Do You Get Permission?

[+treedweller]

I see a lot of hides in parks, schoolyards, etc. and I have my doubts about whether the hider really got permission. Makes me wonder how hard I have to seek ok before i hide something.

 

Not to "out" any renegades, but how often do hides go in without permission? Is it acceptable to say, "City of X has Y policy, so I'll follow that policy 50 times without further requests for approval"?

 

I'm sure few, if any, hide caches on private property without permission, but what about public? What about city ROW, but not a park or other official destination?

 

just curious,

treedweller

[+The Leprechauns]

If a park has a permission policy, I will follow it. If I don't, the volunteer cache reviewer is likely to ask about it.

 

If a park system has said "we don't care to regulate your activity, go have fun," then I won't ask for permission. Example: Pittsburgh City Park System.

 

If a park does not have a permission policy, I will consider whether it is appropriate to tell someone what I'm doing. In one case, I chose to tell a police officer friend of mine, as the park has no facilities and I had no idea who else to contact.

 

If the cache is on a right of way along a road, the land may still be private property. That's why they call it a "right of way!" If you're hiding the cache on a right of way in a non-public setting, like a residential neighborhood, then permission from the landowner ought to be obtained.

 

Caches at or near schools below the college level have been on the "off limits" list since the February update to the listing guidelines, so that question is moot.

[+treedweller]

 

Caches at or near schools below the college level have been on the "off limits" list since the February update to the listing guidelines, so that question is moot.

Hmm, does that mean no new schoolyard hides, or none at all? because I recently tried to complete a multi that ended in a school playground. It had been archived for some time, then came back up about a month ago.

 

As a man who often caches alone, I'm all for a rule that won't leave me lurking about a playground for minutes or even an hour at a time. Besides, how likely is it that an area swarmed with kids daily will sport a hading place that won't get muggled?

 

As for ROW, I don't mean the strip of someone's backyard under the power lines. I'm thinking about roadway medians and the like (and though I know it's done, I'm not advocating a cache that causes searchers to cross 3 lanes of superhighway). There are some nice spots around me that are city property, safely accessible from public roadways, but not official parks or other public destinations.

 

treedweller

[Tahosa and Sons]

Schools are area that is off limits. But when it comes to public parks, national forests and places that are used by the public in large, I ask myself one question.

Does anyone ask permssion to ride their bike in the park or walk their dog, or go play with their kids. When they have to ask permission is when I'll ask permission, and give up caching and go underground.

[+Kai Team]

The Geocachers' Creed offers these words on permission:

...Respect Property Rights and Seek Permission Where Appropriate

* Check if public land has a geocaching policy and respect existing policies.

* Promptly remove your cache if the land manager or steward asks.

* Do not damage, or interfere with the function of, buildings, structures, or signage.

These tenets were hotly debated in the forum where the Creed was developed, because of the difference of opinions regarding public land.

 

IMO, there are different levels of "public" property, e.g. rights of way for roads or streets, undeveloped forest land, developed parks, school yards, government buildings like courthouses or police stations, military facilities. These are all owned by the government and therefore "public" to some degree, but there are different levels of concern for safety and security, and therefore different levels of oversight. Beyond that, there are some areas (e.g. private nature preserves, usually owned by a private not-for-profit conservation organization, or cemetaries) that allow public access, with or without restrictions, and may be mistaken for public land, but are in fact private.

 

If there's a geocaching policy in place, I follow it. In the absence of a policy, I'm not inclined to ask permission for public roadways or streets (e.g. an urban micro). However, I'm a strong proponent of asking permission for every other kind of "public" land.

 

Over the last two years in our area alone:

• A private conservation organization supported caching on certain of their properties with prior approval, then come close to banning it altogether because someone hid a cache in an environmentally sensitive area without talking to the organization first.
   
  
• A cache in a County park was blown up by the bomb squad. The County Parks Department considered banning or restricting caching in all 20 County parks, then reconsidered when local geocachers came forward and explained the activity to them. Now all they ask is that caches be clearly labeled on the outside of the container.
   
  
• Our State Department of Environmental Conservation banned caches on all lands they manage (they manage a lot of acreage, including the Adirondack Park, various forest lands, etc), but relented when a geocacher approached them and talked it through. Now they allow unrestricted geocaching on all of their lands except wildlife mangement areas (a very small percentage of the land they manage)
   
  
• Our State parks department banned caches in historical locations, and now requires a permit for caches placed in State parks.
  

Then of course there is the fiasco in South Carolina, where caching faces legislative restrictions at the State level.

 

Bottom Line: In every case I've been involved in where cachers approached landowners or land managers on their own initiative, caching has been allowed and supported. In every case where caching has come close to being banned, it's because caches were placed without checking with the landowner/manager first.

 

We can chant "Live Free or Die" all we want, but the reality is that leaving a cache is different from riding a bike in the park or walking a dog, or playing with your kids, if for no other reason than the semi-secret nature of geocaching. When people feel that things are being done behind their backs, they get suspicious about, if not outright hostile to, the activity. It's a lot easier to educate land managers upfront than to fight the imminent bans down the road.

 

Edit: Typo

Edited August 14, 2005 by Kai Team

[+briansnat]

I get permission where its required.

[+yogiabb]

I get permission where it is required and it is obivious who to talk to. Where I live that is pretty easy as the city and county parks both have policies and contacts who are easy to contact and are supportive.

The only problem I've had, and it is not a bad problem, is a city organization responsible for the public lands downtown. They suggested I talk to the city attorney for permission to place a cache. I didn't bother. They acted like I was better off not contacting them and just do what I need to do only do it discreetly. So that is how I handle my downtown caches. I make them inobtrusive and obscure as possible (using micros and and puzzles) and have never received a complaint.

[+CarlfromOH]

Well I've only placed 2 caches so far but felt it wise and courteous to ask permission. One is in a public park in a small city and the other is in a state park. Both are in ammo cans which could be deemed suspicious just by their appearance as compared to a Tupperware-type container.

[+hellifiknow]

We've obtained "permission" for most of our hides, including our city park hides.

 

While park property is technically open to the public to use in whatever way it sees fit (as argued in these forums before) - at best a geocache can be viewed as litter and at worse as a potential bomb.

 

So we've worked with 4 local City Parks Departments now to ensure that they knew what geocaching was and they were OK with caches placed in their parks. We didn't get a fight from any of them and most were happy to work with us. One was already familair with caching, so that was easy - but the other 3 were in the dark so we had to explain the whole concept to them.

 

That being said, we do have some caches where no "official" approval was granted mainly because we didn't know who to contact to ask!

 

Bottom line for us though is if you can ask, do - it will most likely save you some headaches later (for example - when we were approached by police as we were hiding a cache - stating we had the permission of the parks superindendent was all that was needed for them to leave us to it)

[+Kai Team]

That being said, we do have some caches where no "official" approval was granted mainly because we didn't know who to contact to ask!

If there's no way to tell who owns the land, how do you know it's public land? And if you know who owns the land (i.e. some public entity), then you also know (or can find out) who manages it. The "I didn't know who to ask" defense for not getting permission is a weak one, IMO (As a notorious local attorney used to say in his ads. "Ignorance is bliss, but it won't hold up in court").

 

PS - In most cases, you can figure out who owns the land by checking the tax records, which are increasingly available on line. See this site for example. Even when they're not online, real estate tax records are public information, usually on file at the local courthouse or county seat.

[+Ed_S]

Treedweller, I have five caches out, and all five are in public parks, both local and state. In all five, I not only got permission, but when submitting the cache for approval I included who gave me the permission, so if there was a question at some later point in time, my approver would have on record that information. (I'm assuming the drafts sent to the approver are archived somewhere and not just deleted. Even if they are deleted, the approver knows my approvals are legit.)

 

Obviously, I can't speak for anyone else but me, but that's the standard I hold myself to.

[+mini cacher]

Not that I am for or against the attitude but many take the postion that it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission. To each his own.

[+hellifiknow]

If there's no way to tell who owns the land, how do you know it's public land? And if you know who owns the land (i.e. some public entity), then you also know (or can find out) who manages it.

The one example we can think of it a public or town square. I'd guess the city owns it - so do you contact someone in city hall? Would that be the Parks Department? If so - already talked them and they're hip to geocaching... If not parks, then who? You can find out who owns it - but finding out who exactly to talk to can be a royal PITA.

 

Yeah - it's a lame excuse... which is why most of our whopping 12 cache hides have been in city parks where we had permission.

 

Ohhh... and another of our hides is a toss up between a historical society, the city, and a citizen's group. Not a mess we'd like to untangle. If anyone complains, we'll gladly remove the cache!

[+BadAndy]

No. I also don't ask for permission to play frisbee, have a picnic, or fly a kite.

 

If it's posted no dogs, I leave rover at home.

[+wkhaz]

Caches at or near schools below the college level have been on the "off limits" list since the February update to the listing guidelines, so that question is moot.

Per Geocaching.com... "These are listing guidelines only."

 

I placed a cache (Lex-El Trail) on a nature trail at a local elementary school without too much trouble at all.

 

Prior to placing the cache, I received written permission from the school administrator. The school administrator was very enthusiastic about the cache and thought is was a great idea for teaching kids about geography. The administrator even received the blessings from the county school board.

 

The cache was originally stocked with numerous educational CD-ROMS and a travel bug (Woody’s Adventure).

[+mtn-man]

Not that I am for or against the attitude but many take the postion that it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission. To each his own.

Kind of like with the National Park Service. That worked really well with them.

 

[+reveritt]

I always ask permission. I go into the woods, find a good hiding spot, and say "is it OK if I hide a geocache here." If I don't hear any objections, then I hide the cache.

[Keystone]

I always ask permission. I go into the woods, find a good hiding spot, and say "is it OK if I hide a geocache here." If I don't hear any objections, then I hide the cache.

I was sitting at my PC, looking at reveritt's list of hidden caches. I shouted, "does anybody mind if I archive these?" and I heard no objections...

[+Criminal]

I always ask permission.  I go into the woods, find a good hiding spot, and say "is it OK if I hide a geocache here."  If I don't hear any objections, then I hide the cache.

I was sitting at my PC, looking at reveritt's list of hidden caches. I shouted, "does anybody mind if I archive these?" and I heard no objections...

Don't get me going Key.....

[+reveritt]

I always ask permission.  I go into the woods, find a good hiding spot, and say "is it OK if I hide a geocache here."  If I don't hear any objections, then I hide the cache.

I was sitting at my PC, looking at reveritt's list of hidden caches. I shouted, "does anybody mind if I archive these?" and I heard no objections...

I object.

[+Colorado Cacher]

Schools are area that is off limits. But when it comes to public parks, national forests and places that are used by the public in large, I ask myself one question.

Does anyone ask permssion to ride their bike in the park or walk their dog, or go play with their kids. When they have to ask permission is when I'll ask permission, and give up caching and go underground.

Bingo! This is just the same as picking up poop when out walking your Dog.

 

A pet is a pet. Why don't Horse riders/owners pickup after their pets on the trail?

 

A pets a pet.