Lost Satellites??

[+JohnnyRotten]

Did anyone else lose all satellite reception on Saturday 7/23/05 between approximately 1700 and 1800hrs? I was flying with a friend of mine today, and we were over the Great South Bay, (Southern Long Island) when suddenly both of our GPSr's lost ALL sats. My friend has a Garmin GPSmap196 in his plane, and I had my Garmin GPSmap60 CS. We were between Gabreski airport and Long Island/ MacArthur airport, when suddenly, we lost all satellite reception. We turned North, and when we got near the "Stacks" near Northport, LI, I started picking up one or two sats, but not enough for a reading. As we flew past the stacks going East, a few hours earlier, the sat reception was perfect. We didn't pick up full satellite reception again until we neared Lincoln Park airport. I could understand one unit or the other starting to act up, but for both to lose all sat reception at the same time, had to be more than just a coincidence. Any ideas????

[+Harry Dolphin]

Ah, Johnny. You have found the northern extension of the Bermuda Triangle! There is something strange about Great South Bay. That's where the Navy tests new ships. That's where airplanes disappear. Are you sure you want to fly over this area?

[avroair]

Were there any saucers in the sky?

[+JohnnyRotten]

Nope, just two jackasses in a Cessna Skyhawk.

[+GPS_David]

Did anyone else lose all satellite reception on Saturday 7/23/05 between approximately 1700 and 1800hrs? I was flying with a friend of mine today, and we were over the Great South Bay, (Southern Long Island) when suddenly both of our GPSr's lost ALL sats. My friend has a Garmin GPSmap196 in his plane, and I had my Garmin GPSmap60 CS. We were between Gabreski airport and Long Island/ MacArthur airport, when suddenly, we lost all satellite reception. We turned North, and when we got near the "Stacks" near Northport, LI, I started picking up one or two sats, but not enough for a reading. As we flew past the stacks going East, a few hours earlier, the sat reception was perfect. We didn't pick up full satellite reception again until we neared Lincoln Park airport. I could understand one unit or the other starting to act up, but for both to lose all sat reception at the same time, had to be more than just a coincidence. Any ideas????

We had horrible reception on our hike on Saturday at the Muttontown Preserve and everyones GPS seemed to be all over the place. I lost reception quite a few times and that is unusual for my Yellow E-trex.

 

It could have been the trees but I have never had reception that was so bad. Most times I was hitting maybe 2 sats.

 

Dave

[+JohnnyRotten]

Your experience sounds similar to ours. We were flying along, when all of a sudden BAM!!! both gps units beeped "lost satellite reception." This was simultaneous, and I don't believe in coincidence. For one or the other to lose the sats, I would have a hundred reasons why that could happen. After many minutes of no reception, we got back one or two sats at a time, but never enough to get a solid lock on our location. It was very strange. Not that big brother owes us any explanation, but maybe he was re-tasking the sats or something????

[+JohnnyRotten]

I think I found the answer. I spoke to a tech at Garmin today, and apparently the government (military) and "spoof" your GPS if you get too close to a military base. They hit it with a radio beam that scrambles the units brains for a period of time. No long term "damage or memory loss." I don't believe in coincidence, and for two units to lose all their satellites at the same precise moment, defies all logic. So, no aliens, no flying saucers, no Bermuda Triangle, just two jerks in a Cessna Skyhawk that must have gotten too close to a military installation. God I love science and technology.

[+Tiffany's Slaves]

And the Long Island military base that you were flying near was???

[+JohnnyRotten]

Francis S. Gabreski ANGB

 

Francis S. Gabreski Airport (ANGB) is located in Long Island (Westhampton Beach, Suffolk County), New York, approximately 80 miles east of New York City. It is home to the 106th Rescue Wing which operates HC-130 Hercules and MH-60G Black Hawk helicopters to provide war and peacetime aerial rescue services. The base encompasses 88 acres and contains 34 buildings; 32 Industrial and 2 Services, amounting to approximately 311,000 square feet. There is no family or transient housing. The day-to-day base population is approximately 250 personnel; however, one weekend each month the population surges to 826 in response to Air National Guard drills.

 

And you were saying? (you can remove your foot from your mouth before you talk.)

 

We were transitioning Long Island (South to North) between Gabreski and Long Island / MacArthur Airport.

Edited July 28, 2005 by JohnnyRotten

[+Tiffany's Slaves]

Francis S. Gabreski ANGB

 

Francis S. Gabreski Airport (ANGB) is located in Long Island (Westhampton Beach, Suffolk County), New York, approximately 80 miles east of New York City. It is home to the 106th Rescue Wing which operates HC-130 Hercules and MH-60G Black Hawk helicopters to provide war and peacetime aerial rescue services. The base encompasses 88 acres and contains 34 buildings; 32 Industrial and 2 Services, amounting to approximately 311,000 square feet. There is no family or transient housing. The day-to-day base population is approximately 250 personnel; however, one weekend each month the population surges to 826 in response to Air National Guard drills.

 

And you were saying? (you can remove your foot from your mouth before you talk.)

 

We were transitioning Long Island (South to North) between Gabreski and Long Island / MacArthur Airport.

Considering that I have spent over 30 years in the military and currently work in the industry that makes devices such as what you refer to, I can tell you that it is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY that a small ANG base would have such a thing and EVEN IF THEY DID, the rules against using this sort of thing within the US are EXTREMELY STRICT. People lose their careers and pensions for FAR LESS then this.

 

You really need a lot more then "a tech from Garmin says the military does this sometimes" and then picking a military installation off the map.

 

By the way, if I was going to investigate this, I'd look at a few salient points so as not too appear too clueless...

 

1. Was that unit even DRILLING on that day... many reserve bases operate on only one weekend a month.

 

2. Your timeline is between 1700 and 1800 PM. When reservists are drilling, they are usually done for the day before 1700.

 

3. If the Lincoln Park that you mention is the one in Northern NJ and your reception only improved when you got near there then it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that a device at the ANG base caused your problem. GPS can EASILY be jammed or spoofed over a small area but doing this over a wide area is MUCH more involved. Remember, this could also blank out Commercial airplanes going into Kennedy and Laguardia to say nothing of Islip.

 

Bottom Line.. VERY UNLIKELY... In fact, I'd go further then that and say its right up there with the claim that a Navy Destroyer shot down the TWA 747 in that same area.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Bottom Line.. VERY UNLIKELY... In fact, I'd go further then that and say its right up there with the claim that a Navy Destroyer shot down the TWA 747 in that same area.

Dunno, Tiff. My sister's a QAR with SUPSHIP, and she's out on sea trials on destroyers in that area a couple of times a year. Strange things go on there. She denies that a destroyer shot down the plane, too.

That's why I opted for the explanation of Bermuda Triangle.

It certainly does not sound like an area that I'd want to travel through.

[+JohnnyRotten]

What I can't figure is this: I go onto this forum to try and find an explanation as to what happened. Admittedly, there are dozens of things that could cause a GPS unit to lose it's satellites. But for two fairly expensive units (a Garmin GPSmap196 aviation unit and a Garmin GPSmap60CS to both beep and lose their satellites simulaneously, that's more than a coincidence. I'll even grant you that maybe something onboard the Cessna caused the problem. But I was looking for answers, not some smarta** trying to embarrass me. I don't subscribe to all these "Big Brother" is watching theories or Bermuda Triangle crap. I was looking to see if anyone on Long Island was out geocaching on Saturday afternoon, and if they were, did they have a problem with their GPS units being able to get a lock on the satellites overhead. Instead I get Mr. Know-it-all who when I prove him wrong starts with this "I know everything, I was in the military for 30 years and now I manufacture those very GPS death rays." OH PULLEAZE Go peddle your nonsense elsewhere. I'm done talking to you jerky. In fact go feed your dog before she whips you. What a maroon.

Edited July 29, 2005 by JohnnyRotten

[+Tiffany's Slaves]

>Instead I get Mr. Know-it-all who when I prove him wrong

 

First off all, I can't seem to find where I was "proven wrong". If you thaough that your response to "And the Long Island military base that you were flying near was??? was proving me wrong, then you misread me. I never said that there was not a bsae on LI, I MERELY tried to get an ID of what was there.

 

As for being a "Mr Know-it-all", thanks for the promotion but I am far from it. For example, the many threads on identifying snakes, critters and one type of tick from another. Heck, I am even fairly clueless about those things. However, after being a long time user of Satellite Naviagation and then working in the industry for a long time, I do have a passing familiarity with this arena. Considering that there are real world threats that must be addressed, it happens that these topics come up pretty often.

 

Sorry that you got your undies in a twist, if you want to ascribe your outage to the military, go ahead... they are an easy target and gee... it COULD be!!!

[+JohnnyRotten]

Once again you insist on throwing down the gauntlet, and once again I feel compelled to bloody your nose with it. We just happened to be getting ready to transition LI from South to North, and had just passed Gabreski Airport when the GPS'rs lost all satellite reception. I would have posted my exact position had my Garmin not had it's brains scrambled. I don't blame the military for ANYTHING. I think they do a damned good job of keeping us safe from those who would do us harm and threaten our way of life. I don't even care if they spoofed our GPS units. Had we only had one on the plane, in all likelihood we would have chaulked it up to something faulty with the unit itself. The fact that they both beeped simultaneously and displayed "Lost Satellite Reception," I find that rather odd. I'm not looking for a smoking ray gun, and if our units were affected by such a device, that's OK too, because I can tell you matter of factly that it worked pretty well. I get pissed when someone tries to insult my intelligence by saying such things as "And the Long Island military base that you were flying near was???" or trying to tell me that a reservist would lose his job or worse for playing with such toys. I only posted something on this forum to see if anyone was geocaching on Long Island at about the time mentioned in my original post, and I wanted to know if they had poor satellite reception. I made no mention of the Bermuda Triangle or flying saucers, as other posters did. I'll tell you this: I recently retired from a job where you come not to believe in coincidence. I always maintain, that if you hit the lottery twice in a week, THAT is a coincidence. EVERYTHING ELSE HAPPENS FOR A REASON. For two fairly expensive GPS'rs to lose ALL reception at the same instant is no coincidence. If we were in fact "spoofed" by someone at Gabreski, I'm thankful that the technology works, and that it did no permenant damage to my GPS. And to that end, I don't want to know anything more about it. Like I tell salemen all the time, "Don't piss on my shoes and then try to tell me that it's raining." Something happened, whether spoofed or the sats were being taken down for maintenence or re-tasking or what. We even went back to the airport two days later and had the GPS units on and set the transponder on the plane to the different frequencies that the ATC's requested us to change to. The GPS units didn't even hiccup.

[Poppa Duck]

To try and re-assure Johnny's claims, stoke the flames a bit more and maybe just get everyone to chill, Poppa has to comment.

 

Yes - I was caching that weekend at about the same time on southern LI. I was caching further east (Montauk to be specific) and no I did not have any reception problems.

 

Hang on folks - here comes the tongue and cheek part and the message to chill out.

 

I was out by Camp Hero - the abandoned army base turned state park. The base that supposedly delved into mind experiments, alien life forms, and all sorts of other weird things. The base that still supposedly receives enough power to energize a small city even though it's abandoned. The base with the abandoned radar tower that mysertiously rotates at night. If anyone's GPS should have been zapped it should have been mine, and yet I had no trouble.

 

My point - it happened - no need for anyone to call names here and take an attitude.

 

Case closed

-PD

[+JohnnyRotten]

Thank you Poppa Duck. I wasn't looking for a hard time, just some info. Your experience that day has been very helpful. From what I have read recently, this "spoofing" device in all likelihood is aimable to a degree (much like a claymore mine.) There is speculation that it can be used very much target specific also. I really wasn't looking to stir the pot and get into this big pissing match. I intend the fly that same route again in a few weeks, and I'll be watching my GPS unit like a hawk. If it happens again, I'll know pretty much exactly where and when. I'm even going to bring a backup unit that I won't turn on until some minutes after the original unit gets spoofed. Hey if I'm doing something that affects national security or something, someone please let me know. The last thing I want to do is piss off the Feds. If they monitor these posts, then they should have it figured out that already that I'm no threat to our Nation's security.

[+BlackBuck]

The F.A.A. also has a huge rader on a hill just north of the airbase.It looks like a giant golf ball which controls all the air traffick going into kennedy.Which could affect your signal?

[+Evil Chicken]

I've been holding off on commenting on this thread - but FWIW, my family was caching down in the pine barrens in So. NJ at that time. My Garmin eTrex Legend went wonky at the exact same time yours did. We stopped caching and went to dinner.

When we got home, I checked the Kp Index - there was a spike in solar radiation near the time our unit stopped working. My highly uneducated guess is that spike was large enough to interfere with our low grade gpsr. I imagine that the military and aviation have much better, more sophisticated technology than my consumer model that compensates for those kinds of spikes.

I dunno.

 

(Think I'll get back to building my new and improved tin foil reflective beanie now!)

 

Mother Hen