You, Too, Can Save 20% On Gas Costs!

[geo_boy_2001]

just wanted to be # 100

[+deimos444]

One of the major problems with electrical drives is the inefficiency of the electric motor.

I have been following a project at a local company where they are experimenting with alternate wiring materials.

Secondhand rumor has it that there may be some success at rates of 60% to 70% efficiencies.

This would revolutionize the entire market.

[+Renegade Knight]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned nuclear as a renewable source. The three main concerns of nuclear have been solved the last I heard; run-away reactions, disposal, and (something else that I forget.)

 

For watching a documentary, the run-away reaction problem was actually an easy fix by giving the fuel room to expand. Doing so made it self regulating.

 

Disposal was solved by a technique of recycling the waste back into the fuel.

 

With a renewable and safe energy source like nuclear, you can charge batteries and use it to convert other sources into portable energy to be used like we use oil today.

 

This is all academic. I'll continue my savings with my right foot until something better comes along.

Fusion is renewable, Fission isn't. All current plants are Fission. Eventually we will run out of Uranium and Plutonium. Fusion really isn't renewable in the traditional sence, but instead there is so much material available that it would last eons.

[+budd-rdc]

Fusion is renewable, Fission isn't.  All current plants are Fission.  Eventually we will run out of Uranium and Plutonium.  Fusion really isn't renewable in the traditional sence, but instead there is so much material available  that it would last eons.

There's an interesting scenario if global events don't go too wacko in the future:

 

When there's severe petroleum shortage, we'll be forced to switch to nuclear energy. We won't have to mine more Uranium and Plutonium (very difficult) because there's a better source for them:

 

Nuclear Weapons.

[+sbell111]

...On topic, 45MPH makes my Jeep GC lug. The truth of the matter is I get better mileage at the higher speed than at the lower speed which surprised me when I first figured out where the sweet spot was.

I just noticed your post. It surprised me, since my WJ neither lugs at lower speed nor gets better gas mileage at higher speed.

 

What engine do you have? Are you sure that it doesn't need maintenance?

[+sbell111]

... We won't have to mine more Uranium and Plutonium (very difficult) because there's a better source for them:

 

Nuclear Weapons.

I assume that you mean those weapons that we have 'relieved' other countries of. For some reason, I still rather like that we have nukes.

[+Team Shibby]

Not to interrupt your environmental discussions of french fry powered cars and such, but the OP has a very good point, so in the meantime:

 

1.) Keep your car properly tuned.

2.) Check your tire pressure regularly.

3.) Drive the speed limit.

4.) Pass gently.

5.) Reduce unnecessary weight. (do you really need that 25lb hydraulic jack and enough tools to rebuild your engine on the side of the road?)

 

Until the day comes when the roads smell like chicken nuggets and french fries, this is about the only way to get the best mileage you can

[+deimos444]

Not to interrupt your environmental discussions of french fry powered cars and such, but the OP has a very good point, so in the meantime:

 

1.) Keep your car properly tuned.

2.) Check your tire pressure regularly.

3.) Drive the speed limit.

4.) Pass gently.

5.) Reduce unnecessary weight. (do you really need that 25lb hydraulic jack and enough tools to rebuild your engine on the side of the road?)

 

Until the day comes when the roads smell like chicken nuggets and french fries, this is about the only way to get the best mileage you can

Excellant advice.

I also change my air filter a little more often than called for in the service manual.

[+treedweller]

[

Of course, you're also figuring in the $3B in government subsidies to make it viable... right? Obviously there's more than one side to every subject but I question the viability of the whole process when each side doesn't take everything into account.

 

That web site you pointed at would be more than happy to paint things nice and rosy. I noticed they didn't go into the cost of energy input versus the return of energy output. What's up with that? If you're going to speak against a study's returns, the least you can do is provide a source for your info. I'll be more than happy to look at it. Until then...

 

You'll notice too, I never said it doesn't work fine, I merely pointed out the output of energy isn't equal to the input of energy. That is, just like petro, it isn't self-sustainable. It's like eating rabbit. You can eat it till you're full, but you'll still starve to death on it.

No subsidies needed; it's viable right now. Given anywhere near the subsidies that oil industry has received, it might even be priced competitively to petrol, but plenty of us are swallowing the price pill now to avoid contributing to the trade deficit any more than we have to.

 

The site I listed is full of BD proponents, and there's lots of rah-rahing, but if you actually delve into the archives you can find plenty of honest appraisal. Look for posts by Mike Briggs if you want to avoid some fluff and get to the substance.

 

There are plenty of people saying BD output is 3 times the input. If you don't want to believe that, and you don't want to look up the citations yourself, enjoy your ignorance. I'm in it for reasons outside this whole input/output analysis anyway.

 

treedweller

[uber_bike_geek]

I typically average 12-15 MPH on my bicycle and about 3 1/2 MPH walking. Is the price of gas going up?

Eh, I'll usually do about 10-15mph offroad with my mountain bike, about 15-18 onroad with my mountain bike, and about 18-20 onroad with my road bike, if I've got my trailer, I'll usually do about 8 offroad with my mountain bike and 10-15 onroad with either bike, and my walking pace is about 3 1/2 or 4mph... I'm not sure about the price of gas, but I've found that my local store just increased the price of a pound of pasta by $0.05

 

See ya on the trails sometime!

 

Happy Caching

Jeff

[nobby.nobbs]

the thing with bio fuels is that they will continue to exist for us for as long as wee need them. lets see planes flying in 20 years without aviation fuel!

 

but back on topic, as has been said, get the car tuned and make sure the pressure's right in the tyres. you'll see a huge improvement.

[+TotemLake]

No subsidies needed; it's viable right now. Given anywhere near the subsidies that oil industry has received, it might even be priced competitively to petrol, but plenty of us are swallowing the price pill now to avoid contributing to the trade deficit any more than we have to.

But it doesn't change the fact there are subsidies that skews the real costs.

 

The site I listed is full of BD proponents, and there's lots of rah-rahing, but if you actually delve into the archives you can find plenty of honest appraisal.  Look for posts by Mike Briggs if you want to avoid some fluff and get to the substance.

 

So there are plenty of people saying the output is better. As I asked for before, provide the pointer for the studies that you get your info from, not anectdotal posts. I'll be happy to read the studies but don't go making me go through a forum to support your say so.

 

There are plenty of people saying BD output is 3 times the input.  If you don't want to believe that, and you don't want to look up the citations yourself, enjoy your ignorance.  I'm in it for reasons outside this whole input/output analysis anyway.

 

Your first sentence here doesn't point to studies. Just anectdotes. Your second sentence was uncalled for. If you want to lift the veil of "ignorance", educate but don't berate. Give me the studies to read. Have I said it enough? Give me the studies to read. I've gone that far and quoted an excerpt of it. Provide the same courtesy.

[+treedweller]

Your first sentence here doesn't point to studies. Just anectdotes. Your second sentence was uncalled for. If you want to lift the veil of "ignorance", educate but don't berate. Give me the studies to read. Have I said it enough? Give me the studies to read. I've gone that far and quoted an excerpt of it. Provide the same courtesy.

Sorry if you felt berated. I didn't intend to get snippy. Frankly, I get frustrated by calls to "prove it." Especially since there is almost always some crappy study out there to support innacuracies about whatever may be the topic at hand, which, to me, means if you want the facts you really have to go get them yourself. But here's one from the good ol' U S of A:

www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/fy98/24089.pdf

 

and, just for fun, an opposing view of the Cornell study:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bgoodsel/post911/pimentel.htm

 

Incidentally, what do you mean, "there are subsidies now?" Are you talking about the rebate that allows a penny off of a gallon for every 1% BD blended into petrol? The one that has existed a few weeks, maybe months? or am I missing some other subsidies?

 

treedweller

Edited August 22, 2005 by treedweller

[+TotemLake]

Thank you. I wasn't asking you to prove anything. Just pointers of studies to support your debate.

 

According to the study done by researchers at Cornell University and the University of California-Berkele, they omitted $3 billion in state and federal government subsidies that go toward ethanol production in the United States each year, payments that mask the true costs.

[+treedweller]

Thank you. I wasn't asking you to prove anything. Just pointers of studies to support your debate.

 

According to the study done by researchers at Cornell University and the University of California-Berkele, they omitted $3 billion in state and federal government subsidies that go toward ethanol production in the United States each year, payments that mask the true costs.

OK, that tells me you're confusing "biofuels" with "biodiesel". They are quite different. Ethanol is an alcohol that can be used instead of gasoline (with some mods, I think). Biodiesel is a methyl ester that can be used in diesel engines (no mods). Ethanol does not get a good return on invested energy, with or without subsidies. Biodiesel gets roughly 3X the input (according to the study I linked, not according to cornell). BD is part of the newest energy bill, which offers a small rebate of $.01 per 1% BD added to petroleum diesel, up to $.99 (or $1.00, depending on who you ask), but I do not believe any subsidies or other similar measures existed before that. Some might argue soy got sunsidies, but I do not count that since soy is the feed stock of choice merely because of convenience. Any veg oil (or animal fat) can be turned into BD. Actually, that's pretty much true of ethanol--it all comes from corn, but does not have to.

 

As in the other thread ("Have gas prices affected your geocaching?"), I think this has drifted well beyond the intended topic. I'd be glad to continue discussion in the general forum (but you'll have to ping me somehow to let me know, since I usually don't read that forum). Sorry if anyone has been annoyed by my hijack.

 

treedweller

[+TotemLake]

Just to add one more remark and I'll let this channel resume it's normal course... My first remark (the burst bubble comment) was on a biofuel comment.

 

It seems, biofuel encompasses both ethanol and biodiesel. I got most of the gist in your latest post from the PDF link. This particular study is on biodiesel and shows significant savings and energy output versus input. But I found the savings to be worth noting.

 

If I'm reading this correctly, the savings (and most of the profit) isn't so much in the production, (because production is a very intense and complex system which is prone to mechanical breakdown), but it is in the by product waste savings as it produces less waste than producing petroleum does. Also, even though I didn't see this in what I've read so far, I do know most of the solid waste is used to produce high protein animal feed. It's the same process for producing vegetable oil for your kitchen and I've done that.

 

Thanks for the pointers.

[+budd-rdc]

As in the other thread ("Have gas prices affected your geocaching?"), I think this has drifted well beyond the intended topic.  I'd be glad to continue discussion in the general forum (but you'll have to ping me somehow to let me know, since I usually don't read that forum).  Sorry if anyone has been annoyed by my hijack.

 

treedweller

I think the off-topic drift was worthwhile. Maybe in the future, this might be on topic, at least for diesel fuel users.

 

Thanks for the interesting diversion.

 

Here are two more fuel saving tidbits:

 

- Drag is proportional to velocity cubed (v^3) so don't drive your SUVs unnecessarily fast

- Trailing edge has more impact on drag than the leading edge - that's why some truck drivers leave their tailgate down, or get a cover for the beds.

[+ParrotRobAndCeCe]

Here are two more fuel saving tidbits:

 

- Drag is proportional to velocity cubed (v^3) so don't drive your SUVs unnecessarily fast

- Trailing edge has more impact on drag than the leading edge - that's why some truck drivers leave their tailgate down, or get a cover for the beds.

Actually, drag is proportional to the SQUARE of velocity, POWER is proportional to the cube of velocity. That's because power is proportional to drag*velocty.

 

If you go twice as fast, you will encounter 4 times the drag as a result of moving through a fluid (including air). You will need 8 times the power, however, to overcome that drag.

 

Also, keep the tailgate up, not down - not only is it safer for a couple of different reasons, it's actually more fuel efficient than putting it down. Don't believe me? Reference here and here and here.

Edited August 23, 2005 by ParrotRob

[+budd-rdc]

Here are two more fuel saving tidbits:

 

- Drag is proportional to velocity cubed (v^3) so don't drive your SUVs unnecessarily fast

- Trailing edge has more impact on drag than the leading edge - that's why some truck drivers leave their tailgate down, or get a cover for the beds.

Actually, drag is proportional to the SQUARE of velocity, POWER is proportional to the cube of velocity. That's because power is proportional to drag*velocty.

 

If you go twice as fast, you will encounter 4 times the drag as a result of moving through a fluid (including air). You will need 8 times the power, however, to overcome that drag.

Yup, thanks for the correction.

[+ParrotRobAndCeCe]

Here are two more fuel saving tidbits:

 

- Drag is proportional to velocity cubed (v^3) so don't drive your SUVs unnecessarily fast

- Trailing edge has more impact on drag than the leading edge - that's why some truck drivers leave their tailgate down, or get a cover for the beds.

Actually, drag is proportional to the SQUARE of velocity, POWER is proportional to the cube of velocity. That's because power is proportional to drag*velocty.

 

If you go twice as fast, you will encounter 4 times the drag as a result of moving through a fluid (including air). You will need 8 times the power, however, to overcome that drag.

Yup, thanks for the correction.

NP, that's one of the first things I learned in aviation school way back when.