Jump to content

A Plea


jochta

Recommended Posts

no lighters/matches

no plastic bags

 

what next???

 

no new caches????

 

let people cache as they want to cache, thats where the enjoyment  is!

 

no one wants to be told they cannot do something when they enjoy doing it!

I don't think having sensible guidelines will ruin the enjoyment, if anything it should improve enjoyment beacuse people are not at risk of getting injured, burn't etc and no wildlife is put at risk.

 

I have removed a plastic bag from a tree thinking it was going to be a Geocache only to find it full of syringes (Which I took to the local police station to be destroyed)

 

I have invested in some cammo bags which I will try out as they are waterproof and not biodegradeable and they were resonably priced. See Here

 

Also of my three caches that I have hidden are in Ammo cans (with Geocaching Stickers on the outside to avoid confusion) and I think they are ideal. (My other cache is a 35mm Film Cannister)

 

So in summary I don't think it is going to prevent new caches or ruin peoples fun it is just common sense.

Edited by D_Skids
Link to comment
Placcie bags, which are the topic of this thread, are not at all eco-friendly, though they may be (and are!) very useful to camouflage and protect caches.

 

Cheers, The Forester

Placcie bags may be good for camouflage but are useless at protecting the cache, they retain water. You yourself have made logs in the past to reflect your disgust at the state you have found caches in due to placcie bags.

Link to comment

Of the first 20 or 30 caches I found, I would guess that at least 80% of them were in black bin liners. Hence, when I placed my first cache, not knowing of the UK guidelines, I natrually assumed that was the 'done thing', and did the same.

 

I now know better, and none of my caches have bags around them. I buy clip-lock containers from Morrisons - the smallest ones which I have used to replace my micros are 99p, I think, and are perfect to hold a Groundspeak log book, pencil, sharpener, and even a few very small swops. The bigger ones are only about £1.50.

 

The containers are clear, so I spray them black. I'm waiting for someone to complain that the paint flakes off in their hand, or something (when it is first done, the clips can sometimes cause some of the paint to flake off), but I think that, until I find a better alternative, a sprayed cache is better than one wrapped in a black bag.

Link to comment
Silage is freshly cut long grass which is wrapped tightly in plastic to exclude air. Aerobic bacteria would soon rot the silage, which is why the air must be kept out.

 

My next question is ...does that mean that before the invention of polythene it was not possible to make for supplementary feed for cows through the winter ?

Link to comment

i have sympathy due to the extreme unprofitability of running any farm type business these days and the uselesness or the scottish executive otherwise known as jobs for the boys.

 

but my concern still stands re the burning of the plastic. firm do exist that will dispose if not recycle the plastic properly ie at suffieciently high temps to burn off the dioxins.

plastic bags might well pose a risk to animals but two headed animals are not better off! :rolleyes:

Link to comment

The OP was about the suitability or otherwise of putting cache containers in plastic bags. While I'm happy to let the discussion develop I think a discussion of modern farming practices, the effectiveness of certain parliamentary systems etc. is outside the scope of this thread and it seems to be straying off topic.

 

I could be time to close the thread but I'll leave it for a bit to see what develops.

Link to comment

I think it's just an issue of education. The first time I saw a cache wrapped in a black bin-liner I thought "what a great idea, I'll do that for my caches". So I don't think we necessarily need to get it added to the rules, we just need to make sure that people are aware of the downside.

 

[Edit - oh, ps taf - no, it just meant using more labour intensive ways of keeping the air out (sorry Lacto! :rolleyes: )]

Edited by Teasel
Link to comment
Placcie bags may be good for camouflage but are useless at protecting the cache, they retain water.

Placcie bags are *not* useless for protecting a cache. It's all a matter of wrapping the cache properly.

 

Just as with packing a parachute, there is a right way and several wrong ways to do it. Just as with a parachute: get it right and the outcome all is sweetness; get it wrong and the outcome involves an unpleasant soggy mess.

 

Doing it right isn't difficult.

 

In the offshore oil industry we often have to pass very valuable and sometimes vital packages from one ship to another. In fair weather we can use a crane or a mob-boat, but in the North Atlantic or Norwegian Sea or Northern North Sea the weather is often inclement. A method we often use involves a simple packing of even the most valuable or expensive or irreplaceable items, such as original documents or data packages or delicate and sensitive spare parts whose delivery is vital to the successful outcome of a survey or construction project which may be costing many hundreds of thousands of Pounds. We wrap the package in a couple of black poly bag binliners which we pinch from the galley, and we toss the package overboard upwind of the target ship and transfer it very safely that way. The recipient ship simply scoops the package out of the water, even in severe gale force 9 (or more) conditions.

 

The way to wrap a package is very simple, when you know how.

 

Don't do what so many geocachers do by folding the surplus plastic over the package. That causes the problem which so many of us have encountered when having to deal with the soggy mess which results.

 

Instead, tuck the tupperware (or whatever package) down into the bottom of the binliner (puhleeze, never into a shopping bag!) and give it half a dozen twists down close to the package. Then turn the remaining sleeve of the bag inside out and repeat. Keep repeating until you've made the two or three reversals which a typical poly bag will allow.

 

The resultant package will resist storm force conditions and keep the package dry.

Link to comment

Of course re-wrapping assumes that the thing is dry, just like closing a cache container assumes that the cache is dry!

 

That's not an excuse for not properly wrapping a cache or for not properly closing a container.

 

Done properly, wrapping a cache in protective plastic can both camouflage and protect the cache.

 

As for nibbling critters, they nibble tupperware just as easily as they nibble any other plastic. I've had squirrels gnaw holes in a wheeliebin!

Link to comment
Placcie bags may be good for camouflage but are useless at protecting the cache, they retain water.

Placcie bags are *not* useless for protecting a cache. It's all a matter of wrapping the cache properly.

 

I'm certainly not disputing the fact that a properly wrapped cache is going to keep it dry, inside anyway, but once a couple of people have found it, this technique falls quickly to the wayside.

 

As already pointed out perforation of the bag is a big problem to it getting wet, doesn't matter how it is wrapped perforation can happen with the first person. Here are a few logs as an example -

Log 1

Log 2

Log 3

Log 4

 

I could put log after log of people finding rotten bags, but I think those logs sum up quite accurately the need for waterproof caches, and not to use placcie bags.

Link to comment

I went to service one of my caches the other day, I had thought I had removed all bags from my caches, but I was wrong. :o

The picture below displays the bags that the cache WAS wrapped in. I have used a stick to display the holes that have been made in the bags. The black bag has such a large hole in it that it is no good to man nor beast, and the holes in the blue bag were in fact symmetrical, making me believe that it had been munched on by a wee critter.

The container however had no signs of being eaten. That's not to say that it doesn't happen of course, but I believe that it is a lot more rare than bags being munched on.

 

49f440f5-7044-4497-84ae-d0d48f58c839.jpg

 

My point for this post is that it doesn't matter how well you wrap the cache in a bag, the holes WILL always happen. As has already been said before.

 

PLACCIE BAGS ARE NO GOOD FOR CACHES!!! Buy a waterproof container, and camouflage it or hide it well.

 

I now think that all my caches are placcie bag free, if anyone comes across one of my caches that is within a placcie bag, please feel free to relieve it of the old bag. <_<

Link to comment

I'm very glad that GC.com does not try to micromanage caches to the extent of specifying or proscribing individual materials.

 

I'm also glad that there are altruisistic people who replace plastic bags with better ones and who wrap them up properly. It's not difficult.

 

Whenever I find a torn or punctured bag either wrapping the outside of a cachebox or within it, I usually replace it. For example, it is very common to find that the ziplok bag which protects the logbook has been punctured by the pen or pencil. I usually replace it with a clean new one if I have a spare with me.

 

I've even replaced an entire container with a bigger or newer or more weather-proof one on at least three occasions that I can immediately recall. Some cache 'owners' simply don't have the time or opportunity of perhaps even the inclination to maintain a cache as well or as often as might be desired. We can help them by replacing consumables such as pencils and bags in the altruistic spirit of geocaching. The creators of caches usually do so out of altruism. By helping them with carefully considered contributions of better weatherproofing, and discreet explanations of the reason(s), we can all help eachother. A tiny minority will get huffy and reject any quietly spoken and benign words, but they are a very small and completely unrepresentative malign few who will reflexively and aggressively reject any sign of benign and neutral altruism.

 

I agree with Teasel who says:

  I think it's just an issue of education. The first time I saw a cache wrapped in a black bin-liner I thought "what a great idea, I'll do that for my caches". So I don't think we necessarily need to get it added to the rules, we just need to make sure that people are aware of the downside.

 

Some plastics are not fit for purpose as weather protectors. Those skimpy white bags which are intended for swingbins or pedalbins are totaly useless for anything except CITO. The freebie binliners which some councils give away are also useless for any purpose other than transporting domestic refuse from the backdoor to the pavement edge on a one way / one day occasion.

 

External wrappers need to be of at least the grade which is intended for garden refuse or even the type which are intended for DIY building rubble. Used properly, ie wrapped sensibly, and replaced at suitable intervals, they are quite up to the job. So are ziploks inside the container, despite being quite flimsy themselves.

 

Best of all, do what Teasel suggests and educate people. Just as there are some people who've never been taught to light fires without lighters or matches and some people who who don't know how to tie any knot which doesn't involve shoelaces or a tie, so too there are people who don't know how to properly wrap something in a weather-proofing placcie bag. They try to fold the 'excess' plastic over and over again as if paper-wrapping a Crimbo prezzie. Don't blame them: educate them. Most of them will thank you for it. Those that don't, don't matter.

 

Bring the existence of those four-tabbed silicone-sealed plastic food containers to people's attention. They will soon see the sense of using them instead of the "Tupperware" style of plastic box.

 

Do other things such as explaining the benefit of tossing in a sachet or two of dehumidifying silica gel. Also explain how easy it is to dehumidify those packets in the microwave and re-use them.

 

Don't rule out the use of plastic bags in geocaching, just make it appropriate.

 

 

Cheers, The Forester

Link to comment

I agrre with placcie bags for logbooks, I agree with educating people on what is best, but I just don't agree with placcie bags on the outside of caches. I never used to have this view, but the good people of the Geocaching community have taught me different.

That is in the essence of what your post is saying.

 

A tiny minority will get huffy and reject any quietly spoken and benign words, but they are a very small and completely unrepresentative malign few who will reflexively and aggressively reject any sign of benign and neutral altruism.

 

I said to you in private email once, that I like tarmac not dusty roads to keep going down. I really wonder who you could be talking about here??? You'll just never learn will you!!! sleep.gifsleep.gifsleep.gifsleep.gif

Link to comment
That is in the essence of what your post is saying

No. It is not,

 

The essence of what I said is in what I said.

 

Spinning a bag when wrapping a cache and then doubling and re-doubling the spun bag is a very good and very waterproof way to weatherproof the outer covering of a cache.

 

It works.

 

That is the the essence of what my post is saying.

 

Please don't try to spin my words.

Link to comment
If the last two posters want to continue their personal discussion please do so by PM or e-mail. We do not need to be party to it.  :ph34r:

I'm sorry Lactodorum, but am I to read into your post that because the Forester and I disagree on this subject we are not allowed to discuss it on here???

 

Edit for grammar

Edited by Haggis Hunter
Link to comment
That is in the essence of what your post is saying

No. It is not,

 

The essence of what I said is in what I said.

 

Spinning a bag when wrapping a cache and then doubling and re-doubling the spun bag is a very good and very waterproof way to weatherproof the outer covering of a cache.

 

It works.

 

That is the the essence of what my post is saying.

 

Please don't try to spin my words.

Forester I apologise if you think I was trying to spin your words, but if you look at what you have said, and then what I have said below, you will see that we are both talking about people being educated, which to me is the same thing.

 

So I am not trying to spin your words or placcie bags for that matter :D

 

Best of all, do what Teasel suggests and educate people. Just as there are some people who've never been taught to light fires without lighters or matches and some people who who don't know how to tie any knot which doesn't involve shoelaces or a tie, so too there are people who don't know how to properly wrap something in a weather-proofing placcie bag. They try to fold the 'excess' plastic over and over again as if paper-wrapping a Crimbo prezzie. Don't blame them: educate them. Most of them will thank you for it. Those that don't, don't matter.

 

Bring the existence of those four-tabbed silicone-sealed plastic food containers to people's attention. They will soon see the sense of using them instead of the "Tupperware" style of plastic box.

 

Do other things such as explaining the benefit of tossing in a sachet or two of dehumidifying silica gel. Also explain how easy it is to dehumidify those packets in the microwave and re-use them

 

I never used to have this view, but the good people of the Geocaching community have taught me different.

That is in the essence of what your post is saying.

 

I don't however disagree that spinning placcie bags don't waterproof them, my argument is that they get torn and then are useless regardless of how they are wrapped.

 

Also the part were you say 'four-tabbed silicone-sealed plastic food containers to people's attention' in my opinion argues yourself out of the placcie bag debate, as they are good enough to hide without any other type of waterproofing.

Link to comment

IMO, where The Forester's suggestion falls down is that it's unrealistic to expect more than a minority of your cache visitors (if any) to be aware of the correct way to reclose a plastic bag. No matter how hard you try to educate the general geocaching public.

 

Therefore, the bag will soon be left vaguely wrapped around the box, with the well-known problems ensuing. So a weatherproof box (or weatherproof hiding place) is essential.

 

As for camouflage: there are plenty of alternatives, but begin with reconsidering the cache location if a great deal of camouflage seems necessary. There may be somewhere much more discreet only a few yards away. Or how about a smaller box that will fit inside a tree stump rather than propped up against it?

 

If camouflage is needed (e.g. a deliberately visible hide, or very close to a footpath but with no other options), I would suggest that a black plastic bag is not going to be good enough and the hider will have to spend a bit more time preparing the box. How about camouflage tape, or black duct tape with artificial leaves stuck in it?

 

HH

Link to comment
that the mods will ask people to remove plastic wraps of any sort

The plastic wraps, both internal and external, are necessary because tupperware is not weatherproof.

 

There is not proscription against the use of tupperware as cache-containers in geo-caching, not even in this country, certainly not worldwide. Ergo, there should not be a proscription against suitable use of plastic wraps which protect tupperware, inside or out.

 

I would suggest that a black plastic bag is not going to be good enough

Camouflage entirely depends upon its environment.

 

The cache camouflage which has been quoted is of a grey poly bag being used to camouflage a cache which is surrounded by grey granite rocks.

 

Cheers, The Forester

Link to comment
The cache camouflage which has been quoted is of a grey poly bag being used to camouflage a cache which is surrounded by grey granite rocks.

I'd use a grey-painted ammo box, with a light and rough spray of black to give a mottled effect, and put the contents inside ziplock bags inside the box to keep them tidy and to protect against the unlikely event of the box leaking. If I had to use a four-way locking plastic box I'd do the same thing - if the paint flakes and the white plastic starts to show through after a couple of years it might help the camouflage anyway: if not, I'd repaint it. The internal ziplocks should protect the contents if the container leaks or gathers condensation.

 

Perhaps I'll start taking a selection of spray paints with me in case I have to remove the tatty bits of grubby plastic bag from caches but need to camouflage the resulting off-white container! :D

 

HH

Link to comment
no lighters/matches

no plastic bags

 

what next???

 

no new caches????

 

let people cache as they want to cache, thats where the enjoyment is!

 

no one wants to be told they cannot do something when they enjoy doing it!

So where would you draw the line? If the way I choose to enjoy geocaching is to drive my oversized SUV through protected peat bogs, hack my way through ancient woodlands, trample endangered species and then keep warm by burning some wood I snapped from a tree before discarding my rubbish in the forest because I didn't feel like taking it home with me, would you still say I should be left to cache however I enjoyed caching?

 

Extreme case I know, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Link to comment

You could also use camo material to make a bag or weed control material that can be purchased in Homebase/B&Q type places in small amounts.

 

The weed control stuff works good as it's not waterproof. It just disguises the box.

 

Personally I prefer finding a hiding spot where the box isn't visible. If it's accidentally discovered then it's less likely to cause a fuss if you can see the toys/swaps inside and there is a geocaching label on the exterior.

Link to comment

How about spray painting them black with a touch of brown and khaki - we've done that on a few of ours and it makes a big difference.

 

Does anyone have any suggestion as to where to get and what to use as a camoflage bag instead of balck plastic bin liner to cover the whitness of a 2 litre plastic container??? Please help I don't like black bin bags either but don't know where to get hold of anything else.

Link to comment

Thanks for the help and so promptly too. The idea of weed control material sounds good and easily available too. The camoflage material has also given me the idea to look up a website where I found outdoor fabrics to make bike bags some time ago. They should have something suitable. Why didn't I think of this before??

Thanks again for the help any any more ideas please keep them coming. ;)

Link to comment

ammo-cans and lock 'n' locks...

 

every cache I've found that was wrapped in a plastic bag was wet and slimy inside, except one in Utah, where the plastic bag was superfluous...

 

two mediocre containers never add up to a good container, and a good container avoids the need for extra wrapping.

 

just my $0.02 from over the water

 

Jamie

Edited by NFA
Link to comment

I made up camo bags for my caches from DPM material that I bought at a local fabric shop, it was only a couple of quid a metre. I didn't use waterproofed material 'cos that can be as bad as a plastic bag - if it gets wet on the inside it stays wet, whereas being regular material means that it will dry out naturally.

 

I did a maintenance visit on one of my own yesterday and although it's not supposed to be visible it had been dislodged and would have been easily seen by muggles if it hadn't been in the bag.

Link to comment

A quick search on ebay reveals cammo tape tree design

 

I think this is a different brand, but I used RealTree Duck Tape on a recent cache and it looks very cool. Don't know how well it holds up against the elements, but on a plastic box I'm sure it will last a lot better than flaky spray paint, and ooh it makes that cache look pretty! The plastic ivy leaves probably helped too... I shoulda been a Blue Peter presenter ;)

Link to comment

In response to the OP, I did a cache recently (I won't name the cache) where the cache was wrapped in not one, but two plastic supermarket bags. :tired:

 

The cache seemed to be in good condition, the contents were dry, as I believe they would have been if the bags were not present. It had recently rained and, I must say, extracting the cache from the bags was a most unpleasant experience.

 

The bags had stale stagnant water in the creases, which managed to get all over us as we lifted the bags. A considereable amount of dirt had also been caught up in the wet clingy bags. I was left with an extremely foul stale smell on my hands after I had signed/replaced the cache.

 

I don't want to offend the person who's cache it was, nor do I want to upset anybody else, but I must say, retrieving a cache from a supermarket bag that has been outside for any length of time is not at all pleasant, and can put a real downer on the whole experience of the cache. ;)

 

If the argument for insisting to put caches in bags is to keep the cache dry, as the chache would allow water in, maybe the answer is to get a cache container that is water tight! :huh:

 

EDIT

 

Afterthought; if the reason for bagging a cache is to help hide or disguise it, the only thing a supermarket bag will make the cache look like is litter.

Edited by Geo-Kate
Link to comment

Wet plastic bags, yuck, and don't be surprised if someone clears it up and throws it in the skip thinking it's rubbish been dumped in our lovely country side.

 

I found one once, in a plastic bag, in a bin bag, in a field that had sheep grazing, what would happen to one of those sheep if they found it.

 

Also done a few where the camo bag has been chewed by local wildlife, imagine the suffering that could be caused (and probably has been) if they were plastic.

Link to comment

Time for a random Monday morning rant ;)

 

<rant>

Caches in bags. I hate them. Having recently done a couple of caches as follows.

 

1) Ammo box, camoflauged and olive green in colour, waterproof. Hidden in a black plastic bag full of water and mud. Why?

 

2) Lock n Lock box, waterproof. Hidden in a carrier bag full of water and mud. Cache was bone dry. Why?

 

Dipping hands into wet, slimy, muddy bags to retrieve waterproof boxes is not a pleasant experience, I'm sure hiders who use bags must have had this experience, so why do they emulate it for their own caches :blink:

 

It's against guidelines GAGB and it's horrible and disgusting - so please stop doing it.

 

I don't want to hear the 'camoflage' argument. Disguise the cache in other ways, or hide it better in the first place. I've found the army surplus type camo bags a pretty decent alternative BTW

 

I've a good mind to take a bin bag with me and dispose of all the plastic bags surrounding caches from now on.

</rant>

 

Ah, glad that's off my chest :rolleyes:

Link to comment

How about this

 

for really big caches?

 

I've used camo netting on one or two of my caches. Under the right circumstances it does a really good job and makes the cache very difficult to spot. Unfortunately, not all cache hunters are as careful or as conscientious as the cache setter when it comes to re-hiding the box. They don't take the time and trouble to hide the cache in the same manner as it was hidden originally and consequently, it then looks exactly like an untidy heap of camo netting and sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

A lot of folk seem happy to just pile a load of sticks on a box and walk away. OK... it's covered but not exactly hidden. How many times have you set a new cache, hidden it carefully and disguised it with a liberal application of dried leaves, moss, ivy, whatever then stood back to admire it and walk away happy with your effort, only to come back some time later to discover that your carefully hidden box now resides under a huge pile of 'stickouflage' and is obvious from 50 feet away?

 

If we all took a little more time and tried to make sure that the cache is hidden at least as well as, if not better than when we found it then maybe a few less caches would get muggled.

Link to comment

...

A lot of folk seem happy to just pile a load of sticks on a box and walk away. OK... it's covered but not exactly hidden.

...

If we all took a little more time and tried to make sure that the cache is hidden at least as well as, if not better than when we found it then maybe a few less caches would get muggled.

 

Perhaps this is one of the things that could be covered in the event

 

At least it'll ensure that any newbies coming into caching have a good approach to hiding the tupperware.

Edited by MartyBartfast
Link to comment

no plastic bags

what next???

no new caches????

 

If the control freaks invent a rule that polythene and nylon should be banned, where will the ban stop? Will the next step be to ban the use of Tupperware and Lock&Lock containers too?

 

After all, the argument that rodents can chew through plastic applies equally to the polythene or nylon of a plastic bag as it does to the polythene or nylon of a plastic box. The squirrels at Forester Towers have no problem chewing holes in the lids of wheelie bins, despite the fact that it's a much harder and thicker plastic than I've ever seen any cachebox made of.

 

Let the cache creator decide for themselves what kind of cachebox and weather protection they want to choose. If they decide that they want to have some auxilliary weather protection or camouflage, then let them create their cache as they wish to do. Let's not invent non-existent rules. None of the other geocaching countries are imposing such a rule, so why should Britain be different?

 

The contents of my nearest cache were quite certainly saved by its protective wrapping when the box was left unclosed due to being overfull. If we had a Britain-only rule prohibiting the use of protective bags then the contents of that cache would quite certainly have been ruined by the next rainshower.

 

Let the cache creator decide what weatherproofing measures they want to use. Don't impose silly rules, such as banning plastic wrap on the outside of caches while permitting the same material to be used as a protector on the inside.

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...