Should Urban Micros Be Allowed Anymore?

[+driven1]

I was at a Fall GeoCaching get together at a Pennsylvania State Park. While folks were introducing themselves, one person told of a tale where an entire Walmart Store was cleared of customers, the Parking Lot Cleared, and a Bomb squad called in because a patron had seen a Cacher placing a micro back in a light pole in the parking lot. This happened in Jamestown, NY.

 

The day after the get-together, my wife and I went to do some caches in Emporium, PA. One of them was at a play ground. There were about 5 little girls there and an old woman walking her dogs on a street on the other side of the park. We decided that we wouldn't actually try to find the cache but get an idea of the area it was in instead and come back later due to all of the "Muggles."

 

We headed on to our next cache. As we were heading to it, we passed a State Trooper. I noticed in my rear-view that he turned around. No biggie. I turned up a street heading towards the cache and then noticed the Trooper at an intersection in front of us. I passed him. He pulled out of the intersection and got behind us. I decided to pull off the street to see if he'd keep on going. Nope. He pulled along side and asked what we were doing. He had gotten a report of "Suspicious Persons" at the park with a description of our van and license plate. Of course, he had never heard of geocaching, so I explained it to him. He was pretty cool about it afterwards and thought it sounded like fun. I told him it was and he should try it. Said he'd look into it.

 

I got to thinking about it afterwards. Look at the time and tax dollars that were expended on those two examples by law enforcement. It's a sad thing I know, but due to the state of affairs these days with terrorism, child abductions, etc. Do you think that Urban Micros should be allowed anymore? Or are there solutions that may help, like giving all cache locations to local law enforcement, etc. I would still think that they would still have to go check these complaints out though. The only real solution I can see is to heavily restrict placement to historic or public place of interest areas only and have those caches listed with local authorities.

 

Thoughts. Ideas? - Let's hear 'em!

[+Yamahammer]

What's the difference in Urban Micro's and Urban Regular caches? Urban is urban regardless of the cache size.

 

This is where the person(s) placing the cache has the responsibility of making a good, sound decision of where they are placing cache's. This is also where the person(s) seeking out the cache's has to make a good, sound decision about when it the appropriate time or place to find the cache. GC has guidelines/rules/regulations about placement. The rest is up to us.

 

[+The Leprechauns]

The challenges you describe are not limited to micros. In fact, larger containers such as PVC pipes and ammo boxes tend to be a more frequent trigger of bomb squad callouts. You can't hide a whole lot of explosives in a bison capsule and, for that matter, it'd take a diligent law enforcement officer to actually *find* some of those containers.

 

Over the years we have seen the listing guidelines expand to include more and more areas in the "off limits" list: military installations, highway bridges, dams, government buildings, airports, etc. We can point to several examples of caches that triggered law enforcement issues at each of these locations. Most recently, this year "elementary and secondary schools" were added to the list of places where caches can't be hidden. You don't say whether the playground in your example was in a schoolyard or a park. If it was in a park, then you were doing nothing wrong by being there and wandering around.

 

The answer is the use of common sense on the part of both hiders and finders, IMHO. Hiders can choose locations unlikely to arouse suspicion, and can seek out permission from the landowner/land manager. (But even having permission is no guarantee that the bomb squad won't detonate your cache, as we have seen on several occasions.) Finders can discontinue their hunt, as in the example described, rather than creating suspicion or exposing the hiding place of the cache. Protecting the cache's integrity and not drawing attention to oneself ought to be more important than one more smiley. I've discontinued many hunts for just that reason.

[+AtoZ]

Get out the stick again it seems folks are going to keep beating this dead horse, UGH. It is not a new idea no matter how you pose it, yawn.

 

I have heard of more small to regular sized caches being blown up by the police then I have micros.

 

And you must look really supicious if the cops followed you, LOL.

 

Cheers

[vagabond]

We had one on our todo list yesterday, that was, I believe was the first light post

right in front of the main door of Target, we passed it by. Placements like that I believe are kind of dumb, plus they usually don't last very long.

[+CurmudgeonlyGal]

And you must look really supicious if the cops followed you...

No kidding.

 

Part of the appeal (for people who like to do them... I don't) is that whole sneaky-don't-get-caught thing.

 

I've had opportunity, myself, to speak with a nice police officer when I was out hunting a cache. It was moreso my big vehicle with out-of-state plates in a very odd area that set him off, but still...

 

If you tend to be the type that attracts police, maybe you should stick to non-urban caching or get a helluva lot better at urban caching.

[+Team Perks]

I have yet to hear of the bomb squad being called to blow up a bison tube in my area. Plenty of ammo cans and Tupperware though.

 

Urban caches are fine, as long as the hider 1) chooses a container that will make it pretty obvious that it ain't a bomb and 2) doesn't put it anywhere stupid.

[+Pablo Mac]

It may be only a matter of time before a real perv gets caught stalking someone and tries to throw the cops off with, "Have you ever heard of geocaching? I was only looking for a little container..."

 

 

What would that do to our sport?

[+driven1]

I certainly understand folks defense of Micros. Personally I agree with that defense. I guess what I'm trying to get at is due to all of the stuff with terrorism concerns, etc. now, are Urban (and I'll correct this a bit) Caches still a good idea?

Edited September 12, 2005 by driven1

[Pto]

If you tend to be the type that attracts police, maybe you should stick to non-urban caching or get a helluva lot better at urban caching.

 

Or, just choose not to search them, as I have. I do this for enjoyment- I can get the cops to bug me all by myself

[+wolfmaster]

And you must look really supicious if the cops followed you, LOL.

Geeze, I met driven1 for the first time this weekend and I'm surprised the whole picnic wasn't raided (JK)

 

I do have to agree on some of the micros that have been showing up recently. Dead end streets in residential areas, tiny parks in residential areas, close to power stations, parks where only younger kids frequent, not to mention the drive by micros. Those are the ones planted by driving by and tossing them out the window and reading the GPS at the same time.

[+JohnnyVegas]

Banning urban micros is not a real good idea. In most urban areas you cannot find a place to hide a full size cache. I have found lots of urban micros with no problems from the local LEOs, you just have to learn to be sneaky, if there are muggles just move on to another cache. If there are muggles near any urban cache I am looking for I just keep going and leave it for another day.

[+Renegade Knight]

If you read the rules on what a target is, remote areas are on the list as well. Why? Because there are no people there to witness an event. Urban areas are as well. Why? Because there are people there. The only way to win is to go about our lives in spite of the reasons that have put remote and urban areas on the same list of high risk terrorist targets.

 

Part of how people respond to the call, is how the call is handled itself. I've seen two caches in my area get called in. Both got a visit by the Narcotics officers. Not the bomb squad. One of those caches was mine. In both cases the officers had no problem with geocaching, and one left their card and said "enjoy your game".

 

Thats the key thing. We are not doing anything wrong, and that is the long and short of it. It's nice when the police recognize that.

Edited September 12, 2005 by Renegade Knight

[+whistler & co.]

Get a dog. Get a MALE dog. He will pee on everything that could possibly have a cache in or on or under it, and you won't look quite so supicious lingering around if you've got Fido sniffing the light pole!

 

Also, get some kids...we can spend all the time we want in parks, and even climb around on and under the equipment, and no one looks at us funny becuse we have kids with us!

 

Or, if you take up smoking, you'll have an excuse to lurk in back alleys, on loading docks, and near guardrails at rest areas.

 

And many times has the camera saved the day for us. The bigger and more showy the better. When people walk by, look through your viewfinder. Move a few feet, then look through it again. You can even move to odd locations, like the other side of the guardrail, on top of a retaining wall, or go through the bushes to "get a better shot" if you pretend to take photos!

Edited September 12, 2005 by whistler & co.

[+tozainamboku]

It may be only a matter of time before a real perv gets caught stalking someone and tries to throw the cops off with, "Have you ever heard of geocaching? I was only looking for a little container..."

 

 

What would that do to our sport?

At first, I was going to respond that the police have ways to tell if you're a real geocacher or just using this as a cover story. For example, they can ask to see your GPSr or make you explain geocaching to them (pretending they've never heard of it). Then it occurred to me, what if the real perv turned out to also be a real geocacher?

Edited September 12, 2005 by tozainamboku

[+StarBrand]

Anybody besides me that thinks that it is a GOOD thing that the cops are a bit more suspicious these days????

 

We aren't doing anything wrong. A quick hello to the local officer isn't such a bad thing.

 

I was questioned by a cop for suspicious activity while planting a cache 20 miles from the nearest town along a seldom traveled road. Not limited to urban areas. Again we aren't doing anything wrong....

[+Yamahammer]

Anybody besides me that thinks that it is a GOOD thing that the cops are a bit more suspicious these days????

I agree with this whole-heartedly. It isn't just terrorists we have to worry about, it's child preditors and the like. So if they stop me, I'm game to answer any question they might have.

 

[rynd]

It probably doesn't matter anyways, I'll bet Geocaching will be compleatly outlawed in the US. within 5~10 years anyway.

[+Robespierre]

I ran into a smallish tw this summer, small park, near a school, and ONE NASTY NEIGHBOR - the cops were OK and knew but the cache was closed because of an idiot. I think it's best not to be there.

[bogleman]

Here you go, there are good and bad caches everywhere. The biggest problem that I see is the amount of time spent in a high traffic area/questionable. If you spend a lot of time poking-nosing around somewhere, someone will be watching. Just like the little old lady that lives next door to you. As for the Walmart incident I think they pulled the trigger on that one. If it was a micro on the outside of the light pole they can see it, someone had a little too much free time. Notifying LEO about caches would do nothing but waste your time and frustrate you. If LEO's are notified or observe suspicious activity they WILL investigate regardless of a cache or not - THATS THEIR JOB. Additionally it's not like they would even care about a cache, look in a 10 mile area your local LEO's patrol area and you tell me if you are going to search through all those cache pages to see if you were looking for a cache or trying to burglarize the business - which one is easier???? The LEO was and will follow you around, they will check your registration, observe your activity - oh by the way make sure your vehicle is up to current inspection standards. If you are stopped, be honest about what you are doing. Enough of the rambling, go after the cache, check the area first, drive by and look at what is around and who is around. Don't go fumbling around like a bunch of pigs rooting through a feed trough. You only bring attention to yourself, be discrete and respect the area that you are searching. It's a game and you can quit anytime you want, if you don't like the area LEAVE.

[+Recdiver]

It probably doesn't matter anyways, I'll bet Geocaching will be compleatly outlawed in the US. within 5~10 years anyway.

Then only outlaws will geocache. Game on.

[+wimseyguy]

At first, I was going to respond that the police have ways to tell if you're a real geocacher or just using this as a cover story. For example, they can ask to see your GPSr or make you explain geocaching to them (pretending they've never heard of it). Then it occurred to me, what if the real perv turned out to also be a real geocacher?

 

Why then someone would tell LE about it!

 

This past week I spoke with three seperate police officers, and a supervisor at a rest area off the interstate. All of them were totally cool with what I was doing once I 'splained it, and one of the LEO's broke into a big grin as soon as I said geocaching-he was already aware of us.

 

Geocaching will never be outlawed. They can already track where we are from our GPSr's, and they know where we are and who with at all times.

Why would they give up that control?

[+Kit Fox]

Geeze, I met driven1 for the first time this weekend and I'm surprised the whole picnic wasn't raided (JK)

 

I do have to agree on some of the micros that have been showing up recently. Dead end streets in residential areas, tiny parks in residential areas, close to power stations, parks where only younger kids frequent, not to mention the drive by micros. Those are the ones planted by driving by and tossing them out the window and reading the GPS at the same time.

This post hits the nail on the head.

 

If some cachers would take a moment to think before they place a cache on cul de sacs, on playground equipment, in drive thrus, in vacant lots next to houses or in full view of the public.

 

I don't subscribe to the theory of increasing the hide difficulty, "due to muggles."

 

The best litmus test I have heard in regards to cache placement is this, "If they were doing a documentary about geocaching, would you use your cache as an example?"

 

If the answer is no, then maybe you should rethink your hide.

 

Another thing that I have been doing is being honest in my logs. If the cache placement is bad, I say why. Gone are the days of "TNSL thanks" logs, for crappy caches.

[CoyoteRed]

We've had our plates run while in the woods. An out of place vehicle parked along a country road is suspicious--especially with out-of-state plates.

 

We've never had a problem with an officer.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Anybody besides me that thinks that it is a GOOD thing that the cops are a bit more suspicious these days????

 

We aren't doing anything wrong. A quick hello to the local officer isn't such a bad thing.

 

I was questioned by a cop for suspicious activity while planting a cache 20 miles from the nearest town along a seldom traveled road. Not limited to urban areas. Again we aren't doing anything wrong....

Nope. Keep thinking of the quote attributed to Ben Franklin:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty, nor safety."

 

Common sense, relative to modern society, should definitely be used placing caches. But the rampant hysteria is frightening. We are quickly becoming a police state. Fear is an important tool for this to happen.

 

I've done great urban micros. I've done pathetic ones. The same is true of rural caches. I will agree that there seem to be too many micros, when larger caches could be accommodated. Makes it hard to find places for travel bugs.

 

Yes, I have been questioned by police, but mostly for searching for benchmarks. "You're not allowed to hang out on a bridge." Not his juristiction, and I'd like to see that law in print. But, as has been said here, if you don't feel right looking for the cache, then ignore it.

 

Banning urban micros would play right into Ben's quote.

[+pdxmarathonman]

I fully appreciate the senitment that a few have inidcated: If you're not doing anything wrong, then why be freaked out by having to talk with a police officer?

 

One of my favorite urban micro caches was just outside a fire station. The firemen (they were all male) came out after I left to see what I was looking for, so I came back since I could tell they were enjoying the situation. It turns out they didn't know what it was, but had seen a "strange guy taking pictures of dolls (aka TBs)" a few days earlier.

 

Fun stuff if you have the right demeanor.

[Frankyguy]

[quote name=

Nope. Keep thinking of the quote attributed to Ben Franklin:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty' date=' nor safety."

 

Common sense, relative to modern society, should definitely be used placing caches. But the rampant hysteria is frightening. We are quickly becoming a police state. Fear is an important tool for this to happen.

 

I've done great urban micros. I've done pathetic ones. The same is true of rural caches. I will agree that there seem to be too many micros, when larger caches could be accommodated. Makes it hard to find places for travel bugs.

 

Yes, I have been questioned by police, but mostly for searching for benchmarks. "You're not allowed to hang out on a bridge." Not his juristiction, and I'd like to see that law in print. But, as has been said here, if you don't feel right looking for the cache, then ignore it.

 

Banning urban micros would play right into Ben's quote. [/quote]

 

While I am all for National Security I find that it is getting a bit out of hand lately and I tend to agree with you and Ben.

[+Highpointer]

Another thing that I have been doing is being honest in my logs. If the cache placement is bad, I say why. Gone are the days of "TNSL thanks" logs, for crappy caches.

Did I do the appropriate action when I made a return visit to this cache in Phoenix, Grandma Left the Building?

 

Log entry of Sept. 12, 2005

Edited September 13, 2005 by Highpointer

[+pdxmarathonman]

Another thing that I have been doing is being honest in my logs. If the cache placement is bad, I say why. Gone are the days of "TNSL thanks" logs, for crappy caches.

Did I do the appropriate action when I made a return visit to this cache in Phoenix, Grandma Left the Building?

 

Log entry of Sept. 12, 2005

Probably. Except for the lengthy pontification

[+Highpointer]

Thank you for the comment. Edited the log entry to remove the pontification.

[+LarryGC]

Get a dog. Get a MALE dog. He will pee on everything that could possibly have a cache in or on or under it, and you won't look quite so supicious lingering around if you've got Fido sniffing the light pole!

 

Also, get some kids...we can spend all the time we want in parks, and even climb around on and under the equipment, and no one looks at us funny becuse we have kids with us!

 

Or, if you take up smoking, you'll have an excuse to lurk in back alleys, on loading docks, and near guardrails at rest areas.

 

And many times has the camera saved the day for us. The bigger and more showy the better. When people walk by, look through your viewfinder. Move a few feet, then look through it again. You can even move to odd locations, like the other side of the guardrail, on top of a retaining wall, or go through the bushes to "get a better shot" if you pretend to take photos!

Excellent advice! I just started. I went to my first local cache alone and ran into a guy with his dog, no camera, no kid, just my GPS in hand. He didn't say anything so he must have known what was going on.

 

Then I took my son and camera with me and it felt so much more comfortable.

 

Good idea with faking pictures!

[+Criminal]

Wouldn't it be better to ban idiots?

[CoyoteRed]

Wouldn't it be better to ban idiots?

But that would cut into Jeremy's revenue.

[+Isonzo Karst]

If more hiders and finders read The geocreed some of the weirder cache locations might be avoided. I promised myself that I wouldn't hit anybody over the head with it - so far I've only linked to it twice in logs - both times for playground caches ON THE EQUIPMENT. Neither hide lasted 2 weeks, so I'm not going to bother in future telling owners what a lousy idea that is. The kids themselves will take care of those hides.

[rynd]

They can already track where we are from our GPSr's,

You do know that GPSr doesen't work that way?

[+Renegade Knight]

They can already track where we are from our GPSr's,

You do know that GPSr doesen't work that way?

Ah, but your cell phone does work that way now.

[rynd]

They can already track where we are from our GPSr's,

You do know that GPSr doesen't work that way?

Ah, but your cell phone does work that way now.

Got me there.

[CoyoteRed]

They can already track where we are from our GPSr's,

You do know that GPSr doesen't work that way?

Ah, but your cell phone does work that way now.

That's why I keep mind wrapped in tin foil.

[+The Leprechauns]

They can already track where we are from our GPSr's,

You do know that GPSr doesen't work that way?

Ah, but your cell phone does work that way now.

That's why I keep mind mine wrapped in tin foil.

That is a GREAT typo! ROFL

 

Your mind being wrapped in tinfoil explains a lot of your forum posts, similar to how my view of Mopar's feet explains a lot of mine.

[rynd]

They can already track where we are from our GPSr's,

You do know that GPSr doesen't work that way?

Ah, but your cell phone does work that way now.

That's why I keep mind wrapped in tin foil.

Or better yet, turned off unless I need to make a call.

[CoyoteRed]

They can already track where we are from our GPSr's,

You do know that GPSr doesen't work that way?

Ah, but your cell phone does work that way now.

That's why I keep mind mine wrapped in tin foil.

That is a GREAT typo! ROFL

 

Your mind being wrapped in tinfoil explains a lot of your forum posts, similar to how my view of Mopar's feet explains a lot of mine.

ROFLMAO!

 

I should take Jeremy's advise and proofread my posts before hitting Add Reply!

 

I blame it on the syndrome where you mistype perfectly spelled, but wrong, words. It's like typos, but instead of the wrong letter, the whole word is wrong. I never did that before I learned to touch type. Is there a word for this syndrome? (Other than "dumba**?")

[+driven1]

Wow! This has been interesting! Have seen everything from we were stupid to the cache placement was stupid, to Jeremy would lose revenue if stupid people were banned instead of Urban Caches.

 

Just to clarify, the park was a public park. The only thing we did while we were there was got out of the van, looked to get an idea of what area the cache was in in the park, took a couple of spins on the "Merry-Go-Round, and left. Nothing of a suspicious nature other than we were there. Planned on going back to the park later to actually look for the cache when there weren't any Muggles around. Changed our minds on that.

 

We were not "freaked out" by having to speak to the Trooper, however, if you know anything at all about Pennsylvania State Troopers, you probably should be a little "Freaked" when they do stop you. The Trooper that we spoke to was cool about it after he understood what we were doing.

 

The Park incident is what started my thoughts. Is America in such a poor state that everyone is a suspicious person until proven otherwise? And due to that effect, is it wise to place Urban Caches because of it? Do we shy away from Urban Caches or do we continue on as we have and suffer whatever consequences that may befall us because of our enthusiasm for the sport? That's the question. Perhaps our friends at GeoCacher Today might like to explore that as a story.

[+Yamahammer]

As long as common sense is followed by both the cache owner and seeker, no sense limiting anything outside the present constraints. ... I've seen joggers get stopped because they took a different route than they had been using and were new to the neighborhood. People browsing the housing market have been stopped. Think about how you drive when you're looking for a house.

 

Someone said earlier, if you don't have anything to hide (not caches), then you have nothing to fear when questioned by the authorities. Hang in there.

 

[+LarryGC]

I should take Jeremy's advise and proofread my posts before hitting Add Reply!

 

I blame it on the syndrome where you mistype perfectly spelled, but wrong, words. It's like typos, but instead of the wrong letter, the whole word is wrong. I never did that before I learned to touch type. Is there a word for this syndrome? (Other than "dumba**?")

I call them "wordos"

[+LarryGC]

As long as common sense is followed by both the cache owner and seeker, no sense limiting anything outside the present constraints. ... I've seen joggers get stopped because they took a different route than they had been using and were new to the neighborhood. People browsing the housing market have been stopped. Think about how you drive when you're looking for a house.

 

Someone said earlier, if you don't have anything to hide (not caches), then you have nothing to fear when questioned by the authorities. Hang in there.

 

I guess it all depends where you are and what the LEO thinks you're doing before you even get a chance to open your mouth. I can understand the fear of Penn LEOs... NJ... NY... Guilty of doing SOMETHING unless you can get them to listen before their ego gets too far engaged. One off sounding remark and they'll flatten you. Words, demeanor, how you're dressed and your intial facial reactions all play into it.

 

I think I'll continue not caching alone, it's a lot easier to explain when you have a young one with you, than if you're prowling about alone.

[+cache_test_dummies]

Do we shy away from Urban Caches or do we continue on as we have and suffer whatever consequences that may befall us because of our enthusiasm for the sport?

We continue on.

 

But whether we are talking about an urban micro or an ammo box 3 miles into the woods, I'll also continue to remain aware of my surroundings, and always act accordingly.

[+cache_test_dummies]

Wouldn't it be better to ban idiots?

Hey! What just happend to my account?

 

[+4leafclover]

Wouldn't it be better to ban idiots?

Hey! What just happend to my account?

 

some one is pulling your leg....

 

ETS: or you're pulling ours...

Edited September 13, 2005 by 4leafclover

[+The Leprechauns]

I should take Jeremy's advise and proofread my posts before hitting Add Reply!

 

I blame it on the syndrome where you mistype perfectly spelled, but wrong, words.  It's like typos, but instead of the wrong letter, the whole word is wrong.  I never did that before I learned to touch type.  Is there a word for this syndrome?  (Other than "dumba**?")

I call them "wordos"

The time which elapses between hitting the "submit" button on a forum post or the "send" button on an e-mail, and noticing your typo, is called an "ohnosecond".

[+Sean Connery]

It probably doesn't matter anyways, I'll bet Geocaching will be compleatly outlawed in the US. within 5~10 years anyway. 

They can have my GPSr when they can pry it from my cold, dead fingers.