New Geocache Idea... Is It Legal?

October 19, 2005

The title and description explain the idea, however is it legal? I was thinking of making a cache for music trade. It would be interesting to see what gets put in it and trade for something like "Joes faverites" and have no idea what you have until you are listening to it.

I think it would be a fun cache but even if it got approved would it be illegal?. Tell me what you think.

18.9k · October 19, 2005

Giving out copies of copyrighted music is ALWAYS illegal no matter how you do it.

October 19, 2005

I seem to recall this topic beign discussed somewhere. Trading actual commercial CDs would be fine... there is a cache near me that has that theme. However, copying CDs for anything other than personal use is still concidered to be illegal... even if you give it away for free. The old "mix tape" type sharing is done all the time, but that does not make it legal. It still violates the copyright. That being said, I doubt the FEDs will be staking out the cache looking for bootleggers.

October 19, 2005

I am going with mini cacher. If you are trading the actual CD and not the copy then it's legal, but otherwise it's not.

There is a similar cache around here that does it with Computer Program (although it asks for worthless programs) GCHFX9

However, I don't agree with mini cachers assesment that the music industry won't give it problems. It might be a small problem, but that hasn't stop them before.

I would just stick with legal CDs

October 19, 2005

What about a CD that I make from downloaded songs that I paid for per song? As long as the songs are paid for then you should be good. No? I guess this would have to work on the honor system that the music has been paid for.

October 19, 2005

If you pay for and download the songs, and then write them to CD to give AND then delete them from your computer so the only copy is on the CD, then it *MAY* be OK (but I really wouldn't want to fight that battle). Basically, the problem is if you burn a CD with copywrited music, the person who "owns" the music does not get paid for the copys you made and gave away.

Think of it this way: if you are part of a small band playing clubs around town, and the only way you're making music is by selling your official CDs, how would you feel if you found out somebody just burned 100 copies and gave them away free? Probably not that great, since you're not going to be able to sell the music to people that already have it.

On the other hand, if you ARE in a small local band (or know one), and own the rights to the CD, it MIGHT make some sense to make some "demo" CDs for people (with like 2-3 songs) to get your name out. By doing so, you'll get some people that wouldn't have known about your band to come and check it out AND you may sell a CD.

Basically, try to think of what you're doing in more tangible terms. Say you're an artist and painted a great picture that you want to sell, and some guy down the street buys one and then goes to Kinko's and makes copies to hand out to friends...that seem reasonable?

Celticwulf

ps. I just realized I argued against some free music, when I'm still annoyed at Metalica for killing Napster But then again, all of my arguments above are based on small bands that make money from music...not the record companies

(goes back to lurking for a bit)

October 19, 2005

However, copying CDs for anything other than personal use is still concidered to be illegal... even if you give it away for free. The old "mix tape" type sharing is done all the time, but that does not make it legal. It still violates the copyright. That being said, I doubt the FEDs will be staking out the cache looking for bootleggers.

True, but whenever some of us find an "illegal" CD in a cache, we remove it, destroy it, and toss it into the nearest garbage pail.

9.4k · October 19, 2005

The title and description explain the idea, however is it legal? I was thinking of making a cache for music trade. It would be interesting to see what gets put in it and trade for something like "Joes faverites" and have no idea what you have until you are listening to it.

You are explaining a Sneakernet. Depending on the copyright on the material it could be illegal. However sharing public domain music or sharing with permission is ok. Harvey Danger's latest album is a good example of something you could include in a cache. In fact, I would allow a Harvey Danger cache.

October 19, 2005

I've done similar, but not cds...I have a recipe exchange cache and I tried to do a book exchange cache, but it got stolen b'fore anyone found it...

October 19, 2005

I would imagine if the CD's you leave in the cache contain tracks downloaded exclusively from someplace like mp3.com's free tracks or some other site that allows for free downloading and distribution of the music would be okay. Copying music from copyrighted cd's and downloads (if you paid to download it, you can bet it's copyrighted) would not.

Although I did just get a mental image of some bigshot laywer for the RIAA in a suit & tie sitting & waiting in ambush 10 yards away from an ammo can in the middle of the woods for a cache owner to do a maintenance run....funny...

October 19, 2005

Sigh. I took the time to find earlier threads, and guidance on this issue straight from the horse's mouth. After doing all of this, and getting the links, and the message is posted, I see the "horse" responded already.

It is the thought that counts?

edit: the horse spoke

Edited October 19, 2005 by Jeep_Dog

October 19, 2005

...mental image of some bigshot laywer ... siitting & waiting in ambush...

My mental image is of some jerk laughing his donkey off because he just dropped a few CDs into the cache, which he has loaded up with viruses and trojans. Ha ha.

I wonder if I could launch a homemade CD with my clay pigeon trap? Fer sure it'll never make it into my computer unless I know and trust who made it.

9.5k · October 19, 2005

I seem to recall this topic beign discussed somewhere. Trading actual commercial CDs would be fine... there is a cache near me that has that theme. However, copying CDs for anything other than personal use is still concidered to be illegal... even if you give it away for free. The old "mix tape" type sharing is done all the time, but that does not make it legal. It still violates the copyright. That being said, I doubt the FEDs will be staking out the cache looking for bootleggers.

And nobody thought the RIAA would go after 14 year olds either.

Never say never.

October 19, 2005

This could turn Geocaching into another Napster. Fines and lawsuits. I say no. It is Illegal.

9.4k · October 19, 2005

Yeah. The RIAA's new tactic is going after sites that even hint at illegally sharing copyrighted works. That's a nasty path to go down.

October 19, 2005

If a horse keeps neighing at a bunch of geocachers on the forum, does he really make a sound?

(So much for oracles :blink: )

October 19, 2005

I seem to recall this topic beign discussed somewhere. Trading actual commercial CDs would be fine... there is a cache near me that has that theme. However, copying CDs for anything other than personal use is still concidered to be illegal... even if you give it away for free. The old "mix tape" type sharing is done all the time, but that does not make it legal. It still violates the copyright. That being said, I doubt the FEDs will be staking out the cache looking for bootleggers.

And nobody thought the RIAA would go after 14 year olds either.

Never say never.

And nobody thought the RIAA would find a way to make themselves look like bigger "tools" than they already were. :blink:

I never said "never"... I just doubt that they would. Its too much man power needed to sit at one infrequently visit spot and wait for someone who might have a bootleg mix cd on them when they visit. It is far easier to identify users via IP that have actually done something illegal... it can even be automated by machines. But it is illegal and should not be publicly condoned by TPTB.

copyright infringement is bad.. mmmkay

October 19, 2005

I considered placing a cache with music cds in it but after doing some research, you can copy any copyrighted material for your own personal use. However, if your buddy wants a copy, the only way for him to get the copy for himself is to come to your computer and burn the disk himself. You cannot make it for him as that is considered copyright infringement.

I can't imagine that anyone would be anal enough to enforce this policy in this case, but you know that everyone wants a piece of the pie and eventually somebody I'm sure would complain.

While I think that it's a great idea, personally I'm not willing to stick my neck out.

October 19, 2005

Is it illegal? yes

Should you do it anyway? definetly

9.5k · October 19, 2005

I considered placing a cache with music cds in it but after doing some research, you can copy any copyrighted material for your own personal use. However, if your buddy wants a copy, the only way for him to get the copy for himself is to come to your computer and burn the disk himself. You cannot make it for him as that is considered copyright infringement.

What kind of reasoning is that? It's still copyright infringement if he doesn't own a legal copy of it himself. It's that simple.

October 20, 2005

Copyright laws can be easily found at the BMI website. I offer the use of my computer to someone and have no control of what they copy from it. As long as I copy only for my personal use I am legal. It's no different than recording from a radio station or any other media.

Let's look at another scenerio. What if you wanted to put a cheap ipod full of music in your cache? Or for that matter, let someone use your computer to load their ipod. Are you still legal?

October 20, 2005

Let's look at another scenerio. What if you wanted to put a cheap ipod full of music in your cache? Or for that matter, let someone use your computer to load their ipod. Are you still legal?

The second that the copy is passed on to anyone else other than you, you are not legal.. unless you destroy all of your copies, which then in effect transfers ownership of the original to the person you passed it onto.

October 20, 2005

...I offer the use of my computer to someone and have no control of what they copy from it. As long as I copy only for my personal use I am legal...

Let's look at another scenerio. What if you wanted to put a cheap ipod full of music in your cache? Or for that matter, let someone use your computer to load their ipod. Are you still legal?

Resisting the strong urge to make obvious firearms analogies...

Must... go... wash... dishes...

Momma Marauder

Edit: to fix a double font - don't ya hate that!

Edited October 20, 2005 by Morgan's Marauders

October 20, 2005

Back on topic, technically, a cache like this, one that deals with specifically copied CD's shouldn't be approved. Cache content rules don't allow for anything "Illicit" or illegal. Giving away burnt cd's is definitely illegal.

My suggestion, specifically state that they need to be original cd's, not burnt copies. Then you would be good and legal.

9.5k · October 20, 2005

Copyright laws can be easily found at the BMI website. I offer the use of my computer to someone and have no control of what they copy from it. As long as I copy only for my personal use I am legal. It's no different than recording from a radio station or any other media.

Let's look at another scenerio. What if you wanted to put a cheap ipod full of music in your cache? Or for that matter, let someone use your computer to load their ipod. Are you still legal?

A skunk by any other name still stinks.

I think you'd better read that copyright infringement code. I have read it and to large extent, followed the Napster case because in a sense, as an IT manager, music stored on my servers was a close parallel.

You're shrugging your shoulders and saying you're not responsible for what the user did on your computer. Napster tried using this as their defense and that got their hands slapped but good. It happened on their network and it made them as culpable as if they were personally involved.

The only way you can possibly make your friend's actions legal from your system, is for you to destroy your copy and hand over your original. That includes wiping it off your computer's disk.

It's no different than recording from a radio station or any other media.

This I wanted to visit as a separate issue... Listen to your radio's broadcast very carefully sometime when they do their station identification. About half the time, there is a disclaimer that recording the program is illegal unless you have gained specific permission from them. I'm willing to bet you don't have it when you make your recordings. For every song they play, they pay a royalty. Everytime. They will want compensation if you tried gaining permission.

Copyright infringement isn't illegal if a copy of the art is used for research. In which case, full credit must be provided in the documentation. If the artist requests it and with demonstrable cause, you are obligated to remove the copy of the artwork in question. You can choose to fight the request, but the legal battle can become very costly with no recompensation to you.

October 21, 2005

I have one out there with the same concept,but not with coppies

Box of blues

2.2k · October 21, 2005

regarding the radio thing.... the bbc lets you "listen again" in that you can download the programmes onto a pda/ mp3 player to listen to it at your leisure.

interesting copyright issues i would think?

October 21, 2005

There is lots of free music out there for the legal taking. It took about 15 minutes of shaking the Google tree for these to fall...

Thousands of FREE Live Recordings. Most shows available in many different file formats. MP3, FLAC, etc.

http://www.archive.org/audio/etreelisting-browse.php

Direct Free music Downloads

http://music.download.com

http://www.gigatracks.com

http://www.epitonic.com

Free Music downloader and rater.

http://www.irateradio.com

Ohgr

9.5k · October 21, 2005

nobby.nobbs Posted on Oct 20 2005, 08:45 PM
regarding the radio thing.... the bbc lets you "listen again" in that you can download the programmes onto a pda/ mp3 player to listen to it at your leisure.

interesting copyright issues i would think?

Very interesting. As well as with everything else, there will always be exceptions.

ohgr Posted on Oct 20 2005, 09:51 PM
There is lots of free music out there for the legal taking. It took about 15 minutes of shaking the Google tree for these to fall...

Nice pointers. Thanks! I knew there were up and coming artists taking advantage of the copyright issue and providing their music for free downloads in the hopes you'll buy their music for more of the same.

1.1k · October 21, 2005

What about a CD that I make from downloaded songs that I paid for per song? As long as the songs are paid for then you should be good. No? I guess this would have to work on the honor system that the music has been paid for.

You do not OWN the song ever. You have a lisence to listen to it. So it is wroing nomatter what unless it is the orgional.

cheers

October 24, 2005

Let's look at another scenerio. What if you wanted to put a cheap ipod full of music in your cache? Or for that matter, let someone use your computer to load their ipod. Are you still legal?

The second that the copy is passed on to anyone else other than you, you are not legal.. unless you destroy all of your copies, which then in effect transfers ownership of the original to the person you passed it onto.

I have an idea! Let's do away with libraries and burn all our Beatles records. Read the laws. Very simple, go to BMI. com :lol:

October 24, 2005

If you're interested in copyright law, go to www.copyright.gov.

Relevent here:

Chapter 111

Sound Recordings and Music Videos

§ 1101. Unauthorized fixation and trafficking in sound recordings and music videos

(a) Unauthorized Acts. - Anyone who, without the consent of the performer or performers involved -

(3) distributes or offers to distribute, sells or offers to sell, rents or offers to rent, or traffics in any copy or phonorecord fixed as described in paragraph (1), regardless of whether the fixations occurred in the United States,

shall be subject to the remedies provided in sections 502 through 505, to the same extent as an infringer of copyright.

Simply put, if it aint yours, it aint yours to give away.

October 28, 2005

I would think any self recorded (bootleg) style that is authorized by the artist is ok for a cache.

A few well known artists that let you record their shows:

Grateful Dead

Moe.

Dave Matthews

....

List goes on. If you make a trading cache I see no problem with these style bootlegs.

9.4k · October 28, 2005

The very nature of the term bootlegs is that they are illegal. Keep it to "concert recordings" for the likes of Grateful Dead, Phish, and Dave Matthews Band.

9.5k · October 28, 2005

I have an idea! Let's do away with libraries and burn all our Beatles records. Read the laws. Very simple, go to BMI. com

Your logic is flawed.

Libraries... All the books and CDs, DVDs found there are legal copies of the work. And it is legal to lend the legal copy out. It is not legal to make a copy of the borrowed legal copy.

Beatles albums, again, legal copies. Making a copy to distribute to anybody is illegal. Making a copy on tape or CD for yourself is not.

I'm not sure how you're extrapolating BMI's efforts to protect artist's work by helping new artists with the copyrights of their work, but I'm fairly certain you're misreading the intent. That being said, I'm with Husker if you want to read the final say on copyright law which is not simple.

October 29, 2005

However, copying CDs for anything other than personal use is still concidered to be illegal... even if you give it away for free. The old "mix tape" type sharing is done all the time, but that does not make it legal. It still violates the copyright. That being said, I doubt the FEDs will be staking out the cache looking for bootleggers.

True, but whenever some of us find an "illegal" CD in a cache, we remove it, destroy it, and toss it into the nearest garbage pail.

I hope you know first that the CD is illegal. . .If I spent 5 bucks down loading my 5 fav songs (99cents a pop at comcast) on to a CD for this cache and you destroyed it thinking it was illegal you would just be destroying a valid trade item! So how do you know it is illegal? And who gave you permission to destroy them??

October 31, 2005

I hope you know first that the CD is illegal. . .If I spent 5 bucks down loading my 5 fav songs (99cents a pop at comcast) on to a CD for this cache and you destroyed it thinking it was illegal you would just be destroying a valid trade item! So how do you know it is illegal? And who gave you permission to destroy them??

I'll agree with the very first and last part... I would hope that someone finding a CD in a cache, would first verify the content before blindly destroying a valid cache trade item. I've been dropping CDs of geocaching related podcasts in caches, all of these with "global permission" to distribute. I'd hate for someone to go around destroying them, just because they thought they were illegal.

If the media content was purchased (in a store on CD, downloaded from iTunes, Comcast) it more than likely is not "free trade" material. A good rule of thumb: If the music (or whatever) was paid for (at any point), then it is not free to copy and distribute. You can make copies (say a compilation disc), or load them into an MP3 player, ect.

When you buy a cd, download, ect, you are not buying the music. You are buying an individual LICENSE to a copy of it. The music is still owned by the copyright holder (the band, record company, or whomever).

Radio stations have a license for public broadcast. This is different from the private license you get when you purchase a CD.

If you want, you CAN purchase the rights to make a compliation disc, and give/sell them. Then it is perfectly legal for you to do that.

I work in the music & production industry, and have worked in a recording studio environment. I have also attended formal schooling on such. Part of this training involved copyright law. With that said: I do *NOT* receive any royalties from any recordings. I have nothing to lose or gain from this topic. I *AM* bound by the same laws that every one else is.

For example: Unless I am working for someone who does have the public performance rights, I cannot play certain music as "walk in entertainment", because I do not hold a public performance license. Most clubs have such a license, as they have a jukebox.

I wont comment about how much I might "like" or "dislike" the whole thing. This is my understanding about how it works.

Edited October 31, 2005 by Crystal Sound

3.2k · October 31, 2005

I found a cache the other day with a pirated DVD of Napoleon Dynamite. Not only is it a totally illegal item to place in a cache it is utterly lacking in taste since that is one of the worst movies ever made.

November 1, 2005

It would be illegal.

When the gold spike was driven in the rail linking the east and west the pony express went out of business shortly there after. There was a better and more efficient way to deliver mail from one side of the country to the other.

With that said the RIAA is trying to keep an dead industry alive. With the ability to distribute music via the Internet pressing CDs and distribute them is no longer necessary. The RIAA is adding nothing to the process of a band making music and you listening to it except unnecessary cost. What they are doing is passing protectionist laws that are not in the best interest of the consumers or the bands they represent.

November 25, 2005

The title and description explain the idea, however is it legal? I was thinking of making a cache for music trade. It would be interesting to see what gets put in it and trade for something like "Joes faverites" and have no idea what you have until you are listening to it.

You are explaining a Sneakernet. Depending on the copyright on the material it could be illegal. However sharing public domain music or sharing with permission is ok. Harvey Danger's latest album is a good example of something you could include in a cache. In fact, I would allow a Harvey Danger cache.

For those who were following this thread I thought I'd let you know that I went ahead and submitted a Harvey Danger cache. Wine, Women & Song was approved without challenge or question the same day I submitted it. Do yourself a favor and treat yourself to this band's most enjoyable new release.

peace

fishiam

New Geocache Idea... Is It Legal?

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