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Where's George Hates Geocaching

Bob&TheGang

By Bob&TheGang
in General geocaching topics

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carleenp

+carleenp

Posted
Posted (edited)
Who'se torting who?

I have never seen tort used as a verb before! :P;)

 

BTW, and not aimed at anyone in particular; just in general: Tort law would not carry over to law on damage of property or to criminal law for theft of property. Personal injury involves injury to a person. Injury to their property falls under a different body of law.

 

Standard Disclaimer: I am not providing legal advice or services and am simply commenting on my amusment of the word tort as a verb. I will have to use it that way with my co-workers sometime. Oh and then there is the yummy torte I might have as a snack later.....

Edited by carleenp
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Fraverco

+Fraverco

Posted
Posted (edited)

;) I hope I don't get flamed for this, but.. :P

 

I believe that it's wrong for any Geocacher to use a WG$ in a cache.

 

It's the Same as stamping & entering 100's of $1 and immediately depositing them into a Bank.. (Which is stated in the WG Rules as a no-no and grounds for account termination.

 

Imagine scientists attaching a tracking band on a birds leg, to watch the Migratory patterns.. And some EVIL POACHERS shoot and Kill these birds, and put them in the freezer...

 

Sounds familiar??

 

Another WG$ shot down..

 

If I ever find any WG$ in a cache, I'll make sure I'll set them free..

And I'll replace each of them with something from my swag.

 

Swag In. (WG) Cash Out...

 

To the folks who keep using WG$ for tracking Caches: Buy a Travel Bug ya Cheap Bum! :P

 

Flame War Disperse! :D

 

James.

Edited by JamesWyatt
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jeepwidow

+jeepwidow

Posted
Posted

If I ever find any WG$ in a cache, I'll make sure I'll set them free..

And I'll replace each of them with something from my swag.

 

James.

I hope you spend them because the few WG dollars I've put in caches I have not expected them to be re-cached. They should be spent! That was my intentions anyway. I've even noted in the log that I want them spent and not placed in another cache. What fun would that be for the finder?

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Renegade Knight

+Renegade Knight

Posted
Posted
...Ah Ha, just as I thought you can't quote code...

I head back from the attorney. This is a paraphrase. I did not want to quote exactly for reasons that other attorneys probably understand.

 

To quote laws he would need to know the juristiction. They vary. (However I am unwilling to ask them to spend more time than they already have over a forum debate.)

 

In general: Private property interests exist in items regardless of where the property is located. It’s what lets you drive your car off your own property or hang your jacket on a rack at a social function. The interest allows for private property rights. It also does not matter that others are allowed to access the personal property.

 

Abandoned property is the exception to the rule. Most communities have laws that govern what constitutes abandoned property. Those same laws also typically detail exactly how abandoned property is dealt with. Abandoned property is not free for the taking. Using the car analogy a car breaks down and is left on the side of the road. It’s not abandoned. If a certain amount of time passes it may become abandoned as defined by the law. Joe Blow can not come along and claim the car after it’s been declared legally abandoned. If Joe at any time claimed it for himself he could and would be charged with grand theft.

 

This is my interpretation.

 

A cache is personal property until and unless it’s be abandoned under the law. Once abandoned a government agency will take ownership. At no time during the process is a cache ever not personal property under the protection of the law. The enforcement of the law is another matter.

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Fraverco

+Fraverco

Posted
Posted
I hope you spend them because the few WG dollars I've put in caches I have not expected them to be re-cached. They should be spent!

 

Of couse... Re-Released into the Wild..

 

Born free, as free as the wind blows

As free as the grass grows

Born free to follow your heart (COUGH!) Spent Free...........

 

O la paloma blanca, I'm just a buck in the sky.O la paloma blanca, over the mountains I fly. Yes, no one can take my freedom away...

;):P:P

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Where's George?

Where's George?

Posted
Posted
I head back from the attorney. 

 

Thanks for getting more detail. What you posted makes sense.

 

But what I (and others) jumped on a few pages back was when you called my statements "misguided reality" and how cache removal could be a felony.

 

Maybe if a cache was worth more than $1000 it would be grand theft (a felony).

 

And if caches were worth that much, I doubt anyone would be leaving them unattended in the woods. And if they did, there would probably be a beaten path to the cache by people wanting to remove them.

 

What makes geocaching work so well is that the caches have little or no value, and therefore aren't the target of petty thieves.

 

Like you say, enforcement is a different issue, and highly unlikely to be prosecuted, which IS the reality. So while the letter of the law may support your arguments, I don't think my "reality" of cache removal was so "misguided".

 

-Hank

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BlueDeuce

+BlueDeuce

Posted
Posted
I believe that it's wrong for any Geocacher to use a WG$ in a cache.

The situation (note I didn't say problem) is that not everyone knows that and very few cachers are going to read this thread. People aren't placing WG in cache out of spite, they think they are 'playing the game'. If we are going to educate the masses let's start with the 105 issues gc.com deals with day to day.

 

The only feasible solution for WG is to control it on their end and that's their business.

 

I'm not going to get worked up about people abusing (not my word) WG dollars. It's gonna happen whether I like it or not.

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deimos444

+deimos444

Posted
Posted
it's possible to create a separate site that allows people to enter and hit GC bills to their hearts content, with a separate and distinct URL, and I can remove all that noise from WG. The back end engine already runs both Where's George? and Where's Willy? (Canadian version of WG), it shouldn't be too hard to expand it to handle another site with separate rules, reports and database.

:P Now there is communication and give and take.

It's amazing how primates can start with hostile posturing and eventually come to an understanding.

Good job Hank!

I knew you could do it! ;)

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tozainamboku

+tozainamboku

Posted
Posted
I head back from the attorney. 

 

Thanks for getting more detail. What you posted makes sense.

 

But what I (and others) jumped on a few pages back was when you called my statements "misguided reality" and how cache removal could be a felony.

 

Maybe if a cache was worth more than $1000 it would be grand theft (a felony).

 

And if caches were worth that much, I doubt anyone would be leaving them unattended in the woods. And if they did, there would probably be a beaten path to the cache by people wanting to remove them.

 

What makes geocaching work so well is that the caches have little or no value, and therefore aren't the target of petty thieves.

 

Like you say, enforcement is a different issue, and highly unlikely to be prosecuted, which IS the reality. So while the letter of the law may support your arguments, I don't think my "reality" of cache removal was so "misguided".

 

-Hank

I think Hank's analogy of taking caches works however. We have had problems with "cache pirates". These have been people (I think most are adolescent boys) who thought that taking caches and holding them for ransom was a neat modification to the game of geocaching. In this respect, I can see how Hank might feel about some people who think that taking a Where's George bill and puting it in a cache is a neat modification to tracking bills at Where's George. We may think that its neat to have a trade item other than a travel bug that can be tracked at some web site other than geocaching.com, but that doesn't mean that some else may feel we are messing up their game.

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The Leprechauns

+The Leprechauns

Posted
Posted

I kinda sorta wish that the discussion of "Where's George?" and the discussion of who owns a geocache were in separate threads, because both subjects are interesting. My two cents on "ownership": I have four caches that are hidden pursuant to written permits whereby I signed a legally binding agreement to be responsible for monitoring the site and repairing any damage caused by people seeking MY geocache. The State of Pennsylvania certainly regards that cache as being MY property, for which I am responsible.

 

OK, that's an extreme example. Most caches aren't hidden with a legal agreement to go along with them. But is the analysis any different for a town park, where I informally talked with the guy at the Parks and Recreations office about geocaching? If there's a problem with the cache, he will call me, not the Sanitation Department. Their job is to keep after trash. My job is to keep after my geocaches.

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Renegade Knight

+Renegade Knight

Posted
Posted (edited)
RK, it doesn't have to be considered "abandoned property" to be a legal problem.  It could easily be considered litter.

 

An Old Post on Litter Laws and Geocaching

Litter is another thing. Probably also defined by law to solve the personal property issue. For one thing I'm not going to activly claim ownership of the mountain dew bottle that blew out of the back of my truck. I do claim ownership of my caches. (Edit: I read the law posted. Caches are generally not discarded as a part of other operations).

 

Hank, if a cache is worth 3 bucks and a felony starts with $1000 we have had to deal with a felon in my area. They have not gone away and short of that shovel I don't see a solution. That's why I didn't have any patience with your post post on that.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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Shoobie & the Sand Crabs

Shoobie & the Sand Crabs

Posted
Posted
We stopped putting in WG$ for this reason.  We also appropriately trade out any we find and promptly log it and put into circulation.

 

We all should respect the wishes of the WG$ folks as it is their game to be played the way they want it to be played.

I agree with CR...something must be wrong! ;)

 

What if someone evented another game and started to use caches in a manner not intended?

 

El Diablo

yeah I agree but I think he should also put a paragraph in explaining why he doesn't like it.

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Jeremy

Jeremy

Posted
Posted (edited)

The whole cache ownership issue is a red herring, IMO. What it comes down to is mutual respect. Everyone should respect the fact that geocachers feel that they own the caches that they place and everyone should respect the way that the wheresgeorge.com site plays their game.

 

[edit: a red herring isn't the best comparison but I am required to use it once a week. So everyone gets an education, here's the origin of the term]

 

A red herring is an alternative, somewhat old fashioned, name for a smoked herring. Such fish have a very strong smell and were usually known, not as kippers, but as red herrings in many parts of 19th century Britain. Because of their smell they were good at masking other smells; as a result they could easily cover the scent of a fox. A red herring pulled across the trail could divert the hounds onto a false path. Thus, by analogy, the phrase came to be used to describe any false trail
Edited by Jeremy
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Renegade Knight

+Renegade Knight

Posted
Posted
Hank, if a cache is worth 3 bucks and a felony starts with $1000 we have had to deal with a felon in my area.

 

Can you please elaborate?

300 missing caches in my area. I could be off 100 either way. Our cache maggot is a power cacher in his own right, except he keeps the entire cache when he finds it. That's his fun. If this were a normal area those caches and contents would total more than 1000.00. I don't know that that's the cut off for a felony or not. This isn't a normal area, people place caches in anticipation of them being stolen so the value has gone down. It might take 1000 caches to be worth that much. Getting out of town to go find some caches is a joy.

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TeamAO

+TeamAO

Posted
Posted
....puts at risk years of statistics that prove conclusively that the average number of times a WG bill will be logged is just about 0??

 

What are you trying to say here? What statistics?

It's not about statistics, it's about the bills adventure. ;)

 

I'm sorry if I gave into this seemingly endless argument. :P

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wimseyguy

+wimseyguy

Posted
Posted
Now that's funny.  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  B)

I'm done torturing myself reading this thread.

Ditto that. Might just be done Georging as well. Anybody in the NYC area want a free WG stamp? IT'LL BE IN A GEOCACHE!

Hey Joefrog-here's a tortuous idea. Why not use it to create a letterbox hybrid cache? That'll puzzle everyone. Do I stamp a few more bills, or am I supposed to stamp my personal log? Oh I'm soooo confused. :D

 

PS to get back OT and stop being silly (if only for a minute), a while back a local cacher who is a very active georger wanted one of his bills logged into VT, the only state he was missing on his map. But he felt it be an unnatural movement to just hand me the bills, so I suggested dropping them in the airport TB Hotel cache, and I would drop them in caches during my skiing vacation. Mmmm that hot chocolate and beer was good in the lodge. B):laughing:

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Where's George?

Where's George?

Posted
Posted
Think we could end this if the WG link was removed from the GC Resources Page?

 

I wonder if the guy even knows he's listed here?

 

Of course I know it's there. It shows up in my referer logs about 30 times a day.

 

I'd bet Jeremy has even more links back to GC from WG in his logs.

 

It might be better if they were moved out of "Hitchhikers" area and moved to "Other Organizations".

 

And RK, seriously, each (unfortunate) theft of a cache is a separate incident... you can't "add up" all the individual stolen caches to get to some limit where it becomes a felony or grand theft. It can't even be proven that the same person or persons stole all of them, much less convince the police they have any significant value.

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Mustcache

Mustcache

Posted
Posted

I, for one have been a registered "Where's George" user longer than I have been geocaching. The first time I ever heard of geocaching was on the WG web site.

I started noticing some of the bills that were hit on were from a geocache.

As I entered the geocaching world, I naturally started placing WG bills in caches that I have visited. Lately I haven't been doing that. Not because of problems that have arisen (which I was ignorant of [among many other things]), but because the flow of ready cash has slowed down.

Now, knowing the facts that Hank has presented, I am willing to stop placing WG bills until a time where things are straightened out (if ever).

 

:laughing:

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The Jester

+The Jester

Posted
Posted
...

 

And RK, seriously, each (unfortunate) theft of a cache is a separate incident... you can't "add up" all the individual stolen caches to get to some limit where it becomes a felony or grand theft. It can't even be proven that the same person or persons stole all of them, much less convince the police they have any significant value.

So a pickpocket shouldn't be guilty of anything more than a misdomener because you can't "add up" all his thefts?

 

And your line about "convince the police ..." is the same point RK made, but it doesn't change the law, just the enforcement of it.

 

As a side note, around here felony is $300+ and deadly force may be used to stop a felony theft (as the shop owner who stopped a guy who grabbed a couple of VCR's with a shotgun blast to the backside).

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Renegade Knight

+Renegade Knight

Posted
Posted
...And RK, seriously, each (unfortunate) theft of a cache is a separate incident... you can't "add up" all the individual stolen caches to get to some limit where it becomes a felony or grand theft. It can't even be proven that the same person or persons stole all of them, much less convince the police they have any significant value.

What exactly is your point? You seem to be saying that in spite of the law, in spite of how it works, in spite of the magnitude of the problem, in spite of the sheer owner frustration and annoyance, in spite of a lot of people who have lost caches, that it's all a moot point.

 

In that light so is any one bill tracked on your site and why are you upset with such a small percentage of WG bucks that end up in caches. The police don't care, most cachers don't care, the world doesn't care why should you? (That was rhetorical.)

 

Seriously. Do you have a point?

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Where's George?

Where's George?

Posted
Posted
Seriously.  Do you have a point?

 

Yes, my point is this: You made the following assertion on page 1 or 2:

 

I've also had a US District Attorney tell me in no uncertain terms the law does work for caches. With the right kind of backing I could lock you away for exactly the petty thievery you propose. With a bit of planning I can ensure it's a felony.

 

You tried to bully everyone into thinking, somehow, someway, under the perfect set of scenarios, that stealing a single cache would be a felony.

 

When you were challenged on that point, you came back with an argument that the total value of all caches stolen from your area would be more than the limit of a felony. My point is that that logic doesn't really matter according to the law. I'm not belittling the magnitude of the problem, nor the seriousness.. just stating how the law would actually be applied in my "misguided reality".

 

So your argument went from 'stealing a single cache would be a felony' to 'stealing alot of caches might add up to the value equivalent to a felony'. The law simply would never be applied in that manner, so what's your point?

 

So a pickpocket shouldn't be guilty of anything more than a misdomener because you can't "add up" all his thefts?

 

I believe that's how the law works and is applied in those cases. But if a pickpocketer is caught multiple times, and has multple convictions, then he could face more serious charges due to multiple convictions, not because he picketpocked 10 times the same day. There's a big difference there.

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deimos444

+deimos444

Posted
Posted

:laughing: Well Hank, here is my transaction with you folks.

If I find a stamped bill I will immediately put it back into circulation and log your website as to time, date and place acquired ( if your coding allows this ).

It's been fun pushing your blood pressure up for the last few days and I hope you can see that most of us are dedicated geocachers and we mean you no harm.

However a muggled cache is a lot more personal than a misplaced bill.

Hence the emotional responses.

I don't imagine anyone is going to hit you over the head with a shovel unless you are caught in the act of trashing a geocache.

I personally would probably strip you naked and send you on your way but that's 20 years of military experience talking.

Have a nice day and keep your hands off our caches unless you are acting as part of our process. :D

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Quiggle

+Quiggle

Posted
Posted

From the Forum Guidelines:

 

Some things to keep in mind when posting:

 

Keep on topic: Responses to a particular thread should be on-topic and pertain to the discussion. Users should use the New Topic button to start a new discussion which would otherwise be off-topic in the current thread. Threads that are off topic may be closed by the moderator.

 

Private Discussions: Sometimes, a discussion thread strays off into a friendly dialogue or a heated debate among a very small number of users. For these exchanges, use the private discussion feature that is provided through the Groundspeak forums, or the Geocaching.com e-mail system. Public forum posts should be reserved for matters of interest to the general community.

 

The topic that was opened is about Where's George? bills and Geocaching, not about cache theft, felonies and misdemeanors, etc. If you want to discuss those issues, start a separate thread or take it to PM/email.

 

Please get the thread back On-Topic.

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Jeremy

Jeremy

Posted
Posted
I'd bet Jeremy has even more links back to GC from WG in his logs.

 

It might be better if they were moved out of "Hitchhikers" area and moved to "Other Organizations".

You raise a good point. It is put in there along with "other hitchhikers" which may give folks the impression that a Where's George bill can go into a cache. If you want I can remove it completely as any association with Geocaching.com (even in the "other organizations" section) will give people the false impression that the two sites can intermingle (which obviously they can't). If you want I can remove the reference for you.

 

This is in no way a "nyeah nyeah, if you don't play nice I'll remove the link" sort of thing. I can certainly see the issue. Maybe a compromise would be a link after the link that says (read where's george's requirements for geocachers) or something that points to the reasoning behind the "ban."

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Jeremy

Jeremy

Posted
Posted
The topic that was opened is about Where's George? bills and Geocaching, not about cache theft, felonies and misdemeanors, etc. If you want to discuss those issues, start a separate thread or take it to PM/email.

 

Please get the thread back On-Topic.

I agree. Besides you're only spinning your wheels at this point. Just agree to disagree or take it offline.

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Where's George?

Where's George?

Posted
Posted
It might be better if they were moved out of "Hitchhikers" area and moved to "Other Organizations".

 

You raise a good point. It is put in there along with "other hitchhikers" which may give folks the impression that a Where's George bill can go into a cache.

 

I think just listing the sites under "Other Organizations" would work just fine.

 

I think if we try to include a disclaimer or rules, it might needlessly confuse people.

 

Just taking them out of the "hitchhikers" and moving them to "Other Organizations" would be good enough for me.

 

Thanks.

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TMAACA

+TMAACA

Posted
Posted
....puts at risk years of statistics that prove conclusively that the average number of times a WG bill will be logged is just about 0??

 

What are you trying to say here? What statistics?

 

Said another way (and this is long sorry):

 

My experience with WG has always been log a bill and never hear about it again. This is not suprising given the fact that the average lifespan of a bill is 18-22 months and in that 18-22 months my bill has to find its way into the hands of someone who pays attention to their $1 bills AND can operate a computer AND are interested in opening an account and logging it into the system. For any given bill, I would say that the odds of this happening have to be pretty close to zero.

 

Now take a bill dropped in a geocache, granted it is out of the general circulation of currency - however you choose to define that. Then the argument seems to be that these bills, that are out of circulation, are problematic because they are more active than the ones in circulation?? Maybe it's just me, but I would rather see the bill traveling (however it goes) if I took the time to log it. In fact that is why I dropped a WG into a cache; to see if I could actually get a hit on one of those things (I haven't)

 

Finally at any given point in time there are approximately 8 Billion $1 bills in circulation that can be logged at WG. Today there are less than 200,000 geocaches worldwide on Geocaching.com. How big a problem can this be?

 

I am glad that you are looking into setting up something to track the WG geocache $ separately. I think you may find it is a much more interesting game!

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EcoPit

+EcoPit

Posted
Posted

I do not understand how this thread could have gone on for so long (I guess the off-topic ramblings help)--there just seems no room for debate on the issues.

 

Hank hates Geocaching. So what? That is his opinion, and he is absolutely entitled to it. I think Where's George? is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of. Again, so what? Each of us is entitled to our opinions and they in no way change the others' appreciation for his respective hobby.

 

He did express his opinion to Bob&3LittleBears, but it isn't as if he cold-contacted Bob&3LittleBears with a negative note--this was a solicited response. And, Hank was in no way rude or disrespectful (in my opinion) towards Bob&3LittleBears, he just expressed his dislike for GC and declined contributing to a GC event. Nothing wrong there that I see.

 

The money does not belong to Hank or any of the people who logged it on WG. Whether it belongs to the person holding it, the Federal Reserve, the government or whoever, no one can stop you from putting it in a cache if you want to. Do whatever you want with your money.

 

Hank runs the WG site and game/activity/whatever. He has the final say over how bills get logged on his site. No question. If he does not want bills logged on the sute from caches that is completely his right.

 

That's how I see it anyway.

 

And P.S. I am fairly new but I got the crippled children reference.

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Jeremy

Jeremy

Posted
Posted
I think just listing the sites under "Other Organizations" would work just fine.

 

I think if we try to include a disclaimer or rules, it might needlessly confuse people.

 

Just taking them out of the "hitchhikers" and moving them to "Other Organizations" would be good enough for me.

I respectfully disagree. If your intent is to reduce the issues around Where's George and Geocaching there seems to be some education needed.

 

I don't mind moving it over but it solves nothing when it comes to where's george bills and your definition of natural circulation. I for one would like to see less angst and more education seems to be the solution here.

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Where's George?

Where's George?

Posted
Posted
For any given bill, I would say that the odds of this happening have to be pretty close to zero.

 

The site wide "hit rate", or the chances of any one bill getting hit, is 9.79%. Of the 69,140,127 unique bills entered into WG, 7,701,138 of them have been found and logged.

 

I have no idea why you think that is "close to zero". If it were, in fact, "close to zero" the website and entire game just would not work.

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ju66l3r

ju66l3r

Posted
Posted
I think just listing the sites under "Other Organizations" would work just fine.

 

I think if we try to include a disclaimer or rules, it might needlessly confuse people.

 

Just taking them out of the "hitchhikers" and moving them to "Other Organizations" would be good enough for me.

I respectfully disagree. If your intent is to reduce the issues around Where's George and Geocaching there seems to be some education needed.

 

I don't mind moving it over but it solves nothing when it comes to where's george bills and your definition of natural circulation. I for one would like to see less angst and more education seems to be the solution here.

Jeremy, maybe when you move the link it should look like this:

 

Where's George? (Disclaimer)

 

I think that would be the prudent thing to do and accomplishes what you're looking for, for anyone who has used this site to get to that one.

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