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Is It Ok For Cache Owners To Delete Logs?


dorkfish
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Do cache owners have the right to delete log posts on the geocaching website just because they don’t like the person who visited their cache? Here’s a very brief description of what happened.

 

A friend of mine noticed that a cacher he met awhile ago was monitoring his geocaching activities. A couple of times my friend logged a few travel bugs and shortly afterwards this guy would email him to see if he could get it or how he got the number to log it. A few days ago we were looking for virtual geocoins to log. I found a Maryland geocoin that mentioned nothing in the title about being a virtual but on the description page it said she would send the tracking number if you emailed her. I put the coin on my watchlist and emailed the owner. She emailed me back a bunch of tracking numbers for some coins she owned, which I thought was very nice. I logged the coins & instantly put them back in the cache they came out of. Two days later I get notified through the watchlist that this guy had logged the Maryland coin. The only way he could have ever know about the coin is if he was monitoring our activity. I was a bit annoyed and creeped out that someone was watching us so closely. I’ve never met the guy or spoke with him whatsoever and I found it disturbing that he was watching us so closely.

 

A few more things have happened since, I won’t bore you with the details, which prompted my friend to email the guy and ask him to quit monitoring our activity among other things. Of course he denied he was watching us, used a few swear words to describe us, told us that he was one of the reasons geocaching was even around, and since we were relatively new to the sport we were basically nothing. He then went and looked at all the caches we had ever done and any that were his, or ones he’d adopted from other members, and deleted the log posts. So now it shows we’ve never even done these caches.

 

We did these caches before even knowing of the guy. One of them was even done before it was adopted by him. Since any cache he adopts he turns into a premium membership and my friend does not have a premium membership we know it was beforehand. So does he have the right to do this? I know physically he is capable of it, but is it right ethically. Does geocaching.com feel that this behavior is ok? Is there anything that can be done? This guy has found over 1000 travel bugs, that’s his claim to fame, I don’t think he would like it if owners deleted his posts and made his travel bug numbers go down.

 

Any advise is greatly welcome, and if you’d like to know the full story let me know. :o

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Sounds like he's a first class rear end to me :o , I'd hate to be in his shoes if he showed his face in these forums. B)

 

<snip>

 

I hope you get some answers here, and I hope even more that the jerk in question sees them. :DB)

 

<edit for misread question, deleted answer.>

Edited by Airmapper
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He has the right as the cache owner to delete the logs, wether it's right or not. I don't think it's right, but that's my opinion.

 

I have a question for you. Why would you email someone for tracking numbers to TBs and log them if you never actually found them? Once again in my opinion that's not right. You either found the TB or you didn't.

 

As far as the other guy logging the TB after you did...he probably did the same thing and emailed the owner for the number. I doubt he was watching what you were doing.

 

Personally I think you are seeing shadows in the dark. This is a game we play for fun, treat it as so and you will have much less anxiety. Once again, just my opinion.

 

El Diablo

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We did these caches before even knowing of the guy. One of them was even done before it was adopted by him. Since any cache he adopts he turns into a premium membership and my friend does not have a premium membership we know it was beforehand. So does he have the right to do this? I know physically he is capable of it, but is it right ethically. Does geocaching.com feel that this behavior is ok? Is there anything that can be done? This guy has found over 1000 travel bugs, that’s his claim to fame, I don’t think he would like it if owners deleted his posts and made his travel bug numbers go down.

Actually it would be possiable for your friend to log those MOCs without being a 'premium' member, but thats not really important.

 

Cacher owners have the ability to delete logs. Normally this is supposed to be because the log violates something, either in general (swearing or faked logs) or specifically to the cache (like huge spoilers the owner doesn't want), but not because they don't like you... I think you've somehow, pissed this person off and should just avoid contact with them. (do log their caches, and don't email them, and don't respond if they email you). I can't think of any above board things to do to them, so just leave it alone and maybe they'll grow up.

 

I agree with El Diablo. From what you said about him asking where you got some TB numbers, it sounds like you, your friend, and this other person are all after the various coin icons. If the icon showed up he probably just went looking for it and it wasn't related to had it last at all.

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Well, first, let me say that I just "don't get" the whole virtual travel bug and virtual geocoin thing, nor do I "get" the behavior of cachers (and this is a phenomenon which I am seeing more and more) who file a log for a cache which they have never found (and they have never been within 5,000 miles of the cache) just so they can log "travel bug virtual miles" by logging the TB in and out.

 

Anyway, having said that, my own personal opinion is that what that cache owner did to your finds (and those of your buddy) was not kind and not fair. On the other hand, he is the cache owner, and he can do as he wishes with his cache listings. On the other hand, I must also point out that there could be many reasons why (and how) that cache owner might be stumbling upon the same TBs and coins as you without monitoring your caching behavior specifically. One possibility: perhaps he scans for all local TB and coin activity within a 40 mile radius of his home and tries to get in on the action.

 

Personally, much as an earlier poster wrote, I feel that you may be seeing shadows in the dark, or "tilting at windmills." In any case, I could understand that the cacher may have been rather disconcerted and caught off-guard when your buddy called, and may have understandably gotten defensive and even pissy. If I were in your shoes, and in your buddy's shoes, I would make a very large and sincere effort going forward to never again call (or write) any cacher and make such accusations. Period. That is what I would do; I am not lecturing you nor trying to tell you what to do. However, that caveat alone will likely prevent your ever again having to witness an irritated cache owner deleting your logs. My sense is that a bit of diplomacy and a bit of compassion and understanding can go a long way toward preventing such events.

 

In any case, allow me to remind you that this was a very minor incident in your life; you will not remember it five years from now as a significant thing. Were it I, I would leave it behind and move on, and have fun caching!

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No, it's not.

 

You signed the log; it is a find. Period. IMO, cache owners who behave this way should have all their hides archived and not be allowed to list new caches on the site. They have shown themselves incapable of assuming the responsibility of being a cache owner.

 

What I find even more disturbing is the attitude of previous posters, who appear to think that this kind of behavior is OK. :o

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Well, first, let me say that I just "don't get" the whole virtual travel bug and virtual geocoin thing, nor do I "get" the behavior of cachers (and this is a phenomenon which I am seeing more and more) who file a log for a cache which they have never found (and they have never been within 5,000 miles of the cache) just so they can log "travel bug virtual miles" by logging the TB in and out.

 

I don’t understand why people virtually log TBs seems like they are just doing it to boost there numbers. I thought it wasn’t about the numbers but it seems like some people are all about the numbers. Kinda takes the fun out of the game. :o

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Assuming your story is accurate (no offense, but they aren't always. No kidding! :o ) sounds like the guy is a knucklehead. But I'd just put all his caches on ignore and...cache around him. Gaming against a knucklehead can have a unforseen and unwanted outcomes. Who can predict the ways of the knucklehead?

 

For the record, though, deleting logs is a very bad thing, unless the owner has an excellent reason. Those of us who make a silly fuss about landmark caches can get seriously cheesed.

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I don’t understand why people virtually log TBs seems like they are just doing it to boost there numbers. I thought it wasn’t about the numbers but it seems like some people are all about the numbers. Kinda takes the fun out of the game. :o

More accurately, it's not all about the numbers; with a slew of new coin types recently added to the site, lately it's become all about the icons! B)

 

To stay on topic: No, it's not okay. The cacher found the caches in question, signed the physical logbook, and fulfilled all of the logging requirements as outlined on the cache page (i.e. no posting spoiler photos). That's a find. Maybe I'll go through my caches and delete the logs of everybody who's username contains a number, or who logged my cache on a Friday the 13th, or who logged a DNF on another one of my caches, just because I have the ability to do so. :D

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Gaming against a knucklehead can have a unforseen and unwanted outcomes. Who can predict the ways of the knucklehead?                (I edited for brevity)

Good advice here. How much effort are you willing to put into acts of stupidity to fight with someone who will most assuredly expend more effort than you? Your choice to make. "Caching around" the dope is the logical thing to do.

 

And always forgive your enemies, if only because it ticks them off.

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More accurately, it's not all about the numbers; with a slew of new coin types recently added to the site, lately it's become all about the icons! :D

.:o hmmm I took a look at a few people profiles and noticed that they log these "virtual" coins/TBs for the numbers and icons (as DavidMac pointed out). Seems to me this is pointless so you saw a picture of a Geocoin or TB and listed it I've seen pictures/spoilers of caches...I don't log these as finds.

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No, it's not.

 

You signed the log; it is a find. Period. IMO, cache owners who behave this way should have all their hides archived and not be allowed to list new caches on the site. They have shown themselves incapable of assuming the responsibility of being a cache owner.

 

What I find even more disturbing is the attitude of previous posters, who appear to think that this kind of behavior is OK. :o

I don't think the behavior is ok, I think the cacher deleting logs sounds like a jerk.

 

I responded to the original question answering that the cache owner is allowed to do what they wish with their caches, if you don't like it, don't seek their hides.

 

There are caches I have not searched for because of stupid rules associated with them. If I found them, signed the log, and traded, but did not follow the stupid rule the owner could/would delete my find...I don't play that way, so I avoid those caches.

 

The OP should just avoid the caches owned by that hider, and enjoy geocaching.

 

nfa-jamie

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No, it's not.

 

You signed the log; it is a find. Period. IMO, cache owners who behave this way should have all their hides archived and not be allowed to list new caches on the site. They have shown themselves incapable of assuming the responsibility of being a cache owner.

 

What I find even more disturbing is the attitude of previous posters, who appear to think that this kind of behavior is OK. :o

I don't believe anyone said it was ok to delete his logs. I believe people were saying it wasn't right to log a TB that you have never found. If you are going to log TBs that you have never found...you might as well log caches you never found. What's the difference?

 

Also...why have a virtual TB that has never left your possesion? The purpose of TBs are to travel (Travel Bug) get it?

 

El Diablo

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Is It Ok For Cache Owners To Delete Logs?, just because they don't like the person?

 

I would say it's borderline ethical - kinda like logging a travel bug you've never laid eyes on, much less had, by getting the number via email, ya know?

I don't think its boarderline ethical at all. It is unacceptable. If the guy is deleting logs because of a "spat", it is incredibly petty, small and spiteful.

 

people who use the cache logs to settle a score are jerks, plain and simple.

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I have never had the need to, and don't anticipate it, but I would opt to edit an unacceptable log (swearing or spoiler) remove the unwanted material, and leave the find on there. If you signed to log, you were there, no two ways about it.

ah, but thats not an option for the cache owner. They can't edit logs, or remove specific pictures. Only encrypt the text or delete the whole log.

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Is It Ok For Cache Owners To Delete Logs?, just because they don't like the person?

 

I would say it's borderline ethical - kinda like logging a travel bug you've never laid eyes on, much less had, by getting the number via email, ya know?

I don't think its boarderline ethical at all. It is unacceptable. If the guy is deleting logs because of a "spat", it is incredibly petty, small and spiteful.

 

people who use the cache logs to settle a score are jerks, plain and simple.

You're right - I was being generous. My point was that I don't think logging unseen TB's is right, either.

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A personal disagreement over something is one thing, deleting logs over the disagreement is another.

 

I personally think you guys should of not said anything when you thought someone was watching your logs. If you hadn't you would be here now. However you did and you are.

 

So that leaves the knucklehead theory. Put all their caches on your ignore list and get on with the game....

 

I've figured out who. This cacher has threatened to adust my attitude for me if we ever met on the trail. Auntie Weasel is right. Email sent.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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Is It Ok For Cache Owners To Delete Logs?

 

You know what? Who gives a darn? Do people geocache in order to receive the stupid smiley face or to enjoy the experience and associated memories?

 

Keep a personal diary of your finds, thoughts, and memories, or, if you're more high-tech, a personal database ... perhaps even a geocaching "blog," if you believe the rest of us simply can't live without experiencing your caching adventures vicariously.

Edited by Skovar
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  Do people geocache in order to receive the stupid smiley face or to enjoy the experience and associated memories?

 

Both obviously. Why else would anyone that uses gc.com log a find?

 

Otherwise, why bother logging online at all?

 

I think logging a find (or dnf) allows others to share your progress. I enjoy reading the log entries. At the cache, I don't have time to view all the logbook entries. At home, I can take my time and browse.

 

IRT the original thread, it's shaky ground making assumptions and sending an email based on the assumption.

That person was either PO'd because you were way off track or hit the nail on the head. BUT, it was childish to delete the logs.

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  Do people geocache in order to receive the stupid smiley face or to enjoy the experience and associated memories?

 

Both obviously. Why else would anyone that uses gc.com log a find?

People have used the various types of logs available on cache pages for a multitude of reasons and agendas.

 

Otherwise, why bother logging online at all?

 

Precisely; why bother? Judging from what I've read both in these forums and in cache logs, it appears that most cache owners happily allow just about anyone to log just about anything to their caches, regardless of whether the 'logger' actually found (or even attempted to find) the cache.

 

If one needs to report a problem or issue to the cache owner, it can be done just as easily via e-mail ... I think the current notion that an online log is required in order to show gratitude to the cache owner is misguided; it very well may be the primary reason that logbooks are no longer a joy to read and/or have largely been replaced by "logsheets" where one merely "signs in."

 

At the cache, I don't have time to view all the logbook entries.  At home, I can take my time and browse.

 

My, how times change! As I alluded to above, one of the greatest pleasures of the caching experience used to be opening up the logbook and reading the stories it contained. (Sometimes, the most interesting parts were unwritten: Look at that handwriting! Man, that guy was in shock! ... Look how that guy's log is smeared from his sweat, after he climbed up to the cache on a 100 degree day! ... Look! That guy didn't have a pen, so he signed the log with a mud-dipped twig ... and that guy signed with the ashes from his cigar! .... Oh, look! That guy's dog left a muddy paw print in the logbook! ... And sometimes, the best part was written, but must be read firsthand in order to properly be "shared": Hey, that guy left a marriage proposal to his girfriend in the logbook; she found the cache a few days later, read his log and left her response: YES!)

 

I've personally witnessed every one of the preceding situations/events in logbooks. Those are shared experiences; merely reading about them in online logs are not.

 

How sad that these days, most everyone is so busy running from cache to cache in order to sign in and earn that smiley, that there is no time left to savor the experience at-hand.

Edited by Skovar
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My, how times change!  As I alluded to above, one of the greatest pleasures of the caching experience used to be opening up the logbook and reading the stories it contained.  (Sometimes, the most interesting parts were unwritten:  Look at that handwriting!  Man, that guy was in shock! ... Look how that guy's log is smeared from his sweat, after he climbed up to the cache on a 100 degree day!  ... Look!  That guy didn't have a pen, so he signed the log with a mud-dipped twig ... and that guy signed with the ashes from his cigar! .... Oh, look!  That guy's dog left a muddy paw print in the logbook! ... And sometimes, the best part was written, but must be read firsthand in order to properly be "shared":  Hey, that guy left a marriage proposal to his girfriend in the logbook; she found the cache a few days later, read his log and left her response:  YES!)

 

I've personally witnessed every one of the preceding situations/events in logbooks...

You have witnessed all that in three caches? ;):blink:

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Actually it would be possiable for your friend to log those MOCs without being a 'premium' member, but thats not really important.

True, the non-PM person can use the URL given below to access the logging page of any MOC. Simply change the GC code at the end of the URL to that of the MOC in question.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?WP=GCHMNV

I tried it and sure enough I can create a log entry for a PMO cache, at least I seem to be able since I have no way to confirm that it actually shows up. But just for the record, Follow That Bug does not appear to be a PMO. But then I guess you knew that and I didn't... ;)

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I have a question for you. Why would you email someone for tracking numbers to TBs and log them if you never actually found them? Once again in my opinion that's not right. You either found the TB or you didn't.

 

Our family has some TB's that are competing with each other for miles. One is currently in Hawaii, one in England, and one in a disabled cache in Wenatchee Washington. We noticed activity on our daughter's TB in Wenatchee and she was excited that it had finally come out of hiding and might be traveling. Unfortunately, we soon realized that the tracking numbers had been logged but the TB had never moved.

 

We figured this out because we have personally visited the Wenatchee cache site and the cache is not there - it is physically missing. Our other clue was that our TB in Hawaii had been logged on the same date by the same people. We deleted the log on our daughter's TB, left the log on our TB in Hawaii, and emailed the people for clarification. We never heard back from them, but did notice that they had deleted their log for our TB in Hawaii.

 

That being said, I don't agree with just deleting logs from caches you have found. I think there needs to be good reason. We had a cache where a finder had written a questionable word in their log. Another cacher asked us to change it. We emailed the finder and they immediately changed the wording and left an apology.

 

This is just a game. Things get heated - but it is a GAME. Rembember that and just go out and have fun.

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yes, it is easy to identify the cacher DF is talking about, he logs many caches just after DF does. this is just creeeepy. XXXXXXXXX is wrong to delete finds just based on an ongoing feud, but i agree this looks like someone best avoided. there's nothing DF can do about either XXXXXXXXX's logging habits or deleting practices. i would be looking over my shoulder when caching though, not knowing if this person was actually visiting the caches just after i do, or simply logging virtually. either way, it's weird. it may be a little difficult for DF to completely enjoy caching as a relaxing hobby with an internet stalker.

also, I did not miss the part of the OP that states XXXXXXXXX made the first contact to get TB numbers from DF's friend. good luck with this, DF, it's a weird situation, and i hope you're a male if you cache alone.

Edited by denali7
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You have witnessed all that in three caches?  :blink:  :lol:

I refer you to the paragraphs preceding the excerpt you used. Specifically:

Precisely; why bother?

and:

If one needs to report a problem or issue to the cache owner, it can be done just as easily via e-mail

 

Got it? :lol:;)

Yeah, I got it; since you don't log your finds online, you don't give a rat's ash about a problem that could affect many people who enjoy online logging. It's kind of a NIMBY attitude. ;):blink:

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No, it's not.

 

You signed the log; it is a find. Period. IMO, cache owners who behave this way should have all their hides archived and not be allowed to list new caches on the site. They have shown themselves incapable of assuming the responsibility of being a cache owner.

 

What I find even more disturbing is the attitude of previous posters, who appear to think that this kind of behavior is OK. ;)

Hear hear!

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I

put the coin on my watchlist and emailed the owner. She emailed me back a bunch of tracking numbers for some coins she owned, which I thought was very nice. I logged the coins & instantly put them back in the cache they came out of.

Well, the coins were never found, so they should not be logged as being found.

If some one sere to ask me found the tracking number of one of my TB or coins I would preety much tell them to drop dead.

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I tried it and sure enough I can create a log entry for a PMO cache, at least I seem to be able since I have no way to confirm that it actually shows up. But just for the record, Follow That Bug does not appear to be a PMO. But then I guess you knew that and I didn't... ;)

Yes, your test submission of a log note for my Psycho Urban Cache #6, which is a PMO, was successful! I am able to read the log.

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... you don't give a rat's ash about a problem that could affect many people who enjoy online logging.  It's kind of a NIMBY attitude.

Is that what I said? No; not at all. I agree that legitimate logs should not be deleted by cache owners, but if such a thing does occur, it's no big deal. Life goes on, and you still have the memories of your experience to savor. Anyone else's potential enjoyment of the (deleted) online log does not fit into the equation. Your totally inappropriate response is clearly just another one of your desperate attempts to create controversy. Ho-hum.

Edited by Skovar
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Some things to keep in mind when posting:

 

Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.

 

Personal Attacks and Flames will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad, general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

 

Private Discussions: Sometimes, a discussion thread strays off into a friendly dialogue or a heated debate among a very small number of users. For these exchanges, use the private discussion feature that is provided through the Groundspeak forums, or the Geocaching.com e-mail system. Public forum posts should be reserved for matters of interest to the general community.

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So that leaves the knucklehead theory.  Put all their caches on your ignore list and get on with the game....

 

or you can create some caches near the cacher whos bothering you and then when they log a find delete it.... ;):blink: jking (or am I)

Edited by Utsman
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If some doorknob deleted your legitimate finds, just log finds on one of your own archived caches, noting the date and the cache that you're recording the find for. Perhaps the reason why you're recording a find for another cache on one of your own archived caches.

 

My opinion on Virtual TBS and Geocoins. Don't we have enough losers in the world already? Now we need people who pretend their TBs have actually moved off their desks? What kind of thrill is it to PRETEND that your TB visited the arctic, when it's actually been sitting next to that Mountain Dew can on your desk for the past week?

Edited by dogbreathcanada
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Hmmm, there are two sides to every story.

 

It took me about 3 minutes to figure out who this thread was about by the OPs clues.

 

Deleting your finds crosses the line of good taste in a spat as many others have stated, but it leads me to wonder, also from the OP, what sort of accusatory language (if any) may have been used in your inquirey about this person watching you to possibly cause such a severe reaction.

 

It's not what you say, so much as how you say it.

 

Without knowing both sides, who's to judge anything other than bad taste.

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