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Common Courtesy


TeamTalan
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It is beginning to really bug me that many cachers do not perform CITO while logging finds. Several caches that I have visited have had garbage nearby that obviously predates the last visitors. I went to do cache maintenance at one of our caches and it was disgusting...trash right up against the container!

Secondly, at this same site (an urban cache) the container was left in a manner that made it obvious to all, cachers and muggles alike, that this was not what it was disguised to be. That's no fun on so many levels. It is beginning to bother me to the point of deleting their logs when I inspect periodically and find these conditions so soon after the visits. (The area I mention is fairly secluded and should be easily maintained.)

Part of our fun is directly related to the CHALLENGE of finding the caches and the other part is enjoying the GARBAGE-FREE scenery where fellow cachers have made placements for our benefit.

I wrote a posting in the "Getting Started" section of this forum that should be reviewed by everyone that may have forgotten some of our basic responsibilities as geocachers.

 

Thanks for your attention to this.

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You can do what you want, but I'd be very careful about deleting someone's log because you think they didn't pick up trash. I don't see how you could conclusively link the two and, even if you did, deleting someones log is pretty rude and should be limited to situations where obvious clues about the cache are given or the language is abusive.

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It is beginning to really bug me that many cachers do not perform CITO while logging finds.  Several caches that I have visited have had garbage nearby that obviously predates the last visitors.  I went to do cache maintenance at one of our caches and it was disgusting...trash right up against the container!

  Secondly, at this same site (an urban cache) the container was left in a manner that made it obvious to all, cachers and muggles alike, that this was not what it was disguised to be.  That's no fun on so many levels.  It is beginning to bother me to the point of deleting their logs when I inspect periodically and find these conditions so soon after the visits.  (The area I mention is fairly secluded and should be easily maintained.)

  Part of our fun is directly related to the CHALLENGE of finding the caches and the other part is enjoying the GARBAGE-FREE scenery where fellow cachers have made placements for our benefit.

  I wrote a posting in the "Getting Started" section of this forum that should be reviewed by everyone that may have forgotten some of our basic responsibilities as geocachers.

 

Thanks for your attention to this.

I agree with Joypa. I sure wouldn't delete anyone's log because you don't know who left the trash, or when it got there.

 

I am distressed when I see things that are very likely to have been left by a previous cacher. On my way down a hill from a cache yesterday, in a place "regular" people are not likely to walk, I found two AA batteries.

 

I picked them up and put them in the trash can about 50 yards away . . . which was on the way back to the parking lot.

 

Can't imagine anyone but a cacher being in that place and needing to replace batteries . . . :P

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:P Lots of people are totally unobservant of trash.

I might be going out on a limb here but a much more diplomatic way could be to send an email asking if the person(s) you are targeting noticed any trash around when they visited that cache. :P

Edited by deimos444
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:lol: Lots of people are totally unobservant of trash.

I might be going out on a limb here but a much more diplomatic way could be to send an email asking if the person(s) you are targeting noticed any trash around when they visited that cache. :rolleyes:

A much better idea than deleting legitimate "found" logs. If you start deleting found logs, because you think they should of picked up someone else's trash, you won't make many friends in this hobby.

 

Punishing cachers for not CITOing is a bad idea. Encouraging others to help pick up trash is different.

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Wind, even in a wooded area, can carry trash quite a ways. I wouldn't assume that trash there today was there yesterday no matter how old it looks. It's also possible they didn't see it, didn't have a trash bag on them, they were just stopping at the cache on their way through town and didn't have time to pick up trash someone else threw on the ground... Maybe if it is such a concern for you it would be a good idea to put a sign on or in the cache saying "Please CITO" to remind people to look around and pick up trash. You could also put some trash bags in you caches for those who don't have one.

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We try to make a conscious effort to do some CITO when we cache. It's a holdover from what we used to do when just dayhiking. We are usually armed with plastic bags and hand sanitizer. (Those little Hefty Handi-sacks are great, come in a pack of 10 I think in a convenient compact little pouch. I always have one in my backpack.)

 

Just recently we made two attempts at a local cache that was in an area rampant with litter. The first time we did some CITO, but the second time I didn't have my pack with me and hence forgot bags. The second time we were there (only three or four days later) there was even more trash than on our first visit, despite the CITO we did then. I felt bad that we couldn't do CITO that day, but we'll do some more when we make our third (and hopefully last) attempt at the find.

 

I don't think it's fair to delete logs because you suspect (or even can confirm) that someone did not do CITO. There may be reasons like mine, where I simply didn't have the necessary supplies with me. Especially for an urban cache, those would be the ones where I'd most likely not have them with me. Or the area may be susceptible (sad as it is) to dumping and cachers may have picked up only to have even more trash left in its place [like Dances with Vargs, the cache I was referring to in my second paragraph -- I think TeamTalan may have done this one already, and would know the area I'm talking about.]

 

I do think it's a good idea to put in the cache description that it's an area that could use some CITO [i may have even seen this in some of your descriptions if I recall.] I read your post in the Getting Started Forum, and think it's a reminder that all of us could use from time to time.

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Secondly, at this same site (an urban cache) the container was left in a manner that made it obvious to all, cachers and muggles alike, that this was not what it was disguised to be.

It would be hard to say which cacher did not put the cache back the way is was intended to be placed.

 

As far as the trash issue and CITO, what about caches that are placed in areas the tend to contain trash, we found a cache not long ago that was placed inside a sewage drain.

Edited by JohnnyVegas
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I try and come prepared to CITO when I can. Sometimes, however, I don't have a pair of gloves and a trash bag handy. If I'm out in nice clothes and on my way to a meeting, and I decide to find a few caches...am I really obligated to pick up some disgusting, slimy trash and throw it into the trunk of my brand new car? Please.

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I visited a cache in Japan where posting a photo of your CITO activity is a requirement (or your logs get deleted). When I went there, I had a difficult time since previous cachers cleaned up very well. I had to expand my search radius for trash!

 

That would have been a worthy DNF. <_<

 

Let's make sure the courtesy goes both ways - the owner should inform the cachers ahead of time that the CITO activity will be a requirement - otherwise, pre-emptively deleting logs is kinda rude. :rolleyes:

 

As for the general behavior of people who litter, Geocaching isn't a place to enforce rules in place of bad parenting or institutional failures. If it were, we should be getting subsidies for many of the beneficial volunteer work we perform.

Edited by budd-rdc
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I agree with most of the posts. You should not delete the logs. There are times that we are able to CITO but then we find a place that is totally covered in trash and cleaning a small spot would draw attention to the location. Other times, we are not in a position to pick up used toilet paper and beer bottles. If you provided plastic gloves and bags it might encourage the trash removal. My main question for you is why put a cache where there is so much trash or an area that encourages such trash build up. Maintance by the cache owner who cleans around his own caches, tends to encourage others to keep it cleaner.

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Not long ago, we encountered a cache that was quite difficult to find, completely covered in natural debris in a manner that made it blend into its surroundings. We nearly gave up before finally finding it with a last-ditch effort. Before leaving the area, I was very careful to cover the cache again completely -- I thought, "We worked for this one. I don't want the next person to have it any easier!"

 

The next log? "Found the cache somewhat exposed, but we hid it better." I have no doubt at all that this was true -- but it would be wrong to jump to the conclusion that we left it that way. Things can and do happen between finds, from trash being left to the container being moved or uncovered. Knowing for sure that we'd rehidden this particular cache well, I'll be less inclined to blame the previous finder for anything currently wrong with a cache.

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I will never find peace by expecting others to share my values. Perhaps it's better to shake your head gently, than to shake your fists angrily.

Better to shake your big, ole butt to a funky, funky tune, and do the CITO dance!

 

Lighten up, everybody--we're supposed to be having fun!

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I pretty much refuse to pick up someones elses trash, and don't encourage my kids to do it either. I have an auto-immune disease that leaves my ability to fight off sickness next to nil, and don't want other peoples funky diseases, thank-you.

 

and since my kids MAY have my disease also,as it is inheireted (sometimes it years until you can determine that) I don't want them contracting anything that is going to make them sick, miss school, leave them in the hospital, etc.

 

I do, however take any and all things I ever take on a hike back with me.

 

If there was a conditon to a cache that I remove trash, I would seriously skip it.

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I am distressed when I see things that are very likely to have been left by a previous cacher. On my way down a hill from a cache yesterday, in a place "regular" people are not likely to walk, I found two AA batteries.

 

I picked them up and put them in the trash can about 50 yards away . . . which was on the way back to the parking lot.

 

Can't imagine anyone but a cacher being in that place and needing to replace batteries . . . 

 

Just playing devil's advocate here, but have you ever dropped something into your pocket only to find out later that it had a hole in it?

Edited by maggieszoo
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At one of my caches there's a nearby root beer stand/drive in. I drop film cans with plastic grocery bags and $2 for root beer rolled up inside, then labelled on the outside of the film can. I try to keep a couple of them in the cache at any given time.

 

Works for me.

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Sorry but I don’t even see the connection between CITO and “common courtesy”. :P

I never knew I was obligated to pick up trash. :P

I don’t and I won’t unless it’s a long hike cache and I see a candy wrapper or something similar along the trail. If you don’t like litter around your cache, go pick it up.

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I am distressed when I see things that are very likely to have been left by a previous cacher. On my way down a hill from a cache yesterday, in a place "regular" people are not likely to walk, I found two AA batteries.

 

I picked them up and put them in the trash can about 50 yards away . . . which was on the way back to the parking lot.

 

Can't imagine anyone but a cacher being in that place and needing to replace batteries . . . 

 

Just playing devil's advocate here, but have you ever dropped something into your pocket only to find out later that it had a hole in it?

People DO pick up "trash" falling through holes in pockets, like money and keys. :P

 

My pockets are a bit small for cans, bottles, and newspapers.

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I have the impression that not many people actively participate in CITO, except maybe at organized events. Mind you, I am not saying that they are obliged to--I'm just making an observation.

 

I placed a cache at a lovely seaside location during the winter, when the snow was deep. When the snow melted, I was surprised to discover quite a lot of trash in the vicinity of my cache. I take out a bag every time I do cache maintenance, but whenever I check, it seems to me that there is as much trash as when I was last there.

 

Lots of people have mentioned the trash, but I don't think many have bothered to pick any up. One recent visitor claimed to have done some cleanup, and when I visited not long after, the improvement was apparent.

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I pack out more than I pack in. If you want to yell at me for not tooting my own horn when I do, or tell me that I'm part of the problem because I didn't pack out everthing instead of some...

 

You are wasting your breath. But hey, keep up the good work when you pack it all out.

 

Oh and common courtesy is not littering to begin with. Not failing to pack it all out.

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I went to do cache maintenance at one of our caches and it was disgusting...trash right up against the container!

Why did you put a cache in such a crappy place? Were you under the impression that people would enjoy cleaning up the trash for you? I'm glad to CITO when an otherwise nice place occasionally gets trash, but I don't see the reason for putting a cache in a place that regularly gets trashed.

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It is beginning to really bug me that many cachers do not perform CITO while logging finds.  Several caches that I have visited have had garbage nearby that obviously predates the last visitors.  I went to do cache maintenance at one of our caches and it was disgusting...trash right up against the container!

  Secondly, at this same site (an urban cache) the container was left in a manner that made it obvious to all, cachers and muggles alike, that this was not what it was disguised to be.  That's no fun on so many levels.  It is beginning to bother me to the point of deleting their logs when I inspect periodically and find these conditions so soon after the visits.  (The area I mention is fairly secluded and should be easily maintained.)

  Part of our fun is directly related to the CHALLENGE of finding the caches and the other part is enjoying the GARBAGE-FREE scenery where fellow cachers have made placements for our benefit.

  I wrote a posting in the "Getting Started" section of this forum that should be reviewed by everyone that may have forgotten some of our basic responsibilities as geocachers.

 

Thanks for your attention to this.

Perhaps it bothers many people that you expect every cacher behave the way you want them too? What does it say when you claim the area that you chose is fairly secluded and then turn around and express your disgust at how much trash collects there. If the location is secluded, where does the trash come from?

 

If you start placing caches in trash strewn areas, and then start deleting finds of people you think did not pick up enough garbage, I suspect you would gain quite a reputation with cachers for miles around.

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If you start placing caches in trash strewn areas, and then start deleting finds of people you think did not pick up enough garbage, I suspect you would gain quite a reputation with cachers for miles around.

Maybe that's what he wants.

 

A couple of things:

 

As Fizzy said... why did you put your cache in such a crappy place? Just what the world needs, one more crappy urban micro in another crappy urban area. Whee! I never need a smiley face that bad. <_<

 

And another:

 

Someone posted links of caches where CITO is required. Goody. I looked at the listings and really, honestly feel listings such as that should be marked as 'unknown' caches. I don't want to head out into the wild blue yonder with my GPS full of waypoints, reading that it's a TR (traditional/regular) cache thinking that all I have to do when I get there is find the cache and sign the log.

 

It's NOT a traditional regular. You are required to do something else... and it might be best to read the cache page before heading out. Some of us just don't cache with cache pages. For a t/r... what's the point? You go to the coordinates, you look for the container.

 

All that aside, unless your cache specifically says you HAVE TO PICK UP GARBAGE to log this as a find, you're outta luck and will, w/o a doubt, create more enemies in the community than friends.

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I CITO what I can carry out with me for the sake of keeping an area relatively nice and out of respect for any landowners who are kind enough to allow us to cache on their property.

 

I got a little annoyed today when the guy in the Lexus next to me tossed a candy wrapper out of his window. (I didn't do anything stupid or brazen...I just observed, OK?)

 

I make a trip around my yard when I get home from work to pick up any Dorito bags the school kids left for me on their way across my yard coming back from school.

 

Call me a stupid litter freak.

 

:P

 

I still wouldn't require people to pick up trash at a cache...I would always appreciate it if they happen to do it, though.

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I went to a great caching party in Michigan (MiGO) and they had boxes and boxes of CITO film cannisters with trash bags rolled up inside. They had MiGO stickers on them with info and were pretty nifty. We all took handfuls of them. We dropped the CITO cannisters in caches we visited. Great idea, and a courteous way to encourage CITO to cache visitors who might be interested.

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The problem is not always careless littering by stupid people. I often see trash barrels overflowing, and the stuff blowing around. Here on the coast, seagulls will get into an open trash barrel and make an awful mess.

 

And the problem is sometimes made worse by the complete lack of trash barrels in public places. There is a state park in my town that is home to several caches. A few years ago, in the never-ending effort to cut costs, the state removed all the trash barrels. This is a place that is heavily used by locals and tourists 3 seasons of the year. People have picnics, fly kites, go fishing, etc. Local kids gather in some of the remoter sections late on Friday evenings. Without a single trash container present (and no restrooms open for most of the year) you can imagine the result. Most people remove their trash, but it only takes a few who can't be bothered, and you have a mess. The loose trash blows into the bushes. Of course, as the state is unwilling to pay to have trash barrels emptied, you can imagine how willing they are to pay cleanup crews. Too bad.

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Here's something for perspective's sake:

 

There are some countries which have removed trash cans from public places for fear of terrorism. That is one thing Homeland Security has NOT done here in the U.S., so take advantage of the privilege. :blink:

Edited by budd-rdc
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