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Multi Tool As Swag?


Laughing Bird

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While I love 'em and would love to find one for trade, they are on the list of forbidden items....They are knives.

 

From the FAQ:

 

Use your common sense in most cases. Explosives, ammo, knives, drugs, and alcohol shouldn't be placed in a cache. Respect the local laws. All ages of people hide and seek caches, so use some thought before placing an item into a cache.

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From the guide lines

 

Use your common sense in most cases. Explosives, fireworks, ammo, lighters, knives (including pocket knives and multi-tools), drugs, alcohol or other illicit material shouldn't be placed in a cache. As always respect the local laws. Geocaching is a family activity and cache contents should be suitable for all ages.

 

While they are guiclines, for the most part they are treated as rules :P

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Oh No!! We found a rusted pocket knife the other day on the way to a cache adn thought it would be okay to leave it for someone to clean up and use if they wanted to.

 

I hope I don't get kicked out. It didn't even dawn on me. We live in the country, and our 9 yo carries a small pocket knife because there is always something that needs to be taken care of around here.

 

I'm wondering if I need to plan a trip out there next week and get it out of there. The probably is, it is 45 miles from our house. Gas!!!!

 

What should I do???

 

I'm freakin' out here!!

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Oh No!! We found a rusted pocket knife the other day on the way to a cache adn thought it would be okay to leave it for someone to clean up and use if they wanted to.

 

Its never OK to put garbage in a cache, knife or not. If its garbage, throw it away, not in a cache.

 

So, stupid me, I found some on sale camping multitools, snatched them up thinking of swag. I even (crudely) hand painted them with the Geocaching symbol.

 

Do they have knife blades? I bought a bunch of multi tools a while ago that didn't have knife blades. In that case they would be just fine to place a cache.

Edited by briansnat
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There seems to be some confusion on what the applicable rules/guidelines are on this subject. They can be found here in the "Cache Contents" section of the Geocache Listing Guidelines:

 

Cache Contents

 

Use your common sense in most cases. Explosives, fireworks, ammo, lighters, knives (including pocket knives and multi-tools), drugs, alcohol or other illicit material shouldn't be placed in a cache. As always respect the local laws. Geocaching is a family activity and cache contents should be suitable for all ages.

 

Food items are ALWAYS a BAD IDEA. Animals have better noses than humans, and in some cases caches have been chewed through and destroyed because food items (or items that smell like food) are in the cache. Even the presence of mint flavored dental floss has led to destruction of one cache.

 

If the original cache contents list any of the above items or other questionable items, or if a cache is reported to have the questionable items, the cache may be disabled, and the owner of the cache will be contacted and asked to remove the questionable items before the cache is enabled.

 

Reviewers can and do hold up the listing of new caches if any of the prohibited items are listed in the cache contents, until the owner removes them. But for existing caches, we rely on the receipt of complaints about problem situations. We aren't the cache police and we don't scan the logs looking for mentions of multi-tools. Please don't worry about getting banned from the website, or making a 90-mile round trip to retrieve a knife left in a cache. Maybe edit your log to ask the next person to remove it? Or, if you see a prohibited item, trade it out of the cache. Or, if appropriate, simply take it (as in the case of a bullet, for example)

 

A large pocketknife left in an ammo box at the end of a five-mile hike is not likely to end geocaching as we know it. More likely, a toy pen knife left in a tupperware in the park across from the school will cause a problem. Use your common sense. Report problem situations to your local reviewer if you feel that action is warranted. For example, I had a discussion with someone who was leaving knives as signature items in *every* cache in his area, as a result of another geocacher complaining about this.

Edited by Keystone
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Thanks Keystone & Renegade! As for the knife being garbage, it wasn't. It was a nice knife and we would have kept it except we all aready own a slew of them. It just needed to be cleaned up. It was fairly new, it had just been left out a little long and needed a good sharpening and cleaning - something I'm sure most any geocacher would gladly do if they wanted one.

 

I'll definitely edit the log.

 

Thanks so much!

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I've seen a few multi-tool items without a blade and some of them could be very handy on a long day. The multi-bit screwdrivers that stow the bits in the handle, for example. You con find some carpy ones at teh dollar stores or upgrade from there. Look around. If you want to make a high-dollar signature item and order some bulk you can go on-line and check some of the promotional and incentive items sites.

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Fer Cryin' Out Loud!

 

Let's not get too carried away with PC nonsense here.....a multi-tool which happens to include a knife (think of it as being an extremely useful tool rather than a "weapon" since most things found in the toolchest could be placed in the latter category) is hardly in the same category as: ammo, explosives, fireworks, etc. If you're afraid Junior will hurt himself, tell him to pick up the McToy instead.

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Fer Cryin' Out Loud!

 

Let's not get too carried away with PC nonsense here.....a multi-tool which happens to include a knife (think of it as being an extremely useful tool rather than a "weapon" since most things found in the toolchest could be placed in the latter category) is hardly in the same category as: ammo, explosives, fireworks, etc. If you're afraid Junior will hurt himself, tell him to pick up the McToy instead.

The idea here is that many of the guidelines were created to be extra-sensitive towards those who do not play our game and see things as we do. Keep in mind that, in essence, this game is about leaving nice litter in the woods. If we have to bend over backwards to keep the non-players from getting all huffy about us then we just have to grab our ankles and do the limbo.

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it's important to learn the difference between those things that are just guidelines, and those things that are Guidelines... :D

 

garnering goodwill and support from land managers and local and state and national agencies that can (and do) decide if they wish to allow people to geocache on "their" land is an important part of the work that gc.com does for everybody involved in geocaching...being able to point to the guidelines and talk about safety is an important part of "selling" the concept of geocaching to people outside of the game.

 

nfa-jamie

Edited by NFA
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Fer Cryin' Out Loud!

 

Let's not get too carried away with PC nonsense here.....a multi-tool which happens to include a knife (think of it as being an extremely useful tool rather than a "weapon" since most things found in the toolchest could be placed in the latter category) is hardly in the same category as: ammo, explosives, fireworks, etc. If you're afraid Junior will hurt himself, tell him to pick up the McToy instead.

Sorry, the day is long gone that we can let a kid have a knife, even if they pick it up by accident. Didn't you hear of the 6 year old that grabbed her mother's lunch by mistake a few years ago? When she realized her mistake and did the responsible thing by telling a teacher, she was EXPELLED from school. Why? Her Mom's lunch had an apple with a paring knife. Yeah, a small knife. The girl would have been better off throwing it in the trash so some other kid could have found it and hurt someone, but by doing the right thing she was expelled (I believe she was allowed to return to school a few days later after the lawyers got involved)

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there is also the liability issue. let say some kid find a knife in a cache and ends up getting cut with it, some one is going to wind up in court getting sued for placing a knife in a cache, it could be the cache hider, it could be Groundspeak, it could even be the park that the cache was placed in. At least that is what would happen in the U.S.A.

 

As Team GPSaxophone stated

 

Sorry, the day is long gone that we can let a kid have a knife

While working for a reatiler that sold knive for many many years, we had a ploicy of not selling any knives to anyone under the age of 18. Many times grandparents, uncles or aunts would by knives for yougsters as gifts, in most cases the parents whould bring back the knife for an exchange.

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Sorry, the day is long gone that we can let a kid have a knife

Then don't. I guess I made the mistake of assuming little kids might actually have supervising adults around when they geocache.

Yes, I think that assumption is correct. However, how many caches are found by muggles?

 

And even if it's not a kid who happens upon the cache and finds a knife, the bigger problem will be the adult to finds it and freaks out because someone is hiding knives in their park, hiking trail, nature area, etc., etc., etc.

 

When dealing with the public, sometimes we make sacrifices. This is one of those cases as the guidelines have been created.

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Sorry, the day is long gone that we can let a kid have a knife

Then don't. I guess I made the mistake of assuming little kids might actually have supervising adults around when they geocache.

There was a post here a day or two ago where some the poster found his first cache a few years ago when he was 13 or 14. He and his buddy weren't looking for the cache, they were just playing in the woods. They did mention finding liquor in the cache though. ;)

 

edit: :huh: actually it was part of the /. article here:

 

http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=160908&cid=13469322

Edited by robert
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IMHO... "weapons"? A hammer can be a weapon. A pipewrench can be a weapon. A screwdriver can be a weapon. A rock or stick picked up on the trail can be a weapon. A knife is a TOOL. Obviously, the powers that be disagree with me on this point, but I think that the knife rule goes too far. OK, no switchblades, no bayonettes perhaps, but a pocketknife? The Boy Scouts still have knives, don't they???.

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The Boy Scouts still have knives, don't they???.

Only after they convince a leader that they know all of the safety rules. And they can lose the right to carry a knife if they don't follow said rules.

 

I think most folks here agree with you that it's a tool and that many other items could be used as weapons. However, enough land managers have pitched fits that TPTB have decided it's a forbidden item.

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I think it depends on where you live and the cache in question. Where I grew up kids got pocket knives as early as age 5 and still do, if you live near a big city I am sure its a different story, same goes for things like bb-guns, slingshots, and all those other terrible weapons that those who grew up in the city tend to fear.

 

If the cache is at the end of a good long hike in rough country I fail to see the problem, its not going to get muggled, and even if it does the person finding it would probably just take the knife / multitool because they know its useful, actually, if a small child finds the cache in such an area he is probably already carrying a pocket knife, either that or you have a much bigger problem than the pocket knife.

 

As for land managers, I've yet to meet one in 42 years that would consider a pocket knife a weapon, of course, I have not met any land managers who manage city parks so it very well may be the case in some areas.

 

Now, if we could only enforce some kind of McToy ban, that would be great ! :huh:

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I think it depends on where you live and the cache in question. Where I grew up kids got pocket knives as early as age 5 and still do, if you live near a big city I am sure its a different story, same goes for things like bb-guns, slingshots, and all those other terrible weapons that those who grew up in the city tend to fear.

 

If the cache is at the end of a good long hike in rough country I fail to see the problem, its not going to get muggled, and even if it does the person finding it would probably just take the knife / multitool because they know its useful, actually, if a small child finds the cache in such an area he is probably already carrying a pocket knife, either that or you have a much bigger problem than the pocket knife.

 

As for land managers, I've yet to meet one in 42 years that would consider a pocket knife a weapon, of course, I have not met any land managers who manage city parks so it very well may be the case in some areas.

 

Now, if we could only enforce some kind of McToy ban, that would be great ! :lol:

Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

 

BUT it's not about us and our opinions. It's about the rest of the world that we have to be careful of.

 

Like Koo-koos said :

And even if it's not a kid who happens upon the cache and finds a knife, the bigger problem will be the adult to finds it and freaks out because someone is hiding knives in their park, hiking trail, nature area, etc., etc., etc.

 

No booze, no porn, no ammo, no fireworks, no knives. The rules are there not to punish the players but to placate the public.

 

I thoroughly agree that knives can make good swag and have no problems allowing my kids access to a good pocket knife. But all it takes is one do-gooder who needs a cause to follow to find a blade in an ammo box and go marching off to the ranger's office.

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I thoroughly agree that knives can make good swag and have no problems allowing my kids access to a good pocket knife. But all it takes is one do-gooder who needs a cause to follow to find a blade in an ammo box and go marching off to the ranger's office.

Bingo! It's the public perception, not that pocket knives are bad, but that geocaching shouldn't give kids access to things certain adults will find fault with.

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:laughing: Now, maybe its just me, but it seems we still haven't solved the OP problem of how to "legaly,correctly,PCly" leave a multi tool with a knive blade in a cache. So here is my top 6 list to solve his problem:

#6. cut off the blade with a dremel tool.

#5. cut off the blade with a sabre saw using the metal cutting saw blade.

#4. cut off the blade using a table saw with a metal cutting saw blade.

#3. cut uff the blade with a sawzall using metal cutting sawblades.

#2. Use a hacksaw to cut off the blade.

#1. Insert blade into vise, tighten vise, tug on knive handle in back and forth motion until the blade naps off.

 

NOTE: before following any of these methods be sure to follow all known safety procedures including wearing a hardhat. safety glasses, hearing protection, a shop apron, and steel toe shoes. Afterward, take a hand file a smooth down any burrs or sherp edges left on the hilt of the blade. You now have a multitool without a knive blade that you can leave as swag. How cool is that?

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I would love to find a cache that has more useful items in it. I think a multi-tool would be one of them. But I think as people say, these items might be best suited for the more outdoorsey cacher. Placed in a cache that you have the hike to get to. Not one that is in a community park in the 'burbs.

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Laughing Bird:

Just leave an IOU for 1 multitool that can be redeemed via pm/email here. Have the cacher mail you the coupon, and you mail them the multitool. It'd cost...what, maybe a buck, buck-fifty to send it USPS. Beats mutilating or tossing a supply of perfectly good multitools.

 

just my 2 ¢

 

ed to add: I think "no knives" is a silly and overly cautious rule, but kinda justified in our overly litigious society. I'd like to see some kind of rating system; have "kid friendly/family" caches for McToys and sheets of stickers, and "grown-ups" caches, where we could trade currently-prohibited items, within reason.

Edited by Nyarlotep
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Laughing Bird:

Just leave an IOU for 1 multitool that can be redeemed via pm/email here. Have the cacher mail you the coupon, and you mail them the multitool. It'd cost...what, maybe a buck, buck-fifty to send it USPS. Beats mutilating or tossing a supply of perfectly good multitools.

 

just my 2 ¢

Thats a great idea, to be honest, I think people these days would be alot more freaked out about cachers skulking about in parking lots and city parks looking for micros than about finding a multitool in a cache 3 miles from the nearest road.

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Laughing Bird:

Just leave an IOU for 1 multitool that can be redeemed via pm/email here. Have the cacher mail you the coupon, and you mail them the multitool. It'd cost...what, maybe a buck, buck-fifty to send it USPS. Beats mutilating or tossing a supply of perfectly good multitools.

 

just my 2 ¢

 

ed to add: I think "no knives" is a silly and overly cautious rule, but kinda justified in our overly litigious society. I'd like to see some kind of rating system; have "kid friendly/family" caches for McToys and sheets of stickers, and "grown-ups" caches, where we could trade currently-prohibited items, within reason.

Um, let's try this again ...

 

The rule is in place to keep such items out of the boxes. Period. End of issue. It doesn't matter a hill of beans if one thinks it's all sad or silly.

 

There are several varieties of "multi-tools" that do NOT include a blade.

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We keep forgetting that most of our caches are on PUBLIC property and are accessible to the public. That means that everything we do in our caching activities is subject to public scrutiny. Caches are often found by accident. Many a cacher got hooked because he/she found a cache and wondered what was going on.

 

What we are doing is nothing more than a form of creative littering. We go to these public areas and we leave stuff behind. We are obligated to tiptoe very softly because of this.

 

Imagine a cacher being ticketed for littering by a park ranger who just got a nasty letter from some do-gooder soccer mom. Don't think it can't happen. Here in Indiana we lost hundreds of caches in our State parks because some folks got upset at the trails we leave behind. In some areas we've already seen cemeteries declared off-limits because somebody got upset at Uncle Harry being visited by total strangers.

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Um, let's try this again ...

 

The rule is in place to keep such items out of the boxes. Period. End of issue. It doesn't matter a hill of beans if one thinks it's all sad or silly.

 

There are several varieties of "multi-tools" that do NOT include a blade.

"A mind so fine it sticks on every point"

 

 

Your viewpoint is pedantic in that you seem to recognize no differences between cache locations. You just quote the guideline as if it is written on tablets of stone, and loftily dismiss any other opinions on that basis alone.

 

As has been pointed out, there is a vast difference between the deep woods and the city park. Using theoretical examples of "what could happen" is not a valid form of objection. Neither is quoting anecdotes of (supposed) isolated instances of offense. I daresay one could find somebody who would take issue with nearly every aspect of geocaching. I also think that common sense rendering of "rules" is more appropriate than slavish devotion to them.

 

BTW, this preoccupation with "knives" as part of a multi-tool is ridiculous since there are very few items in the tool which can't cause harm, i.e. scissors, screwdrivers, file, saw, etc.

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Thanks Keystone & Renegade! As for the knife being garbage, it wasn't. It was a nice knife and we would have kept it except we all aready own a slew of them. It just needed to be cleaned up. It was fairly new, it had just been left out a little long and needed a good sharpening and cleaning - something I'm sure most any geocacher would gladly do if they wanted one.

 

I'll definitely edit the log.

 

Thanks so much!

Had I found it, I would have picked it up and refurbished it. That would be a good find. :lol:

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Your viewpoint is pedantic in that you seem to recognize no differences between cache locations. You just quote the guideline as if it is written on tablets of stone, and loftily dismiss any other opinions on that basis alone.

 

As has been pointed out, there is a vast difference between the deep woods and the city park. Using theoretical examples of "what could happen" is not a valid form of objection. Neither is quoting anecdotes of (supposed) isolated instances of offense. I daresay one could find somebody who would take issue with nearly every aspect of geocaching. I also think that common sense rendering of "rules" is more appropriate than slavish devotion to them.

 

BTW, this preoccupation with "knives" as part of a multi-tool is ridiculous since there are very few items in the tool which can't cause harm, i.e. scissors, screwdrivers, file, saw, etc.

The real reason for the guideline has been stated before in this thread but you seem to have missed it, so I'll give it a shot.

 

The restriction on knives and multitools exists because of what land managers think could happen. They are the ones who can ban geocaching because of a small pocketknife in a cache. And they have done so in the past, so this isn't some 'ridiculous preoccupation'. Feel free to call them any names you wish, use all the adjectives to describe their views you want, but you might want to remember that many of them also read these forums from time to time.

 

If pointing to guidelines restricting knives in caches makes the people who write the actual rules governing our ability to use public lands more likely to allow our sport in the parks they manage, then I for one am willing to abide by those guidelines.

 

Ron/yumitori

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Your viewpoint is pedantic in that you seem to recognize no differences between cache locations. You just quote the guideline as if it is written on tablets of stone, and loftily dismiss any other opinions on that basis alone.

 

As has been pointed out, there is a vast difference between the deep woods and the city park. Using theoretical examples of "what could happen" is not a valid form of objection. Neither is quoting anecdotes of (supposed) isolated instances of offense. I daresay one could find somebody who would take issue with nearly every aspect of geocaching. I also think that common sense rendering of "rules" is more appropriate than slavish devotion to them.

 

BTW, this preoccupation with "knives" as part of a multi-tool is ridiculous since there are very few items in the tool which can't  cause harm, i.e. scissors, screwdrivers, file, saw, etc.

The real reason for the guideline has been stated before in this thread but you seem to have missed it, so I'll give it a shot.

 

The restriction on knives and multitools exists because of what land managers think could happen. They are the ones who can ban geocaching because of a small pocketknife in a cache. And they have done so in the past, so this isn't some 'ridiculous preoccupation'. Feel free to call them any names you wish, use all the adjectives to describe their views you want, but you might want to remember that many of them also read these forums from time to time.

 

If pointing to guidelines restricting knives in caches makes the people who write the actual rules governing our ability to use public lands more likely to allow our sport in the parks they manage, then I for one am willing to abide by those guidelines.

 

Ron/yumitori

Thank you, Yumitori.

 

"Pedantic?" Me?

 

I sympathize that some want to pretend that this game is being run in a vacuum where only a select few are involved or aware of our activities. It's been a consistent conflict and has bubbled up repeatedly over the years, usually on this very issue of knives in caches.

 

The guidelines are there for the reasons that have been repeatedly stated. They are in place to apply to all caches regardless of their difficulty or likelihood of accidental discovery. This is to prevent people from adopting their own interpretation of the guidelines as they see fit. In order to play this game through this organization we have all agreed to abide by these guidelines.

 

The issue of "anything can be a weapon" is meaningless, and, um, pedantic. Just because anything can be a weapon does not mean we should then start treating unbladed tools, handguns and plastic spider rings as equally dangerous.

 

If you are fond of blades may I suggest you use them as event signature items? That way there can be no question of them ending up on some park rangers desk.

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The restriction on knives and multitools exists because of what land managers think could happen. They are the ones who can ban geocaching because of a small pocketknife in a cache. And they have done so in the past, so this isn't some 'ridiculous preoccupation'.

 

A statement without support. Declaring emphatically that something is the case (even in boldface) hardly qualifies as substantiation. Such is typical of this medium where many "facts" are in fact, mere myth and legend. Where is the documentation that land managers are going bonkers because someone left a mini-multi-tool in a cache? And even if someone somewhere did object, such isolated examples do not constitute what might be called a "major problem." And no, I didn't "miss" the supposed rationale for your viewpoint; I simply don't agree with it.

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A statement without support. Declaring emphatically that something is the case (even in boldface) hardly qualifies as substantiation. Such is typical of this medium where many "facts" are in fact, mere myth and legend. Where is the documentation that land managers are going bonkers because someone left a mini-multi-tool in a cache? And even if someone somewhere did object, such isolated examples do not constitute what might be called a "major problem." And no, I didn't "miss" the supposed rationale for your viewpoint; I simply don't agree with it.

 

The history of the addition of knives and multitools to the guidelines on cache contents is readily available. Feel free to research the subject further in the archives for the documentation you seek.

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The documentation is also in Groundspeak's issue tracking software for incoming complaints from land managers. Quoting Jeremy from past discussions of the knives/multitools debate, "You can disagree, but you're not the one who has to deal with land managers on a daily basis. Considering the number of alternative items you can put in caches, it seems like a minor issue."

 

When the volume of such calls reached a level that Groundspeak found troubling, the listing guidelines were changed to address the problem.

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Hows this for an idea. Instead of leaving a Multi tool/knife, just leave a gift card/certificate for a local outdoors shop that sells them, if the finder wants a multi tool they can use the gift card to buy one, or maybe there is something else they would want.

Which dollar store has $1 gift cards? :laughing:

 

Jan

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The OPs was asking about Multi Tools As Swag :) As far as multi tools your are not going to find one in a dollar store, and if you did it would not be much of a multi anything, :) I guess it might make a good paper weight. :lol:

 

I find it amazing how many people think the guidlines do not apply to them when it comes to what is allowed for swag.

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I had to hit a local "cheapy store" to grab some cleaning supplies ... There were three different "multi-tools" available for a dollar. One was a multi-tip screwdriver that stores the bits in the handle. Another was a little socket driver set and the third was folding pliers deal WITH NO BLADE.

 

Thanks Lep and others for some of the props. I'm tired of peeking in here.

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I find it amazing how many people think the guidlines do not apply to them when it comes to what is allowed for swag.

I find it amazing how many people try to exaggerate a guideline into a universally applicable, unquestionable LAW.

 

Great, so someone at Groundspeak thought about it for a moment and put together your all so loved and holy guideline. So what? Where is your criticism? Where is your patriotism? Where is your dignity as a human being, free to make your own choice?

 

Do I (as a German and not even yet immigrant alien) have to remind you about Theodore Roosevelt saying: "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."? I hope not!

 

Make up your own mind. If you find rules or laws to be obstacles to good reasoning, don't be afraid to question them. After all, to think for yourself is the price to pay for living in a democracy. And you don't want to give up that, do you?

 

Jan

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And you

as a German and not even yet immigrant alien
just do not understand how easy it is to get sued in the USA, and even if you win you still have to pay your own court cost. Groundspeak is not a big company, any kind of law suit could force them out of bussiness trying to pay court cost.

I would be the first one to say most guidlines are treated as rules, I do not like it but that is the way it is.

 

I have been known to be very critical of some of the ground speak policies, so much so that at one time I was not alowed to post in the forums for about a week. At least any post I made was reviewd before it was posted.

 

I will add when Theodore Roosevelt was the president of the United States people in the USA were not as sue happy as they are today. Perhaps in Germany and some other countries people do not look for some one to sue when they do something stupid. In the USA the first thing some one does is try to find out how to make a buck when they do something stupid.

Edited by JohnnyVegas
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Perhaps in Germany and some other countries people do not look for some one to sue when they do something stupid. In the USA the first thing some one does is try to find out how to make a buck when they do something stupid.

I have to admit that this is probably the underlying main problem. That plus that you can't even tell those people that they are stupid without risking to be sued again.

 

Jan

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