazy! :lol: ) I was just scouting for opinions!

 

Dave

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I think the train cache sounds like an excellent idea.

 

I'm not so sure it could be classed as a commercial cache as the cache placer makes nothing out of it (unless he is really Mr Branson in disguise!).

 

My intupretation of commercail caches is those where the placer gains financially/fiscally in some way, not where a small expenditure is required to complete, especially if this is made clear at the very beginning to allow people to opt out.

Edited by Woody's Wanderers
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This, in my opinion, breaks the guidelines!!!

 

I asked for it to be archived, but it wasn't.

 

When we went in, the barman also told us that in addition to us paying the £2 we had to buy a drink!!!

As a result of many complaints this one has now been archived, a shame really because there seemed many positive logs. However there is the question of commerciality, which is a difficult one when it comes to caches with entrance fees.

 

As far as I know the setter of the Falls had no connection with the pub in question (though I might be wrong there) and thus was this cache any more commercial than the Monument cache, (which is a cracker!?) or the Golden Gallery of St Paul's (I think thats the name) which my dubious medical condition (xs weight :):) ) and fear of heights forbad me to do B)

 

Commerciality is looked pretty severley in the USA I believe, many entrance fee caches being refused - though again I may well be wrong here.

 

The question is when should Lactodorum and I set the bounds?

 

Eckington

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The question is when should Lactodorum and I set the bounds?

 

As ever, you seem to have been getting it pretty much right up till now, and responding to situations when you have a number of complaints seems to be a good backup.

 

My feelings are, the setter cannot profit.

There should be no commercial advertising involved.

Payments to park/enter must be clearly marked on the cache page - and prices kept up to date.

Payment to enter the 'attraction' is fine if the setter thinks it is worth a visit anyway and the cache adds some more interest as well, but shouldn't be used as a way of redeeming a 'lame' attraction - very subjective. Take for example the toll road to drive over the highest pass in Austria. Worth the drive on it's own, the fact that you could now bag 3 caches, excellent bonus.

 

There are plenty of other free caches to go for.

However, there is probably some kind of innate quality filter involved. A cache in Alton Towers, Thorpe Park, etc? I don't think so.

 

The payment in pub story is just outrageous.

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I think kbootb sums it up perfectly. As Ekky says, it can be difficult to know when to draw the line. With the m,onument cache, I feel that the payment is towards the upkeep of an important and historic monument, with fantastic views. St Pauls, as it happens, is free according to the cache page, although I expect they encourage a donation. I wouldn't object to paying anyway. One could even, possibly, justify having a cache on English Heritage property (if allowed, and there may be already) on the grounds that the money goes in part towards maintaining our national treasures.

 

However, I suspect that the charge for the falls is not towards upkeep, as I imagine that waterfalls are capable on maintaining themselves!

 

Again, I guess we'll rely on the mods opinions and on the rare occasion that there is a dispute, we'll all shout on here!

 

Dave

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The question is when should Lactodorum and I set the bounds? 

That particular cache went too far. From the logs it even seems that the landlord was trying to profit further from the cache, with or without the cache owner's knowledge. Was it a commercial cache? Clearly. But that doesn't mean that all caches which require some sort of charge are the same.

 

I'm always happy to accept your and Peter's excellent judgement. No need for any more rules here.

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The question is when should Lactodorum and I set the bounds? 

That particular cache went too far. From the logs it even seems that the landlord was trying to profit further from the cache, with or without the cache owner's knowledge. Was it a commercial cache? Clearly. But that doesn't mean that all caches which require some sort of charge are the same.

 

I'm always happy to accept your and Peter's excellent judgement. No need for any more rules here.

I agree with Alan...

 

Blatant Commercialism needs to be stopped... but where the entrance fee, or donation, or whatever you want to call it is obviously going to the upkeep of the area, or to a charity, or some other very good cause, then I think most good natured cachers will agree that it's fine.

 

This Cache just totally annoyed me...

 

The cache setter has only done a handful of caches, set this while on Holiday at his brother's pub, and then lets his brother profit from it... I think there's about 3 "guidelines" crossed there!!!

 

Anyway - IMPO I'm glad that one's archived and the landlord can no longer profit from a tupperware box with tat in it! :)

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The monument cache is brilliant for kids - not only great views but a c ertificate at the bottom - a nice souvenier to take home. You missed a good un!

 

Bob

Bob's quite right, it's a great cache. Even I, famously tight, thought it was £2 well spent. The 311 steps and wonderful views over London at night made this my favourite virtual - ever! Anyway, it's all for charity. I hope you have the knees to get it next time. :)

 

Usually I object to having to pay to cache - or even paying to park for a cache - And would expect the costs to be clearly shown on the cache page. The pub/landlord one sounds more than dodgy to me. That said, I do have a few in Oxford, set with Dan Wilson (aka Rocky) which require a boat to get to, available to hire for £10/12 per hour locally. And there's my Giants of Bekonscot cache, which starts in the world's oldest model village. I like to think they all offer great value for money. There's a local cache to me, hidden in the grounds of Bletchley Park where codes were cracked on WWII. It's not cheap to get in, which is why it's still on my 'In Bucks, but not yet done' list.

 

Back on topic, I've always thought a multi cache set along a tube line (or several caches along several lines), with a physical cache outside the station at the end, would make an interesting challenge. You could explore the network all day for the price of a travel card. The only worry would be you couldn't do them by car - a key element of the original post outline. I guess that would make my idea too commercial.

 

SP

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It seems to me that the key difference between "falls" and all the other caches with a "pay-to-play" element is who benefits.

 

Caching - indeed any leisure activity - costs money. Money for equipment, parking and other transport costs, for swaps and, yes, sometimes for entrance fees like those Paul quotes. Does the need for this expenditure make the cache commercial? I don't think so, because the cache owner, nor anyone associated with him/her, doesn't benefit.

 

However, a pay-to-play cache which is set up primarily to make money for the cache owner or his associates, or even simply to draw attention to their commercial activity, is not in the spirit of the sport. This is where the line is.

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The rules are quite clear and unambiguous on such commercial caches:

Commercial caches attempt to use the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly (intentionally or non-intentionally) to solicit customers through a Geocaching.com listing. These are NOT permitted. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services.

 

If the cache requires that finders pay a specific railway fare to bag the cache, then it is very clearly a breach of the rules.

 

There is explicitly no dispensation for "charity" fares.

caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted

 

As has been mentioned obliquely, and despite the fundamentally altruistic nature of geocaching, there is an awful precedent which shows that GC.com will not tolerate charity in geocaching, even in the exceptional circumstances when millions of people's lives were devastated by calumny.

 

Commercial caches which promote an environmentally unfriendly gas-guzzling vehicle of a certain brand are an exception, but that may p'raps be because certain sticky palms were greased? We all know what absolute power does to some people. :blink:

 

It's a pity because some of those steam railway preservation outfits are very clearly run by people who love their hobby and quite certainly don't put in their thousands of hours of voluntary labour for any kind of financial gain.

Edited by The Forester
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