+t.a.folk Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 (edited) Co -incidently polythene bags have just been mentioned in a feature on the "This Morning " programme on day time T.V. The feature was mainly about donkeys in Morocco Small part of the feature was about a donkey in distress with colic . Programme said that in the wet season the donkeys can find greenstuff to eat . But in the dry season the programme said the donkeys will rumage for whatever they can find . That can mean rumaging through stuff dumped in polybags iF they ingest some of the poly it can get stuck in their digestive system causing severe colic . If the blockage doesn't clear itself itself they die painfuly . Donkey featured in programme did die but was given strong painkiller to ease it's discomfort . Edited March 28, 2006 by t.a.folk Quote Link to comment
SandyGarrity Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I think the French have solved the problem as they have stopped supplying plastic bags with the shopping. Quote Link to comment
+dino-irl Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I think the French have solved the problem as they have stopped supplying plastic bags with the shopping. Not one to blow a trumpet but AFAIK the Irish did it first Quote Link to comment
+Mad H@ter Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Does anyone have any suggestion as to where to get and what to use as a camouflage bag instead of black plastic bin liner to cover the whiteness of a 2 litre plastic container??? Please help I don't like black bin bags either but don't know where to get hold of anything else. Just found some camouflage material at this link Point North Fabrics and have ordered a couple of metres. Should be here in a couple of days so I'll have my cache bin liners replaced by the weekend. Thanks All Oh dear I wish I had spotted this yesterday . I have DPM Gortex material which you would be welcome to free of charge, all I ask is the postage costs or if you can get to Oxford just come and collect. If you (or any one else) wants any just send me a PM with how much you want and your address. Quote Link to comment
+The Flying Boots Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Oh dear I wish I had spotted this yesterday . I have DPM Gortex material which you would be welcome to free of charge, all I ask is the postage costs or if you can get to Oxford just come and collect. If you (or any one else) wants any just send me a PM with how much you want and your address. What a shame, never mind. The material will be here tomorrow. Also Mr Flying Boot has purchsed a couple of ammo boxes. I've been busy painting the outsides with Geocashing etc and will head out to my caches as soon as possibe to replace those bin liners. Quote Link to comment
+The Flying Boots Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 Just been out and replaced my micro with a black material drawstring bag and the main one with an Ammo Box. Just one main one to replace with cammo material when it arrives and then I won't be using any more bin liners now or in the future. Quote Link to comment
+gazooks Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 I've found several caches where the 'bag' is all but tatters with some pieces littering the local area. In general I tend to pick up the loose bits and wrap up the cache as best I can, as I feel its not my place to dictate to the owners. I would not want the situation where I remove a bag only for the cache to become water logged, but I do strongly disagree with the use of bags. Also as earlier logs state that the caches become waterlogged because they are in a bag. I have found that some caches in bags are because the container itself is not very watertight or in need of replacement. I get my click and click containers from Matalan. Ban the bag. Quote Link to comment
+Alibags Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 If the 'bag' is in tatters and no longer resembles a bag, I CITO it, pure and simple. It's trash, so out it goes. Quote Link to comment
+Moote Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 If the 'bag' is in tatters and no longer resembles a bag, I CITO it, pure and simple. It's trash, so out it goes. I CITO them whatever the condition, along with any Rubber Gloves Quote Link to comment
+sTeamTraen Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 I think the French have solved the problem as they have stopped supplying plastic bags with the shopping. Not one to blow a trumpet but AFAIK the Irish did it first There is no ban on plastic supermarket bags in France; a number of shops have got together to look green for once and stopped giving them out (presumably saving themselves €€€), but others still give them away. Apologies if this has already been posted, but here's a different take - yes, from someone who might have a professional interest, but the bit about the bags being largely recycled at home caught my eye. Perhaps it would be better to ban bin liners smaller than 15 litres - a shopping bag does just as well for a standard room litter bin. Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4836766.stm Quote Link to comment
+alma Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 my brother in law owns some land and i have seen what plastic bags can do to animals i will now be throwing away any plastic bags that have been used to wrap round caches Quote Link to comment
+Geo-Kate Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 If the 'bag' is in tatters and no longer resembles a bag, I CITO it, pure and simple. It's trash, so out it goes. I CITO them whatever the condition, along with any Rubber Gloves No, not the RUBBER GLOVES again! Quote Link to comment
webfishrune Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 Plenty of caches up here in the north of England 'higher reaches' (aka North Pennines) are actually wrapped in plastic bags - some double! They do seem to give some protection from the more severe weather. Also, remember, plastic is not fully watertight! Moisture (and gasses) leach through the plastic gradually over time. If you want it to be really waterproof, use an ammo box or something. You could use glass but I would suggest not, it's not very contryside-friendly if it gets broken. Quote Link to comment
+Gralorn Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 Wilkinsons still has the best range of plastic lock boxes at the fairest price considering the quality, and The Camp Shop stash bags are also excellent value. Plastic bags ? Why cannot they just be banned, not a gudeline an instruction NO PLASTIC BAGS to be used. http://www.campshop.co.uk/item224.htm Quote Link to comment
+The Northumbrian Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 (edited) webfishrune Also, remember, plastic is not fully watertight! Moisture (and gasses) leach through the plastic gradually over time. If you want it to be really waterproof, use an ammo box or something. You could use glass but I would suggest not, it's not very contryside-friendly if it gets broken. Is this from your experience of finding or hiding caches? Nige Edited May 15, 2006 by The Northumbrian Quote Link to comment
+The Other Stu Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 Wilkinsons still has the best range of plastic lock boxes at the fairest price considering the quality, and The Camp Shop stash bags are also excellent value. Plastic bags ? Why cannot they just be banned, not a gudeline an instruction NO PLASTIC BAGS to be used. http://www.campshop.co.uk/item224.htm How do those plastic lock boxes compare price-wise with the Tesco "Klip Fresh" ones? They're costing me a fortune! I'm pretty happy with them though, definitely keep out the "elements" Stu Quote Link to comment
+Cache U Nutter Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 I have to say I find it remarkable that so many people have a bee in their bonnet about Bags -- get a life! They are very usefull if used correctly : 1] if a plastic lunchbox is placed in a very muddy or dirty area without an outer wrapping the dirt/ mud migrates into the box as soon as you remove the lid. You also end up with dirty hands which is not a good idea if you are writing in the logbook. With a bag you can empty it carefully and the box is clean and intact. Hence the old 'Opal fruits' double wrapped theory holds true 2] Yesterday I found a Cache in the pouring rain. I was able to remove the lid of the cache whilst it was still in the bag and in doing so kept the contents dry. Without a bag the log book etc would have been soaked Perhaps there are situations where a bag is inappropriate and these should be addressed to the owner Quote Link to comment
alistair_uk Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 1] if a plastic lunchbox is placed in a very muddy or dirty area without an outer wrapping the dirt/ mud migrates into the box as soon as you remove the lid. I can think of many cachers who will disagree with you, primarily because the mess migrates inside the bag anyway. I was able to remove the lid of the cache whilst it was still in the bag and in doing so kept the contents dry. ...and this is my real reason for responding. I nearly always carry a spare bag with me. Uses include a surface to sit on when the ground/seat is wet, a pooper scooper and a way to open a cache and sign a log while keeping the rain out of a cache. Quote Link to comment
+t.a.folk Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 I have to say I find it remarkable that so many people have a bee in their bonnet about Bags -- get a life! We find it remarkable that you do not view the use of poly bags wrapped around the outside of cache from the wildlife perspective. Quote Link to comment
+Cache U Nutter Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 1] if a plastic lunchbox is placed in a very muddy or dirty area without an outer wrapping the dirt/ mud migrates into the box as soon as you remove the lid. I can think of many cachers who will disagree with you, primarily because the mess migrates inside the bag anyway. I was able to remove the lid of the cache whilst it was still in the bag and in doing so kept the contents dry. ...and this is my real reason for responding. I nearly always carry a spare bag with me. Uses include a surface to sit on when the ground/seat is wet, a pooper scooper and a way to open a cache and sign a log while keeping the rain out of a cache. Good point, carrying a bag in rainy weather a very good idea Quote Link to comment
+Cache U Nutter Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 I have to say I find it remarkable that so many people have a bee in their bonnet about Bags -- get a life! We find it remarkable that you do not view the use of poly bags wrapped around the outside of cache from the wildlife perspective. As I said and I quote "where appropriate" i.e you would not use a bag in a field of cows It would be intresting to find out from a profesional person in the know about these things i.e a vet or a member of the R.S.P.C.A as to how many animals have been injured through the injestion of plastic bags used in typical cache locations. The rats in my loft have come to no harm chewing up bags [although they would if I could catch them!] not sure what other animals would be that keen either guess i'm opening up a large can of worms here ! Quote Link to comment
+t.a.folk Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 An documented example related to this topic . http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2003/06...61710120300.htm Polythene bags spell doom for zoo animals By J.S. Ifthekhar HYDERABAD June 16. It is supposed to be a sanctuary for the endangered species, but human apathy is making the Nehru Zoological Park increasingly unsafe for its inhabitants. The premier picnic spot in the twin cities is faced with a serious threat, not from any poachers but from the very people who come to see it. The plastic peril is spelling doom for some of the animals in the zoo. A spotted deer died on May 8 after eating a few polythene bags. In February two deer fell prey to the plastic menace. Post-mortem examination showed that these animals had died due to consumption of plastic bags. This has put the zoo authorities in a state of high alert but they seem helpless in checking the danger. Ever wonder where those colourful carry bags in which the visitors bring a variety of snacks disappear? Well, they ultimately find their way into the belly of dumb animals with disastrous consequences. After the recent death of the spotted deer, authorities have banned carrying of plastic bags inside the zoo and have put a huge notice board at the entrance with a warning that violators will be fined Rs. 500. Visitors are also being thoroughly frisked to ensure that they do not carry the banned material. Yet the plastic threat continues to loom large. At the end of the day the polythene bags are found thrown all over the zoo park, it is said. Why only the deer group is facing the threat? Because they are the free ranging type, says the zoo curator, B. Srinivas. The 250 odd deer in the zoo remain confined to certain areas during the day and after dusk they keep darting all over the place. The zoo extends over an area of 400 acres and it is practically impossible for the zoo staff to pick up the plastic bags from everywhere. The zoo has 85 animal keepers and 102 "malis'' in the garden section. Their duty ends at 5 p.m. and till then they clear away the trash thrown during the day. However, the visitors remain in the zoo long after it is closed and it is during this period that the plastic bags thrown are proving fatal to the animals, Mr. Srinivas said. Though the plastic menace has claimed three animals, the zoo authorities have not fined a single violator so far. Educating the visitors, it is felt, is the best way to check the problem. Meanwhile, the ubiquitous polybags, offshoot of a growing and reckless consumption, wreaks havoc on the dumb animals. Quote Link to comment
+t.a.folk Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 Another example via "Ask Jeeves " describes how cows can die from ingesting polythene . Would be similar, no doubt, for other animals like small rodents . (http://www.jainsamaj.com/magazines/february2004.htm POLYTHENE BAGS CAN KILL COWS Dear Editor, This is very unfortunate that Jains who are proud of saying that they follow a life of not harming any living- beings have not been touched by killing of cows caused by eating polythene bags thrown by us. After the death of several cows recently, the Municipal Corporation investigated the matter and the postmortem reports found hundreds of kgs of polyhene in their stomach. The death of poor cow is so pathetic that after consuming kilos of polythene bags her stomach gets filled up with polymer so tightly that neither it moves forward nor get digested and the cow can not take any food for months and has to wait for death. This death is so painful that even I will suggest that it's better to slaughter the animal rather giving her such a slow death. I appeal the distinguished persons of JAIN SAMAJ to create awareness amongst the community to stop using polythene bags and lead a non-violent way of life, what jainism teaches us. Dr. Rajeev Jain, Quote Link to comment
+John Stead Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 Carrying a fairly stiff plastic bag for opening caches in rain or for sitting on is an excellent idea - but it is poor quality bin liner bags which cause the most trouble and angst. Quote Link to comment
+t.a.folk Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 (edited) Carrying a fairly stiff plastic bag for opening caches in rain or for sitting on is an excellent idea - but it is poor quality bin liner bags which cause the most trouble and angst. On the thckness aspect of poly bags found this snipet on "ask Jeeves ,referring to a part of India . Reason for ban not explained . "Govt bans use of polythene less than 30 microns thick [ Tuesday, September 16, 2003 11:20:59 pm TIMES NEWS NETWORK CHANDIGARH: The UT administration has banned the use of polythene/plastic carry bags of thickness less than 30 microns and of size, less than 8 inches by 12 inches. As per the directive, no person in the city shall manufacture, store, import, sell or transport polythene/plastic bags of thickness less than the stipulated limit. The administration has also directed that the minimum weight of a pack of 50 carry bags of the stipulated size shall be 150 gm, with a 5 per cent variation, and carry bags of larger size shall have proportionately higher weight. The administration had earlier banned the use of carry bags made of recycled plastic or plastic of less than 20 microns thickness for purpose of storing, carrying, dispensing or packaging foodstuffs. " Wonder if any caches there are in poly bags? Edited May 21, 2006 by t.a.folk Quote Link to comment
nobby.nobbs Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 staying dry when logging? why not take an umbrella? somewhere dry to sit? fold up stool... plastic bags. bad for environment, get damp and icky inside very quickly and are therefore worse for the cache and finder. use decent lock-lock type containers or ammo boxes where allowed... Quote Link to comment
beanysquil Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 If anyone's interested I've drawstring camo bags for sale on ebay, same user name. They start at £2.49 + P&P. Quote Link to comment
+Firth of Forth Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 Jack Aubrey and I found around a dozen caches while on holiday in Portugal recently. All of them were wrapped in at least 2, sometimes 3, plastic bags; mostly holed and grubby of course. None of the caches were lock & lock boxes and some of the containers were very flimsy and unsuitable, hence requiring some form of protection. It's been some time since I have found a cache wrapped in plastic, and it was a frustrating experience to have to deal with plastic again! I can only presume that it isn't possible to buy lock & lock boxes in Portugal! If I go back, I will be taking some with me. Quote Link to comment
+The Forester Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 Why did farmers start wrapping the hay, or is it straw, in black poly ? Black plastic is so last year! This year I asked my merchant for green poly for the silage wrapper. The best shade of green he could come up with is almost pure white. Still, I think it's more pleasing on the eye than the boring old black bales. Quote Link to comment
alistair_uk Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 I am endanger of causing some upset here but I have a rather interesting observation. I have been removing the bags from my early caches and have found that an open ended bag with holes in does not collect water and is not all damp and smelly. I intend to do some more tests on what works, but has anyone else found the same. This could prove to be a good compromise between those who feel a cache must be in a bag for camouflage and those (like me) who find the result displeased. Quote Link to comment
Icarus. Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 .....an open ended bag.... Hmmm. How would you get your cache box in if it wasn't open ended? There's no excuse for using plastic bags in which to hide caches. Quote Link to comment
+Hi-Tek Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 As someone who has discovered a hedgehog with it's head trapped in the handle of a plastic carrier bag I would BEG that no-one uses them as cache camouflage. The bag was so tight around its neck/head that I couldn't remove it it on my own - it didn't help that it curled up in a ball "as they do". I had to take it home and my wife and I managed with care to gently cut it off. The hedgehog was returned to where it was found and hopefully had an easier life no longer having to drag that bloody bag around everywhere it went. Quote Link to comment
alistair_uk Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 .....an open ended bag.... Hmmm. How would you get your cache box in if it wasn't open ended? There's no excuse for using plastic bags in which to hide caches. Give me strength. "Open ended" as in a custom size to fit the cache that is not folded over at the end. No place for any animals to get trapped either. Quote Link to comment
+CrazyL200 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Not very digestive for the inquisative animals either. Or very nice to stick your hand in when they've been in the undergrowth all winter. BAN THE PLASTIC BAG. Quote Link to comment
Icarus. Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 .....an open ended bag.... Hmmm. How would you get your cache box in if it wasn't open ended? There's no excuse for using plastic bags in which to hide caches. Give me strength. "Open ended" as in a custom size to fit the cache that is not folded over at the end. No place for any animals to get trapped either. I still think that if anyone thinks they need to put a cache in a plastic bag - open ended or not - should first question if the container they're using is actually suitable. I've never found a cache in a plastic bag that isn't already full of water and/or stinks to high heaven. Geolitter at its worst. Quote Link to comment
alistair_uk Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 (edited) I've never found a cache in a plastic bag that isn't already full of water and/or stinks to high heaven. Geolitter at its worst. But I have and that was my point. I would have wholeheartedly agreed with this in the past. The thing that has knocked me back to the neutral ground is that fact that I have found it appears possible to have a bag that is not all damp and soggy. To be honest I am rather disappointed that people are not considering the situation and questioning the situation. Just saying "Bags are bad" is fine, but if we do that with everything we will not move on, not to mention I tend to ignore information that is justified by by no more than someone stating it as fact. Does anyone want an enlightened discussion? If so perhaps we could work out why this bag was not full of water while most others are. I have stated my theory that it is because it is open ended but I could be wrong. Edited July 10, 2006 by alistair_uk Quote Link to comment
+Haggis Hunter Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I don't think people have only said 'bags are bad' they have put a lot more reasons than just that for them being banned. I am not really bothered whether a bag is open ended, dry or not, as in my opinion this is just a small part of the case for and against bags. I think the main thing is the fact that they can cause problems for wildlife, and that for me is a good enough reason not to have them. Quote Link to comment
+housefamily Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Isn't it just easier to say 'plastic bags are bad' and have a single, simple rule? This makes it a lot easier to understand for new cache setters. I'm prepared to be convinced that there may be some situations where a bag might be ok, but is it really worth muddying the water just to use a bag in a few caches? I've had one of my caches found floating in a nearby stream - a clik and lok box - which was perfectly dry inside. I don't think a bag would have helped! Quote Link to comment
+The HERB5 Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 If you have to use plastic bags have a look at COOP ones. They biodegrade over 3 years. Quote Link to comment
+Bear and Ragged Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Does anyone want an enlightened discussion? If so perhaps we could work out why this bag was not full of water while most others are. I have stated my theory that it is because it is open ended but I could be wrong. 1. Maybe the cache had recently been put in the bag. (The old one got wet and smelly, or disintegrated?) 2. The cache hideing place was actually a GOOD hide, in that the cache doesn't get exposed to the elements -therefore no need for a bag? G Quote Link to comment
+Brenin Tegeingl Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 For me personally there are 3 definitive reasons not to use plastic bags. Apart from the risk to wildlife, and it being in breach of placement agreements for certain locations If a plastic bag is needed to make the container weatherproof, the container is not up to the job it is being tasked to do. If a plastic bag is needed to camouflage the container. Either it is in the wrong location, or it is poorly hidden. Containers can be disguised or camouflaged using a range of methods. Including painting the use of gaffer or camouflage tape. Geocaching is a activity where "Good Practices" are learnt by example and not taught. When some one new comes in to geocaching and finds a few caches hidden in plastic bags, they presume that this is good practice. When they come to place their own caches, they follow the examples they have found and use a plastic bag. Quote Link to comment
+gazooks Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 I am personally against plastic bags for all the mentioned reasons and would love to remove them but.... yesterday I did a series of caches by the same person and all the caches were in plastic bags. Fortunetly they were all brand new caches but I think the main reason that they were in plastic bags was because the containers were not what you would call watertight. A couple of them looked like the sort of containers you get in supermarkets for salad !! So removing the bags would expose the caches to the elements. ... catch22 Quote Link to comment
Icarus. Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Not quite catch 22. They shouldn't be using those sort of containers in the first place!!! A decent waterproof container only costs a few quid. Quote Link to comment
+Johnmelad Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 """i.e you would not use a bag in a field of cows """ An empty field today may contain cows, calf's, sheep or other farm animals the next day. Quote Link to comment
alistair_uk Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Not quite catch 22. They shouldn't be using those sort of containers in the first place!!! A decent waterproof container only costs a few quid. I would agree with that and would probably "politely" suggest to the setter that they he changed in my log or by a personal email. If they are a new catcher I would probably do the latter to avoid accidentally upsetting them. Quote Link to comment
+Pharisee Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Not quite catch 22. They shouldn't be using those sort of containers in the first place!!! A decent waterproof container only costs a few quid. I would agree with that and would probably "politely" suggest to the setter that they he changed in my log or by a personal email. If they are a new catcher I would probably do the latter to avoid accidentally upsetting them. I once found a new(ish) cache that had been set using a flimsy old ice cream tub. In my log, I mentioned that some dirty rotter had stolen the 'proper' cache box and left a tatty old ice cream tub in it's place (with a 'smiley'). The cache setters replaced it with a 'Tupperware' box shortly after Quote Link to comment
+daytribe Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 In my early caching days, I wrapped my 2nd cache in a black bin bag. I soon learnt from the logs that this simply isn't done and I have not done it since. Quote Link to comment
+Alibags Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 In my early caching days, I wrapped my 2nd cache in a black bin bag. I soon learnt from the logs that this simply isn't done and I have not done it since. Me too, but then I got a log from Pharisee saying that some 'dirty rotter' has caused him to pour manky water over his head, so I removed the bag! I think when you start off you tend to copy what you see. In my area there seems to be standard multicache format and phraseolgy which have been copied from a certain green blobby cacher's multis. Refreshing moist lemon towlettes are just the thing for getting rid of plastic bag odours/soiling on one's hands. Quote Link to comment
+Major Trek & Co Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 (edited) I agree with Pharisees approach and suggest; to arms Cachers, name and shame those who wantonly (I love this word) use the unmentionable plastic bags. Edited July 13, 2006 by Major Trek & Co Quote Link to comment
alistair_uk Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Well I have made a decision on what I will be doing. I am going to continue to remove any plastic bags from my old caches, and I think I only have one to go. Not that I was considering not continuing this. I shall however continue to use camo bags as a hiding aid, but will be removing the drawstrings to prevent water getting stuck in. Sorry if this upsets the people who have fully considered the situation and disagree with this action, but it is my choice. My golden rule of "as long as the write up is correct" will be followed so if you don't want to find a cache in a camo bag then you will have warning do not have to. It goes without saying that I will continue to monitor the situation and if the caches do suffer as a result then I will change my mind. Quote Link to comment
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