Caches For Premium Members

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

If this has been discussed before I apologize...

I was just wondering what the pros and cons are of hiding a cache for premium members only. I ask because we are getting ready to put together another cache and its one of the options we have available to us but can't seem to come up with a good reason to do so.

Yes I know..."If you can't come up with a good reason to do it then don't!" We probably won't...but it got us thinking about the topic and we're interested in hearing different view points.

Thanks

T*B*

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

Being a non premium member does not give me access to premium member only caches. As far as I am concerned I wonder what has made this cache a premium member only cache? Did the owner put in that much effort that they only want to share it with other premium members or is it hidden on their front porch. Was it hidden in a wonderful location or under a lamp post skirt. It the cache full of wonderful treasures or dollar store trade items. Has the owner had problems with cache theives and only wants premimum members to find the cache. Just some things to consider. No, I am not ready to become a premium member yet, but if I would look at a premium members cache I would like it to be better than a normal cache that I have found.

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

This topic has been discussed heavily Members only.

It all boils down to personal opinions.

The pro MOC crowd (myself included) like these caches because they give you an "audit log," make it harder for cache maggots to destroy their cache. The second part is not fool proof. We feel that we are "giving back" to the sport by providing caches availbale to other paying members.

The Anti MOC crowd cries eliteism, claims that these caches are devisive. Some of these people feel that they "give back" by hiding caches and being an active member.

In the end, no one agrees to meet in the middle.

My four newest caches are Members Only, and this is what I intend to do for all my future caches.

Edited October 22, 2005 by Kit Fox

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

I have listed a cache as member only when I have had a FTF prized in the cache. Once the prize is gone I have changed them to non member only.

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

I've seen/heard of it being done in the past where a premium member will list their new caches a MOC's for the first few weeks or so, but then open it up for everone after that.

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

I really don't see the reason for "Members Only" caches. They really are restrictive to the new coming members, and will not prevent cache damage, and muggling.

If new people think, that you have to pay to do caches, then they're going to just forget about it all together. Keep them open to everyone.

$0.02 :mad:

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

I place MOC because it cuts down on the riff-raff. MOC does work in this regard and is a great way to cut down on traffic in the area. I'm NOT being classists or elitists. Please don't even go there (one of my claims to fame is that 'I can spit farther than you'). I just think less is good. And MOC provides less visibility. Also, I'm doing A LOT less cache maintenance since I listed the caches as MOC.

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

The difference in a MOC and every other cache is if a box is checked or not :mad: .

I don't see any valid reason to make MOC only caches, unless maybe you just like restricing page viewing on an arbitrary measure?

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

I place MOC because it cuts down on the riff-raff. MOC does work in this regard and is a great way to cut down on traffic in the area. I'm NOT being classists or elitists. Please don't even go there (one of my claims to fame is that 'I can spit farther than you'). I just think less is good. And MOC provides less visibility. Also, I'm doing A LOT less cache maintenance since I listed the caches as MOC.

You wrote:

I place MOC because it cuts down on the riff-raff.

The definition for riffraff:

1 a : disreputable persons b : RABBLE c : one of the riffraff

2 : REFUSE, RUBBISH

(The capitialization of RABBLE, REFUSE and RUBBISH in the definition is not mine.)

Then you wrote:

I'm NOT being classists or elitists. Please don't even go there

I didn't go there. You did.

Online dictionaries are your friend. dictionary

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

This topic has been discussed heavily Members only.

WOW...I guess it has! :mad:

Kit Fox thanks for the link

T*B*

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

I placed MOC out of necessity due to a cache thief in the area. A pros is that the caches are still there, the con is that the MOC have been found about 4 to 7 times in the past year and my other caches in the state parks near by have been visited 16 to 23 times.

There is much less maintenance and I do not worry about the area being damaged, however, it is discouraging to see great caches in great locations just sitting there.

I place caches for them and the location to be found and enjoyed by others. I do not feel the MOC are the best way to go unless you really need to protect them and need the audit function to monitor them.

GEO.JOE

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

You wrote:
I place MOC because it cuts down on the riff-raff.

The definition for riffraff:

1 a : disreputable persons b : RABBLE c : one of the riffraff

2 : REFUSE, RUBBISH

(The capitialization of RABBLE, REFUSE and RUBBISH in the definition is not mine.)

Then you wrote:

I'm NOT being classists or elitists. Please don't even go there

I didn't go there. You did.

Online dictionaries are your friend. dictionary

Hehehe, someone is a tad sensitive. And yes, 'tad' is in the dictionary ... :mad:

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

I hold no ill temper for members, as a matter of fact it is likely I'll become one in the future. But the fact that good caches are being restricted from me is somewhat annoying. I feel I am just as good a cacher as any premium member. (Experience is not a requirement for Groundspeak to receive payment.)

I think it is a predijust way to exclude other cachers and really is not that effective, muggles can still find an MOC.

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

Whenever I hide a new cache, I always make it MO until after the FTF then I open it up to everyone.

Just my little way of thanking those who support the site.

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

Hehehe, someone is a tad sensitive. And yes, 'tad' is in the dictionary ...

Someone relies on a reader to infer the tone of his post, and is sometimes not a skillful enough author to covey this to all readers. Especially the ones who need to use little animated pictures, or resort to dotting their i's with smily faces to express themselves. Perhaps this will help.

(Insert emoticon of eyes rolling back in head here.)

And yes every word I used is in the dictionary as well.

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

Why did I even go there? :mad:

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

Someone relies on a reader to infer the tone of his post, and is sometimes not a skillful enough author to covey this to all readers. Especially the ones who need to use little animated pictures, or resort to dotting their i's with smily faces to express themselves. Perhaps this will help.

(Insert emoticon of eyes rolling back in head here.)

And yes every word I used is in the dictionary as well.

Um, I couldn't find 'smily' anywhere in the dictionary ... :mad:

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

Um, I couldn't find 'smily' anywhere in the dictionary ...

Made you look! :mad:

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

Um, I couldn't find 'smily' anywhere in the dictionary ...

Made you look!

Seriously, thanks for the dictionary link. I've never bookmarked one and am always picking up my old hardcover edition to look stuff up. Now, I've got a dictionary thats only a click away ...

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

And now I have to be nice and admit my original posts were a bit strident. I hate when that happens.

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

I'm not against the MO caches, but as with airmapper it is sometimes kind of annoying because I can't view/find them. (No big deal I'll get over it)

Although I do think that they have their place, not only as just a little extra perk for the PM's that are here, but to keep the activity around them low, a special FTF prize and other such things as that. Ultimately it’s the decision of the cache owner to make it members only no matter the reasoning behind it.

As for Arrestableoffense, I have no problem with them, and I do plan on becoming a PM in the future. So that solves the problem.

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

And now I have to be nice and admit my original posts were a bit strident. I hate when that happens.

strident? TAint that the stuff they sell dowm at meglomart fer gettin rid of zits :mad:

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

I just recently visited a cache that was in the middle of a Home Depot parking lot. Right in a 4x4ft section of foilage. With me, I guess there comes the hope that a member's only cache will be a quality journey, not a trip to the home improvement store. I know that's not absolute however, that's the hope....

Edited October 22, 2005 by agentblue

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

I upgraded to premium membership last weekend. I didn't do to make me "superior", I did it to keep the forums open. This is a good resource, pay for it and it will be here....

(I have seen other forums fold due to lack of money...) :mad:

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

I'm New, but I hid a members only cache due to the fact that i want to share the spot, but i do not want alot of traffic here. I think that is a good reason to have members only caches. That and I like to support my most favorite website that provides me with hours of enjoyment! :mad:

Edited October 22, 2005 by jadeskyline

Posted October 22, 2005 · October 22, 2005

The difference in a MOC and every other cache is if a box is checked or not .
I don't see any valid reason to make MOC only caches, unless maybe you just like restricing page viewing on an arbitrary measure?

It is not arbitrary. It is a reward for members who have paid so everyone including non-members have a site to enjoy.

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

As a few folks have already noted in their replies, I feel that this is a matter of personal opinion or preference. A goodly number of our caches -- but not all -- are member-only caches (MOC), and this was a conscious decision on our part, and for the following reasons:

1) It seems to be one way to support geocaching.com, by encouraging members to upgrade to Premium membership, which then helps to suport the site and its staffers.

2) The audit logs feature appeals to us; with it we can gauge interest in the cache and see how many folks are visting the pages, and also see the stats on repeat visitors -- usually more than 4 visits means that the visitor is hooked on the cache. The audit logs for some of our really extreme caches in the Psych cache (Psycho Urban Cache and Psycho Backcountry cache) series show that some serious addicts visit the cache page 50, 60, or even 80 or 90 times.

3) For our extreme caches, most of which have terrain ratings of 4.0 or higher, and which could result in seriuos injury of death if attempted by someone untrained and/or unqualified, the MOC status ensures that these cache listing pages will NEVER be stumbled upon by someone just browsing the web, but rather only seen by Premium members, which offers a bit of assurance that the visitor may be more of a seasoned veteran.

4) The MOC status keeps most hostile space aliens from stumbling upon the cache listing, as studies have proven that they do not usually have Premium memberships, for any of several reasons.

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

It is not arbitrary. It is a reward for members who have paid so everyone including non-members have a site to enjoy.

Excellent point, well made! Thanks!

Edited October 23, 2005 by Vinny & Sue Team

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

It is not arbitrary. It is a reward for members who have paid so everyone including non-members have a site to enjoy.

Not so much. Apparently you don't look at geocaching at a business angle.

Yes, you need an income. That's where premium membership comes in.

Yes, you need a reason for people to buy premium membership. GPX/LOC files, Pocket Queries, Bookmarking, Previewing Beta Versions of Features, and Off Topic Forums.

Yes, I need an expanding market.

We lost you on the third, I'm sure. If everyone decided that they just didn't want to be a responsible hider and maintain their cache, and figured it would easier to make it a "MOC" then everyone who is new to the sport would have little to no caches to find.

Obviously, the good ones would be marked with MOC marks because you wouldn't want those caches to be muggled. Let the newbie find a badly placed micro, so they can think, "This is stupid!" Wouldn't you rather want them to find a good one at a great location to make them think, "Hey, I really like this sport. Get's the family out for good excercise, family bonding, and everyone has fun."

These people who find a great cache on their first hunt, like it, continue to cache, will pay for premium membership. But...if their is no product, why pay money for it?

Really now, do you want to shield potential premium members of reason why they would want to support the game?

For some reason, I think a few of you actually would.

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

With over 200,000 caches hidden around the world, are newbies really in danger of not having enough caches to find?

I don't think there is much chance of every premium member making all of their caches MOCs, most people posting here have said that they list only a minority of their caches as MOCs.

I personally like the idea of doing something special for people who are willing to pony up 8 cents a day to support geocaching.

I also like the idea of protecting a special cache (either in a more sensitive environment or with special trade item) by reducing the number of people who will visit certain caches.

I have not placed an MOC cache yet, but can certainly see doing so at some point in the future.

nfa-jamie

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

I make all my hide MOCs for the first few days, both to reward the members but quite frankly also to increase my enjoyment. I love watching the audit logs, see who looks first, who looks a lot, trying to guess who is going to make the FTF attempt.

Paul

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

I dont understand the "elitism" aspect - at seventy five cents a week - in comparison to the cost of GPS units, personal computers, and gas ...

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

I really don't see the reason for "Members Only" caches. They ...will not prevent cache damage, and muggling....

They can and do prevent the intensional theft. That is until the cache maggot becomes a premium member. Locally MOC's have a higher survival rate.

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

...I think it is a predijust way to exclude other cachers and really is not that effective, muggles can still find an MOC.

You are right that a muggle can find a cache that wasn't hidden well on accident. My experience tells me otherwise though on intensional theft and vandalism.

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

The definition for riffraff:

1 a : disreputable persons b : RABBLE c : one of the riffraff

2 : REFUSE, RUBBISH

Hey! I resemble that remark!

I've got a series of caches that are MOC's. This series has 4 stages where you collect jigsaw puzzle pieces. Assemble the puzzle, decrypt the runes and find the 5th cache. I made 15 puzzles to start with, at about 2 hours per puzzle. When a player solves the encryption, finding the final cache, they also find a second ammo can where they are instructed to leave their puzzle. Every so often, I collect the puzzles and redistribute the pieces to the other 4 caches.

I made this a MOC to reduce the amount of traffic. I've lost 1 puzzle already, and I figure I'll probably lose a few more over time, to folks who like a kewl souvenir. By making it a MOC, I also reduce the number of visits I have to make to redistribute the pieces.

My plan is to eliminate the jigsaw puzzle aspect, and make it a multi/puzzle after all the locals have had their turns at it.

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

Not so much. Apparently you don't look at geocaching at a business angle.

Yes, you need an income. That's where premium membership comes in.

Yes, you need a reason for people to buy premium membership. GPX/LOC files, Pocket Queries, Bookmarking, Previewing Beta Versions of Features, and Off Topic Forums.

Yes, I need an expanding market.

We lost you on the third, I'm sure. If everyone decided that they just didn't want to be a responsible hider and maintain their cache, and figured it would easier to make it a "MOC" then everyone who is new to the sport would have little to no caches to find.

Obviously, the good ones would be marked with MOC marks because you wouldn't want those caches to be muggled. Let the newbie find a badly placed micro, so they can think, "This is stupid!" Wouldn't you rather want them to find a good one at a great location to make them think, "Hey, I really like this sport. Get's the family out for good excercise, family bonding, and everyone has fun."

These people who find a great cache on their first hunt, like it, continue to cache, will pay for premium membership. But...if their is no product, why pay money for it?

Really now, do you want to shield potential premium members of reason why they would want to support the game?

For some reason, I think a few of you actually would.

Nice theory that MOCs are slowing expansion of the business but show me any evidence that is happening. I would be very interested in Geocaching's business model or "angle" as you call it. I'm sure the dollars come from a combination of premium memberships and the online store. I am also positive they have studied their business more than you or I have and if MOCs were going to impact new members not staying they would not have implemented them.

Like you I have no evidence, but would bet the reasons new cachers stop caching after a few finds varies greatly. What percentage would stay if there first cache was a great cache? Who knows? But what makes up a great cache varies even among long time cachers. What you think is a great cache may turn a new cacher off. Maybe finding a few parking lot micros gives a new cacher the confidence to hunt for the 3 and 4 star ones? See I can make up ungrounded theories too. Or have I "lost you" on the concept?

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

I have hidden a couple caches where the land owners/managers are leary of the traffic and type of people looking for it. I tell them I can make it a MOC which usually makes them feel better. They will get a little less traffic and people who pay to play.

If it is a selling point to location owners I am glad to leverage it. For the most part though I prefer to make them non-MOC so everyone can enjoy it. On the flip side though I think everyone who likes caching shoudl pay the $30. Money adds up quick and can help drive features, better hardware, and who knows what else

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

I live near Indianapolis in a fairly high cache density area. I reckon I have had only one MOC appear in the areas I choose to search. It had been muggled and I logged two DNFs before I was able to log the find.

I'm not judging that cache as good or bad, although that incident does seem to blow the low traffic/low maintenance argument.

Personally, I have not seen or read about any acceptable justification for MOC caches except...actually I can't think of any good reason.

But if you hide one in my stomping grounds, I won't mind searching for it.

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

Not so much. Apparently you don't look at geocaching at a business angle.

Yes, you need an income. That's where premium membership comes in.

Yes, you need a reason for people to buy premium membership. GPX/LOC files, Pocket Queries, Bookmarking, Previewing Beta Versions of Features, and Off Topic Forums.

Yes, I need an expanding market.

We lost you on the third, I'm sure. If everyone decided that they just didn't want to be a responsible hider and maintain their cache, and figured it would easier to make it a "MOC" then everyone who is new to the sport would have little to no caches to find.

Obviously, the good ones would be marked with MOC marks because you wouldn't want those caches to be muggled. Let the newbie find a badly placed micro, so they can think, "This is stupid!" Wouldn't you rather want them to find a good one at a great location to make them think, "Hey, I really like this sport. Get's the family out for good excercise, family bonding, and everyone has fun."

These people who find a great cache on their first hunt, like it, continue to cache, will pay for premium membership. But...if their is no product, why pay money for it?

Really now, do you want to shield potential premium members of reason why they would want to support the game?

For some reason, I think a few of you actually would.

Nice theory that MOCs are slowing expansion of the business but show me any evidence that is happening. I would be very interested in Geocaching's business model or "angle" as you call it. I'm sure the dollars come from a combination of premium memberships and the online store. I am also positive they have studied their business more than you or I have and if MOCs were going to impact new members not staying they would not have implemented them.

Like you I have no evidence, but would bet the reasons new cachers stop caching after a few finds varies greatly. What percentage would stay if there first cache was a great cache? Who knows? But what makes up a great cache varies even among long time cachers. What you think is a great cache may turn a new cacher off. Maybe finding a few parking lot micros gives a new cacher the confidence to hunt for the 3 and 4 star ones? See I can make up ungrounded theories too. Or have I "lost you" on the concept?

Good theory. Comes from a lot of experience I see.

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

If I spend $5.00 for an ammo can, $10.00 for swag and $20.00 for gas to go hide a cache then my investment will be available for all to enjoy. If I host an event cache it will be for all that cache. If some want to make their caches for the members only then let them do what they want to do. Search for what you like and ignore the rest and have fun.

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

Not so much. Apparently you don't look at geocaching at a business angle.

Yes, you need an income. That's where premium membership comes in.

Yes, you need a reason for people to buy premium membership. GPX/LOC files, Pocket Queries, Bookmarking, Previewing Beta Versions of Features, and Off Topic Forums.

Yes, I need an expanding market.

We lost you on the third, I'm sure. If everyone decided that they just didn't want to be a responsible hider and maintain their cache, and figured it would easier to make it a "MOC" then everyone who is new to the sport would have little to no caches to find.

Obviously, the good ones would be marked with MOC marks because you wouldn't want those caches to be muggled. Let the newbie find a badly placed micro, so they can think, "This is stupid!" Wouldn't you rather want them to find a good one at a great location to make them think, "Hey, I really like this sport. Get's the family out for good excercise, family bonding, and everyone has fun."

These people who find a great cache on their first hunt, like it, continue to cache, will pay for premium membership. But...if their is no product, why pay money for it?

Really now, do you want to shield potential premium members of reason why they would want to support the game?

For some reason, I think a few of you actually would.

Nice theory that MOCs are slowing expansion of the business but show me any evidence that is happening. I would be very interested in Geocaching's business model or "angle" as you call it. I'm sure the dollars come from a combination of premium memberships and the online store. I am also positive they have studied their business more than you or I have and if MOCs were going to impact new members not staying they would not have implemented them.

Like you I have no evidence, but would bet the reasons new cachers stop caching after a few finds varies greatly. What percentage would stay if there first cache was a great cache? Who knows? But what makes up a great cache varies even among long time cachers. What you think is a great cache may turn a new cacher off. Maybe finding a few parking lot micros gives a new cacher the confidence to hunt for the 3 and 4 star ones? See I can make up ungrounded theories too. Or have I "lost you" on the concept?

Good theory. Comes from a lot of experience I see.

AO,

You haven't been a member long enough to remember this site "pre-upgrades." GC crashed all the time, sometimes it took days to log your finds. I believe all of us Premium Members played a significant part in funding the computer upgrades.

It just so happened that one of my MOC caches convinced a local to pony up the dough, in order to find one of my caches (containing a White Jeep TB). For over a year he protested having to pay for "something that should be free." Now he regrets not signing up earlier. He is using PQs, finding all the other MOCs in the area, and enjoying the zoomable maps on the cache pages.

As for MOCs potentially causing prospective members to be turned off, who cares? This sport has grown exponentially without those members. If someone is turned off by good, wholesome, entertainment, because they refuse to shell out $3.00, then we don't need them here.

I signed up as a Premium Member before I owned a GPS, because I liked what I saw.

Edited October 23, 2005 by Kit Fox

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

I am not a premium member and other than being able to find members only caches I see no reason to become one. None of the other features would be useful to me. I would be glad to send the $30 or whatever to support the web site, but the idea that it is also paying to find some caches that in my experience... yes I do have member friends ... are no better than normal free ones doesn't sit well with me. The only excuse I can think of to make a cache "members only" except for the oft quoted "elitist cacher" reason, is if your cache is hidden in an area that can not withstand much traffic because of environmental, political, or land owner issues.

It would be nice to be able to filter them out of my closest unfound caches list. Maybe if I got a premium membership I could do that!!!

Didn't use a dictionary or spell check so go at it guys....

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

The difference in a MOC and every other cache is if a box is checked or not .
I don't see any valid reason to make MOC only caches, unless maybe you just like restricing page viewing on an arbitrary measure?

It is not arbitrary. It is a reward for members who have paid so everyone including non-members have a site to enjoy.

Do you have knowledge of any steps Groundspeak takes to ensure that those sending them money for 'premium memberships' are any better or worse than anyone else??

Because I've never heard of any... they just cash the checks and award the the new abilities, doesn't matter if the person is the world's most respectable cacher or some traveler stealing cache raiding punk. Does that seem arbitrary to you?

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

I am not a premium member and other than being able to find members only caches I see no reason to become one. None of the other features would be useful to me. I would be glad to send the $30 or whatever to support the web site, but the idea that it is also paying to find some caches that in my experience... yes I do have member friends ... are no better than normal free ones doesn't sit well with me. The only excuse I can think of to make a cache "members only" except for the oft quoted "elitist cacher" reason, is if your cache is hidden in an area that can not withstand much traffic because of environmental, political, or land owner issues.

Don't assume that all MOC caches are lame, uninspired hides. My latest caches required quite a bit of effort to create them. I even lost some blood while hiding my Phobia cache. None were micros, and all of them were hidden in uninhabited, forest areas.

It would be nice to be able to filter them out of my closest unfound caches list. Maybe if I got a premium membership I could do that!!!

That would be the "ignore" feature only available to Premium Members.

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

Good theory. Comes from a lot of experience I see.

What I do is solve business problems with technology. That is not a catch phrase that is what I do as a consultant. So yes when you start talking about a business models and what drives them I do have some experience.

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

I place MOC because it cuts down on the riff-raff. MOC does work in this regard and is a great way to cut down on traffic in the area. I'm NOT being classists or elitists. Please don't even go there (one of my claims to fame is that 'I can spit farther than you'). I just think less is good. And MOC provides less visibility. Also, I'm doing A LOT less cache maintenance since I listed the caches as MOC.

Are you saying MO caches attract a "better" class of geocacher? I know you said you weren't trying to be elitist, but using the term "riff-raff" to describe non-paying members sort of blows that argument. :mad:

I would guess you do less maintenance to MO caches because they are visited less often.

I am a PM because I enjoy geocaching and I think it is important to support the site that makes it all possible.

I'm not sure how I feel about MO caches. I'm not inclined to use that feature at the moment, but I might change my mind if caches around me start being methodically destroyed as has happened in other areas.

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

I am not a premium member and other than being able to find members only caches I see no reason to become one. None of the other features would be useful to me. I would be glad to send the $30 or whatever to support the web site, but the idea that it is also paying to find some caches that in my experience... yes I do have member friends ... are no better than normal free ones doesn't sit well with me. The only excuse I can think of to make a cache "members only" except for the oft quoted "elitist cacher" reason, is if your cache is hidden in an area that can not withstand much traffic because of environmental, political, or land owner issues.

Don't assume that all MOC caches are lame, uninspired hides. My latest caches required quite a bit of effort to create them. I even lost some blood while hiding my Phobia cache. None were micros, and all of them were hidden in uninhabited, forest areas.

It would be nice to be able to filter them out of my closest unfound caches list. Maybe if I got a premium membership I could do that!!!

That would be the "ignore" feature only available to Premium Members.

I did not say that I assumed they ALL are lame, but if they are "pay to cache" sites then none of them should be lame.

Re ignore being a premium function.. I know that. Perhaps the irony escaped you.

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

It is not arbitrary. It is a reward for members who have paid so everyone including non-members have a site to enjoy.

Do you have knowledge of any steps Groundspeak takes to ensure that those sending them money for 'premium memberships' are any better or worse than anyone else??

No but I you are presenting a scenario that I never made the argument for or againist. Really this has not to do with the question.

Because I've never heard of any...

Me either. Has nothing to do with anything.

they just cash the checks and award the the new abilities, doesn't matter if the person is the world's most respectable cacher or some traveler stealing cache raiding punk.

Still presents a scenario that has nothing to do with anything.

Does that seem arbitrary to you?

No.

Arbitrary

Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle.

It would be arbitrary if the moderators of this forum decided who could see what cache based on their mood for the day. Basing it on a reason like rewarding people who are supporting the site by definition is not arbitrary. Everyone knows how they can see MOCs. It is not by chance, whim or impulse. It is by becoming a member.

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

Still presents a scenario that has nothing to do with anything.

what question? I don't recall the OP acutally asking a question. They wanted to know the pros and cons.

It would be arbitrary if the moderators of this forum decided who could see what cache based on their mood for the day. Basing it on a reason like rewarding people who are supporting the site by definition is not arbitrary. Everyone knows how they can see MOCs. It is not by chance, whim or impulse. It is by becoming a member.

What word would use to describe the process by which premium members are allowed in?

Whoever by chance sends in a check gets to be one. That doesn't determine if they're good, bad, pirates with a checking account, whoever. "Special" caches for anyone :mad: .

When you say supporting, you mean paying money to Groundspeak, thats one way of supporting this site. There are dozens of ways to support this site, or geocaching as a whole. People supporting the site in some ways get to see MOC pages, people supporting in other ways do not. That seems 'based on or subject to individual judgment or preference' or arbitrary.

I don't care if Groundspeak makes money, good for them they run a huge site. I don't care if cache owners restrict who gets the info for their caches, it's their cache. But doing it by MOC seems silly. If I make a special cache only for certain set of people then it might be for quality cache hiders, or cachers that help set up/run events, or cachers that trade up and are always helpful (a good citizen?), or cachers that help get good publicity in the news, or cachers that make the local org happen, or or cachers that WHATEVER I want to reward. Yes, a number of whomever I may want to 'reward' may be 'premium' members, but not all 'premium' members are necessarily people I want to 'reward'. Just using who has put up 8cents a day or whatever the minute amount seems like its based on a whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle.

edit: fixed quote

Edited October 23, 2005 by welch

Posted October 23, 2005 · October 23, 2005

Yes, a number of whomever I may want to 'reward' may be 'premium' members, but not all 'premium' members are necessarily people I want to 'reward'. Just using who has put up 8cents a day or whatever the minute amount seems like its based on a whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle.

Your kidding right? It is based on the fact that they paid.

If you don't want to reward premium member then don't place any MOCs.

As for your misuse of the word arbitrary I don't know what to say. By your definition people who are members of the country club are arbitrarily allowed to play golf there just because they paid. No one checks to see if they are a good golfer or not.

But I will say it one more time. The reason people are allowed to hunt MO caches are because they paid. The reason people place MOCs are to reward those who have supported the site.

Saying is is arbitrary is a total miss characterization and implies Groundspeak is victimizing or somehow being unfair to people who are not premium members. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Caches For Premium Members

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