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I Hate Rules As Much As The Next Guy, But...


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I Hate Rules As Much As The Next Guy, But..., Newbies should have to pass a test.

That's a BIG but, Septictank. I agree in principal to the spirit of your post and judging by the response, it is forum-worthy. As an educator, geocacher and iconoclast I don't think testing is the answer. Our schoolkids are tested to death since NCLB and it's a joke. The road to hell is paved with good . . . tests.

 

There is a self-limiting tool built in to our sport, a sort of Geocaching Darwinism, where the crummy caches eventually go away and the outstanding ones flourish. There's a survival of the fittest amongst caches. We've all been to caches that don't meet our personal standards, but hey! They're caches! Better than nothing, right? Passing along your standards (like DNA) happens in the logs when you report to the community thumbs up/thumbs down. This sport has evolved and will continue to because it was intelligently designed with this self-correcting, changable, adaptable fluidity built in. The game IS the test. No need for more layers of bureaucracy.

 

One question: What does a reasonable, fair, equitable, reliable passing assessment look like?

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I think if we are going to implement a test lets really go for it. Make a test that one has to pass before finding a cache. There is obviously many problems in this area also, I read about it on the forums all the time.

 

For example, trade even or up. Rehide the cache as you found it. Do not move the cache to another location, even though you think it's a better hide. Don't put knives in the cache. Don't put food in a cache. Log tbs into a cache. Log tbs out of the cache. Post a note or email the owner when a cache needs attention. Don't hunt a high-muggle cache if it will compromise the cache. And last but not least, always remember the ammo can is not a trade item. :laughing:

 

I have an idea. I think almost everyone would take a voluntary test if you gave them an icon for it!! Maybe a little diploma or a graduate cap :laughing:

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DISCLAIMER: I don't mean this to be personal--I don't think I'd be qualified enough in this subject either.

 

But with all due respect, I'm not sure that someone with 108 finds and 6 hides is the most qualified person to write a test that he expects Groundspeak to push on new cachers.

Edited by Team Perks
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I've observed far more problems with newbies treating Travel Bugs correctly than their hiding Geocaches not meeting the Guidelines. I'm tempted to start a thread in the Travel Bug forums on a "Travel Bug Test", since this problem seems to generate lots of frustrations and kill lots of hopes. :laughing::laughing:

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Maybe new cachers should write the test questions; veterans could supply the answers.

Maybe we could just have a Getting Started section of the forums, where newbies could ask the questions and veterans could supply the answers! :ph34r:

 

If we Groundspeak were to implement a test, whoever is going to attempt to "verify" that new hiders know what they're doing should be someone with a substantial amount of experience. I'm not exclusively talking numbers, but documented experience in hiding/finding a wide variety of caches over a very large area (i.e., many states and countries). I've got the numbers part down, but I've only cached in three states. Therefore, I can't speak for anything outside those three states.

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Maybe new cachers should write the test questions; veterans could supply the answers.

Maybe we could just have a Getting Started section of the forums, where newbies could ask the questions and veterans could supply the answers! :ph34r:

 

If we Groundspeak were to implement a test, whoever is going to attempt to "verify" that new hiders know what they're doing should be someone with a substantial amount of experience. I'm not exclusively talking numbers, but documented experience in hiding/finding a wide variety of caches over a very large area (i.e., many states and countries). I've got the numbers part down, but I've only cached in three states. Therefore, I can't speak for anything outside those three states.

Let's implement a test so that anyone interested will we scared away by our Nazi regime. :ph34r:

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In my opinion, the best way to discourage Newbe cache hiders with none or only a couple finds is to boycott their hides. When a new cache pops up in my area by a nick I don't recognize I do a profile check. If it's hidden by a newbe with less than 20 or so finds under his belt I don't bother looking for it. (I will make exceptions of course for caches hidden at particuarly interesting locations!) :ph34r:

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How would you like it if I boycotted your caches. That's a mean spirited thing to do to newbies. We are supposed to encourage the newcomers by GOING to their caches, and if the caches need help, then we can make knowledgeable suggestions.

 

If everyone boycotted my caches at first I would have thought you all were a bunch of jerks.

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"It was a lame hide, the coords were off, I had to walk further than it said, I didn't like the container, it was hidden to high, it was hidden to low, they didn't say what type of shoes to wear, I had to park to far away and that should have been noted on the cache page, there were bugs, I didn't like the location", come on folks, its a game, get over it, oh and btw, what is a "Veteran Cacher" ?, was there some kind of geocache war I don't know about ?

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As a true newb (0 Finds, 0 Hides) I want to thank everyone for this thread. I have found it very educational. Since I am just starting -- haven't even gone on my first "offical" cache hunt, I value all this info!

 

I think these types of threads are just the thing to provide the peer pressure that generally is preferable to rules and tests. Thanks all- I look forward to joining in soon! :ph34r:

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In my opinion, the best way to discourage Newbe cache hiders with none or only a couple finds is to boycott their hides. When a new cache pops up in my area by a nick I don't recognize I do a profile check. If it's hidden by a newbe with less than 20 or so finds under his belt I don't bother looking for it. (I will make exceptions of course for caches hidden at particuarly interesting locations!) :ph34r:

Who are you calling a newbie. From the looks of your account number you're a newbie, at least from my standpoint.

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Who are you calling a newbie.  From the looks of your account number you're a newbie, at least from my standpoint.

I guess we’re all newbies, (cliché) if you don’t learn something every day, you’re dead.

 

Newbie, veteran, semantics. This is not really about freshmen and dead people.

 

"It was a lame hide, the coords were off, I had to walk further than it said, I didn't like the container, it was hidden to high, it was hidden to low, they didn't say what type of shoes to wear, I had to park to far away and that should have been noted on the cache page, there were bugs, I didn't like the location", come on folks, its a game, get over it, oh and btw, what is a "Veteran Cacher" ?, was there some kind of geocache war I don't know about ?

 

Well, there was that whole Project Ape thing way back when wars were popular, but that’s not the veteran to which I’m referring.

 

A veteran is a person of long experience in some occupation or skill (as politics or geocaching). In the big picture, I see myself as a newbie.

 

In my opinion, the best way to discourage Newbe cache hiders with none or only a couple finds is to boycott their hides...

 

Rather than boycotting, I would just avoid it for a while. :ph34r::ph34r:

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one of our local cachers has a GPS that has the format 00.00.00 so they add a 0 to the end to make it fit the format. thankfully we here are a bunch of nice guys and showed them places to convert the coords to the proper format for the cache pages....hopefully this will help with some of the probs.

 

LOL! It reminded me of the time a friend was showing me his new wristwatch. I complimented him on how nice it looked. "Thanks," he said. "But I have to return it. The date changes at noon."

 

I offered to fix it on the spot. I guess he thought I would open the case, because he said, "NO! It will void the warranty."

 

I backed off, but I did suggest that running the timepiece ahead twelve hours might "loosen up" the new, tight mechanism. ;)

 

-Paul-

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In my opinion, the best way to discourage Newbe cache hiders with none or only a couple finds is to boycott their hides.  When a new cache pops up in my area by a nick I don't recognize I do a profile check.  If it's hidden by a newbe with less than 20 or so finds under his belt I don't bother looking for it.  (I will make exceptions of course for caches hidden at particuarly interesting locations!)    :P

;) But you'll make exceptions, of course. :P

 

It seems to me the only people taking a gamble seeking new caches hidden by new geocachers are the FTF junkies. I'd bet they accept such risks as SOP.

 

How would you like it if I boycotted your caches. That's a mean spirited thing to do to newbies. We are supposed to encourage the newcomers by GOING to their caches, and if the caches need help, then we can make knowledgeable suggestions.

 

How is anyone going to know, much less care, if any individual geocacher is boycotting any specific caches? Especially when boycotting geocachers "make exceptions!?!" :P

Edited by Skovar
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DISCLAIMER: I don't mean this to be personal--I don't think I'd be qualified enough in this subject either.

 

But with all due respect, I'm not sure that someone with 108 finds and 6 hides is the most qualified person to write a test that he expects Groundspeak to push on new cachers.

OK, there is something you are not sure of... so what is your point???

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I just started my whole geocaching experience tonight. I found five of them and I enjoyed every minute of it. I read the instructions very carefully and I was careful to restore everything I opened or exposed. Honestly, I might not have been so into this if there was a test waiting for me. I dont want to be running through a test before I can do my hobby. If you are critical about someone's cache, then why not just take it up with them? *throws his two cents into the jar and dissapears back into the shadows...*

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If you are critical about someone's cache, then why not just take it up with them?  *throws his two cents into the jar and dissapears back into the shadows...*

Exactly...Quit whining about it on the forums and tell the cache owner what you dont like about the hide.

Im sure you can do it in such a way that you dont come off as an Eletist snob Know it all.

Its easy to sit here in relative anomymity and bash "newbie' cachers when all it would take to fix the problem would be to talk to the hider.

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After keeping up with this discussion, I have noticed one thing. In one of my professions (Emergency Medicine) there are different levels. First Responder, Basic, Intermediate, Paramedic and Advanced Paramedic are the levels in the state of Oklahoma.

 

Trust me its not off the subject, just stay with me on this one.

 

Once a person reaches a level above any of the first level they (they, meaning some of them) tend to think that they know more, are better at what they do than the other medic, and/or are just plain disrespectful because they are higher licensure. Once a person is of a higher licensure they still must start with the basic skills and treatments as if they were a First Responder or Basic, etc. All treatment, on all patients starts with ABC’s no matter the level of license, and some don’t do it. They start with all the glorified treatments, cardiac monitor, IV’s, Drug therapy, etc. Even an Advanced Paramedic still has to start with Basic skills then work their way up. Well they should, lets put it that way.

 

What I’m getting at is everyone had to start some where, and no matter how long you have been doing it, or what level you are, you still have to start with the basic principals of if first. This is the same for Geocaching. There are guidelines that should be meet, and followed no matter how advanced the person is. If you find that a person is not following or they are omitting some of the guidelines, please try helping them out first, this may make a better cacher. Seriously, not saying anyone here is this way, but this is the way it seems by reading the posts. I know that I can’t see the sarcasm or the grins behind the text that is being typed in the posts. Just to say that reading them, that’s the way it’s coming across.

 

Just remember that we all had to start at the geocache bottom. The more we cached, the more we learned, and the more cachers that we meet the more ideas we get.

 

I’m by far the one to ask for any advice on Geocaching because I’m still a new kid around here.

 

Honestly, I’m not pointing any fingers or laying blame on anyone. This is just my perception of the topic. Now lets put the coffee on and sit around and talk about it instead of bickering at each other or about each other. After all we are all in this together to have fun.

 

Now, that was my one serious episode for this week, back to my regular self.

 

Oh yeah, I’m sure there are some spelling and grammatical errors in this somewhere. Please just correct them as you read.

 

Arrestable

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Whoa, put that in your pipe and smoke it.

(Okay, turning ranting mode off.)

 

Well said Arrestable.

I'll sip my coffee and say: I do not think there is a need for a test at this time since I see no problem with new cachers placing bad caches. All cachers, experienced or newbie, will make bad caches from time to time in someones opinion.

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DISCLAIMER: I don't mean this to be personal--I don't think I'd be qualified enough in this subject either.

 

But with all due respect, I'm not sure that someone with 108 finds and 6 hides is the most qualified person to write a test that he expects Groundspeak to push on new cachers.

OK, there is something you are not sure of... so what is your point???

My point is that I haven't seen you prove yourself qualified to speak as an expert.

 

It doesn't take a 50-question test to figure that out.

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Maybe we should devise a test to see who should write a test. :unsure:

 

My main point in this topic is new geocachers (and old) would be better served if this official geocaching website encouraged new cache hiders to read more than just the guidelines. The guidelines are well established and if one doesn’t adhere to them, their cache will likely not be approved. Everyone has to check a box swearing that they have read them before a new cache submittal is even physically possible.

 

In addition, what this website has supplied is an arguably good tutorial about how to hide a cache, but the tutorial is buried below the easy online new cache report. My suggestion is that this website prioritize that tutorial in the same way it has the guidelines.

 

My second suggestion, as a result of earlier discussion in this topic is to provide an online, voluntary test so old and new cachers might learn something before they hide their next cache.

 

If a valid test is to be devised, it must be based on a premise, not just general community caching knowledge and expectations. That premise would be a combination of the guidelines and the tutorial.

 

So my challenge to new cachers and veterans is: read the guidelines and the tutorial provided on this site and write an important question that can be answered in one place or the other. Even if a test is never written, this would be a good exercise. :(:unsure:

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DISCLAIMER: I don't mean this to be personal--I don't think I'd be qualified enough in this subject either.

 

But with all due respect, I'm not sure that someone with 108 finds and 6 hides is the most qualified person to write a test that he expects Groundspeak to push on new cachers.

OK, there is something you are not sure of... so what is your point???

My point is that I haven't seen you prove yourself qualified to speak as an expert.

 

It doesn't take a 50-question test to figure that out.

I still have no idea what you are talking about. Who here has tried to say they were an "expert", certainly not me? I merely said I could write a test about the guidelines for hiding a cache. My qualifications for that are that I know how to write a test if given the material and the fact that I can read the guidelines. Regardless, I don't care about your opinion of my qualifications. Enough said?

 

Your comments have nothing to do with the topic at hand and are getting personal. Do me a favor, and if you have to make this a personal issue, then just stop addressing me and I won't address you, OK?

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No test. No rules. A few suggestions.

 

1) If the coords of a cache are off by an amount that makes finding it a problem, post your own coords in your log ... without any SA put-down comments.

 

2) If a geocacher consistently hides caches with bad coords, for whatever reason, and that bothers you ... don't do those caches.

 

3) Promote the idea of using averaging and/or projections in determining cache coords. But the fact is that some cache hiders will never understand what EPE means or ever look at that figure on the GPS. Not a big problem.

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Sept1c, what we really need is an IQ and/or conscientious test. Good luck in devising one of those that can make such an assessment.

 

My frustrated geo-ego agrees with minimal number of finds before hides (this based in similar finds with the problems described on numerous points of debate on this forum). Unfortunately, however, my practical geo-experience (id) side feels this is a bad course of action.

 

I have found experienced cachers place really poor caches with bad coordinates. I have also experienced new cachers with less than 20 hides put out well-planned caches with spot-on coordinates (back to the IQ/conscientious factor, as opposed to experience). Indeed, the on-line comments on my first cache, placed when I had a mere 19 finds, attest that setting a minimal find number could stiffle excitement in the sport and the placement of quality caches.

 

I shall let you know if it is either ego or id that eventually wins. :bad:

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When I first started caching, I was no stranger to GPS. I had 2 units and knew both inside out. I knew how to average waypoints, and make good coords. My first visitors to my caches even commented on good coords. I only had 3 caches under my belt on my first hide, it was fine. The only problem I had was not giving it a high enough difficulty rating, which after I corrected it is 3 stars.

 

Just because your new to the game doesn't mean you can't know what your doing. IMO, the effort could be well placed in providing reading material on placing caches to newcomers. I have seen several websites, one by Thot, and another called Geocache U, that do a good job of teaching you the game.

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Sept1c, what we really need is an IQ and/or conscientious test.  Good luck in devising one of those that can make such an assessment.

You are probably right about the type of test. Difficult as it may be to devise, I still think a voluntary test (like you suggested) would be desirable for cachers from tadpole status to flattened, Frisbee frog. Devising it would be a lesson for all of us, and one that we could pass along to our geograndchildren. Still, I believe that all cachers, especially new ones should be exposed to some norm, standard or expectation before they place a cache.

 

My frustrated geo-ego agrees with minimal number of finds before hides (this based in similar finds with the problems described on numerous points of debate on this forum). Unfortunately, however, my practical geo-experience (id) side feels this is a bad course of action.

I’m over the find requirement; the best argument against that is, “what if a new cacher goes out and finds 10 Wallmart specials, is that his expected norm?”

 

I have found experienced cachers place really poor caches with bad coordinates. I have also experienced new cachers with less than 20 hides put out well-planned caches with spot-on coordinates (back to the IQ/conscientious factor, as opposed to experience). Indeed, the on-line comments on my first cache, placed when I had a mere 19 finds, attest that setting a minimal find number could stiffle excitement in the sport and the placement of quality caches.

In my original post in this thread, I mentioned two new cacher/hiders in my area. Presumably you have read the history of cacher #1. To exemplify your point (and several other posters in this thread) that experience doesn’t guarantee good cacher/hiders and it shouldn’t preclude inexperienced potential cachers, let’s examine cacher #2. His first and second hides are very nice hides. As I also mentioned in my original post, I appreciate the vigor of newcomers to our hobby. I had the pleasure of meeting the pleasant middle school student that placed these caches.

 

You hit it right on the head with the IQ test.

:bad::D

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So what is the offical outcome on this thread?

 

Certain number of caches found before first hid. Bad

 

Taking a test before you hide a cache. Not so good.

 

Just my oppinion I still think you should have to go through a small tutorial before you place your first cache. Maybee five minutes to prove you have gone through the rules, instead of just checking the box that says you read them. After that you don't need to check the box because they know you at least went through them. I am not sasying this will improve the acuracy or quality but just maybee it will help some.

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I don't think there's any right answer to this debate. You could write a test, set a minimum number of finds and I think there will still be a problem with bad hides and poor numbers etc. It's part of the game, and I say deal with it. The worst idea I read was boycotting newbie hides, which I think is just mean spirited and solves nothing. If you really want to help people hide caches then go try and find the newbie caches and *IF* there's a problem you should kindly make some suggestions.

 

I just placed my first cache less than a week ago, and I only have 13 finds under my belt. Based on the comments I've received so far, I'd say it was a good hide. The only thing that boycotting my hide would teach me is that there are some seriously stuck-up snobs in this sport who think too highly of themselves.

 

Of course, seeing as I use my GPS every day for my job and I was trained to use a GPS in the field before I even knew geocaching existed, I might not be the best example for a typical newbie. :bad:

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So what is the offical outcome on this thread?

 

Certain number of caches found before first hid.  Bad

 

Taking a test before you hide a cache.  Not so good.

 

Just my oppinion I still think you should have to go through a small tutorial before you place your first cache. Maybee five minutes to prove you have gone through the rules, instead of just checking the box that says you read them. After that you don't need to check the box because they know you at least went through them. I am not sasying this will improve the acuracy or quality but just maybee it will help some.

What do you mean by a 5 minute tutorial? There is already a full page of guidelines that should be read before anyone places a cache. The limitations of actually getting people to read and understand/remember the guidelines is obvious. How would an additional tutorial help anything?

 

A test, on the other hand, will make some assurances that the cache hider actually knows how to follow the guidelines. No one is saying a test would be perfect. Of course tests are never perfect. Just look at all the people who graduate from high school and college. Do you really think they all remember the material that they had to learn to get the diploma? No, but most certainly remember enough to get by. Certainly a lot more graduates remember a lot more of what they learned than they would have if there were no tests.

 

When people say a test is not warranted, they are saying that assuring caches are hidden correctly is not important enough to take the time to provide and administer a test. As more and more cachers start placing more and more caches out there, problems will become more and more frequent, such as the recent bridge "bomb" scare that made headlines and the potential anti-geocaching law in SC. We will need to do more to assure the caches are consistent with the guidelines and don't create problems, for cachers or the rest of the world!

 

We can be proactive and take steps to keep the sport under the radar, or others will do it for us. :(

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