Ya ''what Mark Is This?'' P

[foxtrot_xray]

I think we should have a forum just for ''what mark is this'' posts..

Kidding.

 

Anyways, my folks call me up a few days ago, all so happy, exclaiming, "We found two benchmarks! Our first two!" and send me the pictures.

 

Of course, they don't give me any concrete evidence on WHERE they found them. One really WAS a benchmark (HN0527) - but the other.. I'm having trouble finding. My dad described its location as:

The one on the post is really strange. Any hiker would trip over it so it's commonly seen. But it's a half mile from the nearest road on a trail to Hickman arch. The trail leaves Utah highway 24 just east of the visitor center at Capitol Reef Nat'l Park. The close-up belongs to that one.

Now, I did a search in several map software, and THINK I got the general location ("Hickman Trail" in the Capitol Reef NP), however, searching for it on the NGS provides no information. (Doing a search on the Long/Lat from the trailhead finds two within two miles, ''JN0329'' which is not valid, says it's missing a description, and ''JN0166''. The later doesn't have it down a trail, as my Dad said it was.

 

Now, I realize that ''Hey, it's not a real benchmark, or it's from a local authority''. However, take a look at it:

It had a date hard-stamped into it, '1947', and has "US General Land Office Survey". It's also on a mounting I've never seen before.

 

Anyone shed me a little light on it? I asked for more details onto where he actually found it, and will share if he's able to give me any more useful data.

 

Cheers,

Fox.

[Z15]

Its a section corner, more precisely the 1/4 section corner common to sections 1 and 13. 1/2 mile from the section corners North and South.

 

A section of land is 1 mile square with section corners at all 4 corners, the 1/2 corners are 1/2 between the section corners and divide the 1 mile sq section in quarters, hence the 1/2 corner.

 

this drawing below is typical

 

Edited October 5, 2005 by Z15

[foxtrot_xray]

Ah, interesting. That would explain it. With a little research, found the park was.. er.. parked? in 1947. And since it's a national park, that's why it has 'US' on it.

 

Kosher, many thanks. I've seen section markers before, never with a 'US' stapmed on it tho; that's what threw me.

 

Thanks!

Fox.

[Z15]

Here is a SITE with lots of info on the GLO

[+jwahl]

The GLO or General Land Office actually was the agency responsible for the surveying of almost all of the original public domain of the United States. That is about everything from Ohio West excepting in large part Kentucky and Tennessee, but including Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, etc. In 1946 the GLO was combined with the U.S. Grazing service and became the Bureau of Land Management in the Department of the Interior (BLM). The remaining survey and records keeping functions are now carried on by that agency.

 

Iron post monuments were used by GLO from about 1908 to their reorganization into the BLM in 1946. That standard form was a 1 inch pipe with a brass cap as shown here, used primarly on 1/4 section corners and other minor corners. Section corners are a 2 inch iron post, and township corners a 3 in. iron post. All concrete filled, and those things are heavy.

 

When the BLM came along, the post was redesigned and is now a 2.5 in. diameter iron pipe with a brass cap. In the last 15 years aluminum, and stainless steel have also been used.

 

However most of that public domain had been surveyed and sold (patented) to individuals or states well before 1908, and so were marked with posts or marked stone monuments. Anything with an iron post has probably been a resurvey of land done for some federal interest, such as US Forest Service, Park Service, etc. but may be found marking lines which are now between private individuals.

 

A resurvey is a re-establishment of the original survey using all the available evidence and record of the previous survey. The description of these surveys is found in documents called field notes, and the parcels involved are shown on survey plats that are kept in the particular juridictions BLM office.

 

Usually on rock, a tablet with about a 3 in. stem would have been set in a drill hole. In this case, perhaps they were out of tablets or didn't have one along with them at the time and decided to use a cut off pipe monument instead. Slightly unusual, but people make do with what they have.

 

Another interesting thing is that this one is 1947, so right after the GLO ceased to exist by that name and they were probably using up stockpiles of GLO monuments. I do not know the exact dates that BLM marked monuments were first used though.

 

Anyway BLM is who I work for.

 

- jerry wahl

Edited October 9, 2005 by jwahl

[Z15]

fyi

 

BLM had done resurveys in the recent past up here in the U P of Michigan on Indian Land. I have recovered some of those corners.

 

But I will say this, they sure po'd a lot of local officals and surveyors by placing thier own corners of which a good deal have been disputed. Now there are double corners in many areas and that has lead to property disputes on untold magnitude. I worked for the DOT (till I retired in 2002) and in recovering these corners for a project, I had to listen to adjacent property owners vent thier frustrations on argance of the BLM surveyors that were here in the 1980's, one I recall lost about 30 ft of frontage, because BLM moved the corner from center of road to approx 30 ft East of it, the long standing road was now on his property, meets and bounds description. We also had problems with corner ties to the US HWy Route that was surveyed in the 1930's using found GLO corners that no longer jive with the new BLM corners, of course BLM never considered that Hwy plans as a lawful record.

 

Many private surveyors want nothing to do with any surveys that border what the BLM did because of the mess. It was such a mess it delayed the hwy project over 2 yrs.

Edited October 9, 2005 by Z15

[Bill93]

Undoubtedly the result of policy made by political appointees and professional administrators, who never had real land survey experience. We've lost sight of the old truth that the boss needs to know how to do the job in order to set policy and supervise those doing the work.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Undoubtedly the result of policy made by political appointees and professional administrators, who never had real land survey experience.  We've lost sight of the old truth that the boss needs to know how to do the job in order to set policy and supervise those doing the work.

That says alot.

I have just learned to live with it.

You can fight all you want to over it spend !000's of $$$$.

And still get no where.

 

It is a great undertaking to learn all there is to know about how this was to be done.

Starting with Ole Thomas Jefferson.

Initial Points

Townships,Sections and Ranges.

 

[big space]

 

To the present Law.

 

There is mistakes in all of it somewhere.

But we can at least talk,learn and communicate these things in this modern day.

Without the modern technologies we would not have learned of it.

 

I myself do not think that ,they thought we would explore in depth these matters when the systems were designed.

 

But We Americans here explore and want to get the depth,height and breadth of the whole,and go to extremes.

 

I appreciate each one of you and your individual knowledges.

Without it we would not be this far.

 

The President,

is who I Volunteer for.

Edited October 10, 2005 by GEO*Trailblazer 1

[Wintertime]

Now, I did a search in several map software, and THINK I got the general location ("Hickman Trail" in the Capitol Reef NP), however, searching for it on the NGS provides no information.

Now, I realize that ''Hey, it's not a real benchmark, or it's from a local authority''.

 

Fox, am I reading your posting right that you think a benchmark that isn't in the NGS database is either "not a real benchmark" or is real but was monumented by a local agency? There are thousands upon thousands of benchmarks monumented by federal agencies that aren't in the NGS database. Some of them may not meet NGS's requirements for listing, while others probably simply were never submitted to NGS. But they're still very real!

 

For example, many of my recoveries in Yosemite National Park over the past couple of years don't have NGS PIDs, but they're useful benchmarks and I've been filing recovery reports on them with the USGS.

 

Patty