Letterboxers Vs. Geocachers?

[CoyoteRed]

I guess I should figure who local letterboxers are and ask what things ones are known to be there sometime this year?

Something like that.

[+tabulator32]

Letterboxers know they might come up empty for reasons beyond their control.  You might be hunting a box long gone, but is that really that bad if the journey was worth it?  As an owner you won't know who or when your box is visited until you go check the box or get some other form of feedback.

Ok, but how long? I mean other than emailing the NA site and hoping they kill the listing something that disappeared a year ago could still be listed. Yes thats true of geocaches, too, but at least I attache a notice to the info.

I guess I should figure who local letterboxers are and ask what things ones are known to be there sometime this year?

A lot of clues, LB closures, re-openings and other stuff is in one of the yahoo groups called "letterbox-usa" or "LBNA" (Letterboxing North America)

 

If you really want to help keep straight on availability of boxes and also have a place to ask LB'ers questions about their boxes or clues, try enlisting to that group.

[+welch]

If you really want to help keep straight on availability of boxes and also have a place to ask LB'ers questions about their boxes or clues, try enlisting to that group.

I'm actually already a member of that yahoo group, haven't checked in a while though. A year ago I asked about how to get rid of listings that were missing or at least I thought were missng (at one point the owner did send a reply that was like 'yea I know its missing, i think it got lost whent he creek flooded, Ill replace this fall'!!!! my later emails went unanswered). The advice I was given at the yahoo group was to keep trying to contact the owner, and email the LB website and tell them the box is gone. (apperently if they get enough complaints they'll remove it??) AFAIK none of the 'local' people were on that list.

Several more months rolled by before the LB I couldn't find was removed from the site (when they added the blind email thing)... Nice area to visit, but it still bugged me not being able to 'complete' the journey. I found it quite frustrating .

 

oh well, just a game

[+BillsBayou]

Random thoughts:

 

I'm guessing a CILO event is out of the question.

 

I want to see what happens when a letterbox is placed near an existing cache.

 

Are there any parallels between this experience and putting down asphalt roads over existing horse trails? (or any other new replacing old scenarios)

 

Final random thought: How fast is Letterboxing growing in relation to Geocaching?

[+sept1c_tank]

...Final random thought:  How fast is Letterboxing growing in relation to Geocaching?

The only thing growing as fast as geocaching is the national debt!

[+briansnat]

I want to see what happens when a letterbox is placed near an existing cache.

 

Too often a geocacher finds the letterbox, thinks its the geocache and trades out the "neat stamp", for a McToy.

 

Actually, because letterboxers tend to seek out the same kinds of places to hide their boxes as geocachers do, there are many places that are host to both. Sometimes just a few feet from each other.

 

How fast is Letterboxing growing in relation to Geocaching?

 

I don't have the actual stats but in most areas its not even close. I discovered letterboxing and geocaching at about the same time in 2001. At that time there were about 150 caches in my state (NJ) and about 30 letterboxes. Now, 4 years later, there are 3,192 geocaches in NJ and just under 200 letterboxes in the state.

[+BillsBayou]

My thought was too random.

 

I want to see what happens when a letterbox is placed after the cache is placed. I want to know what kind of attitude the letterboxers adopt when it was the cache that was there first, not the other way around. Will the cache owner get requests to move the cache? Will he/she get condescending attitudes from the letterboxers? Any stories?

[CoyoteRed]

I don't have the actual stats but in most areas its not even close. I discovered letterboxing and geocaching at about the same time in 2001. At that time there were about 150 caches in my state (NJ) and about 30 letterboxes. Now, 4 years later, there are 3,192 geocaches in NJ and just under 200 letterboxes in the state.

From this page I get only 1783 caches in NJ.

 

Regardless, geocaching can show growth faster than letterboxing for a number of reasons. One is it's a lot easier to place a basic cache, especially a drive-by--which don't even exist in boxing.

 

Another thing, you won't find any one site dominate in letterboxing. Many aren't even listed. It's hard to get a total number of boxes.

[+BillsBayou]

Sounds like one of those grass-roots Luddite activities. They're better BECAUSE they're not as organized as Geocachers. They're better because they're pre-technology. They're better because they have fewer people who are more dedicated than the larger-take-any-techno-bumpkin group of Geocachers. They're better because they don't have storefronts with Geocaching Logo emblazoned coffee mugs. They're better because they KNOW they're better.

 

My advice when confronted with an agry letterboxer: Ignore them.

Meet an angry one face to face? Smile and nod.

 

By the way, the St. Tammany Sheriff's Office has a letterbox in their custody. It was placed without the property owner's permission. They'd really like to speak with whomever placed the box.

[CoyoteRed]

It was placed without the property owner's permission.

Like that's never happened with a geocache either, right?

[fishiam]

So, I've seen Jeremy post on here before and gathered he is an admin of the site, but is he like the founder or what?

He took the "geo-stash" idea and ran with it and made the site you see today.

 

(And renamed the "stash" to "cache" to remove any obvious detrimental connotations.)

 

Not to weigh in on the LB vs. Geocache debate but I do like to keep history straight. The person who came up with the name "geocache" - after much debate - was a fellow named Matt Stum. You can read original post here.

[+tabulator32]

I love the Freudian slip with the word "fine"...

 

"Regardless of the final name, can we please replace

the word "stash" with "cache"? "GPS Cache Hunt"

and "Geocache" still sound find."

[+Colorado Cacher]

Interesting topic. here in Colorado Springs there are many LB's but I have never seen any animosity from one group to another at all. I go out and find LB's when my mind fizzlefarts out from all the geocaching. Its almost the same thing (no goodies) but I still get the exercise I need without my brain catching on fire.

[+briansnat]

Sounds like one of those grass-roots Luddite activities. They're better BECAUSE they're not as organized as Geocachers. They're better because they're pre-technology. They're better because they have fewer people who are more dedicated than the larger-take-any-techno-bumpkin group of Geocachers. They're better because they don't have storefronts with Geocaching Logo emblazoned coffee mugs. They're better because they KNOW they're better.

 

I think you have it pegged, to a point. Of course all letterboxers aren't like that but there is enough to allow generalization.

 

 

... One is it's a lot easier to place a basic cache, especially a drive-by--which don't even exist in boxing.

 

Ummm, yes they do. I've found them. OTOH, you do have to fit a stamp and logbook in a letterbox which makes micro spew tough. Letterboxes take a bit of thought and effort to place, so the quality of hides tends to be a bit better on average.

Edited August 25, 2005 by briansnat

[Flying Dragon]

Along the LB vs. GC debate, I have a question to post to this group. What is your opinion of someone placing a cache knowing it is near a letterbox and using the letterbox's clues only re-written slightly as clues to the cache?

 

We've had this happen in the area lately. The LB'er had never had any problems with their box for the 6 months it had been in it's location, then a month ago a local cacher placed a cache within 15 feet of the box knowing full well it was there. Then not only did they referrence the box in their cache clues, but the clues themselves were eerily similar to the boxer's clues. Since the cache's placement, the letterbox has been completely destroyed. The boxer sent an e-mail to the cacher asking them to not only move the cache, but also not referrence the box in the new clues, and I've seen the e-mail, it was very polite. In return, the cacher sent a reply where the first paragraph was an apology for the placement and resulting destruction. The next 4-5 paragraphs however were a rant as to why geocachers are better than letterboxers (at least that's what it seemed like to us). After another set of e-mails, the cacher agreed to move the cache, but has yet to do so.

 

[EDIT - Removed teh stupidness for it being stupid and hurtful.]

 

Personally, I have nothing against either letterboxers or geocachers. Either side has it's benefits and it's great they're out there as options, especially when we need to get more people out doing active things.

Edited August 25, 2005 by Flying Dragon

[Team Armadillo]

Wow this simple question is turning into a whole new level.

 

The cache Flying Dragon references is the cache that I mentioned in my first post to this thread. And the cacher he is referencing is me.

 

Flying Dragon is a friend of the letterboxer who placed the box involved. I find it interesting to note that he apparently created a geocaching identiity strictly for the purpose of making the above post.

 

I acknowledged that I should have asked the boxer first before placing the cache, simply out of respect. That was my mistake and I appologized for it. I have also offered to move the cache and change the description. It has been three days now and I haven't had the time to do it yet.

 

The boxers email was very polite. I feel my return email was also, and object to the characterization of it as a rant. I very politely explained why I felt the box and cache could coexist. This was a plea to be allowed to keep the cache in place as I feel it is an excellent location. I explained my personal experiences with the two communities thus far in an attempt to reassure her that cachers would treat her box with the same respect that boxers would. Apparently my defense of geocachers and my personal stories made it appear as if I were blaming letterboxers or saying one group was better than the other. I did not mean it this way and am bery sorry if that is how it came across.

 

Finally I personally resent the accusations made at the end of the email. My family and I consistently replace boxes and caches exactly the way they were found. I would never leave a box or cache lying out exposed and have even discussed with others the need to make sure that is not happening. It is possible that when we were new and inexperienced we made mistakes and did not properly rehide a container. If that is the case I wish that it had been pointed out then, as the learnign curve would have improved. I can safely say nothing like that happens any more.

 

Hopefully any further discussion on the specifics of this issue can take place between me and the other people involved rather than here in this forum. I am not going to argue the other points in his post in this forum as it is a waste of everybody's time and also off-topic.

 

(Edited to change potential misunderstandings and clarify tone)

Edited August 25, 2005 by Team Armadillo

[Flying Dragon]

To be honest, I was expecting TA to reply at some point, but I was hoping it would occur after others had posted. I was purposefully trying to keep it annonnymous to avoid tainting people's response's to a question that I'm wondering how people here feel. Yes, I joined this forum recently, I'm not a cacher, but I feel I can learn things from the people here, just because it's a caching forum doesn't mean letterboxers can't learn anything here. As for making an identity strictly for this post, if I had been trying to hide my own identity, I wouldn't have used my LB trail name as my forum name here, I would have used my usual forum name.

 

Getting back to the point, I really would like to know other's opinion on the basis of what I wrote, not the reasoning.

[CoyoteRed]

...within 15 feet of the box knowing full well it was there.

It doesn't matter if the two containers represent a letterbox or any geocache listed on any site, or even not listed; knowingly placing a hunt right next to another without the other's permission is poaching. It's understandable how someone could get upset.

 

We all have to remember both hobbies are very vulnerable. It would take very little for someone to just walk off with a letterbox or cache. Personally, I'd be afraid of ticking someone off. I could find every one of my caches gone in a heartbeat.

[Team Armadillo]

The boxer had every right to get upset. It was an error in judgement on my part. I admitted that immediately to myself and them. In my eagerness to use a great location I made a very bad decision. I am sorry and I have apologized repeatedly. There is absolutely no reason not to have discussed it with the boxer first to see if she was OK with it. I don't know how I can make it more clear to everyone involved that I know I made a mistake and that I feel terrrible. I think it is obvious how others feel about this issue. I should not have placed the cache there. It was rude and inconsiderate and thoughtless.

 

But let us be clear. If all Flying Dragon wanted to know is others opinion of my error then the post would have stopped here:

 

Along the LB vs. GC debate, I have a question to post to this group. What is your opinion of someone placing a cache knowing it is near a letterbox

 

Everything else in the post is either a misrepresentation of the facts of the actual occurrence or a personal attack on me and my family.

 

As for the follow up...

 

Yes, I joined this forum recently, I'm not a cacher, but I feel I can learn things from the people here, just because it's a caching forum doesn't mean letterboxers can't learn anything here

 

That is wonderful. I welcome everyone to join these forums, letterboxers, geocachers, anything. It is a great opportunity to learn many things. I know I have learned a lot from these forums as well as the letterboxing groups of which I am a member. But I again restate my first point.

 

As for making an identity strictly for this post, if I had been trying to hide my own identity, I wouldn't have used my LB trail name as my forum name here, I would have used my usual forum name.

 

At no point did I suggest that anyone was trying to hide their identity. It is obvious you were not hiding as you point out. My reference to the fact was that you found or heard about my post in reference to this issue and joined specifically to respond to what I had said. You did not join for the educational experience, although I hope that you will continue to read these forums now that you have joined. As you pointed out, everyone can learn something. The problem is sorting out the gems of knowledge from the obfuscation and negativity.

 

Again, I don't know how many times I am expected to state that I was wrong. This thread is about the attitudes of cachers and boxers towards each other, let us get it back on topic or end it. Flying Dragon, feel free to open a new thread about placing caches near exisitng letterboxes to get as many opinions as you like. I am sure they will all agree with me that I was wrong, I don't know how much more than that you need.

[+chaosmanor]

Enough, already!! It looks to me that Armadillo has apologized enough for his terrible crime! Lay off, now. The problem has been fixed, apparently, so it is a dead issue. Time to call off the dogs

 

As for the general problem, I would agree that deliberately placing a cache next to an LB (or vice cersa!) is wrong. But letterboxing has a problem of identity, and of visibility. I do both, but geocaching is a whole lot easier, mainly because there are so many more of them. LBers might say that that is part of the problem, but if they really feel that way, why are not more LBs? Yeah, carving a stamp for the box can be a pain, especially for those (moi!) who have no artistic talent. But not buying trinkets does tend to make up for that a bit Still, letterboxing could do a better job of promoting itself, and until it does, the fact remains that there will be far more geocachers than letterboxers.

 

Now for a short story that explains why I got into LB, after several years of geocaching, and how the two can coexist. I was looking for a cache in a town 2-3 hours away (I won't say where, to protect the civilized owners who worked out a difficult situation); this was maybe a year ago. I found a box that was very close to the co-ords for the cache, but it didn't fit the description. Well, it's not like *that* hasn't happened before But the log started out with stamps, and there were almost no trade goods inside. I signed the log, anyway, but when I got home, I finally got around to investigating LB, and discovered that there was, indeed, an LB in that same park. So I wrote to the owner of both the cache and the box, telling them what I had discovered. I never heard from the LB owner, but the cache owner thanked me, and said that he had been wondering about a couple of posts, and was planning on checking things out when my log came in. So he wrote to the LB owner, and they worked out a solution. As it turns out, the cache is older than the LB, but the cache owner offered to move the cache, as he lives only a few miles from the cache, and the LB owner was much more than 100 miles away (?!?) Not only that, the cache owner offered to put a new stamp on the LB, if the owner mailed him one. Now *that* is a good deal all around.

 

My point is that both sides stand to gain a lot from each other. Name-calling serves no purpose. Criticism of either one without knowledge of it is pointless. We can co-exist. But letterboxers will gain nothing by conitnuing to "hide in the shadows". And geocachers will miss out on a fun adjunct to their hobby if they ignore letterboxing. It would seem that, as geocaching not only has no "problem" with letterboxing, but actually encourages cross-pollination, that LB could take advantage of geocaching to advance itself.

[Flying Dragon]

I will say one more thing on this. Concerning the placing back in wrong locations or poor condition, I will concede this point. As my wife pointed out to me, we can't be certain that it was indeed TA who was leaving them elsewhere. Also, considering how quickly the summer has gone by, it is entirely possible I'm thinking of events that happened back in the spring, when as you said you were new to letterboxing and mistakes could have been made. If this is true, I truly apologize for any slight you felt by my comments, I really didn't mean for them to be hurtful or inflammatory, after re-reading them, they just turned out that way. They have been removed, and I'm willing to let this go now and die a quick and quiet death.

[Jeremy]

A small (but vocal) group of letterboxers don't like geocachers (generally) because it sheds too much light on their own activity which they consider somewhat exclusive (even though we all know that a web site really can't be that exclusive, you know?) . So a small minority feel better by knocking on geocaching and letting folks know that they are nothing like those naughty geocachers and would never do anything bad like those naughty geocachers. It's always been that way.

 

I've always defined the difference as letterboxing being more of a right brained activity, while geocaching is more left-brained. However puzzle caches tend to fuzz the line a bit.

 

Giving me some kind of credit for the animosity of letterboxers is giving me entirely too much credit. Many on the letterboxing side weren't even around in the early days of geocaching or letterboxing anyway.

 

Letterboxing itself can be considered a sister activity to geocaching, but as far as I know the GPS Stash Hunt was conceived without any knowledge of letterboxing and I only learned about it after I started the geocaching.com web site. The letterboxing activity itself has been around since the 1800's but really only came into vogue in the US around 1999 when the activity was profiled in National Geographic Magazine and Randy's letterboxing.org site came into public view.

 

I don't have any animosity for letterboxing, but I do think it charming when the folks in their mailing list make it sound like many issues that affect geocaching don't affect them. We're all made from the same cloth. It'd be more useful to notice the similarities and deal with the differences than be confrontational and ignore the obvious.