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I Hate Rules As Much As The Next Guy, But...


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At one point I had 3 finds to 2 hides, and my caches were well liked. Had there been a test I might not have even become a Geocacher. I eased into this absorbing what I could and found out I liked it, it was fun, and for the most part easy.

 

If you throw a test in there it will just complicate things, it is working fine the way it is.

 

If you want new joiners to feel like a part of the "Community" you have to welcome them, and let them know this isn't a secret society, but open to everyone.

 

I've only been here a little over a month, but I think I'm just as much a member of the community as anyone.

Edited by Airmapper
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... But with the popularity of geocaching growing at the exponential rate (excuse me Jeremy :lol: ) that it is, there's a good possibility that it may become a problem.

"The sky is falling, the sky is falling." Shhh ... quiet! Was that a cry of "wolf" I heard in the distance?

 

After re-reading your OP and the quoted comment, I wonder:

 

How many more active cachers are there today than there were one year ago? Two years ago? (Note the use of the word "active.")

 

Historically, what percentage of new cachers have listed caches without having logged any finds? What percentage of those caches were reported to be of poor quality?

 

How does that compare to the percentage of all newly listed caches reported to be of poor quality that were hidden by experienced, active cachers?

 

Is there a significant difference; if so, which group did worse?

 

After crunching your numbers, wouldn't it be hilarious to discover that the group consisting of experienced, active cachers proved to be the group badly in need of "re-education?"

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Well, from the perspective of a very obvious newbie (just bought GPS Saturday 10/1, first find Sunday 10/2), just the fact that this discussion is out here in a place people can view it, makes things better. Myself and my crew had already decided that we'd wait until we have 50 finds before we make our first hide (helped immensly by the new alphabet cache nearby), but knowing what does and doesn't work is a great idea.

 

I don't know on the test idea...from my perspective, I'd be fine with it or not, but there are many people in this world that hate anything to do with tests. All of the sugestions on this being "peer pressure" and what not are also true to a point...that point being that new cacher's aren't always aware there is a "community" at all...to some it's a solo-secretive thing :lol:

 

Overall, the best I could see as help would be to have the "guidelines" more promenently featured prior to letting people hide a cache, and take many of the points here and try to make the guide more user friendly. Perhaps even make a wiki page that people can edit for further tips. And if things are really a problem in your area, perhaps having some of the better cache's in your location somehow be prominently featured as ones people should check out to get ideas on how this game is played. Basically, set up a "top ten" list for caches in each area. Heck, that may make things solve themselves, especially if there are lists for each of the types (best micro, best multi, etc). Make it a kinda fun competition to make a great cache that everyone will enjoy.

 

Just some random thoughts while tring to avoid work.

 

Celticwulf

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... Myself and my crew had already decided that we'd wait until we have 50 finds before we make our first hide (helped immensly by the new alphabet cache nearby), but knowing what does and doesn't work is a great idea.

I suspect you will learn a lot more about "what not to do" than "the right way to do things." That's not necessarily a bad thing ... but by all means, when you do hide your first cache, please revisit this thread and let us know what you learned and how it affected your hide.

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...Overall, the best I could see as help would be to have the "guidelines" more promenently featured prior to letting people hide a cache, and take many of the points here and try to make the guide more user friendly.  Perhaps even make a wiki page that people can edit for further tips....

Thanks for your comments and welcome to geocaching, celticwulf, and welcome to our community.

 

BTW, I heard a rumor that GC.com may employ a wiki in the future. This could be a great tool. Also, there is cacheopedia; you will see a link in my signature. :lol::lol:

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I'll disagree. Like I said earlier. This sport/game/hobby was founded and built by people who had found very few if any caches at all before they placed one. Remember that when Dave Ulmer hid the very first cache he had never found one. Granted it wasn't the perfect cache, but the coordinates must have been good because it was found the next day.

 

I think the first cache was placed on private property without permission, contained food and was buried. :lol: . The second cache had alcohol in it.

 

Seriously, a "'test"' though not a terrible idea is just not feasable. The reviewers have enough work. Now they have to grade dozens of tests a week?

 

An arbitrary number of hides before placing is also silly. As I mentioned earlier, experience is no guarantee that someone will place good caches and lack of experience is no guarantee they can't..

 

Besides, if a newbie comes along with some cool ideas for caches and you force him to find 20 caches first, what if they are all guardrail micros (not out of the question in some areas). Now he's thinking "well that's all I have to do?" and you've tainted another mind.

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...Seriously, a "'test"' though not a terrible idea is just not feasable. The reviewers have enough work. Now they have to grade dozens of tests a week?

 

It is feasable. We're not talking essay exam here; if a test was incorporated into the website, I would expect it to be multiple choice or true and false. This would easily be graded instantly, by computer.

 

Admittedly, writing the exam would require personal attention.

 

...if a newbie comes along with some cool ideas  for caches and you force him to find 20 caches first, what if they are all guardrail micros (not out of the question in some areas).  Now he's thinking "well  that's all I have to do?" and you've tainted another mind.

 

As I said earlier in this topic, this is a valid point. A tainted mind is a terrible thing. :lol::lol:

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This is a simplification, but assume for a moment that there are two main reasons that a new cacher might do a poor job placing their first cache:

 

1) Because they didn't care to do any better.

 

2) Because they didn't know that they should and could do something better.

 

Probably not much can be done to help those in the first group. But for the second group, a well publicized, strictly voluntary online version of a 'test' like the one briansnat proposed might help them to better understand the things they should be thinking about as they prepare to place their first cache.

 

edit: extra word

Edited by cache_test_dummies
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...a well publicized, strictly voluntary online version of a 'test' like the one briansnat proposed might help them to better understand the things they should be thinking about as they prepare to place their first cache.

A well publicized, strictly voluntary online version of a 'test.'

 

The best thought I've seen so far! :lol::lol:

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i'm sick of newbies gettign blamed for sloppy placements. newbies shouldn't hide caches. newbies shouldn't handle TBs.

 

oy. i hid my first cache on my first day of caching, twelve days before my first find.

 

its coordinates were good, its container was sturdy, and its contents and log were in order.

 

many caches later i managed to hide one for which i had made a mistake and the coordinates were 100 yards off.

 

ANY time you go to look for a first find you are in effect agreeing to be the beta tester.

 

every time i see a newbie i am thankful for another cache for me to find. them what WILL become good hiders will learn soon enough. them that won't, won't no matter how many they find.

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My only issue with new cachers is sometimes they don't think of everything you're supposed to do. It's all part of the learning process. Maybe a check sheet for placement? I don't know. Probably couldn't hurt. Will every new cache placer follow it? I doubt it.

 

The point I think I'm trying to make is the more clear guidance a new cacher has the less likely they will make an obvious mistake. No need for a PhD, just a series of simple checks should do nicely.

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If there is a measurable problem with new cachers placing bad caches, why not put the effort into providing more information as to how a cache should be placed. I placed caches as a newbie, they were fine, had you made me take a test and prove myself first, I might not have liked Geocaching. There are enough rules and regulations as it is, don't propose any more until there is a great need.

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Trying to avoid these winless arguments but I gotta jump in here . . .

 

As for learning the gps, Try making a cache in your area along THIS line to help check the equipment out and to learn where you stand, so to speak.

 

As for cache containers. We all go to events. Have a "Show and Tell" table with a variety of cache containers on display. Talk about the plus's and minus's of each style and type.

 

As for new cachers who need "training". Hold an outdoor event with enough room where you can hide some temporary caches to practice on. IE; Straight hide and find, waypoint projections, offset with compass and pacing - both true and magnetic bearings, puzzle caches from a sign in the parking lot, etc.

 

As for hiding xxx caches first, we found three caches our first day and hid one the second day. Only because the next cache was around 100 miles away. I doubt if you can travel 100 miles on any Interstate or major state route without having a cache somewhere close by anymore. But on saying that, there where these places in Montana I was looking at . . . Well, maybe there will be a few places after all.

 

I do not care how many finds or hides a cacher has as long as the caches they place are not "WH?" - (Why here?). I joined this game to locate interesting backstreet areas of the US. I can drive down the street to the local landfill if all I want to do is wade around through junk and trash.

 

We have hidden over 100 caches. Not all active now for different reasons. Stolen, muggled, Corp of Engineers, No longer in the area enough to maintain them so adopted them out, ect.

 

I still screwed up the last one I put out by 300 feet. Out in the open over two miles from anything blocking reception. Typo I guess.

 

If you have a cacher in your area who is screwing the numbers up on purpose, stop hunting those caches and lower your heart rate a little bit.

 

As for an online test, some people are book smart and street stupid and even the best test will do them no good in the brush. Your local S&R people can attest to that.

 

My two cents worth. If you want change, meet me on the trail.

 

Logscaler.

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You can give all the tests you want.People are going to do what they want in the end anyway.

And having a set number of finds doesn't work either.Like someone said before,

you just might learn how to do lame hides by finding lame hides.

 

I don't have that many finds {maybe 25}But I have a few decent hides out there..

{maybe 6}...My intention was to spend a lot more time hunting caches after retirement, but a heart attack and open heart surgery changed me from a Hunter to a hider. Since I'm not able to spend the time I would like to looking for caches in new unfamilliar places, I have decided to take people to new and unfamilliar places.

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That's the real enjoyment from hiding caches, getting the logs and knowing people had a good time out looking for stuff you hid in the woods. I know I get a kick out of reading the logs for my caches.

 

Now if you can't go out and find caches very well, you can still get enjoyment from the game by hiding caches. If there is a limitation, it will restrict players with good intentions.

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There should be some qualification process for hiding your first cache. Let’s say, you have to find 10 (arbitrary number) caches, or pass a test or something before you place your first one. :D

 

This might help to ensure that you at least know how to use a GPSr. (example) :ph34r:

 

There are at least two new caches on my nearest list that are placed by newly joined cachers; in both cases the newbies have listed no finds. I just don’t understand the logic; I do appreciate the energy and enthusiasm. :D:lol:

:D nothing like newbe bashing to make you feel better ENJOY

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I've already seen posts from newbies in the getting started section that think this post is for real. They are worrying about placing a first cache and what requirements they need. They are thinking that the more experienced cachers don't think they can do a good job placing a cache.

 

This sport welcomes new members, not bombard them with a bunch of rules and regulations right off the bat. And besides, can anyone prove that newbies are making bad caches, usually they try harder to do good.

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Good point. And as a newbie, I would be willing to take a test just so you old timers might stop picking on me! :P<_<

I respectfully disagree with you on the test thing. The sport is self correcting. If bad coords are given, emails, notes, and better coords are posted to the cache and the owner. I have seen it happen before, and the owner has always, in my experience, posted better coords and an apology.

 

Of course this is just my opinion, your results may very, not a valid offer anywhere, EPA mileage is an estimate, etc

 

Happy Caching!

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I've already seen posts from newbies in the getting started section that think this post is for real. They are worrying about placing a first cache and what requirements they need. They are thinking that the more experienced cachers don't think they can do a good job placing a cache.

 

This sport welcomes new members, not bombard them with a bunch of rules and regulations right off the bat. And besides, can anyone prove that newbies are making bad caches, usually they try harder to do good.

As others have pointed out, experienced cachers have problems placing caches too. Probably there are more old-timers than newcomers placing undesirable caches. One reason might be because there are more old-timers than newcomers.

 

And it can be challenging to teach an old dog new tricks. This topic is not meant to suggest that the newest breed of cachers are less intelligent, or lack common sense; this topic does suggest that most of those already indoctrinated into our community would not support a test prior to placing a cache (it’s also a task to convince an old dog to change old habits).

 

Any new concept employed by an existing organization needs a starting point. A newcomer to our gig is the logical place to start.

 

In the title of this topic I noted, “I hate rules as much as the next guy.” I do hate rules.

 

Requiring cachers to find X number of caches before hiding one is a bad idea.

 

Requiring cachers to take a test is also not realistic, but as cache_test_dummies suggested, A well publicized, strictly voluntary online version of a 'test' is not only a good idea, it would be easy to implement.

 

At any rate, GC.com should encourage reading their tutorial before they encourage people to report a new cache. The guidelines are required reading, but they emphasize the legal and liability aspect of caching.

 

The tutorial puts more emphasis on practicality and the how to. It should also be required reading.

 

And a voluntary, 20-question test on the material is not an outrageous idea; it is barely an inconvenience. :P<_<

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Throwing in few more pennies to the discussion...

 

Someone can always write a book or make a DVD with detailed discussion on placing Geocaches, $$promote and sell$$ them... and of course, include a test to "review the chapters" so to speak. Maybe someone has done this already? <_<

 

(If no one wants to buy the books, then the people who are irritated by "newbies" can buy them, and place them in caches... HINT)

 

As I mentioned earlier, why not reward test takers with a "Geocaching License?" I think people will take them just for fun. It can be designed with memorable catch phrases so people will remember the Guidelines without trying.

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Good point.  And as a newbie, I would be willing to take a test just so you old timers might stop picking on me!  :P  :P

I respectfully disagree with you on the test thing. The sport is self correcting. If bad coords are given, emails, notes, and better coords are posted to the cache and the owner. I have seen it happen before, and the owner has always, in my experience, posted better coords and an apology.

 

Of course this is just my opinion, your results may very, not a valid offer anywhere, EPA mileage is an estimate, etc

 

Happy Caching!

Yeah, it might be self correcting, but why not nip it in the bud? It has been more than once that I tried for a FTF and was stymied by the coordinates being off by more than 100 feet.

 

I personally am responsible for a similar mistake, but it was not the coords on the web page, rather the coords for the second stage of the four stage multi. It was a digit typo which put the point some 12 miles away. Since I named the park to look in, it was easy to see where the correct spot was... whew! Just barely dodged that bullet, I would have been very embarrassed had this stopped team Psycho in it's tracks! <_<

 

So yes, mistakes will happen no matter what you do. But the many 100+ feet initial coordinate errors I have seen would have been reduced if the hiders knew to take multiple measurements and average them. That is in the guidelines, right??? It will be on my test!!!

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The tutorial puts more emphasis on practicality and the how to.

Kind of like this one.

 

I started it, but never finished it. It's still full of typos and other mistakes. It's based on placing a basic traditional. Good enough to get you started placing caches and leaves the advanced stuff for later.

 

Maybe one day I'll finish it. <_<

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Requiring cachers to take a test is also not realistic, but as cache_test_dummies suggested, A well publicized, strictly voluntary online version of a 'test' is not only a good idea, it would be easy to implement.

Now I can see this. A "Take the Geocaching Quiz" page where new geocachers can see how they do on Geocaching etiquette and a few regulations.

 

As long as it is fun and pretty easy, I think most newbies would do it. Just as long as it's voluntary and not mandatory. Being voluntary I think more geocachers, even old- timers would do it because it would be new, and the new geocachers would be curious as to how they stack up. I would do a voluntary quiz.

 

I don't think the scores ought to be published, that's only for the individual cacher to know and they can share if they want to, or not.

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Requiring cachers to take a test is also not realistic, but as cache_test_dummies suggested, A well publicized, strictly voluntary online version of a 'test' is not only a good idea, it would be easy to implement.

Now I can see this. A "Take the Geocaching Quiz" page where new geocachers can see how they do on Geocaching etiquette and a few regulations.

 

As long as it is fun and pretty easy, I think most newbies would do it. Just as long as it's voluntary and not mandatory. Being voluntary I think more geocachers, even old- timers would do it because it would be new, and the new geocachers would be curious as to how they stack up. I would do a voluntary quiz.

 

I don't think the scores ought to be published, that's only for the individual cacher to know and they can share if they want to, or not.

Maybe not individual scores be posted, but a percentile type thing or comparison just for fun that you can see when you finish the test

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I don't think a test for a game is a good idea. Yes, some of us paid money to become prem members. Yes, most of us have bought GPS'rs (for something else but is used for this too). Yes, we've got expenses. But the same can be said for any other adult game. If you gamble, same money. You don't take a test to play blackjack. You learn from experience (or loose $$$). You buy a monopoly game. Same money. You don't take a test for it. You read the instructions (well, some people do) and then you start playing. You spend money on RC planes. No test given. You build and then you learn to fly. The examples are in the thousands.

 

Somewhere's on this site I've read this is a game??? Or a hobby? Test for either is just not good sense ... to me.

 

<_<

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The examples are in the thousands.

You go skydiving...

 

You go whitewater rafting...

 

You go rock climbing...

 

Oops.

 

While there might not be formal tests in some of these, there is some sort of instuctions. (I just used examples on the opposite side of where geocaching is.)

 

My point is when you place a cache it should adhere to a certain standard because you are inviting other hobbyists to visit it. All placers should be on the same page so hunters can be somewhat assured coords are relatively accurate, the cache will most likely be there, the contents worth browsing, and the trip worthwhile.

 

I'm not advocating a test in the least. However, better mentoring of new hobbyists wouldn't be a bad idea.

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Zero finds before first hide.... There just WEREN'T any around in 01 !!!! It was painfully simple and I was ecstatic when it was found <_< , granted, I had been using my GPS since 1997 and I knew how to use it. I used to sell them at the time and still get upset when people expect instant gratification in learning their GPS units.

I think I'll re-activate my first find as a multi again, and use obscure Datums for part 2 & 3, see if people really read their manuals and practice. I had fun with the last time it was multi, BUT.....

 

BTW, few finds on this account, I keep my hides and forum posts here, OTHER account has my finds.

CCC

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If there is something wrong with a cache, why not just tell the owner?

police the problem yourself. muster up some gumption and tell it like it is where it counts.

I would like to hear some creative ways to tell a cache owner.

Your cache sucks.

your coords.are off.

your container leaks.

The location is a dump, I almost blead to death from broken glass cuts.

You were just too dadgum lazy to do it right!

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So it continues...the Old cachers verse the New cachers. What difference does it make? A good cache is a good cache and a bad cache is a bad cache. We have all experienced both. Right? Maybe we should make the "newbies" take a test every time they want to place a cache. And what other stipulations shoud we place? Sould we have someone experienced hold their hand and make sure they have their GPS set correctly? Make sure they hide their cache like we would?

 

Come on guys...that is what makes the game fun...Everbody is different and they hide differently.

 

And what is considered a "newbie"? One who has found 10, 50, 100, 200, 500, 1,000 caches? And at what point can "newbies" hide caches? After they have found 20, 30, 40 or 1,000? We have done some caches hidden by cachers who have not found very many, but have been excellent hides. We have also found some by people that have hidden many (plus some) and have been very dissapointed. It 's just a matter of opinion. Coords that are off are frustrating, but that is just the way is goes. And futhermore, you choose the caches you want to do. If you think the cache is lame...don't do it!!

 

If you want us to take the test...so be it. Let's all take the test before our next hide. Oh yeah, what about that test before finding one?

Edited by kentuckygirls
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And what is considered a "newbie"? One who has found 10, 50, 100, 200, 500, 1,000 caches? And at what point can "newbies" hide caches? After they have found 20, 30, 40 or 1,000?

That's a good point, just where do you draw the line.

 

My stats: 31 Finds, 5 Hides, 10 Benchmarks (thought I'd throw them in for good measure.)

 

Am I a newbie? I certainly don't FEEL like a newbie, even though I'm not "experienced." Where is the line here, I don't think there should be a line. If your new that's great, if you need help it's here. Your an Old Timer, that's great, help the newcomers when they need it. (But not before)

 

I still think the volunteer quiz might be cool, but certainly not necessary. Everything is working fine as it is. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

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I seem to be the one most supportive of a test and I am willing to write one. I would like to make it into a web page where you can click radio buttons for the multiple choices and at the bottom click a button to have your score calculated and displayed on a new page. I have web space to host this page, but I don't know how to write the HTML. If someone would give me some boilerplate, I could then add the questions and make it available for all to see.

 

Any HTML gurus out there that can help me with the boilerplate?

 

Are there any good tools for making a test page like this?

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I seem to be the one most supportive of a test and I am willing to write one. I would like to make it into a web page where you can click radio buttons for the multiple choices and at the bottom click a button to have your score calculated and displayed on a new page. I have web space to host this page, but I don't know how to write the HTML. If someone would give me some boilerplate, I could then add the questions and make it available for all to see.

 

Any HTML gurus out there that can help me with the boilerplate?

 

Are there any good tools for making a test page like this?

There is no test needed. We don't even need this thread. The new comers are just as intelligent as us oldtimers. There are guidelines posted that help everyone. It's up to the individual to follow the guidelines. No test will ever make that happen. I'm sure the Approvers will atest to that fact. :laughing:

 

El Diablo

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...And what is considered a "newbie"?  One who has found 10, 50, 100, 200, 500, 1,000 caches?

 

...If you want us to take the test...so be it.  Let's all take the test before our next hide.  Oh yeah, what about that test before finding one?

For my intent, in this topic, a newbie is anyone. As I have tried to explain, the concept being discussed here is: people (not just new cachers) should be encouraged to explore a geocaching tutorial, as well as the guidelines, before they are encouraged to place a cache.

 

The logical place to begin this would be with new cachers. :P

 

And, as a newbie/somewhereinbetween/oldtimer, I would be happy to take a test before I place my next cache. Keep in mind, this discussion is now trending toward a *voluntary test.*

 

I really can't think of any good reason to test, or qualify anyone before finding a geocache. :laughing: :laughing:

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A simple cache I have to clean up alot, lots of Non-cachers aka "muggles" and locals that think it's funny watching people look for it is a HOOT !

 

It's been swined a few times, I ask that NO TB's are left, it was approved by Jeremy (que God sound ) Himself

 

It's a nice place ! People have vacationed here for years and STILL this is new...

 

Muggles take care of if ( sometimes badly), so I go by alot to keep an eye on it

 

The Big "W" http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...y&log=&numlogs=

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CR, I understand the idea your trying to get across but....

 

You go skydiving...

 

You go whitewater rafting...

 

You go rock climbing...

 

Oops.

 

As I recall it, in these hobbies - sports, you only get ONE mistake. :laughing:

 

Logscaler.

A quote I've seen somewhere, "If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you."

 

:laughing:

 

Anyway, like I said, those examples were on the other side of where I think geocaching is from Yamahammer's.

 

Some hobbies that one will pursue the way you persue it only affects themselves. Others, as illustrated in my examples have dire consequences if done wrong.

 

However, in geocaching, though the consequences of mistakes aren't dire, they do affect others. That's my point and the reason I feel the need for base guidelines and flat out reject the notion "play it however you feel you should play it."

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Any HTML gurus out there that can help me with the boilerplate?

 

Are there any good tools for making a test page like this?

You could use a ready made script to create one. Look here for a few. I've not looked at any of these so I can't make a recommendation. If you don't know how to install cgi scripts, well, it's a good skill to learn if you have a website.

 

If you are willing to learn a very easy programing language, and your host provides for it, learn PHP. You could, near trivially, write a single page that would do what you are asking. It won't be as convenient to change the questions and answers as a script package, but would make it easily transportable to any host with PHP with the same version or better. (This is how the ClayJar Cache Rating System is built.)

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