Jump to content

Geo-ethics


nfa
Followers 3

Recommended Posts

Hi,

 

A recent visitor to a bunch of my caches stated in their found logs for 2 of the caches that they did not find/touch/log the caches (in 1 case, they didn't want to make the climb with their dog and in the other case they didn't want to go after the cache due to the big hairy spiders surrounding the cache).

 

I sent them a note politely asking them to edit their logs to "notes" rather than "founds". Did I crap on their version of the game by doing so? If they don't change the logs, should I delete the logs?

 

I'm not looking for rules on the subject, just your opinions about what you would do, have done, in similar situations.

 

Thanks,

 

nfa-jamie

Link to comment

If you didn't even get to the cache (the dog one), then it's not a find.

 

If you didn't want to touch it (the spider one), then it's up to you as the owner.

 

I tried two caches in Germany. One was a multi where I did every step except for figuring out the final coordinates. The other was a puzzle that I just couldn't complete because my German wasn't good enough. I didn't log a find on either just because I completed most of the steps involved.

 

If I don't have to go to the cache and give even a semi-valid excuse, does that mean I can log a find?

 

I don't have the gear to explore Antarctica...guess I can go "find" those down there.

 

Since there are mechanisms for them to handle "clearing" it (and maybe they just didn't realize that it existed) off their list, it's not that they are "just playing their game".

 

All that having been said, it's still ultimately down to what the hider wants for their logs. Not like those two smilies are going to destroy the world or even the game.

Link to comment

In my opinion, you did the right thing by e-mailing them with the suggestion. The ball is in their court now.

 

If I were the cacher in question, I would have taken a photo of the area to justify my case - it demonstrates genuine effort and good faith.

 

If the situation becomes hostile, then it might be a good idea to just let it go, but of course, you can note their names for future reference. :rolleyes: (You can always delete the log later, after you make a maintenance visit - they would have forgotten about it by then)

Link to comment

Maybe we need a site mod. When you log a find then a check box gets added to the screen that says "Did you sign the log book?", if they don't check the box then it makes the "find" an "note" when they save it.

 

I am undecided as to whether or not you should delete the logs. The only thing I don't like about fake finds is that it encourages people to waste time looking for missing caches. That doesn't apply in this case, but I still don't like fake finds. I view the Find/DNF log as important information to future cachers seeking the cache.

Link to comment

the 2nd cache mentioned seems to require some clarification:

 

the one with the spiders require a stooped walk down a tunnel for about 60 feet before you can find the cache...they didn't go into the tunnel...

Edited by NFA
Link to comment

It is within your discretion to require the finder to sign the log book.

 

You did the best thing by letting them know the requirement and allowing them make the changes themselves.

 

I'd give it a week (or less) and if they haven't change it, I'd delete them.

 

(Some owner will delete first and give instructions later. It just depends on if you can take all the crying and gnashing of teeth.)

Link to comment
in 1 case, they didn't want to make the climb with their dog and in the other case they didn't want to go after the cache due to the big hairy spiders surrounding the cache

 

I thank that if you dont open it you do not log it

 

and what kind of dog couldnt keep up with a human even up hill and then the dog could have eaten the spider :unsure:

:rolleyes:

Link to comment

Well . . . at least they were honest in their logs so others can read what they said and make their own conclusions about the way that person plays the game.

 

I had someone find the end point to my two-stage cache. He was honest about it and even admitted to "cheating." I sent him an email politely saying that I wanted cachers to see the object at the first location.

 

He wrote back that they would go to the first location someday . . . and did.

 

Maybe if this person understands the way the game is supposed to be played, they will either change their finds to notes, or return to sign the logbook. Whether I would delete the logs or not depends on what kind of response I get to the email.

 

Sounds like the second cache is one more reason to carry a walking stick. :rolleyes:

Link to comment

I think you did the right thing. Its your cache and your rules. Besides, is asking that they actually find the cache before logging a "found it" all that hard a concept?

 

The few times I ran into a similar situation with my caches, I asked the finder to change it to a note and they.

Link to comment
A certain well-known cccacher (who I won't name) logs "finds" on caches all the time, which were not actually found. Usually the excuse is even more lame than the two examples above. If this cccacher can do it, why can't everyone else? :unsure:

 

/sarcasm

For someone that wasn't going to name anyone, you certainly made very pointed hints. :unsure:

 

It's a game. Personally I wouldn't sweat it. You did the correct thing and sent them an email pointing out their error. Leave it up to them what they do about the log. It isn't worth causing bad feelings over. Anyone that reads the log knows they didn't find it.

 

El Diablo

Link to comment

We haven't hidden a cache yet, but when we do, we plan to make it clear on the cache page that if you don't sign the log you didn't find the cache. If someone misses that part then we will have no problem sending them an email reminding them to either change their smiley or go sign the the log. If they don't comply within a week or so then we will use the delete button.

 

I would never log a find with out signing the log book or meeting the requirements as stated. But in the end, I only have to answer to my conscience.

Link to comment

I know you didnt want the rules (guidelines) but they are my opinion,

 

The responsibility of your listing includes quality control of posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements.

 

If you do get to the cache and log the find in the cache you didnt find the cache. (first one). If you really believe the spider one is true thats a judgement call on your part.

 

Me I never allowed anything but real logged finds when I had caches placed. Thats my opinion.

Link to comment
Here's a thought... so what if they are "cheating"?  Who are they cheating?  THEMSELVES.  Personally, I have logged every one of my meager 267 finds.  If someone wants to claim a find when they didn't actually find it...well, to me that's like cheating in Solitaire.  What's the point?

Ummm, when you log a find you are in essence telling the geocaching community that the cache is there. If you lie about it, your fellow geocachers may waste their time looking for a cache that is missing. I recall one geocacher who was lured into a 50 mile RT drive to hunt a long missing cache after someone lied about a find on it.

 

You're also telling the owner that the cache is there, when in reality he might need to make a visit to check on it.

 

Its not cheating at Solitaire. With geocaching, your lies can and do affect other people whether you're Cccacher or Joe Justarted

Edited by briansnat
Link to comment
we plan to make it clear on the cache page that if you don't sign the log you didn't find the cache.

Unless you have some really special requirement, like a virtual that needs an answer, or a photo of trash you picked up, it’s not necessary to state it.

 

98% of the people are going to sign it to claim it.

Link to comment

I'm comfortable with the notion that finding the cache = signing the log. Not because it's obvious and right, but because it's clear and understandable.

 

My very first find was frozen solid in a log and I couldn't sign the book. I counted it (you better BELIEVE I counted it). But when I later learned that signing the book was the gold standard, I went back and did that thing.

Link to comment

I once had a cacher log a find when the cache was missing. I asked that it be changed to a note. The person expressed disagreement, but changed it and later found the replacement. If they had not changed it, I likely would have shrugged it off and not deleted it. But the choice there is up to the cache owner and I see nothing wrong at all with deleting the logs if you desire to do so. I can see both reasons to let it slide, and reasons to delete. In the end it depends on the owner's view and the circumstances. For example, deleting in some cases could cause more caching community angst than it is worth, and in my case I just didn't really care all that much. People play by their own rules, and the guy in my case meant no harm and really felt he was justified in logging the find. Yet there is also the concern that if not deleted it seems like letting someone "cheat" and that can be bad and cause hard feelings in the community if it continues over time. Plus it can lead to the impression that the cache is still there and if it is not, that misleads people. In my case I had already replaced the cache, so that would not have come into play.

 

In the end there is likely no clear cut right or wrong there.

Link to comment
We went to a cache recently that had a broken mechanical pencil with no led. The catch was not listed as a micro or 'bring your own pen' and we didn't have anything to write with. We traded items.

 

How many of you would count this? BTW we logged a note, but that's all we ever do.......

I would have tried to find a creative way to sign. Perhaps with a stick (impress or rub my initials). I have done that before! If that didn't work, I would probably log the find but note the dilema and offer to change to a note if they desired. If they asked me to I would. If I was the owner in such a circumstance I would allow the find and go replace the pencil. Examples like this are why I think it really can depend on the circumstances.

Link to comment
We went to a cache recently that had a broken mechanical pencil with no led. The catch was not listed as a micro or 'bring your own pen' and we didn't have anything to write with. We traded items.

 

How many of you would count this? BTW we logged a note, but that's all we ever do.......

Good question.

 

Make your mark is usually enough. I've heard of people writing in mud, charcoal or whatever, and mentioning the method in the log. Pretty easy for the owner to confirm.

Link to comment
:unsure: We did try and 'etch' but that seemed to imprint all the pages behind it as well, then we looked for some kind of rock or stick that would leave a mark... nothing.... not an issue tho, like I said we leave notes... I think listing the trade could prove one was there as much as leaving a mark in mud or other alternative method.. Edited by teamjack&birdie
Link to comment
I'm comfortable with the notion that finding the cache = signing the log. Not because it's obvious and right, but because it's clear and understandable.

 

My very first find was frozen solid in a log and I couldn't sign the book. I counted it (you better BELIEVE I counted it). But when I later learned that signing the book was the gold standard, I went back and did that thing.

I think that's called integrity.

Link to comment
We went to a cache recently that had a broken mechanical pencil with no led. The catch was not listed as a micro or 'bring your own pen' and we didn't have anything to write with. We traded items.

 

How many of you would count this? BTW we logged a note, but that's all we ever do.......

I think you found the cache, so its a find. The point of this sport is finding caches, not where they were, or might have been, or where you're sure it was. If you have the cache in hand (unless part of the puzzle is accessing the logbook), you found it.

 

BTW, when this has happend to me, I've used sticks dipped in mud, lit ends of cigars, soft stones and my thumbnail to mark the log.

 

In the end, you either find the cache or you don't. If you're so obsessed with numbers that you're willing to throw your integrity out the window for the sake of a smiley, then hey there is nothing any of us can say. Play your own game regardless of the affect it has on others.

Link to comment

This is definately one that is up to each individual cache owner, but in these 2 cases, it doesn't sound like they got close enough to the caches to count them, so I'd make them change to a note or delete.

 

With that being said, there ARE exceptions. For instance, a cache I recently attempted had been logged 2 days previous saying that while retrieving the cache, the person was stung repeatedly by a hive of bees. After finding the likely location, I disturbed the area to check for bees, and about a dozen flew out. I decided it wasn't worth risking an attack, but took a picture of the cache location and sent this after posting a note. The owner verified the location, and allowed me to log as a find.

Link to comment

As the cache owner I think it's up to you. Different people do play differently, but I believe your approach is fair. The email asked them to change the log type, if the don't change they log, I believe it's your decision, if it were me I'd let it slide, simply because I don't care about anybody else's numbers but my/our own. We don't log "smilies on caches we don't open. I make that distinction because sometimes it's impossible to sign the log, either because it's a pulpy mess or some other physical constraint, in those cases we either replace the log, or leave some other evidence that we found the cache.

If the cache owner emails us and says that's not good enough and requests we change the log to a note, we would... but that's how WE play the game.

 

$0.02

Link to comment

I suppose that I have just been lucky. I had an very experienced cacher swing by one of my caches and leave a DNF and over the next few days a couple of new cachers came by and couldn't find it--so they decided that it wasn't there, and logged the smiley.

 

I was on vacation when that happened, and read the logs when I got back in town a few days later. I went to check on the cache, and it was exactly where I had left it. I left a note on the page saying that I had checked on the cache and all was fine. They both removed their smileys and changed them to notes.

Link to comment

I'd have sent the same email you did - but I probably wouldn't delete the "found" logs.

I thought I would delete bogus logs, but I discovered when I actually got a couple of DNF=Found type logs on a missing cache, that in practice I never actually deleted the logs. I just hustled out there and replaced the missing cache. I did get an email recently from a user who found the mount but not the cache - I don't remember if the log was a DNF or a note, but after I verified on the cache page that the cache was missing, he emailed and asked if he could turn his log into a Smiley. I said no.

Link to comment
I suppose that I have just been lucky. I had an very experienced cacher swing by one of my caches and leave a DNF and over the next few days a couple of new cachers came by and couldn't find it--so they decided that it wasn't there, and logged the smiley.

 

I wouldn't even think of loggong a cache uless I signed the log book. It kind of makes me wonder how many seekers claim finds they have not found.

Link to comment

I would say not many. I recently archived three of my caches and retrieved them from the woods. When I got home, I checked the paper logs against the logs on the GC.com site and found no inaccuracies or false logs, except for one person who signed the the notebook and forgot to log on the site!

I think most folks are basically honest.

Link to comment
I sent them a note politely asking them to edit their logs to "notes" rather than "founds". Did I crap on their version of the game by doing so? If they don't change the logs, should I delete the logs?

Yes maybe, but some pirates have thought they're verison is cool too. (I realize stealing caches isn't the same as faking finds, but the general idea of geocaching, is find it sign it put it back.)

Yea I think you should, I probably would. You've explained to them how things should be done, they can comply or not.

Link to comment

For those interested in how this turned out:

 

The cacher I sent the emails to changed their logs from "found" to "note" for the 2 caches in question.

 

After thinking about it, and reading through all of the responses, I'm comfortabel with my having sent the email as the right thing (for me) to do.

 

I'm not certain what I would have done if they hadn't changed their logs: it probably would have depended on their response to me...if they had emailed me back with a polite explanation of why they wanted to count it as a a find, I probably would have left it alone...If they had been rude, I probably would have deleted their log altogether.

 

I'm glad it turned out the way it did...thanks for all of your thoughtful input.

 

nfa-jamie

Link to comment

We're probably beating this topic to death, but my .02 worth: The only time I've ever claimed a find without signing the log is when there was no signable log -- either the cache was open/scattered/damage, or the log was too wet to sign. I had someone find a 5-part multi of mine by accidentally stumbling upon WP#3 (a tiny micro in a hollow tree, no less) while looking for another cache. Bottom line is they found the final without ever finding WP's 1 & 2. My thought is "Good for them" -- sometimes you just get lucky and finding the cache with the log is what it's all about. If it really bothers you, you could switch to Terracaching, where they require a confirmation code from the cache to log a find. I know Groundspeak's stand on the subject of confirmation codes is that signing the log is proof that you found the cache. So basically, no signee the logee, no findee the cachee! :P

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Followers 3
×
×
  • Create New...