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Nudecacher Innocent!


Nudecacher
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ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!! You'd think we were talking about whether or not you should take a gun with you when you Geocache.

 

I don't see Gary promoting his lifestyle in this thread, he was issued a citiation for while Geocaching and had it thrown out. This about the citiation, not his beliefs about naturalism.

 

As for those of you who are making the "Thank god I wasn't Geocaching with my children while he was looking for the same cache I was" statements. Ask yourself this; Do I live in WASHINGTON STATE? If the answer is no, then I am confident you won't have to suffer the the emotional trauma of running into the Nude Cacher. How many other nude geocachers have you heard, just this one. I can't even think of the last time I ran into another Geocacher on the trails, let alone a naked one.

 

For those of you who are uncomfortable with this type of behaviour, then by all means contact your state legislators to ensure that this never happens again and people like Gary will be sent to jail and pay a fine. Instead of complaining on the boards

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Back on topic. A nude male hiking in the woods with no intent to harm anyone is no cause for alarm. I bet if it was a nice looking female you wouldn't complain.

 

El Diablo

That's downright ridiculous. It's one thing to walk around nude when you are guaranteed not to offend anyone, such as a nudist beach.

 

But when your doing that in a public area (woods) where you could appear in front of a bunch of 8 year olds on a hiking trip from the local Catholic Girls School, it's quite a different story. I find it quite disturbing that many find this normal activity.

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I'm not so sure we are truly a "free" country, as compared to some of the "repressed" or 3rd world countries. It seems like anyone who tries to exercise freedoms, are viewed as criminals, rebels, or malcontents.

 

I applaud those who stand for our freedoms!

 

Cache on!

Your freedom ends where mine begins. My freedom ends where yours begins. That is why murder is not allowed. You are not free to kill other people because you take away their freedom to live.

 

We are free in many senses, however when you try to infringe upon my freedoms we have an issue. I am free to walk in the woods and not be offended by seeing naked people running around. You are free to walk around naked in the woods as long as I nor anybody else sees you.

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I just hoped he washed his hands before signing the log.

-Also, one's freedom extends to the point where it infringes upon another's freedom. If I was caching with my children and found someone in the buff, I would call the cops. Maybe there is a difference (or should be) in being an Exabitionist and just practicing your beliefs. I am glad we have them freedom to practice what we believe in, I just don't think a public place was the proper place for this expression.

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But when your doing that in a public area (woods) where you could appear in front of a bunch of 8 year olds on a hiking trip from the local Catholic Girls School, it's quite a different story. I find it quite disturbing that many find this normal activity.

In 4 years of Geocaching I can't even think of the few occasions I have run into anyone, let alone a Geocacher while Geocaching. Very few people leave the playground. We are more to run into the local person who camps in the woods.

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I don't see Gary promoting his lifestyle in this thread, he was issued a citiation for while Geocaching and had it thrown out. This about the citiation, not his beliefs about naturalism.

:lol:;) You're right. We should be blaming the lawyers ... most likely, a lawyer wrote the language of the statute; other lawyers undoubtedly vetted it. One day, someone is arrested or receives a citation, and a clever defense attorney miraculously discovers loopholes, omissions, etc. in the statute that somehow escaped the attention of all the other lawyers. The case is dismissed on some technical issue. The public is outraged and demands that something be done. The cycle repeats, and the lawyers are happy and well-fed. :):)

Edited by Skovar
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I don't see Gary promoting his lifestyle in this thread, he was issued a citiation for while Geocaching and had it thrown out. This about the citiation, not his beliefs about naturalism.

:lol:;) You're right. We should be blaming the lawyers ... most likely, a lawyer wrote the language of the statute; other lawyers undoubtedly vetted it. One day, someone is arrested or receives a citation, and a clever defense attorney miraculously discovers loopholes, omissions, etc. in the statute that somehow escaped the attention of all the other lawyers. The case is dismissed on some technical issue. The public is outraged and demands that something be done. The cycle repeats, and the lawyers are happy and well-fed. :):)

The code at issue here had a pretty common drafting. I don't view anything in this case as a "loophole." Of course other codes with poor drafting might fit that description, but not this one. I view it as a pretty straightforward legal case involving normal (And rather easy/simple for an attorney) statutory/code interpretation. That is why the prosecutor dismissed. There was likely no case.

 

Also, the well fed lawyers are normally not the government attorneys and the defense attorneys. It is the big firm commercial lawyers. Trust me I know about being a poor lawyer (unfortunately). :)

 

Most important, when things are not drafted as you like, remember that they are done by elected officers. So you have the option to use your vote or speak up in the political arena if you have feelinga about a particular piece of legislation.

 

Please see previous posts in this thread for the standard disclaimer.....

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Actually, we're not judging anyone here, nudecacher is not guilty.

Really? Did you read some of the comments directed at ParrotRob? (I also think you need to re-read the OP: A dismissal does not mean an individual is "not guilty." Of course, the title of this thread appears to be an even more egregious misrepresentation.)...

Really. So you disagree with "innocent until proven guilty?" :lol:;):)

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I'm glad you won.

I'm glad too. Glad that I don't have a daughter that happened to be at the courthouse that day :lol:

Nudity is a SOCIAL mind set not a cart blanche mor across the world. Just because some people are PRUDES does not mean it is wrong.

 

cheers

Edited by AtoZ
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Nudity is a SOCIAL mind set not a cart blanche mor across the world. Just because your are PRUDES does not mean it is wrong.

 

cheers

But it is a social norm in this country to go into public places "appropriately dressed." That might mean anything from an Armani Tuxedo to nothing at all. I think that the point others have been trying to make is that expectation has been abused. Like I said before, if he does it when and where he has minimal probability of being seen by those who could potentially be offended, then he will be free to wear whatever he choses.

 

And since people are hanging on definitions here you might note that a prude is from the French word "prudefemme" meaning "good woman" or "a woman who shows or affects extreme modesty." Please note the word "woman" in the definition. Source: Merriam Webster Since nudecacher is obviously not a woman, and ParrotRob is probably not a woman, the word has no meaning in this topic.

 

This topic is actually quite fascinating: Ranging from the legal to the sociological aspects of it. While this topic has definately skewed from geocaching it is a very insightful look into the mores, values and norms across the country. :lol:

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Nudity is a SOCIAL mind set not a cart blanche mor across the world. Just because some people are PRUDES does not mean it is wrong.

 

cheers

prude

 

n : a person excessively concerned about propriety and decorum

 

I don't think you need to worry about the prudes. You need to worry about the "average" guy who beats the living daylights out of naked guy in public because they perceived the naked guy as a pervert....

 

Perception is everything, isn't it?

 

:lol:

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Yay for you Nudecacher! I have always enjoyed your clever use of props for the photos :lol:

Everytime you post a picture, someone might question their extreme reactions to nudity. So, besides being fun, you provide a possible change in someone's perspective.

Keep on caching!

 

P.S. I live in Washington state, and cache with my children(who would probably giggle if they saw a nudist).

Edited by dandylaurel
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As Nudecacher, I was cited for "indecent exposure" at the What's On Your List Today? cache by Half-Canadian and Scooter the Wonder Dog on August 9th.

While amused by your method of geocaching I've often wondered how long it'd be before this occurred. Since you had the pamphlet made I assume you were prepared for this.

 

I'm curious, have you been cited before? And if so, how often?

 

 

And for the record, if you wanna cache nude, go for it. And thanks for some of the most amusing log entries out there :lol:

Edited by wandererrob
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Maybe we could settle this with a best 2 out of 3 game of Paper, Rock, Scissors.

:lol:;)

 

ROFLMAO - and dressed

I would say to protect everyones rights in this Nude Cacher would be required to wear at least a pair of underpants to the said competition and then after that we would go with the winners decision, and it would be final.

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Most important, when things are not drafted as you like, remember that they are done by elected officers. So you have the option to use your vote or speak up in the political arena if you have feelinga about a particular piece of legislation.

Yes, but in my area, most of the elected officials are also lawyers. Just adds more layers of lawyers to the mix.

 

Also, the well fed lawyers are normally not the government attorneys and the defense attorneys. It is the big firm commercial lawyers. Trust me I know about being a poor lawyer.

 

I suppose you must mean "poorly paid." :lol: All fun aside, I suppose that depends to what one compares it. To Bill Gates? You're poor. To a minimum wage single mother of 4, you're rich beyond imagination.

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Actually, we're not judging anyone here, nudecacher is not guilty.

Really? Did you read some of the comments directed at ParrotRob? (I also think you need to re-read the OP: A dismissal does not mean an individual is "not guilty." Of course, the title of this thread appears to be an even more egregious misrepresentation.)...

Really. So you disagree with "innocent until proven guilty?" :D:lol:;)

A "presumption of innocence" is not the same as actually being innocent, is it? If you're not sure, ask O.J. ... :):):)

Edited by Skovar
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While amused by your method of geocaching I've often wondered how long it'd be before this occurred. Since you had the pamphlet made I assume you were prepared for this.

 

I'm curious, have you been cited before? And if so, how often?

Humm... I hadn't thought about making a supplement Nudecacher pamphlet. Actually, I hadn't ever needed it before. This was my first encounter with the law. I frequently explain geocaching and nudecacher to people that I meet, so that part was easy. Actually, it was easier to explain it to the officers because I could show them where the cache was hidden. One of the officers had heard about geocaching before. We also discussed the law aspect and he understood my point and told me that's what courts decide. We had a pleasant conversation and he wished me a good day as we parted.

 

Gary Young

Nudecacher

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From the Forum Guidelines:

 

Some things to keep in mind when posting:

 

Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.

 

Personal Attacks and Flames will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad, general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

 

Nudecacher started this thread as a way to help others who may be (or will be) in the same situation he was in. He did not start it to be mocked.

Thank you for stating this so eloquently. I agree. From all that I have seen (and yes, I have reviewed his picture gallery and logs), this all seems quite harmless and a matter of personal freedom. And obviousl,y thi s all fun for Nudecacher, or he would not be doing it. Personally, if I were planning to go nude or pose for a nude foto at a cache site (don't worry, I do not have any such plans!), I would simply make sure beforehand that the law seemed to allow nudity in that area, and would also make sure that no one might be around within line of sight who might be offended.

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The only thing I see disconcerting about this thread is the open approval from TPTB and the vigorous moderation. It looks like Groundspeak approves of geocaching naked.

 

Legal, not legal or gray area notwithstanding, it affects geocaching. Talk all you want about freedom and doing it out of view, point is he got caught naked in a public place while geocaching, now the two activities are related.

 

This could be used as a case against geocaching during a city council or neighborhood commitee meeting. "Look at this - they condone naked people doing it. Do we want a bunch of naked people running around finding caches?"

 

I have no problem with nudity, I've been to Hippy Hollow near Austin many times and don't care what anybody else does as long as it doesn't impact me. My objection here is relating nudity and geocaching. If I were TPTB I'd delete, bury and burn this topic and try to get all the archives deleted. This is going to come back to bite us.

B

Edited by av8ndv8
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The only thing I see disconcerting about this thread is the open approval from TPTB and the vigorous moderation. It looks like Groundspeak approves of geocaching naked.

 

Legal, not legal or gray area notwithstanding, it affects geocaching. Talk all you want about freedom and doing it out of view, point is he got caught naked in a public place while geocaching, now the two activities are related.

 

This could be used as a case against geocaching during a city council or neighborhood commitee meeting. "Look at this - they condone naked people doing it. Do we want a bunch of naked people running around finding caches?"

 

I have no problem with nudity, I've been to Hippy Hollow near Austin many times and don't care what anybody else does as long as it doesn't impact me. My objection here is relating nudity and geocaching. If I were TPTB I'd delete, bury and burn this topic and try to get all the archives deleted. This is going to come back to bite us.

B

Thanks for the advice. I'll get around to that after I delete all the threads about cemetery caches, all the threads which have posts saying that no permission is necessary to hide a geocache in a public park, etc.

 

Re-read the initial post. This is not a topic about whether or not nudecaching ought to be condoned, encouraged or discouraged. Subsequent posts have turned it into such a discussion. The moderator's efforts have focused on keeping that discussion within the boundaries of our Forum Guidelines. There's been no "open approval" of any position on the subject.

 

I now return you to the topic of discussing the legal issues raised in the OP.

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Just because someone had to steer the conversation in this direction. :lol:

 

God abhors nakedness when:

* It is forced upon a person against their will (as when captured as a prisoner)

* It is associated with a sinful act (as in Pagan worship of a golden calf or engaging in an orgy or temple prostitution)

* It means that the individual is lacking in basic needs to the extent that they are unprotected from the harsh elements, without shelter, food, and clothing 3

 

But God also used nakedness positively, in order to communicate the message of some of the Prophets more effectively.

 

There is no passage in the Bible that condemns public nudity. There appear to be none which condemns private nudity. There seem to be a number of passages that mention nudity in the presence of others as acceptable behavior. There also appears to be many instances in the history of the Christian Church where public nudity was a normal activity. We would conclude that naturism is not disallowed by the Bible, or by church tradition and that Christians should feel free to investigate naturism freely.

 

Pope John Paul II, while still a Polish Cardinal wrote: "Nakedness itself is not immodest... Immodesty is present only when nakedness plays a negative role with regard to the value of the person, when its aim is to arouse concupiscence, as a result of which the person is put in the position of an object for enjoyment."

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...A "presumption of innocence" is not the same as actually being innocent, is it?  If you're not sure, ask O.J. ...  :lol:  ;)  :)

 

In our system, guilty is very much cut and dry; if you're not declared (by a court) guilty, then you're innocent. I think your apparent presumption of guilt, as applied to nudecacher, is unfair.

 

The man has been caching this way for some time. He has never been arrested for caching nude until this case. That doesn't encourage me to presume that he is lucky; that clearly illustrates that he is careful about where he does this type of activity, and that he respects the rights of others.

 

Apparently he was even encouraged by the owner to find and log this cache nude. I think, without personal knowledge of this location and the other details involved, you are just displaying your bias in this case.

 

BTW, in case your presumed definitions of guilty and innocence are a bit fuzzy, nudecacher is innocent. :)

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I read through this thread and can't belive all the support people are giving for caching nude by a court house and other blatantly public areas. If you're 10 miles out in the middle of nowhere sure, fine, go for it. There's nothing wrong with that. When you're doing it in the middle of highly populated urban areas...

 

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Nudecacher as a person, but I hope that the police will continue to cite people who cache naked in public places (if there are even others). Even if they continually get dismissed the hassle alone might be enough to stop them from doing it. It may not be illegal, but that doesn't mean everyone has to support it.

 

I also don't see what's so wrong with ParrotRob's comments. They're his opinions and I give him respect for not sugar coating them. Remember what happened in "The Hangout Gang", Rob? Hopefully you'll get the refrence. :lol:

 

And that's my one and only post in this thread.

Edited by Vargseld? ™
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Re-read the initial post. This is not a topic about whether or not nudecaching ought to be condoned, encouraged or discouraged.

OK, let's play semantics..... What does discussing nudity laws have to do with geocaching? Wouldn't this have more relevance on a nudity forum or at least in the off-topic forum?

B

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Re-read the initial post.  This is not a topic about whether or not nudecaching ought to be condoned, encouraged or discouraged.

OK, let's play semantics..... What does discussing nudity laws have to do with geocaching? Wouldn't this have more relevance on a nudity forum or at least in the off-topic forum?

B

Let's not play semantics (since it is off topic).

 

The original poster asked permission to post this topic and was told yes. If it were to actually stay on topic, much of the angst in this topic would not be here.

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This could be used as a case against geocaching during a city council or neighborhood commitee meeting. "Look at this - they condone naked people doing it. Do we want a bunch of naked people running around finding caches?"

So out of 209,221 active accounts, we have ONE person who when he reaches the cache disrobes.

 

Believe me if local or state goverment wants to ban Geocaching they won't even need to use this, just take a look at what is happening in South Carolina(Someone Markwell that thread please.). If they want to ban it they will, because Geocaches might be mistaken for bombs, knives have been found in them, they were placed with out permission or they don't want to risk being legally liable.

 

I don't see how by TPTB by allowing this thread to be endorsing anything. This is a discussion amongst Geocachers and its not the first time things have gotten contenious.

Edited by magellan315
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Let's not play semantics (since it is off topic).

 

The original poster asked permission to post this topic and was told yes. If it were to actually stay on topic, much of the angst in this topic would not be here.

For us reeeaaallly slow on the uptake people, could you put the intended topic of this thread into small words and how it relates to geocaching?

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Let's not play semantics (since it is off topic).

 

The original poster asked permission to post this topic and was told yes.  If it were to actually stay on topic, much of the angst in this topic would not be here.

For us reeeaaallly slow on the uptake people, could you put the intended topic of this thread into small words and how it relates to geocaching?

 

From the OP:

Nudecacher seems to be a popular discussion topic in these forums and in the cache logs where I've been, so I'm starting this thread to discuss the legal implications of nude caching for those who are interested.

 

Looking at the Indiana law, it seems I’d be ok caching in the nude as long as I don’t (3) appears in a state of nudity with the intent to arouse the sexual desires of the person or another person:

 

SOURCE: IC 35-45-4-1; (03)HE1367.1.2. --> SECTION 2. IC 35-45-4-1, AS AMENDED BY P.L.121-2000, SECTION 1, IS AMENDED TO READ AS FOLLOWS [EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2003]: Sec. 1. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally, in a public place:

(1) engages in sexual intercourse;

 

(2) engages in deviate sexual conduct;

 

(3) appears in a state of nudity with the intent to arouse the sexual desires of the person or another person; or

 

(4) fondles the person's genitals or the genitals of another person;

commits public indecency, a Class A misdemeanor.

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And as for the relevance to Geocaching and the appropriateness for this forum - claiming that this thread is here "to help others who might find themselves in the same situation" is akin to my starting a thread about the best way to beat a speeding ticket and claiming it is on topic because I was speeding on the way to a cache site.

Except that speeding can kill. Nudity won't.

Very well then.

 

And as for the relevance to Geocaching and the appropriateness for this forum - claiming that this thread is here "to help others who might find themselves in the same situation" is akin to my starting a thread about the best way to beat a public intoxication citation and claiming it is on topic because I was getting hammered at a cache site.

This subject is very relevent to geocaching. I know of several other cachers who have admitted to caching nude. I believe that this is more common than you know. My husband and I have geocached in the nude. It is very good for us to know the ramifications of nudecaching, and what we may expect if one of us other nudecachers gets caught as well.

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Let's not play semantics (since it is off topic).

 

The original poster asked permission to post this topic and was told yes.  If it were to actually stay on topic, much of the angst in this topic would not be here.

For us reeeaaallly slow on the uptake people, could you put the intended topic of this thread into small words and how it relates to geocaching?

Have you read the previous page? THere is some discussion of this there. I don't think Mtn-Man was posting to get involved other than in a moderator role. Although I could be wrong on that. If so, he will let me know. :)

 

Oh and I am not going to get into that point much either except to say that my interest in the thread was the legal issue and how caching had an effect on the prima facie case. So my interest in it certainly had something to do with caching. Perhaps those who only see it as a discussion of nudity don't see it as about caching. I suppose the view/interest taken when reading affects a person's opinion on that.

Edited by carleenp
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I see.  So you would have no problem with, say, naked adult males hanging out around, say, your daughter's school?  I mean, after all, we were all born naked, eh?

 

Off topic, sure.  Certainly not a geocaching topic though, regardless of who ok'ed it.

 

Now you are taking my comment out of context. A nude male hanging around a school as you put it, would cause alarm.

 

Back on topic. A nude male hiking in the woods

333 Gilkey Street, Burlington, WA is hardly the middle of the woods. By his own admission he was a half block from the courthouse and visible from the building.

He did my cache in Bellevue while nude, a cache which everyone says is very exposed (!). I was very honored.

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Let's not play semantics (since it is off topic).

 

The original poster asked permission to post this topic and was told yes.  If it were to actually stay on topic, much of the angst in this topic would not be here.

For us reeeaaallly slow on the uptake people, could you put the intended topic of this thread into small words and how it relates to geocaching?

Nudecacher contacted Groundspeak for permission prior to posting the topic. Although 'nudecaching' may not directly be a "Geocaching Topic", this is a subject that has been of interest to a great deal of cachers so we made the decision to allow the topic.

 

Any comments on that decision are not relevant to this topic please choose to voice them elsewhere. You may email contact@Groundspeak.com.

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I have no problem with nudecacher. Im glad he had the case dismissed.

The links provided were insightful, and I learned something.

 

In our system, guilty is very much cut and dry; if you're not declared (by a court) guilty, then you're innocent.

 

Not quite true. I believe if your Not found Guilty(beyond a reasonable doubt) than you are simply Not Guilty.

 

The question isnt Guilty, or innocent- ITs guilty or Not Guilty based upon the facts presented.

 

IN any case

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From the Forum Guidelines:

 

Foul Language and obscene images will not be tolerated. This site is family friendly, and all posts and posters must respect the integrity of the site.

 

Also, this is another reminder to stay on-topic, which most of you are doing. If you have a problem with the thread, please skip it.

Family friend forums but NOT family friendly caches. I'm so glad I wasn't caching with my 8 year old daughter looking for this at the same time as nudecacher.

 

Maybe parents should rethink taking their children along caching. From the attitude of many posters it seems nudity in public is A-okay forgetting that some children may not be prepared to see naked adult men unexpectedly. Why are some patting this kind of behavior on the back?

In my experience, children only tend to be upset if the parent acts upset. If a parent makes a big deal, grabs the child and sheilds it, the child could be very upset, for a long time. But if the parents goes on like normal, and then patiently explains things to the child later (even if the parent says that they do not agree with the nude person), then it becomes a learning experience and not a hang-up for the child.

 

It's all up to the parent.

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I've read this thread three times and I'd be honored if nudecacher did one of my hides.

 

I'm not trying to debate the right or wrong of this, just the fact that it's presented as a main geocaching topic. It's not. It's compelling, it's interesting and it's fun but it's not a mainstream caching topic. It doesn't belong here and it shouldn't have the blessings of TPTB to be in the main geocaching forum.

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:) Boy nudecatcher, you sure have ticked off a lot of people who apparently have a lot of time to tell other folks how to live their lives.

I guess Thoreau hit it on the head when he said most people live lives of quiet desperation.

It is refreshing to see how many other folks think you have the right to expression as long as it is not physically harmful to others.

Keep doing what you want.

You certainly have my respect for the way you have protected your rights.

Too bad the lawyers have to make money off of something like this. :o

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In our system, guilty is very much cut and dry; if you're not declared (by a court) guilty, then you're innocent.

 

Not quite true. I believe if your Not found Guilty(beyond a reasonable doubt) than you are simply Not Guilty.

 

The question isnt Guilty, or innocent- ITs guilty or Not Guilty based upon the facts presented.

 

IN any case

Right. If you're guilty, you're guilty; if you're not guilty, you're presumed innocent. :o:)

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