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Need Input Of The "community" About A Virtual


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As most all here know, it is near imposible to get a virtual approved anymore. However, I have one that I think should be approved, but so far has been denied.

 

As such, I am following the rules, as stated in the "Listing Regulations", and posting the cache to this forum for the "community" to give feedback as to whether it should be approved or not.

 

The cache is at this location:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...42-5efd62ab362a

 

The waypoint is: GCPTXP

 

The cache page lists all the correspondence between the reveiwer and I. If for some reason you cannot see the reveiwer notes, email me and I'll forward you a copy.

 

I am not looking to start an antagonistic relationship between reveiwers, Groundspeak, and us everyday Geocachers. I am truely interested in constructive feedback as to whether the geocaching community feels this cache meets the criteria set forth by Groundspeak in its own "Listing Regulations" and should be approved as a virtual.

 

Thanks,

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An Error Has Occured

 

Sorry, you cannot view this cache listing until it has been approved.

 

We can't see anything about that cache from the link you provided.

 

I almost hesitate to ask for details since these discussions frequently turn nasty, but how about quoting your justification for this cache in the application.

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Sorry. I forgot the link wouldn't be able to be seen by people other than me and the reveiwer.

 

Here is the corespondence I have had with the reviewer up til now. I appologize for the length.

 

This was my cache discription from the cache page:

 

Virtual Cache

 

This is a Virtual cache.

 

Tribute to our Founding Father

by fluffy&itchy [profile]

 

N 38° 53.366 W 077° 02.094

UTM: 18S E 323512 N 4306475

NE 424.1mi from your home coordinates.

or convert to NAD27 at Jeeep.com

 

In District of Columbia, United States [view map]

Hidden: 7/22/2005

Use waypoint: GCPTXP

 

(ratings out of 5 stars. 1 is easiest, 5 is hardest)

Difficulty: Terrain:

 

This Virtual is one of the most recognizable monuments in the U. S. of A. and maybe the world!

 

 

Alone among the Founders of the United States George Washington earned the title "Father of his Country" in recognition of his leadership in the cause of American independence. Appointed commander of the Continental Army in 1775, he molded a fighting force that won independence from Great Britain. In 1787 as President of the Constitutional Convention, he helped guide the deliberations to form a government that has lasted for more than 200 years. Two years later he was unanimously elected the first President of the United States. Washington defined the Presidency and helped develop the relationships among the three branches of government. He established precedents that successfully launched the new government on its course. Washington remained ever mindful of the ramifications of his decisions and actions, for he was a consummate statesman. With this monument the citizens of the United States show their enduring gratitude and respect. Of all the Presidents of the United States, George Washington is the most celebrated. Efforts to commemorate his legacy began during his lifetime and continue to this day. Down through the years they have taken on many forms. His leadership and service to the republic have been distinguished through the naming of the federal capital, universities, streets, counties, and a state. In addition to these honors, he had been remembered in works of art, monumental buildings, and historic preservation, involving Americans of all walks of life. But none have captured the imagination of the people world-wide like the Washington Monument.

 

A unique feature of the Washington Monument is the 193 memorial stones that adorn the east and west interior walls of the monument. Starting in July 1848 the Washington National Monument Society invited states, cities and patriotic societies to contribute Memorial Stones. The Society listed some requirements to be followed. They asked that the stone be durable, a product of the state's soil, and meet the following dimensions: four feet long, two feet high and 18 inches thick. These stones pay tribute to the character and achievements of George Washington. These traits are not only admired by Americans but by people the world over as exemplified by the number of stones donated by foreign countries.

 

Dedicated - 1885

 

To get credit for finding this one, email me the following:

 

(1)How many lights shine up from around the base of the monument?

 

(2) How many flags surround the monument and what do they represent?

 

(3)Take a picture , with your GPSr and/or you in it, at one of the four Geodetic Control markers that have been placed at the base of each corner of the monument. If you or your GPSr is not in the picture, and the geodetic marker is not clearly visable, your smiley will be deleted.

 

If you have time and can get tickets, make sure you take the tour to the top. It's well worth it.

 

Hours of operation for tours are 9:00 am to 4:45 pm daily. You do not need to go on a tour to get the answers to the questions or photo requested for logging the find.

 

This is the emailed corespondence i have had with the reviewer.

 

1st post by me:

Hi,

I know it's near impossible to get a virtual approved anymore but if any one should be approved it's this one. I don't know how much more "WOW" you can get. I would assume there was probably a virtual here before the re-construction took place. Now that project is finished, it's time to get this one back online.

Thanks for your concideration.

 

His reply:

Geocaching.com has tightened the restrictions on Virtual Caches in the last few years. I am sorry to say that you are the recipient of the note that goes out to many virtual cache placers. Your virtual cache was archived because it did not meet the parameters described here, (visit link)

 

Also, this cache was placed while you were on traveling. Caches need to be maintained -- even virtual caches -- and that may be hard to do if you live far away. This is why the guidelines found here: (visit link) state as follows:

 

Placing Caches on Vacation/Beyond Your Maintainable Distance

Placing caches on vacation or outside of your normal caching area is unacceptable and these caches may not be approved. As the cache owner you are obligated to be in a position to manage your caches, and caches placed on vacation require someone else to maintain them for you. It is not uncommon for areas to be cleared, trails to be blocked or closed, objects used for virtual or multi-caches to be moved or removed, etc. Obviously this monument has been under extensive changes even recently. You must be able to react to negative cache logs and investigate the location quickly. Please be responsible. This guideline applies to all types of caches including virtual caches.

 

The territory in which a geocacher is able to maintain caches responsibly will vary from one person to the next. An active geocacher who regularly visits areas hundreds of miles apart can demonstrate their ability to maintain a cache 100 miles from home. A geocacher whose previous finds and hides are all within 25 miles of their home would likely not see their cache listed if placed 250 miles away from their home.

 

We appreciate your enthusiasm and encourage you to hide caches. However, please recognize we are only asking your cooperation in maintaining a reasonable standard in cache placements. Previous submissions by vacationers at this location have also been archived.

 

NOTE: If you have any questions, do not reply to the archive note email. Click on the link to go to the cache page and click on my name in the archive log at the bottom of the page. You can then send me an email regarding the cache. Please send me a link to the cache in question so I will know which cache it is regarding.

 

Thanks for your understanding,

 

mtn-man

 

My rebuttal to the above:

Good evening,

This email is in response to the archive email you sent me regarding GCPTXP "Tribute to our Founding Father" (visit link)

 

I will take your points one by one.

 

First you state:

"Geocaching.com has tightened the restrictions on Virtual Caches in the last few years. I am sorry to say that you are the recipient of the note that goes out to many virtual cache placers. Your virtual cache was archived because it did not meet the parameters described here, (visit link)

 

My reply:

 

I read through these guildlines before submitting the cache for approval. I re-read them again and, according to the above stated guildlines, the cache I submitted meets all the criteria for a virtual. It is not mundane or run of the mill. It certainly is not common. It is a permanent object. It is a distinct GPS object. It is definately novel, of interest to other players, and have a special historic, community or geocaching quality that sets it apart from everyday subjects. As referenced further by the guildlines "Unusual landmarks or items that would be in a coffee table book are good examples." How much more unusual can you get than the Washington Monument!

 

The criteria for the questions and proof of the cacher's visit is also well within the guildline perameters.

 

The guildlines go on the state the maintenance perameters required to maintain even a virtual cache page. This to me is a no-brainer and I do that on all my cache pages anyway.

 

You stated:

"Also, this cache was placed while you were on traveling. Caches need to be maintained -- even virtual caches -- and that may be hard to do if you live far away. This is why the guidelines found here: (visit link) state as follows:

 

Placing Caches on Vacation/Beyond Your Maintainable Distance

Placing caches on vacation or outside of your normal caching area is unacceptable and these caches may not be approved. As the cache owner you are obligated to be in a position to manage your caches, and caches placed on vacation require someone else to maintain them for you. It is not uncommon for areas to be cleared, trails to be blocked or closed, objects used for virtual or multi-caches to be moved or removed, etc."

 

My reply:

 

You seem to be jumping to conclusions not in evidence. I was not on vacation. I go to DC at least 2 times per month on business. Sometimes more. If you will look at my profile page you will see that I signed on the site in Dec 04 and began finding caches in Jan. 05. also, You will notice I have found caches in quite a few areas outside my "home area". That is because my job takes me out and about quite frequently. The reason I am just now getting to log the DC caches is because my left leg has been in a cast due to ankle reconstructive surgery and I have been unable to walk long distances for a while. If you will also notice, my screen name is fluffy&itchy. Itchy is my husband. By having a plural screen name, when one of us is unable to cache, the other one can go find them and log them as finds for both of us.

 

You state:

"As the cache owner you are obligated to be in a position to manage your caches, and caches placed on vacation require someone else to maintain them for you. It is not uncommon for areas to be cleared, trails to be blocked or closed, objects used for virtual or multi-caches to be moved or removed, etc. Obviously this monument has been under extensive changes even recently"

 

My reply:

 

Yes, the monument has been under renovation recently but even under renovation it could have been a virtual cache. You need not go right up to the building to prove you were there. I was there all during when it was under renovation and still a decent photo could have been had that would clearly show a geocacher and his/her GPSr with the monument in the background. In answering the second part of what you stated above, do you really think the monument will ever be changed so extensivly as to not be recognizable? The resent renovation was just that. A renovation. Nothing was changed, on the ouside anyway. And the cache I submitted does not require the finder to enter the building. It still looks the same as it did when it was built except for the electrical uplighting and the entry portal. Even with the addition of these 2 things, the monument is still the same building and clearly recognizable as such.

 

You state:

"You must be able to react to negative cache logs and investigate the location quickly. Please be responsible. This guideline applies to all types of caches including virtual caches."

 

My reply:

 

I do not see that I would not be able to react and investigate in a timely manner, since I am there as frequently as I am.

 

You stated:

"The territory in which a geocacher is able to maintain caches responsibly will vary from one person to the next. An active geocacher who regularly visits areas hundreds of miles apart can demonstrate their ability to maintain a cache 100 miles from home. A geocacher whose previous finds and hides are all within 25 miles of their home would likely not see their cache listed if placed 250 miles away from their home."

 

My reply:

 

Again, you need to look at my finds. They are not just within 25 miles of my home. As you can see, I travel quite extensively and will be traveling even more now that I have my cast off.

 

You stated:

We appreciate your enthusiasm and encourage you to hide caches. However, please recognize we are only asking your cooperation in maintaining a reasonable standard in cache placements. Previous submissions by vacationers at this location have also been archived."

 

My reply:

 

I understand why you have the rules you do and I wholeheartedly agree with them. However, in my opinion, I have complied with the guildlines to the letter. This monument is a National symbol of our history, our patriotism, and a treasure that all should have the oppotunity to experience. It is certainly not "mundane, common, or run of the mill". The questions asked of the cacher to log the find are specific and require them to not only answer general questions, but have their picture, or a picture with their GPSr, taken at a specific spot at the base of the monument. If the monument were to go back under renovation, one could change the criteria to having the cacher submit a different phote fron another angle. Additionally, the cache was not placed while I was on vacation. I am there, in DC, at least 2 times per month, which is plenty enough to be able to respond to any gliches that might occur.

 

In light of the facts I have stated above, I urge you to reconsider your previous action, and approve the cache as it was submitted.

 

Thank you for your consideration.

Sincerely,

Jan Walker

(fluffy&itchy)

 

His reply:

"Frankly, if anyone is going to have rights to list this monument while

traveling it would be the first people to submit caches here. If your cache

is justified, then so is theirs. I can tell you that it is nearly

impossible to list a virtual cache in DC. It has to be highly unusual (as

the guidelines state). While this is tremendously important to our nation,

who does not know what it is? Who would be surprised when they get there?

 

The last one listed was for the WWII Memorial. It was a fantastic target as

you know, it was something unusual and not just counting bolts and taking

the worn out "take a picture of you and your GPS" verification question.

The person who listed that cache lives in DC. Several others were

submitted, and even one while it was still dirt.

 

Sorry, but I won't change my mind on this one."

 

mtn-man

 

My rebutal:

Mr. mtn-man,

 

You stated:

"Frankly, if anyone is going to have rights to list this monument while traveling it would be the first people to submit caches here. If your cache is justified, then so is theirs."

 

My reply:

I understand that as a reviewer you have a very difficult job and you get cachers that are obstinate about whether their cache should be approved or not. I am assuming, since you took the tone that you did in your reply to my rebuttal, you are assuming I am one of these types of cachers. I can assure you I am not. I have always been cordial and congenial with my reveiwer and try to help out as much as possible to make their job as easy as possible. I am never snippy or short tempered and I always conduct myself in a businesslike manner. You are welcome to ask him his opinion of me. I know for sure he will give a positive response. My rebuttal is proof of this. I stated my case in a most business like manner. I was never accusatory or uncongenial.

 

I never said I had any "rights" to have this cache posted nor did I ever assume I did. If the first people to try to post a virtual at the location I requested didn't get it posted, how am I supposed to know anything about that? I requested a virtual be put there because there wasn't one at this particular time and I felt it met all the criteria for a virtual as stated in the regulations. If others have submitted a virtual to be put at this same location, I would have to agree with them that this memorial wholeheartedly deserves to have one. I do not care who gets the approval for the placement. That's not how a good Geocacher should play the game anyway. Caches are placed for all to enjoy. The cache placer should not be of significance other than the ablity of the placer to maintain the cache.

 

You stated:

"I can tell you that it is nearly

impossible to list a virtual cache in DC. It has to be highly unusual (as

the guidelines state). While this is tremendously important to our nation,

who does not know what it is? Who would be surprised when they get there?"

 

My reply:

I am taken aback at your nonchalance about the who may or may not be surprized when they visit the monument. While you are correct in assuming most people know what it is and what it looks like, when you actually go right up to it and stand there, it is quite a phenominal structure. And at night, it is quite breathtaking, whith the uplighting on the building and the flags. Maybe it is mundane to you, but I can assure a first time visitor would definately not think so.

 

You stated:

"The last one listed was for the WWII Memorial. It was a fantastic target as you know, it was something unusual and not The person who listed that cache lives in DC. Several others were

submitted, and even one while it was still dirt."

 

My reply:

The questions I asked to have answered as part of getting credit for the find were very specific. They were not "just counting bolts and taking the worn out "take a picture of you and your GPS" verification question." The picture I asked to have taken would have the cacher find the geodetic markers at the base. This in and of itself is not mundane or run of the mill. These markers have historic significance.

 

You stated:

"Sorry, but I won't change my mind on this one."

 

My reply:

I am sorry to hear this and as such am requesting you to post the cache, and all of the notes you and I have posted to it, for all of the reviewers to see in their private discussion forum as stated in the regulations as the next step if a cache is not approvedand/or archived.

 

I have posted copies of our emails to each other as part of the "reveiwer notes". This way the other reveiwers can see what our dialog has been up to this point andhopefully it will help them make a more informed decision.

 

I will await the outcome of this step before going on to the next.

 

So now I am here following the stepps recomended by the Groundspeak Regulations.

 

As I stated before, I'm not looking for this to degrade into an "us against them" type of a thing. I want to know what the "community" as stated in the Groundspeak regulations, thinks about whether this cache should be approved or not.

 

Thanks,

Edited by fluffy&itchy
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Well GPSsaxophone,

 

I would expect, from what your tagline says, that you would not be a fan of virtuals placed anywhere no matter what they might be. That is fine. I know some forms of caches are not for everyone. You are intitled to your opinion and I can respect that.

 

However, there are some cachers that enjoy hunting virtuals even if they are as recognizable as this one. This is especially true of handicapped cachers because often virtuals are easily accessed by persons who may be impaired. The Washington Monument is one of the major monuments in DC. It is by no means "ho hum".

 

If one does not care for a particular form of cache, then one should hunt the caches one likes to hunt and filter out the others. I for one am not very fond of puzzels and multi's. I do hunt them sometimes, but when I'm not in the mood to, I don't select them to download. However, just because I don't particularly care for these, I would never want to take them away from the cachers that do enjoy them nor keep new ones from being posted.

 

Thank you for your input.

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Nope...this is geocaching where, by defination of a cache, you need a container.

 

I hope Groundspeak holds its ground so that "visiting America's most popular monuments to collect another smiley face" won't start happening again.

 

I've visited most of them several times. Why is it so important that you make them part of this game which is something totally different. There are other sites that list points of interests like this. I'm sure someone can link you to one of them.

 

Salvelinus

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I'll agree with mtn-man. If you read the guidelines for virtual caches it specifically mentions monuments and memorials as being too common. I would venture to say that the Washington Monument and its importance is known to virtually every american of school age or beyond.

 

El Diablo

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I am very disappointed to hear the opinions expressed so far. Not that I was expecting everyone to agree with me. I expected critical comments. But from the tone of the replies, it seems you guys are missing the point.

 

If Groundspeak continues to list virtuals in the "Regulations" then they are a viable form of cache. An actual container is not needed nor specified.

 

Some of you may have been to this monument many times. That doesn't mean others haven't and would not enjoy seeing it up close. Many people only see it, and others like it, in books but never get see it up close.

 

The regulations do say monuments are too common, but it goes on to say if one is unique, it will be considered. I just happen to think this one is unique. Have you ever seen one just like this one anywhere else? I mean exactly, not a model or a replica.

 

To answer to question about the importance of making them a part of the game, I would have to say because people from all walks of life play the game. Men, women, children, and people of all nationalities. Whether you believe it or not, some of us are not playing this game for the smilies. We actually enjoy going to places, such as this cache would be, and learning more about the history behind it. And as I stated in my previouse post, it is handicap accessable, so that opens it up to the handicachers also.

 

Realistically, I really don't know what all the fuss is about and why some in this game want to keep others from enjoying the parts they enjoy.

 

This cache may for some, as you say, be just another smiley collected at another monument. For others of us, it is a fun way to visit a fine part of our history and play the game at the same time, especially if you have children that cache with you.

 

As a side note, I was warned not to come on these forums and ask for constructive critisism and expect to actually get it. From what I have seen so far, that advisory is correct. I had hoped to get a few open minded inputs pro or con, so that the cache could be re-evaluated for consideration or not. So far the comments posted have been of a non-constuctive nature and seemingly condesending. I am not saying this just because the comments have been negative. Negativity (not agreeing with my position on the subject) is fine. Condesending negativity is not.

 

I understand now why alot of people stay away from these forums.

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I would venture to say that the Washington Monument and its importance is known to virtually every american of school age or beyond.

yeah, but did you know it has lots of Masonic symbolism, too? George Washington was a well-known Mason. The dimensions of the monument, number of steps, dozens of Masonic plaques on the inside, and more come to mind!

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I would also vote against a virtual at the Washington memorial. I am not against virtuals and have even done one of the virtuals in Washington DC.

 

However after doing many virtuals I have come to the conclusion that if you are to place a virtual I would like it to be something I would not have known about otherwise. I know that that Washington monument exist and can see it for many miles when driving into DC.

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The one thing that caught my attention was the distance from your home coordinates. I had a virtual shot down for that very reason.

Yes, that was cited by the reveiwer. But if you read my rebuttal, I explain why I felt like I could maintain the cache. I travel to the area about 2 times a month.

 

Thanks for taking the time to provide constuctive feedback.

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However after doing many virtuals I have come to the conclusion that if you are to place a virtual I would like it to be something I would not have known about otherwise. I know that that Washington monument exist and can see it for many miles when driving into DC.

I have no idea what monument you are talking about. I have no idea what significance it may or may not play in US history. I may be going to Washington, D.C. reasonably soon.

 

If this cache existed, you could add it to your ignore list. Because this cache doesn't exist, I will never be able to add it to my watch list.

 

Geocachers are not all American, remember. And non-americans do often visit the US (me, I live here now).

 

The other thing that may come as a big shock to US Citizens is that people outside the US know very little about either the US or it's history. You're not all *that* important in the grand scheme of things. Write down everything you know about Canada that is fact..... I can probably match the resulting few paragraphs when talking about the US.

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Write down everything you know about Canada that is fact..... I can probably match the resulting few paragraphs when talking about the US.

1. Most of the moose are very, very friendly. Some are really attractive.

2. Mounties can be really, really rude when they see you in a situation that some would call "compromising" but others would consider perfectly natural.

3. Snow in Canada is much colder than U.S. snow, especially when you are forced to lie down on it with your hands behind your head while your ID is checked.

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I would also vote against a virtual at the Washington memorial. I am not against virtuals and have even done one of the virtuals in Washington DC.

 

However after doing many virtuals I have come to the conclusion that if you are to place a virtual I would like it to be something I would not have known about otherwise. I know that that Washington monument exist and can see it for many miles when driving into DC.

You are right. you can see it from miles around when driving into DC. But when you actually get right up close to it, the archetecture is facinating, not to mention the shear size of it.

 

My questions for getting credit for "finding" would have the cacher go right up to the base. The flag question could be answered by looking up the info almost any where. The question about the lights might be too, however, I haven't seen it posted anywhere that I can find.

 

But there was a 3rd criteria. The cacher would have to find one of the geodetic markers at the base of the structure and take a picture of one of them. These geodetic markers have special significance as to the layout of the mall itself. In my opinion, this alone is worth taking the cacher to the site.

 

All I have posted so far is my opinion on the subject. I know opinions are a dime a dozen, but I really do feel strongly that his site should be placed as a virtual.

 

I am following the steps in the Regulations as posted by Groundspeak to help to try to get it approved. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

I appreciate the time you took to respond to my request for feedback.

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I like virts. I think that the Washington Monument would have made a good virt. However, there is a new system on the way to handle both those and locationless. I'd say hold off and do it when that goes live. A little patience can't hurt at this point.

 

 

Edit: typo.

Edited by Corp Of Discovery
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As a side note, I was warned not to come on these forums and ask for constructive critisism and expect to actually get it. From what I have seen so far, that advisory is correct. I had hoped to get a few open minded inputs pro or con, so that the cache could be re-evaluated for consideration or not. So far the comments posted have been of a non-constuctive nature and seemingly condesending. I am not saying this just because the comments have been negative.

 

You asked for input, not constructive criticism. You received your input and didn't like it. I'm with the those who agree with the reviewer. Its a monument and the guidelines specifically state that monuments are not unique enough to make a virtual cache. What makes you think that this one is any different:

 

bennington_tower.jpg

 

But wait, that's the Bennington Battle Monument. There are other monuments around that look like the Washington Monument, so it isn't even all that unique.

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I have done virtually (pardon the pun!) every virtual cache in DC, so you can't exactly lump me in with Sax.

The guidelines are pretty clear (to me) that monuments are no longer listed as virtual caches, and you haven't demonstrated any "wow" to me beyond what every person who travels within 10 miles of DC already gets.

I vote THUMBS DOWN.

Now, since you've played the "we need this so handicapped cachers can play too" card; are you handicapped?

Do you personally know any handicapped cachers?

Do you really think what handicapped cachers want are "gimme" caches they can log as they drive past?

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However after doing many virtuals I have come to the conclusion that if you are to place a virtual I would like it to be something I would not have known about otherwise. I know that that Washington monument exist and can see it for many miles when driving into DC.

I have no idea what monument you are talking about. I have no idea what significance it may or may not play in US history. I may be going to Washington, D.C. reasonably soon.

 

If this cache existed, you could add it to your ignore list. Because this cache doesn't exist, I will never be able to add it to my watch list.

 

Geocachers are not all American, remember. And non-americans do often visit the US (me, I live here now).

 

The other thing that may come as a big shock to US Citizens is that people outside the US know very little about either the US or it's history. You're not all *that* important in the grand scheme of things. Write down everything you know about Canada that is fact..... I can probably match the resulting few paragraphs when talking about the US.

In response to your post, I would have to say there are many interesting artifacts in other countries that we Americans may not know alot about but would be interested to see if we visited the area of the country it was in. The Eiffel Tower or the Egyptian Pyramids come to mind.

 

This virtual was never intended to project an image of American superiority. It simply is a unique archetectural piece that happens to be part of our history that others may be interested in observing up close. Especially if one was into archetectural history.

 

Anyone who would choose to NOT add it to their "to find" list would be well within their perogative to do so. I have things I don't add to my list all the time. I would suppose everyone does. That's the great thing about filters. Put on the list what you like, leave off what you don't. Cool huh?

 

I have traveled pretty extensively, all around the world. I always found there were lots of unique things to see most anwhere I have been. Some the locals took them for granded but they were facinating to an outsider.

 

The Washington Monument should be no different.

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In response to your post, I would have to say there are many interesting artifacts in other countries that we Americans may not know alot about but would be interested to see if we visited the area of the country it was in. The Eiffel Tower or the Egyptian Pyramids come to mind.

I don't mind virtuals that much, but I fall back on the WOW factor in the guidelines on this one and to your point, I don't need a waypoint to tell me how to find the Eiffel tower or the pyramids if I'm in those countries.

 

While the extra information you provide is certainly interesting related to the monument and I understand your desire to encourage people to visit it "up close", I don't think it meets the established (and more restrictive) guidelines for listing a virtual cache.

 

The earlier poster's comment to wait for the new virtual solution may be your best bet...or list your cache on an alternative listing site that doesn't have the same guidelines for listing caches.

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As a side note, I was warned not to come on these forums and ask for constructive critisism and expect to actually get it. From what I have seen so far, that advisory is correct. I had hoped to get a few open minded inputs pro or con, so that the cache could be re-evaluated for consideration or not. So far the comments posted have been of a non-constuctive nature and seemingly condesending. I am not saying this just because the comments have been negative.

 

You asked for input, not constructive criticism. You received your input and didn't like it. I'm with the those who agree with the reviewer. Its a monument and the guidelines specifically state that monuments are not unique enough to make a virtual cache. What makes you think that this one is any different:

 

bennington_tower.jpg

 

But wait, that's the Bennington Battle Monument. There are other monuments around that look like the Washington Monument, so it isn't even all that unique.

It's unique because of what it is not what shape it is.

 

In response to my not liking the negativity in this thread, you are right. Some of the posts have been mean-spirited and condecending, which is totally uncalled for.

 

One can critisize without degrading the person asking the question.

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In response to your post, I would have to say there are many interesting artifacts in other countries that we Americans may not know alot about but would be interested to see if we visited the area of the country it was in. The Eiffel Tower or the Egyptian Pyramids come to mind.

I don't mind virtuals that much, but I fall back on the WOW factor in the guidelines on this one and to your point, I don't need a waypoint to tell me how to find the Eiffel tower or the pyramids if I'm in those countries.

 

While the extra information you provide is certainly interesting related to the monument and I understand your desire to encourage people to visit it "up close", I don't think it meets the established (and more restrictive) guidelines for listing a virtual cache.

 

The earlier poster's comment to wait for the new virtual solution may be your best bet...or list your cache on an alternative listing site that doesn't have the same guidelines for listing caches.

Thank you for your comments. They are very constructive and greatly appreciated.

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I like virts. I think that the Washington Monument would have made a good virt. However, there is a new system on the way to handle both those and locationless. I'd say hold off and do it when that goes live. A little patience can't hurt at this point.

 

 

Edit: typo.

Thanks for the heads up. I was unaware of this info and greatly appreciate you taking the time to let me know about it.

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I have done virtually (pardon the pun!) every virtual cache in DC, so you can't exactly lump me in with Sax.

The guidelines are pretty clear (to me) that monuments are no longer listed as virtual caches, and you haven't demonstrated any "wow" to me beyond what every person who travels within 10 miles of DC already gets.

I vote THUMBS DOWN.

Now, since you've played the "we need this so handicapped cachers can play too" card; are you handicapped?

Do you personally know any handicapped cachers?

Do you really think what handicapped cachers want are "gimme" caches they can log as they drive past?

First of all this one is definately not a "drive by". If you've ever been there you would know that. It is quite a trek for anyone who may be disabled, unless they have some sort of electrical scooter. The questions and requirements to log the cache would require the cacher to actually go to the base of the monument. One could not "just drive by". The 3rd question requires a picture on one of the geodetic markers at the base.

 

Secondly, as a matter of fact I am currently handicapped as my left leg is still in a cast and I am unable to walk for long periods of time without great difficulty. However, my addiction to caching did not go away just because I am slowed by this big ol' hunk of fiberglass that is holding my leg together. I have been very greatful to be able to continue to cache dispite this physical setback because of the caches that have been placed in areas that I could easily get to.

 

Thirdly, yes I do know some handicachers. They are in varying degrees of disability so they enjoy varying degrees of difficulty when it comes to having access to a cache location.

Edited by fluffy&itchy
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Do obvious tourist locations really need to have a cache? Do you think people won't be able to find it without one? I thought one of the points of virtual caches was to show people something they wouldn't ordinarily see. That hardly fits this site. What's next? A virtual to make sure no one misses the Space Needle?

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Do obvious tourist locations really need to have a cache? Do you think people won't be able to find it without one? I thought one of the points of virtual caches was to show people something they wouldn't ordinarily see. That hardly fits this site. What's next? A virtual to make sure no one misses the Space Needle?

Does the Space Needle have an archetectural significance? If it does, then yes, it would make a good virtual.

 

Virtuals are not always finding the object. Sometimes they are about the significance of the object.

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Virtuals are not always finding the object. Sometimes they are about the significance of the object.

No, this is geocaching. It *is* about finding the object with a GPS totally. That is the point you are missing.

Ok, then wouldn't finding the geodetic marker at the base of the structure qualify as finding an object?

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Virtuals are not always finding the object.

Uhm, yes they should be about finding the object. That's what geocaching is all about. If you are just looking for a listing of gps coords of significant places/things, then you came to the wrong place. There are other websites for that. I hear this site may even soon have a place for that, but probably not as geocaches.

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Virtuals are not always finding the object. Sometimes they are about the significance of the object.

No, this is geocaching. It *is* about finding the object with a GPS totally. That is the point you are missing.

Ok, then wouldn't finding the geodetic marker at the base of the structure qualify as finding an object?

Finding geodetic markers is called benchmarking, and there is already a seperate section for them here.

 

here is the monument, and the others are also listed on that page.

Edited by Mopar
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[

Virtuals are not always finding the object.

Uhm, yes they should be about finding the object. That's what geocaching is all about. If you are just looking for a listing of gps coords of significant places/things, then you came to the wrong place. There are other websites for that. I hear this site may even soon have a place for that, but probably not as geocaches.

The following is a quote verbatum from the Groundspeak Regulations:

 

A virtual cache is a cache that exists in a form of a permanent object at a location that was already there. Typically, the cache “hider” creates a virtual cache at a location where physical caches are not permitted. The reward for these caches is the location itself and sharing information about your visit.

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[

Virtuals are not always finding the object.

Uhm, yes they should be about finding the object. That's what geocaching is all about. If you are just looking for a listing of gps coords of significant places/things, then you came to the wrong place. There are other websites for that. I hear this site may even soon have a place for that, but probably not as geocaches.

The following is a quote verbatum from the Groundspeak Regulations:

 

A virtual cache is a cache that exists in a form of a permanent object at a location that was already there. Typically, the cache “hider” creates a virtual cache at a location where physical caches are not permitted. The reward for these caches is the location itself and sharing information about your visit.

So is this:

2. A virtual cache must be novel, of interest to other players, and have a special historic, community or geocaching quality that sets it apart from everyday subjects. Since the reward for a virtual cache is the location, the location should “WOW” the prospective finder. Signs, memorials, tombstones, statues or historical markers are among the items that are generally too common to qualify as virtual caches.

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[

Virtuals are not always finding the object.

Uhm, yes they should be about finding the object. That's what geocaching is all about. If you are just looking for a listing of gps coords of significant places/things, then you came to the wrong place. There are other websites for that. I hear this site may even soon have a place for that, but probably not as geocaches.

The following is a quote verbatum from the Groundspeak Regulations:

 

A virtual cache is a cache that exists in a form of a permanent object at a location that was already there. Typically, the cache “hider” creates a virtual cache at a location where physical caches are not permitted. The reward for these caches is the location itself and sharing information about your visit.

So is this:

2. A virtual cache must be novel, of interest to other players, and have a special historic, community or geocaching quality that sets it apart from everyday subjects. Since the reward for a virtual cache is the location, the location should “WOW” the prospective finder. Signs, memorials, tombstones, statues or historical markers are among the items that are generally too common to qualify as virtual caches.

True, but this is not just a memorial. It is of archetectural significance also.

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[

Virtuals are not always finding the object.

Uhm, yes they should be about finding the object. That's what geocaching is all about. If you are just looking for a listing of gps coords of significant places/things, then you came to the wrong place. There are other websites for that. I hear this site may even soon have a place for that, but probably not as geocaches.

The following is a quote verbatum from the Groundspeak Regulations:

 

A virtual cache is a cache that exists in a form of a permanent object at a location that was already there. Typically, the cache “hider” creates a virtual cache at a location where physical caches are not permitted. The reward for these caches is the location itself and sharing information about your visit.

So is this:

2. A virtual cache must be novel, of interest to other players, and have a special historic, community or geocaching quality that sets it apart from everyday subjects. Since the reward for a virtual cache is the location, the location should “WOW” the prospective finder. Signs, memorials, tombstones, statues or historical markers are among the items that are generally too common to qualify as virtual caches.

True, but this is not just a memorial. It is of archetectural significance also.

Uh, no it isn't. It has the same archetectural significance of hundreds of similarly shaped structures around the world.

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True, but this is not just a memorial. It is of archetectural significance also.

:) Huh?

The Washington Monument is a part of our history, but it's not all that significant architecturally. It's a standard ratio (10:1; height to width) Neo-Egyptian tower. There are ones almost just like it all over the world.

 

EDIT: At least this one might be considered somewhat significant architecturally.

heliopolis.jpg

It is the oldest surviving example in the world, dating back to 20 BC.

Edited by Mopar
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Here's a suggestion -- you could make it a multi/puzzle. Require the cachers to visit the monument to get the answers to the first two questions you already have prepared, maybe add a couple, and use those answers to determine the coordinates to an actual physical cache that you place somewhere else. Have the questions be something that can't be looked up online but require a visit to the monument. As cache-owner you can even put a requirement that to claim a find the cacher has to include the picture with the requirements you stated. The physical cache can be regular or micro, but there would be an actual cache container somewhere. Would the reviewers have a problem if you did that?

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Here's a suggestion -- you could make it a multi/puzzle. Require the cachers to visit the monument to get the answers to the first two questions you already have prepared, maybe add a couple, and use those answers to determine the coordinates to an actual physical cache that you place somewhere else. Have the questions be something that can't be looked up online but require a visit to the monument. As cache-owner you can even put a requirement that to claim a find the cacher has to include the picture with the requirements you stated. The physical cache can be regular or micro, but there would be an actual cache container somewhere. Would the reviewers have a problem if you did that?

Yes, this cacher lives in TN. They cannot maintain the cache.

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[

Virtuals are not always finding the object.

Uhm, yes they should be about finding the object. That's what geocaching is all about. If you are just looking for a listing of gps coords of significant places/things, then you came to the wrong place. There are other websites for that. I hear this site may even soon have a place for that, but probably not as geocaches.

The following is a quote verbatum from the Groundspeak Regulations:

 

A virtual cache is a cache that exists in a form of a permanent object at a location that was already there. Typically, the cache “hider” creates a virtual cache at a location where physical caches are not permitted. The reward for these caches is the location itself and sharing information about your visit.

So is this:

2. A virtual cache must be novel, of interest to other players, and have a special historic, community or geocaching quality that sets it apart from everyday subjects. Since the reward for a virtual cache is the location, the location should “WOW” the prospective finder. Signs, memorials, tombstones, statues or historical markers are among the items that are generally too common to qualify as virtual caches.

True, but this is not just a memorial. It is of archetectural significance also.

Uh, no it isn't. It has the same archetectural significance of hundreds of similarly shaped structures around the world.

Uh, no you are not correct. At least not for an archetectural history buff such as I. One of the things that make this one unique is the different stones from all 50 states and a few foreign countries that haqve been incorporated into the structure.

 

I understand all might not appreciate the archetectural significance, but please don't condecend to the ones of us that do. To you it might look like alot of other simular objects in other parts of the world. To others who like to visit these types of locations it is well worth making the trek.

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Here's a suggestion -- you could make it a multi/puzzle. Require the cachers to visit the monument to get the answers to the first two questions you already have prepared, maybe add a couple, and use those answers to determine the coordinates to an actual physical cache that you place somewhere else. Have the questions be something that can't be looked up online but require a visit to the monument. As cache-owner you can even put a requirement that to claim a find the cacher has to include the picture with the requirements you stated. The physical cache can be regular or micro, but there would be an actual cache container somewhere. Would the reviewers have a problem if you did that?

Thank you for taking this thread seriously. Your suggestion shows you have read the problem in its entirety, and I appreciate the time you took to give such a well thought out alturnative.

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Here's a suggestion -- you could make it a multi/puzzle.  Require the cachers to visit the monument to get the answers to the first two questions you already have prepared, maybe add a couple, and use those answers to determine the coordinates to an actual physical cache that you place somewhere else.    Have the questions be something that can't be looked up online but require a visit to the monument.  As cache-owner you can even put a requirement that to claim a find the cacher has to include the picture with the requirements you stated.  The physical cache can be regular or micro, but there would be an actual cache container somewhere.  Would the reviewers have a problem if you did that?

Yes, this cacher lives in TN. They cannot maintain the cache.

mtn-man,

 

Please don't cloud the issue. I have repeatedly explained why, although I live in TN, I could very easily maintain a cache at or in the gerneral vicinity of the location in question. Since I travel here at least 2 times per month, sometimes more, I do not see this as an issue that should even be brought up.

 

Even when maintaining a cache in one's home territory, one could not reasonably ask for more attenance than this.

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Here's a suggestion -- you could make it a multi/puzzle.  Require the cachers to visit the monument to get the answers to the first two questions you already have prepared, maybe add a couple, and use those answers to determine the coordinates to an actual physical cache that you place somewhere else.    Have the questions be something that can't be looked up online but require a visit to the monument.  As cache-owner you can even put a requirement that to claim a find the cacher has to include the picture with the requirements you stated.  The physical cache can be regular or micro, but there would be an actual cache container somewhere.  Would the reviewers have a problem if you did that?

Yes, this cacher lives in TN. They cannot maintain the cache.

mtn-man,

 

Please don't cloud the issue. I have repeatedly explained why, although I live in TN, I could very easily maintain a cache at or in the gerneral vicinity of the location in question. Since I travel here at least 2 times per month, sometimes more, I do not see this as an issue that should even be brought up.

 

Even when maintaining a cache in one's home territory, one could not reasonably ask for more attenance than this.

I don't think he is clouding the issue.

You claim to visit DC at least twice a month, yet in 7 months and 450 finds (a good sign of a "hardcore" cacher), you have found just a fraction of the many easy DC virtual caches and all of them last weekend. You would think a dedicated geocacher such as yourself would show DC caches being logged every few weeks if you are there that often; at least up to the point where you have logged them all. Based on your logged cache finds it does not appear like you could maintain a cache in that area.

 

Your initial post asks for the community's input as to if it should be listed as a virtual or not:

posting the cache to this forum for the "community" to give feedback as to whether it should be approved or not.

 

I think so far the community has been pretty clear that as a whole the community agrees with your reviewer; that it does not meet the current guidelines for virtual caches.

Sorry that's not the answer you wanted to hear.

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Here's a suggestion -- you could make it a multi/puzzle.  Require the cachers to visit the monument to get the answers to the first two questions you already have prepared, maybe add a couple, and use those answers to determine the coordinates to an actual physical cache that you place somewhere else.    Have the questions be something that can't be looked up online but require a visit to the monument.  As cache-owner you can even put a requirement that to claim a find the cacher has to include the picture with the requirements you stated.  The physical cache can be regular or micro, but there would be an actual cache container somewhere.  Would the reviewers have a problem if you did that?

Yes, this cacher lives in TN. They cannot maintain the cache.

mtn-man,

 

Please don't cloud the issue. I have repeatedly explained why, although I live in TN, I could very easily maintain a cache at or in the gerneral vicinity of the location in question. Since I travel here at least 2 times per month, sometimes more, I do not see this as an issue that should even be brought up.

 

Even when maintaining a cache in one's home territory, one could not reasonably ask for more attenance than this.

I don't think he is clouding the issue.

You claim to visit DC at least twice a month, yet in 7 months and 450 finds (a good sign of a "hardcore" cacher), you have found just a fraction of the many easy DC virtual caches and all of them last weekend. You would think a dedicated geocacher such as yourself would show DC caches being logged every few weeks if you are there that often; at least up to the point where you have logged them all. Based on your logged cache finds it does not appear like you could maintain a cache in that area.

 

Your initial post asks for the community's input as to if it should be listed as a virtual or not:

posting the cache to this forum for the "community" to give feedback as to whether it should be approved or not.

 

I think so far the community has been pretty clear that as a whole the community agrees with your reviewer; that it does not meet the current guidelines for virtual caches.

Sorry that's not the answer you wanted to hear.

If you will go back to the top of the page and read my original post you will learn why I have not cached, although I have been present, in the DC area up until now. There has been the little obsticle in the form of this hunk of fiberglas on my left leg and my ablity to walk long distances without great difficulty.

 

I am more mobil now, thanks to a lttle help, and will be even more mobil as the days go by. I waited until I knew I would be able to physically visit the cache location on a regular basis before submitting it for approval.

 

As to your statement about the input of the community, if you take all the comments that have been publicly posted on this thread, you would seem to be correct. However, I have received just about as many responses via private email. They are not all in my favor either, (about 50-50 for and against, and some are on the fence) but at least they are penned in a civil manner, the people seem to have actually read what I originally posted, and their responses are not in the accuatory tone this thread has taken. The ones sending opinions via email seem to not want to jump into the foray that this subject has become nor be degraded for their opinion as some have made it a point to do.

 

No, the public responses where not freindly to my cause, but I am thick skinned and can take it. However, I see why alot of people don't publicly participate in these forums. Why try to add a contructive comment, pro or con, when there are those that seem to thrive on personal attacks against the participants? Not really woth a person's time to take that kind of crap on a volunteer basis.

 

But alas, since I do not feel I should post the private messages sent to me out of respect for the senders, and the public posts are what the reveiwers and Groundspeak will be reading, I will concede that this issue has been settled. I will leave the thread open but will no longer participate in the discussion.

 

Hopefully a solution can be found by Groundspeak, in the near future, that would have the ones of us who really like virtuals to continue to be included as cache sites.

 

Thanks to all who took time to participate publicly and privately.

Edited by fluffy&itchy
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The Washington Monument is the responsibility of the National Park Service, so Groundspeak and Geocaching.com policies and protocols aside, the National Park Service's active ban on geocaches of any kind should have immediately precluded the cache from being submitted.

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The Washington Monument is the responsibility of the National Park Service, so Groundspeak and Geocaching.com policies and protocols aside, the National Park Service's active ban on geocaches of any kind should have immediately precluded the cache from being submitted.

I don't believe that applies to virtuals.

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