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This Is Where My Money Goes?


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I've been a GC.Com premium member for almost a year now, just got the message that it's time to pay up again. I see a lot of time and effort (and probably $$$) went into Waymarking.com. Now I've never been a huge fan of virtuals, since many of them took me to rather uninteresting places. BUT, at least there was SOME quality standard. I don't see much criteria for a waymark other than "go find something and grab a waypoint at it". McDonalds? Bars? Come on.. I can get that info faster and with more reliability from the yellow pages. The bar hasn't just been lowered, it's been dropped into a ditch and is floating away.

 

But, that's my opinion, and many feel differently. If they want to run all over the country eating at a McD's so they can log a waymark and outgrow their pants, more power to them. MY problem is that my subscription to GC.Com is probably paying for it. For the past year I've been waiting for some neat features like being able to see who's watching my caches, or enhancements to the GC.Com site that make it more useful to me. Every once in a long while a new feature (like the new cache notify emailer) comes along, and YES! That's what I've been waiting for!

 

Then I see Waymarking.com, and can't help wonder if THAT's where most of my premium membership is going. :P I don't want to pay for THAT! I want to pay for something I'll USE! :lol:

 

How about seperating the financials. Since Waymarking is so different from geocaching (as I keep reading here) then let it finance itself. Put my money to use for me, and let the waymarkers pay for their own site.

 

Ok, enough griping. Time for lunch. Maybe I'll go "score a find" at McDonalds. :blink:

 

Or not.

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Of course that is where some of the money (and development time) has gone.

 

Groundspeak, as a private company has decided that Waymarking might be a good business venture, it may be, it may not be. Not being the one who controls the money, it really isn't up to me to say where my 30USD/year goes. Remember, a large part of that goes towards simply running the site, buying servers, keeping the lights on, etc.

I personally like it, but it isn't meant to be the same as geocaching, or virtual caches or locationless caches. I see it as kind of a super-set of them all. There are going to be some things in there that you can find almost literally on every street corner (like McDonalds). I doubt waymarks like that will get many logs. They are just too easy to find.

Then there are going to be waymarks for things like bridges, again not hard to find, but useful to know where they all are.

Then there will be waymarks for things like historic bridges, harder to find, and maybe worth going to look at while you're on vacation in an area, or driving though. How many people here know the story behind the bridge in Souris Manitoba? I bet its on the 'suspension bridges' locationless, but you'd never find it.

Its an organizational, and a paradigm* shift, and I think its a good one.

 

Oh, and I'm willing to bet that you'll *never* see who is watching your cache. It's a privacy issue, not a development issue.

 

*I've always wanted to use that in a sentence...

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Do you use your gc premium member features? Would you like to keep Groundspeak and geocaching around? One more, do you decide where all the money from your other purchases go? Do you think all the money from the big-macs you buy will go to improve only big-macs?

 

'nuff said.

 

.....wait, I think I hear the Waaaah-mbulance. :blink:

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I've always thought of my $30 annual Geocaching.com dues as incredibly cheap for what it brings to me. For as long as I've been using the site, the product offering has been worth more to me than what I have paid.

 

And even though some things about the site have improved, there hasn't been a single price increase. And my premium membership applies to benefits on the new site as well as GC.com.

 

I like what I see so far with WM.com, but I personally don't care what Groundspeak does with my $30. They can spend it on shoes, better employee benefits, more disk space, or a corporate jet, and it's all good, as far as I'm concerned.

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Way to knee-jerk, fellas.

 

DocDitto brings up a valid point. While he may not be happy with where his money has gone in developing this site, he may not want to see them further it at the expense of improving other parts of GC.com.

 

Unlike the "big mac" analogy, Waymarking has its own top-level domain and is stated to be something quite different from GC.com. I can see how geocachers who want their subscription fee to feed GC.com could be worried that WM.com has taken (or will continue to take) some attention away from improvements at GC.com.

 

You do have a say in how your money is used, in that, when you find out that you're not getting what you want from the service any more as you see other things happen, you're able to stop sending in more money. Whether those ofyou who drink alot of the kool-aid care where your money goes isn't at issue. DocDitto does and has a reasonable question about the future tethering of WM to his GC dollar. It may be a situation that warrants two subscription policies (and that may help select who should be allowed to vote at WM as opposed to all PM at GC) with a discount if you subscribe to both sites.

 

I could even imagine a situation where PM geocachers who choose not to waymark are rallied in order to strike down a waymark subcategory's popularity because someone didn't like something going on over here. What care is it of their's...so they vote because they can and their friend asked them to. Separate subscriptions could have a bigger impact on this system than just making sure your fees go to the improvements you'd rather see.

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I'd ask yourself, are the benefits I get from the geocaching.com premium membership worth $30 a year? If the answer is yes then renew and be happy that you are getting your money's worth. If not then don't, it's your choice.

 

Keep this in mind, finding a way to properly support Virtual/Locationless caches has not been an easy task. It took much longer than originally anticipated causing much angst. We now have a solution in Waymarking and once this new site is on it's feet that should free up the developers to work on more geocaching specific features.

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Well, it wasn't a knee jerk reaction for me. I really am quite happy with how gc.com works, and this was an honest attempt to address concerns over a problem which has been brought up again and again with gc.com (and hence improves gc.com).

 

Perhaps a more apt analogy is the Microsoft analogy:

 

Do you really think that the money you pay for Windows (for those of you who have paid for windows) goes towards developing Windows? I highly doubt it. You can whine all you like about it, but it ain't gonna happen.

 

How practically could the seperation be made? Yeah seperate subscriptions. Ummm, not what I want. I really don't want to be paying *another* $30/year for this. On top of that, how many people are going to sign up at the begining? When there really is no database to speak of? Not all that many I'd wager.

But then lets look at how the money gets spent. You've got a guy working on some code for gc.com. He then finds later (say 6 months down the road) that the same code he used on one can be used on the other. If financials are seperate, then he needs to go back and figure out how much time he spent on developing that code, and 'charge' it back to the other company (talk about a head ache, and time that could better be spent doing something else). Then lets see, lets look at shared infrastructure. How do we figure out how much of Jeremy's paycheck comes from the geocaching revenues, and how much comes from Waymarking? What about bandwidth? Geocaching.com uses lots right now, so probably gets it relatively cheaply the fraction that Waymarking uses would probably cost 'them' much more of purchased seperately, so how much does Waymarking 'pay' geocaching for bandwidth? What about office space? Who pays how much? The same people are working on both, but how much do each pay? 50/50? Doesn't really seem fair, as Waymarking probably wouldn't have as much space by itself.

The two are just so interlinked that it doesn't make sense to try to split them out (without making things way more complicated, and hence way more expensive anyways). Even further, it doesn't make sense, as don't you think that if Waymarking were in trouble financially that geocaching would come and 'bail them out' (assuming the problem were seen as temporary).

 

No, you don't have to continue to support them, but remember what you *do* get for your membership before you decide that your $30 isn't worth it.

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Of course that is where some of the money (and development time) has gone.

 

Groundspeak, as a private company has decided that Waymarking might be a good business venture, it may be, it may not be.

Exactly. I understand the need to pay the bills. I understand the need to innovate. I understand that some people may actually love the new Waymarking site. But I also realize that money spent on that site is less money spent on GC.com. I think it would be reasonable to have seperate subscriptions. Perhaps not initially, but eventually. I can see Waymarking becoming a corporate money maker. (For $$$ a year we'll list your business on our site, or ALL your locations on our site, or "purchase your own category" etc).

 

I guess what happens happens. I do use and enjoy my pocket queries, as well as access to members only caches. In fact, every new cache I've put out has been members only, in order to help feed the site. I encourage people to become paying members because I want to see GC.Com improve. But I'm not seeing much in the way of improvement, at least not quickly. What I am seeing is a brand new site that's barely related to GC.Com and it's being paid for with GC.Com dollars -- my dollars and yours.

 

I'm not complaining that Waymarking exists. What I'm concerned about is having GC.Com stagnate while the money, time, and effort is directed elsewhere.

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The underlying code is actually shared between both of the web sites. So innovations here will equal innovations on geocaching.com. Already people like the "you are here" functionality on Waymarking, and as a result it may soon be a new addition on geocaching.com. So generally speaking the only thing I can see from this site is that there will be new benefits passed on to geocaching.com, and vice-versa.

 

When the site was developed it was treated as a second entity since it was still in the development phase, but once the final touches are made we will be merging the functionality of both sites together. It won't be so noticeable on Geocaching.com but You'll see things like bookmark lists and watchlists here. In the future you'll see more and more sharing of features between the two sites.

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I understand the need to pay the bills. I understand the need to innovate. I understand that some people may actually love the new Waymarking site. But I also realize that money spent on that site is less money spent on GC.com. I think it would be reasonable to have seperate subscriptions. Perhaps not initially, but eventually. I can see Waymarking becoming a corporate money maker. (For $$$ a year we'll list your business on our site, or ALL your locations on our site, or "purchase your own category" etc).

 

This is pretty short-sighted. Waymarking has a lot of potential. In the long run, it might end-up subsidizing gc.com, keeping your annual fees at $30.

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I've been a GC.Com premium member for almost a year now, just got the message that it's time to pay up again. ... Now I've never been a huge fan of virtuals, since many of them took me to rather uninteresting places. ...

 

... MY problem is that my subscription to GC.Com is probably paying for it. For the past year I've been waiting for some neat features like being able to see who's watching my caches, or enhancements to the GC.Com site that make it more useful to me. Every once in a long while a new feature (like the new cache notify emailer) comes along, and YES! That's what I've been waiting for!

 

Then I see Waymarking.com, and can't help wonder if THAT's where most of my premium membership is going. :blink: I don't want to pay for THAT! I want to pay for something I'll USE! :lol:

...

I'm confused by the direction that your remark took. On one hand, you don't much care for virts and LCs. On the other, you don't want them to be seperated out from 'real' caches because some developement money will go to them.

 

Certainly, you don't expect money to be only used in ways that you approve of. Should Jeremy shoot you an email when he is considering buying the wifey a new BMW, after all, her old one's only three years old. Make her wait. There are better things that should be done with your money. :P

 

Golly, I wish I were able to read your letters to your Congressmen. :lol:

 

I'm surprised that you are not ecstatic because eventually virts won't come up in your searches.

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I'm confused by the direction that your remark took. On one hand, you don't much care for virts and LCs. On the other, you don't want them to be seperated out from 'real' caches because some developement money will go to them.

I'll end your confusion. No, I'm not a big fan of virts or locationless, however they are currently part of the site, and I don't care. I can ignore them if I choose. I'd rather have them remain as part of the site and watch the GC.Com features list grow than have them removed from the site and watch GC.Com stagnate.

 

That said, Jeremy has already clarified that innovation on one site supports the other. I have no idea how long it will be until I can run a pocket query to generate caches along a route, or get more than 500 results for a pockets query, which are all features I would use.

 

If Waymarking was killed off to support new features like this, I'd be ok with that. However, if these features were developed for Waymarking and ported to GC.com, I'd be ok with that too.

 

If these features were developed for Waymarking and never showed up on GC.com, then my concerns would be validated. Guess we'll wait to see what happens.

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I'm confused by the direction that your remark took.  On one hand, you don't much care for virts and LCs.  On the other, you don't want them to be seperated out from 'real' caches because some developement money will go to them.

I'll end your confusion. No, I'm not a big fan of virts or locationless, however they are currently part of the site, and I don't care. I can ignore them if I choose. I'd rather have them remain as part of the site and watch the GC.Com features list grow than have them removed from the site and watch GC.Com stagnate.

 

That said, Jeremy has already clarified that innovation on one site supports the other. I have no idea how long it will be until I can run a pocket query to generate caches along a route, or get more than 500 results for a pockets query, which are all features I would use.

 

If Waymarking was killed off to support new features like this, I'd be ok with that. However, if these features were developed for Waymarking and ported to GC.com, I'd be ok with that too.

 

If these features were developed for Waymarking and never showed up on GC.com, then my concerns would be validated. Guess we'll wait to see what happens.

The Waymarking stuff also reduces the burden on the geocaching servers. Without all those lame virts, I've noticed a 0.001ms increase in page loads :blink:

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I think it is a pretty neat idea. What is the premium Membership about $3-$4 (I also have an anti-virus that is the opposite - so each month I jsut deduct $7 and ist that simple) what ever, it is not too much. Even though I started in Feb and only have 70 finds, but others started teh same time I did and now have 300 finds, I think it is worth it, for premium options as well as supporting the group.

 

Just give this a chance. All new things will have bugs and glitches at first... Any factory worker knows that; even Microsoft Windows..... OK Bad Example.....

 

Just give it a chance, I am trusting that we will get this figured out, and in about a year or two it will have a pretty nice system going

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I've been browsing these boards for a few days now waiting for someone to suggest the one Waymarking category all geocachers are waiting for and it hasn't happened. Is no one going to suggest Waymarking the interstate highway exits? Isn't that a big piece of the solutions to caches along a route?

Team Taran

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But, that's my opinion, and many feel differently. If they want to run all over the country eating at a McD's so they can log a waymark and outgrow their pants, more power to them. MY problem is that my subscription to GC.Com is probably paying for it. For the past year I've been waiting for some neat features like being able to see who's watching my caches, or enhancements to the GC.Com site that make it more useful to me. Every once in a long while a new feature (like the new cache notify emailer) comes along, and YES! That's what I've been waiting for!

For reference, TPTB have said repeatedly that people will NEVER be able to see who is watching one of their caches - and I beleive they're eventually going to remove the watch-count all together.

 

My problem is when my PM money is used to develop useless things like this cache-notification email. The caches are already posted to the website as they are listed and you can view these in several locations (the state page shows the 10 newest caches, the search for geocaches by state page that shows the complete list of active caches, and by setting up a PQ of "new" caches.)

 

I'll never use this feature and am disappointed that my money was used to develop it.

 

:D

 

sd

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For reference, TPTB have said repeatedly that people will NEVER be able to see who is watching one of their caches - and I beleive they're eventually going to remove the watch-count all together.

 

Oh Im disappointed to hear that they may remove the watch count altogether. I use that in a couple of ways.

 

1) As a ratings system. If Im not sure how good a cache may be, knowing some are watching it can help decide whether or not to go look for it.

 

2) If I cant find a cache, knowing others are on the watch list tells me that either the cache is too hard, or that it might be missing. Unless it happens to be really good and watched for that reason.

 

Sometimes knowing how many are watching a cache helps me decide how to cache.

 

Edited to add, I dont care about finding out who watches a listing. Knowing how many is useful.

Edited by Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking
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If you could post (after searching) over in the geocaching.com forum, it would be fun to revisit the issue of how a "favorite caches" rating system will replace a watchlist as a far more reliable measure of cache quality. Some people watchlist crappy caches. It's like driving past a car wreck; you can't help but want to read the logs.

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When I was in college (not that long ago), I didn't like that my ridiculously high student fee was paying for the student bus system, clubs, and organizations that I didn't use. So I just convinced myself that my student fees went toward paying for interlibrary loan requests and printer paper in the computer lab - things that I did use. So the original poster should change their thinking. Instead of thinking $15 of their $30 went toward developing Waymarking.com, tell yourself that all $30 of your dollars were spent on Geocaching.com while someone else's $30 were spent on Waymarking.com

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DocDiTTo,

 

I checked my receipts, and your money actually went towards Mobil gas for my trip to work. Part of lep's membership went to Waymarking.

Gas??? After my $30 went toward your awesome street bike??? :D

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As I read Doc's comments, this is the sense I am getting.

 

A new baby has come into the family and it is getting all the attention. All the aunts and uncles are bringing new toys and gifts. The elder son is sitting here like WTF??? ;)

 

I can understand Doc's WTF attitude and I can see that the time to have the baby is now. Yes Waymarking is going to have the new toys and snazzy interface and most of the developers attention -- now. I think that Doc and many others, myself included, have been sitting with our wish lists for a very long time and it is hard to see the new brat get them. Especially when it is log a find that you read my blog. :D

 

I think that the junk will float to the bottom with the thumbs up and thumbs down. But we've waited a very long time for some new toys. :o

 

How did I do Doc?

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You'll be happy to know we brought on a new developer who will help me with the geocaching.com web site. He starts Monday :o

Don't feel too beatup. I've seen this stuff happen a zillian times. People simply need to vent. Focus on the goal.

 

;) Dear God, I'm giving Jeremy advise. :D

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DocDiTTo,

 

I checked my receipts, and your money actually went towards Mobil gas for my trip to work. Part of lep's membership went to Waymarking.

Oh, well, in that case, not a problem. I'm getting ready to pony up another $30, so you can fill your tank up... well... halfway again. :D

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You'll be happy to know we brought on a new developer who will help me with the geocaching.com web site. He starts Monday ;)

Don't feel too beatup. I've seen this stuff happen a zillian times. People simply need to vent. Focus on the goal.

 

Would that be the goal of caches along a route? :D

Yes, Lux, you hit the nail on the head. Perhaps if I'd see something more worthy going on at Waymarking other than fast food and bars, I'd be more exited about the "new baby". I'll send in my check and try to keep an open mind. I actually did find the idea of "famous crime scenes" interesting as a category. There are a couple double-murder scenes nearby that I could waypoint. And no, I wasn't a participant. :o

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...

 

Then I see Waymarking.com, and can't help wonder if THAT's where most of my premium membership is going. :) I don't want to pay for THAT! I want to pay for something I'll USE! :rolleyes:...

Well, you have something new to piss and moan about; that ought to be worth something. :)

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It would have been awesome to see the Waymarks along a route feature and then integrate that into GC.com :rolleyes:

 

Lets see if that new developer can figure that one out. A good learning opportunity.

 

Internal shared infastructure will only benefit both sites, I do agree though that I prefer GC.com features over Waymarking features based on GC.com discussions in the forums and the types of things people are asking for.

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I've been browsing these boards for a few days now waiting for someone to suggest the one Waymarking category all geocachers are waiting for and it hasn't happened. Is no one going to suggest Waymarking the interstate highway exits? Isn't that a big piece of the solutions to caches along a route?

Team Taran

Just in case anyone is interested, I've already got this data for about 80% of the interstate system in PA. It was provided to me by a fellow geocacher who works as a cartographer for the state.

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You'll be happy to know we brought on a new developer who will help me with the geocaching.com web site. He starts Monday :D

Twice, I read that as 'bought a new developer'. I just figured it was some technical domajiggy.

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You'll be happy to know we brought on a new developer who will help me with the geocaching.com web site. He starts Monday :D

Twice, I read that as 'bought a new developer'.

I did exactly the same thing!

 

And the first thought I had was, why on earth would you buy a new developer when you could buy a perfectly good used one for less money?

 

Another instance of foolishly squandering my $30. :o

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It just occured to me that it has been well over a year since Jeremy started yacking about something new on its way to deal with the LC issue. Why hasn't all the LC haters been on his back to stop wasting their money on the LC solution and start working their personal 'to do' lists?

 

I truly don't get it.

 

The new site will let you go after LCs (categories) and log virts (waymarks). If you hate either of those, it will keep them off your 'nearest' list. Its all good.

 

Still, I wonder what all the fuss is about. I begged someone in another thread to explain why wm.com is evil (without using the word stats) and no one responded. Please, explain.

Edited by sbell111
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Add me to the whine and moan list.

I never use any of the premium member features anyway, so I imagine I'll stop coughing up my $30 contribution shortly.

Please, you have typically been a voice of reason, tell us what upsets you about all this.

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You'll be happy to know we brought on a new developer who will help me with the geocaching.com web site. He starts Monday :lol:

On the West Coast, it's nearing the end of the workday on Monday.

 

How's the new guy working out? :P

 

Oh, probably didn't have a chance to get much done yet. Most likely had to spend the day preparing the 401K enrollment paperwork, listing bank routing numbers on the payroll direct deposit slip, filling out the 'who to contact in case of emergency' form, and familiarizing himself with the employee handbook.

 

:laughing:

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Well, I for one like having two sites for the price of one...Who knows, I may be on a family trip somewhere and want to know where the nearest "xyz" is...And Waymarking may bring me to a "geocacher-friendly" area that gives me a warm welcome. (Maybe even discounts for those who used Waymarking to find the destination or other incentives). Yes, it may be commercialism but even geocaching has some of that in its site. (Someone is making all those coins going around and BTW, Chrysler/Jeep sending out TB's was not out of the goodness of their hearts...It was commercialism and quite frankly, a little fun to me.

 

I think both sites will compliment each other and will make each site better and better.

 

Happy caching! (And Waymarking!) :D

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