Has Anyone Heard Anything About

July 23, 2005

WTF! You know this guy is probably reading this right now laughing at us. Maybe he is deployed for military service, in the hospital, maybe he has other problems. Maybe just maybe, I know, he got a life and does other things besides caching. Folks this isn't everything.

X

No offense meant to the OP!

Edited July 23, 2005 by Clan X-Man

38.2k · July 23, 2005

WTF! You know this guy is probably reading this right now laughing at us. Maybe he is deployed for military service, in the hospital, maybe he has other problems. Maybe just maybe, I know, he got a life and does other things besides caching. Folks this isn't everything.

X

It might not be everything, but some are not keen on the idea of leaving geo-litter in the woods. It simply isn't good for our sport.

July 23, 2005

My post isn't about the geoliter. It's about the folks getting so mad about something so insignifigant. Some get way to worked up over nothing. If you stay in the forums too long it just pisses you off. I cruise by every once in awhile now because I got tired of the bad feeling generated by stuff like this. This is what the approvers are for. They should find out whats going on and take care of the problem. I don't look at caches I put out as MY property. It's OUR property as cachers. I do agree that we should pick them up after a reasonable amount of time.

Oh, hello from South Carolina, believe me we KNOW what kind of trouble this can start.

JUST SAY NO TO H3777!

X

July 23, 2005

It is not up to this community to decide wether or not it has been abandoned and needs to be removed.

As El Diablo is someone hoping to profit from an association with geocaching, that radical position appears, to me, to be a transparent attempt to dredge material for his publication. My apologies if I have misread your intentions.

But if El Diablo is serious, then we should thank him, and all those of a similar mindset, for forcing government agencies, landowners, etc. into taking a long, hard look at this activity. It's unfortunate that those agencies so often conclude that the potential negatives of the activity outweigh the positives, but hey, that's life. The inability, or refusal, of the geocaching community to assume responsibility for itself only makes those bureaucratic decisions easy "no-brainers."

Edited July 23, 2005 by Yankees Win!

1.3k · July 23, 2005

I hate to return from a deployment only to find that someone has cleaned up my "abandoned" caches.

A simple note on your cache page(s) explaining your deployment (or any other situation) would alleviate any problems you might have with degraded/damaged/archived caches during an extended absence.

Many or most in the geocaching community would gladly restock/maintain/repair your cache(s) while you served.

The key is communication. If you explain the situation, reasonable people will be glad to pitch in and do whatever is necessary.

Edit: Added below.

It is the absence of information that causes confusion. As I (and Welch) said before, if you can't be bothered to explain what you are doing, you may not like the solution that others come up with.

Edited July 23, 2005 by Trinity's Crew

July 23, 2005

QUOTE (Bushwhacked Glenn @ Jul 23 2005, 12:55 AM)
I hate to return from a deployment only to find that someone has cleaned up my "abandoned" caches.

A simple note on your cache page(s) explaining your deployment (or any other situation) would alleviate any problems you might have with degraded/damaged/archived caches during an extended absence.

The rumor of an upcoming mission was why I did not go on to place more caches than my first. I spoke to member of my state’s caching group telling them of what might be happening. A note on the cache page stating I would be gone for a bit and who would be looking after the cache once orders arrived documented the intent. Two responsible friends (both cachers) keep an eye on the cache page and do routine maintance (one works right around the corner).

Problems can be avoided with a little forethought and planning.

1.2k · July 23, 2005

QUOTE (Bushwhacked Glenn @ Jul 23 2005, 12:55 AM)
I hate to return from a deployment only to find that someone has cleaned up my "abandoned" caches.

A simple note on your cache page(s) explaining your deployment (or any other situation) would alleviate any problems you might have with degraded/damaged/archived caches during an extended absence.

The rumor of an upcoming mission was why I did not go on to place more caches than my first. I spoke to member of my state’s caching group telling them of what might be happening. A note on the cache page stating I would be gone for a bit and who would be looking after the cache once orders arrived documented the intent. Two responsible friends (both cachers) keep an eye on the cache page and do routine maintance (one works right around the corner).

Problems can be avoided with a little forethought and planning.

Sometimes, when you are getting deployed the last thing on your mind is your Geocaches. Not everyone has the time to worry about the little things when you have family and big worries to consider.

3.9k · July 23, 2005

It is not up to this community to decide wether or not it has been abandoned and needs to be removed.

As El Diablo is someone hoping to profit from an association with geocaching, that radical position appears, to me, to be a transparent attempt to dredge material for his publication. My apologies if I have misread your intentions.

But if El Diablo is serious, then we should thank him, and all those of a similar mindset, for forcing government agencies, landowners, etc. into taking a long, hard look at this activity. It's unfortunate that those agencies so often conclude that the potential negatives of the activity outweigh the positives, but hey, that's life. The inability, or refusal, of the geocaching community to assume responsibility for itself only makes those bureaucratic decisions easy "no-brainers."

I don't consider my position radical. I actually consider it respecting other peoples property. As I pointed out before, you have no idea as to what arrangements the owner may have made for the care of their caches. Also unless the become total trash there is no reason to remove them.

There is a cache in my area that has been there almost 5 years and is one of the most popular around. The owner of that cache hasn't been heard from in over 4 years. I guess we had better go pick it up.

Another thing. My position with the magazine has nothing to do with my personal thoughts. If it did the article by Trippy on how to set up a cache rescue program to deal with abandoned caches such as the one that MiGO has in place, wouldn't have made the printed issue of the magazine. I was a member of this community voicing myopinions years before I started the magazine.

I agree that leaving trash caches in place gives the sport a bad name. However there are owned caches with active cachers out there that give the sport a bad name. Such as the ones we keep hearing about that get blown up by law enforcement because they were ill placed. Also the ones hidden without permission of land owners/ managers. Then there are the lame ones that new members find and decide the game isn't worth playing. Where do we draw the line in deciding that we know what's best for the sport and remove the caches that don't conform to our way of thinking?

I don't know what the solution to the problem is, and I doubt there will ever be an easy answer.

El Diablo

2.1k · July 23, 2005

Where do we draw the line in deciding that we know what's best for the sport and remove the caches that don't conform to our way of thinking?

There is, at the basest level of this discussion, an absolute truth about the status of a cache. Truly abandoned caches have nothing to do with "conforming to our way of thinking". They are no better than a discarded water bottle on the trail...and a might worse considering they're likely tattooed with "GC.com" and "this is a geocache" all over them.

It's not unreasonable to think that a truly abandoned cache should be removed by anyone (for the good of the environment, let alone the good of the hobby) because it *isn't* their property...any more than that discarded water bottle is someone's "property". That's what it means to be "abandoned".

That's not "drawing a line" that's relative to different levels of quality/conformation for truly owner-maintained caches. They're two different concepts.

Now the only issue arises in determining the "true" status of a cache. There are a number of reasonable ways at getting clues for the status when a hider is no longer responsive. And finally, if it's a wrong determination (a "false positive") the end result is an active cache that gets taken away and most likely there's an email, note on the archived page, or other way that the hider could determine where his cache went and probably even retrieve it. Even worse would only be having to replace the cache...something necessary if an animal or anyone else had come upon it and carried it away.

July 23, 2005

There is a cache in my area that has been there almost 5 years and is one of the most popular around. The owner of that cache hasn't been heard from in over 4 years. I guess we had better go pick it up.

Yes, I suppose you're right. From the quoted passage, it would appear that none of your area cachers care enough about the cache to formally adopt it, so it should be removed.

As I pointed out before, you have no idea as to what arrangements the owner may have made for the care of their caches. Also unless the become total trash there is no reason to remove them.

If someone actually goes to the trouble to make arrangements for the "perpetual care" of cache(s) they no longer want to, or are able to, maintain, I can see no reason that would preclude them, or the individual assuming responsibility for the cache(s), from stating that simple fact on the cache page.

Where do we draw the line in deciding that we know what's best for the sport and remove the caches that don't conform to our way of thinking?

Ju66l3r's response to that question is very good. I would only add that a good start would be to enforce existing rules and guidelines pertaining to cache ownership. That would create more work for the volunteer reviewers, I know, but perhaps it would also lead to an increased level of scrutiny on cache submissions.

Edited July 23, 2005 by Yankees Win!

July 23, 2005

Would posting that information on the cache page be problematic?

<_< And the Yankees Win!

2.7k · July 23, 2005

A simple modification to hiding guidelines can cover the situation, in the event of abandonment of a cache, the local approver will ask the community to remove the cache and the cache will be archived. Abandonment will be considered complete in the event of death of hider, statement of abandonment by hider, failure to respond to a request for repair going more than 60 days, or no participation in activity for 6 months by the owner following notice regarding cache. It somehow doesn't seem all that difficult to address fairly. There are not that many caches that fall into this category and it seems like the situation comes up infrequently.

I hate to return from a deployment only to find that someone has cleaned up my "abandoned" caches.

Why did you choose 60 days and 6 months? These seem like arbitrary numbers? Why not 5 days and 2 weeks or 90 days and 1 year?

2.7k · July 23, 2005

It might not be everything, but some are not keen on the idea of leaving geo-litter in the woods. It simply isn't good for our sport.

Ammo cans last many years in the wood and even tupperware can survive in the wild. If ammo cans and tupperware are such environmental hazards why do we use them? Not visiting a cache for long streches of time doesn't make them hazardous to the environment.

2.7k · July 23, 2005

Would posting that information on the cache page be problematic?

No, but sometimes people forget or give some things a low priority. Due to all of the other things they are doing to get ready. Some things get a lower priority. Almost every deployment I've been on, we have had at least one letter for a frantic parent who wanted to know why their son (usually son) or daughter all of a sudden stoped calling and writing home. Even though it seems like we contantly remind them to let their parents know.

2.7k · July 23, 2005

I looked a few profiles and noticed there seems to a east/west coast trend here. Most east coast cachers have the opinion to leave him alone and leave the caches there at least for a little while. West coasters have the opinion that these caches are geotrash and want them removed immediately.

July 23, 2005

There is a cache in my area that has been there almost 5 years and is one of the most popular around. The owner of that cache hasn't been heard from in over 4 years. I guess we had better go pick it up.

I've done that twice before with approver consent. I've also adopted 2 others that way.

If its not being cared for or properly permitted and nobody will adopt it, whether or not its causing problems or not...it should be taken out. Caches cross listed here and on other sites are so few and far between that leaving it out "just incase" can be ignored IMO.

Salvelinus

edit: Added thought

Edited July 23, 2005 by Salvelinus

3.9k · July 23, 2005

There is a cache in my area that has been there almost 5 years and is one of the most popular around. The owner of that cache hasn't been heard from in over 4 years. I guess we had better go pick it up.

I've done that twice before.

If its not being cared for or properly permitted whether or not its causing problems or not...it should be taken out.

Salvelinus

It is being cared for by the community and is in fine shape. Which brings up the point that if cachers would trade up, trade even or not trade at all, put the lid on back right, not leave it in the open, caches wouldn't become junk in the first place.

If you want to remove geo litter, then you can remove about 85% of the caches out there, active owners or not. One month after placement the majority of caches are junk...defined as geo litter. It's not the owners fault, it's the people that find and trash them.

So run out and remove every cache you deem as a bad reflection on the sport. However remember that chances are it was a good cache to begin with and the same community that wants to condeem it, actually trashed it in the first place.

El Diablo

Edited July 23, 2005 by El Diablo

July 23, 2005

Even though it seems like we contantly remind them to let their parents know.

I think this falls under the uncertainty of life.

Of the many Cal Army National Guard deployments I attended or hosted so many things went wrong that we decided deployment does not mirror real life but is a series of crisis managements.

In real life one can actually plan things with perhaps 98% certainty.

But it never helps to give up.

July 23, 2005

There is a cache in my area that has been there almost 5 years and is one of the most popular around. The owner of that cache hasn't been heard from in over 4 years. I guess we had better go pick it up.

I've done that twice before with approver consent. I've also adopted 2 others that way.

If its not being cared for or properly permitted and nobody will adopt it, whether or not its causing problems or not...it should be taken out.

Why should it be taken out "whether or not its causing problems"? What happened to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"?

Obviously there is nothing wrong with the cache if it has operated for years without an official owner. Or perhaps it is just one of those rare caches that are so well placed they really can run without any attention. We have several of those around here--haven't seen the owner in years, but the cache is still wonderful, still visited, and still enjoyed.

If we see a cache like that become a problem, someone offers to stand up to the plate and take over, but in general, we don't feel the need to rush out to take over someone else's hide just because there isn't someone standing gaurd over it yelling "Mine, mine!"

My community of cachers can't really be that different than everyone else's!

edited because I can't type or spell today!

Edited July 23, 2005 by Team Neos

July 23, 2005

A simple modification to hiding guidelines can cover the situation, in the event of abandonment of a cache, the local approver will ask the community to remove the cache and the cache will be archived. Abandonment will be considered complete in the event of death of hider, statement of abandonment by hider, failure to respond to a request for repair going more than 60 days, or no participation in activity for 6 months by the owner following notice regarding cache. It somehow doesn't seem all that difficult to address fairly. There are not that many caches that fall into this category and it seems like the situation comes up infrequently.

YAY!! More rules and regulations, make it hurt drill sargeant make it hurt.

We don't need anymore guidelines.

X

July 23, 2005

If you want to remove geo litter, then you can remove about 85% of the caches out there, active owners or not. One month after placement the majority of caches are junk...defined as geo litter. It's not the owners fault, it's the people that find and trash them.

That's a wonderfully harsh, extremely cynical, radical viewpoint. But it can't possibly be accurate. Surely, log-only microcaches, virtual and locationless caches, travel bug hotels, etc. account for more than 15% of all caches.

1.7k · July 24, 2005

We don't need anymore guidelines

Ok, I see your point.

I do agree that we should pick them up after a reasonable amount of time.

What is a reasonable amount of time ?

Why did you choose 60 days and 6 months? These seem like arbitrary numbers? Why not 5 days and 2 weeks or 90 days and 1 year?undefined

Why did I choose 60 and 6 months, because when you leave your clothes at the drycleaner for more than 60 days they can dispose of them, but they usually will hold them up to six months, it was just a suggested time frame attempting to be reasonable. What would you suggest ?

Edited July 24, 2005 by Packanack

3.9k · July 24, 2005

If you want to remove geo litter, then you can remove about 85% of the caches out there, active owners or not. One month after placement the majority of caches are junk...defined as geo litter. It's not the owners fault, it's the people that find and trash them.

That's a wonderfully harsh, extremely cynical, radical viewpoint. But it can't possibly be accurate. Surely, log-only microcaches, virtual and locationless caches, travel bug hotels, etc. account for more than 15% of all caches.

It is indeed a harsh statement. In my not so humble opinion, it's one that needed stating. I would think that less than 15% fall into the virtual, locationless category.

I don't know about you, maybe it's only in my neck of the woods....no that can't be right because I've found caches in at least 5 states, most were junk unless you were the FTF or a close second. I'll give every cache hider the benifiet of the doubt that they placed caches as I have placed a dozen, full of nice swag. Within weeks of placement you couldn't sell the entire contents at a flea market for a $.05!

I'm as agaisnt geo litter as the next person. I Still believe that no one has the right to remove anothers cache without permission. If you want to fall back on the geo litter is bad for the sport, then ban players. They are the ones that turned it to trash the majority of the time.

Before anyone that comes back and says that the owner should restock the cache when it gets full of golf balls and MC toys...Bull!! No owner is obligated to give the rest of the community a free tour through WalMart. If the caching community did what was right, there would be no need.

Of course everyone here trades up and replenishes their caches as need. Right! Unless I was the FTF 85% of the caches were filled with junk if they had anything left in them in the first place. We should remove those. They give the sport a bad name.

I also want to remind all the people that want to remove the caches in question that the OP stated there was nothing wrong with them.

El Diablo

1.7k · July 24, 2005

If you want to fall back on the geo litter is bad for the sport, then ban players.

When you ban the player, do you also politely ask them to remove their caches from the field ? Oh sure , I'll hop right on that one.

I would also remind folks that the OP stated that this was the second time that this hider had done the same thing. It is an issue that is deserving of some guideline, but that is just a suggestion and opinion.

Edited July 24, 2005 by Packanack

3.9k · July 24, 2005

If you want to fall back on the geo litter is bad for the sport, then ban players.

When you ban the player, do you also politely ask them to remove their caches from the field ? Oh sure , I'll hop right on that one.

I would also remind folks that the OP stated that this was the second time that this hider had done the same thing. It is an issue that is deserving of some guideline, but that is just a suggestion and opinion.

I don't suggest that you ask them to remove anything. If the cache was lawfully placed then it's good. Even according to this site it's good. They did after all approve the listing of them.

It also dosen't matter how many times the cache owner has done this. It's also my understanding from the OP that the caches were disabled not archived.

You can debate me on this topic forever, but I'll always defend the right of the cache placer and condeem the the cachers that trashed it.

I have noticed that people tend to quote parts of my statements without addressing the other points that I brought up. Specifically the fact that it's the community in large that trash the caches in the first place.

El Diablo

38.2k · July 24, 2005

It might not be everything, but some are not keen on the idea of leaving geo-litter in the woods. It simply isn't good for our sport.

Ammo cans last many years in the wood and even tupperware can survive in the wild. If ammo cans and tupperware are such environmental hazards why do we use them? Not visiting a cache for long streches of time doesn't make them hazardous to the environment.

I don't recall saying they were bad for the environment.

38.2k · July 24, 2005

I'm as agaisnt geo litter as the next person. I Still believe that no one has the right to remove anothers cache without permission. If you want to fall back on the geo litter is bad for the sport, then ban players. They are the ones that turned it to trash the majority of the time.

I think you're confusing an active cache with lousy contents for geo litter. They don't become geo litter until they are abandoned by the owner and de-listed. This is the issue that the OP brought up. The caches in question have been archived and the owner has disappeared.

Is an ammo box left hidden among the rocks in the woods an environmental disaster? Of course not. But to the people who manage these lands and make the decisions about whether or not to allow our sport, it is an issue. If we want to have continued access to these places, we're gonna have to clean up after ourselves.

Edited July 24, 2005 by briansnat

2.7k · July 24, 2005

A simple modification to hiding guidelines can cover the situation, in the event of abandonment of a cache, the local approver will ask the community to remove the cache and the cache will be archived. Abandonment will be considered complete in the event of death of hider, statement of abandonment by hider, failure to respond to a request for repair going more than 60 days, or no participation in activity for 6 months by the owner following notice regarding cache. It somehow doesn't seem all that difficult to address fairly. There are not that many caches that fall into this category and it seems like the situation comes up infrequently.

I hate to return from a deployment only to find that someone has cleaned up my "abandoned" caches.

Why did you choose 60 days and 6 months? These seem like arbitrary numbers? Why not 5 days and 2 weeks or 90 days and 1 year?

YAY!! More rules and regulations, make it hurt drill sargeant make it hurt.

We don't need anymore guidelines.

X

X - By editing out some of my comments you broke the quoting mechanism and made Packanacks comment look like I made them. I fixed the quoting and added back in my comments.

Good, you get my point. Arbitrary rules simply don't work. A reasonable amout of time is situational. Combine that with the fact that just because a cache owner isn't active does not automatically make their caches geotrash and a rule like that is not necessary. What has been shown to work is community. The taking care of each cache that you visit as your own, not the forced removal of caches.

2.7k · July 24, 2005

It might not be everything, but some are not keen on the idea of leaving geo-litter in the woods. It simply isn't good for our sport.

Ammo cans last many years in the wood and even tupperware can survive in the wild. If ammo cans and tupperware are such environmental hazards why do we use them? Not visiting a cache for long streches of time doesn't make them hazardous to the environment.

I don't recall saying they were bad for the environment.

Thought you were with the, if the owner isn't around it is geolitter group.

I agree, if the owner archives the cache then remove it. If the owner doesn't then either take care if it yourself or SBA it. I don't agree that we should automatically archive all caches owned by someone who doesn't log in after X number of days.

38.2k · July 24, 2005

Thought you were with the, if the owner isn't around it is geolitter group.

I am. But I never said geolitter is bad for the environment. It's bad for our image, and bad for the sport though.

July 24, 2005

I don't know about you, maybe it's only in my neck of the woods....no that can't be right because I've found caches in at least 5 states, most were junk unless you were the FTF or a close second. I'll give every cache hider the benifiet of the doubt that they placed caches as I have placed a dozen, full of nice swag. Within weeks of placement you couldn't sell the entire contents at a flea market for a $.05!

The topic under discussion has been abandoned caches, not the quantity or quality of trade items ... unless, of course, you are asserting that is the reason people abandon their caches.

It is indeed a harsh statement. In my not so humble opinion, it's one that needed stating.

I've read in these forums that a large percentage of geocachers don't trade at all. I've also read the a small percentage of geocachers don't take anything from caches, but routinely leave nice, often home-made, trinkets. Personally, I only trade travel bugs or nothing at all. But it sure was nice of you to condemn the entire community with a gross generalization.

I'm as agaisnt geo litter as the next person. I Still believe that no one has the right to remove anothers cache without permission.

I presume you comprehend the meaning of the word abandon. Just in case there is anyone reading this thread who doesn't, here is the Merriam-Webster online dictionary's definition:

1 a : to give up to the control or influence of another person or agent

1 b : to give up with the intent of never again claiming a right or interest in

2 : to withdraw from often in the face of danger or encroachment <abandon ship>

3 : to withdraw protection, support, or help from

4 : to give (oneself) over unrestrainedly

5 a : to cease from maintaining, practicing, or using <abandoned their native language>

5 b : to cease intending or attempting to perform <abandoned the escape>

I must conclude that one does not need to seek permission to remove something that has been abandoned. I will conclude my participation in this thread by repeating something I stated earlier in the thread:

But if El Diablo is serious, then we should thank him, and all those of a similar mindset, for forcing government agencies, landowners, etc. into taking a long, hard look at this activity. It's unfortunate that those agencies so often conclude that the potential negatives of the activity outweigh the positives, but hey, that's life. The inability, or refusal, of the geocaching community to assume responsibility for itself only makes those bureaucratic decisions easy "no-brainers."

Edited July 24, 2005 by Yankees Win!

July 24, 2005

Dear Property Owner or Public Land Owner:

I am a geocacher and I would like to place a geocache on your land. It is a fun game and good geocachers will visit the cache but will be careful not to disturb the surrounding area or leave trash. Of couse, I will eventually lose interest in this sport and, when I do, the cache will be left where it is. You see, no one is responsible for its removal after I quit. But I'm sure you won't mind. Oh, there is the possibility the McToys will be strewn around a small area as the cache degrades due to lack of maintenance and some muggle finds it and trashes it. But, hey, it's no one's responsibility now. You, Mr. Owner, won't mind, will you? And, it could continue to exist indefinitely, long after it is forgotten---just another piece of rubbish on your wonderful property. That would be OK, wouldn't it?

So give me permission to abuse your trust when my interests turn elsewhere...and thanks.

Geocacher

2.1k · July 24, 2005

This will probably be my last response in this topic, because (intentionally or not, I can't determine) a few posters have obfuscated definitions and hijacked the discussion into a "should we remove caches full of junk or that are broken". This isn't what this topic is discussing. We started with something very clear:

Cache listings here that have been abandoned by all reasonable means of determination should/shouldn't be physically removed as well.

I restate (because it has been ignored by those arguing the opposite point) that once a cache has been truly abandoned by its owner, then it is no different than the bags and bags of CITO effort that we drag out every day. People aren't allowed to leave their frisbees behind the nearest tree so it'll be there for the ultimate frisbee players whenever they want to come use it in the park. We are often given special exception for our hobby because we promise maintenance and the hider's attention to their caches. Remove the hider from the situation and archive the listing and the cache is no longer fulfilling its promises. These caches must be considered no better than any other litter.

July 30, 2005

I received an email from a local cacher and friend that says that Max Cacher is through playing Mobucks games, he said that Mobuck seems to do this every now and then and expect to be able to enable them again, this time Max Cacher says they are archived and asks for help of removing the Geo-litter.

July 30, 2005

In this example, we have a good idea of what the owner is doing.

in other cases, it's not so clear.

There is a cache close to my university that is hidden in a very cool spot. there was a period when some no-finds, and finally a SBA was posted that it might have been archived. I checked on it, and finally adopted it after several tries to contact the owner. About a year and a half later i get a VERY rude email from him saying how upset he was that I stole his cache.

Turns out he takes very good care of it, just didn't have a computer anymore so he didn't know what had happened. So I changed the page back to how he had it, and put his name on it. The cache is still on my account so I get all the emails, and I send them off or let him know if anything comes up.

11.3k · July 30, 2005

Uh . . . forgive me, but couldn't that person log in occasionally on a computer at a public library?

If my computer broke, even though it is a long drive to the nearest library, I would make an effort to get to one once in a while when I had to go to town to get gas or groceries . . .

Has Anyone Heard Anything About

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