Has Anyone Heard Anything About

[+treasure_hunter]

A month or two ago, me and my father where down in TN doing some caching and we found a few caches by mobuck. It seems that he has disabled all his caches and now they are archived. He leaves the same log at every cache. "until we meet again..." I dont know what happened to him, but his caches are still in place and nothing wrong with them. We found a Virtual and emailed him the answers and never heard anything from him so we emailed him again and still heard nothing and then we was looking at his profile and found that he disabled all the caches. This is strange. His profile said that the last time he logged in was June 3, 2005, thats when he disabled all the caches. If anyone has heard anything please tell.

[+LaPaglia]

A month or two ago, me and my father where down in TN doing some caching and we found a few caches by mobuck. It seems that he has disabled all his caches and now they are archived. He leaves the same log at every cache. "until we meet again..." I dont know what happened to him, but his caches are still in place and nothing wrong with them. We found a Virtual and emailed him the answers and never heard anything from him so we emailed him again and still heard nothing and then we was looking at his profile and found that he disabled all the caches. This is strange. His profile said that the last time he logged in was June 3, 2005, thats when he disabled all the caches. If anyone has heard anything please tell.

Leave the poor guy alone. If he wanted you to know he would have told you.

[+hotshoe]

Yeah, but the problem is the archived caches are still there physically. Now they are geolitter. Where are the local cachers who can search and retrieve them ? IF you feel like being good guys, after you pick up the abandoned (archived) caches you can try contacting the owner to find out if he wants them delivered...

[PercyKittenz]

Maybe you can work out a way with the admins to take over ownership of the caches. If there are too many, maybe you can distribute them to other people willing to care for them.

[+LaPaglia]

Yeah, but the problem is the archived caches are still there physically. Now they are geolitter. Where are the local cachers who can search and retrieve them ? IF you feel like being good guys, after you pick up the abandoned (archived) caches you can try contacting the owner to find out if he wants them delivered...

How do we know they are not listed on another site. Or on this guys private website. Them may not be geolitter.

[Yankees Win!]

Yeah, but the problem is the archived caches are still there physically.  Now they are geolitter.  Where are the local cachers who can search and retrieve them ?  IF you feel like being good guys, after you pick up the abandoned  (archived) caches you can try contacting the owner to find out if he wants them delivered...

How do we know they are not listed on another site. Or on this guys private website. Them may not be geolitter.

And even if they are geolitter, "they just played the game their way," (according to some folk 'round these parts.)

 

Some people archive their caches and even leave notes on the pages stating that they removed them ... but they hadn't. I've seen this first-hand. So, I suggest:

 

1. Go and visit a couple of the cache sites and see if the caches are, in fact, still in place.

2. Ask other geocachers from the area who were well-acquainted with him.

3. Visit other geocaching websites and check for yourself if the caches are listed there.

4. E-mail him and ask his intentions for the caches.

5. Bring it to the attention of your local geocaching organization, or take matters into your own hands.

 

At one of the archived caches I visited, I "took matters into my own hands." I left a travel bug in the cache.

 

I'd better go get that. Should I remove the cache, as well?

Edited July 22, 2005 by Yankees Win!

[+tabulator32]

Don't go moving someone's cache without their permission.

 

As previously mentioned...

 

It may be a cache listed on another site. (Who knows why anyone would use a site other than GC.com but some do.)

 

If you don't hear back from the owner, maybe the GC approvers can get a hold of him. Barring that, they should just be left alone.

 

[ju66l3r]

How do we know they are not listed on another site. Or on this guys private website. Them may not be geolitter.

And yet, they may.

 

So, a while back when this first came up, it seemed like the reviewers had a reasonable set of conditions that told them to the best of their abilities if a cache were "geolitter". It included letting it go for a while (maybe he hadn't been out to retrieve it yet), then contacting the hider (to see if they were active on another site), and finally the reviewer would list the cache in an "adoption/retrieval" thread in the regional forum and the person who went out to the cache would look for things like recent non-GC logs, new paperwork from another site's listing of the same cache, and so on. If it looks like since it was archived it had just been left there, the person would bring it home so our community doesn't start leaving crap in the woods and ending up no better than those we complain about while we CITO.

 

The worst case scenario is that this person's cache disappears on them without any understanding of why and that happens every day to good caches that get muggled (intentionally or not).

 

EDIT: So, the first thing to do is notify the local reviewer that this may be geolitter and let them take it from there. I do not actually like the above process, but I do see the necessity in it to assure land managers that we, as a community, are not just going to abandon game pieces on their land.

Edited July 22, 2005 by ju66l3r

[+welch]

Yeah, but the problem is the archived caches are still there physically.  Now they are geolitter.  Where are the local cachers who can search and retrieve them ?  IF you feel like being good guys, after you pick up the abandoned  (archived) caches you can try contacting the owner to find out if he wants them delivered...

How do we know they are not listed on another site. Or on this guys private website. Them may not be geolitter.

Being misunderstood is just one of things that you risk happening when you don't bother telling anyone what your doing.

[Yankees Win!]

Barring that, they should just be left alone ...

... to rot in place, or remain for posterity?

 

Isn't that one of the primary concerns landowners/controlling agencies have regarding geocaching?

 

So, the first thing to do is notify the local reviewer that this may be geolitter and let them take it from there.

 

That doesn't seem to be a practical or effective solution. In my region, there are quite a few cache pages where reviewers left "reviewers notes" months ago, and it would appear that no further action was taken by anybody. Quite a few of those caches are in "temporarily disabled" limbo. Some of the cache owners haven't signed into the site since, others continue to hide and seek caches.

Edited July 22, 2005 by Yankees Win!

[+reveritt]

Jeez...what a bunch of busy bodies! Why not just mind your own business?

[Yankees Win!]

Jeez...what a bunch of busy bodies! Why not just mind your own business?

Talk like that could make any caches you own to end up in the dumpster behind the nearest WalMart ... where they would promptly be logged by everyone looking for microcaches.

[+Packanack]

A very similar situation just occurred in the North East Region, the Cacher literally had hundreds of hides and the Keystone Administrator among others seemingly approached it very systematically, got the community on board and adopted out a large number, others were picked up and it was done, far more quickly than could be imagined. Suggest you might want to run it by Keystone Administrator, or someone like BrianSnat, as they seem to have the best handle on a lot of these things. They should not be left in place with an archived status, for the guidelines require a maintenance element. In some instances a log entry was put on the page asking for adoption or pick up, it worked very efficiently imo.

 

The primary concern, as pointed out by Yankees Win , is from a land manager who doesn't want to have to deal with geocaches left behind, a minor yet irritating problem. I see Delaware Parks instituted a policy, which requires at least 1 x per year visit.

Edited July 22, 2005 by Packanack

[ju66l3r]

Jeez...what a bunch of busy bodies! Why not just mind your own business?

As a community involved in the collective seeking of personal hides, it _is_ our business.

[+TeamRJJO]

Jeez...what a bunch of busy bodies!  Why not just mind your own business?

This thread doesn't strike me that way at all. Someone raised a good question if we know of an archived cache which is physically still out there, what are we supposed to do about it?

 

As an example, there's a lake near us which is currently saturated with caches (as a result of the 528' rule). However, the owner of one of these caches is getting ready to move, if he hasn't already. Given that this lake is "prime caching real estate," if no one adopts the cache, what happens? Is someone supposed to go get it and remove it? Who does this?

 

Peace,

TeamRJJO

Edited July 22, 2005 by TeamRJJO

[+fly46]

We could solve the 'what ifs' by having a popup window when we go to archive a cache that after you click archive asks if the cache is going to be listed on another caching site.

[+welch]

As an example, there's a lake near us which is currently saturated with caches (as a result of the 528' rule). However, the owner of one of these caches is getting ready to move, if he hasn't already. Given that this lake is "prime caching real estate," if no one adopts the cache, what happens? Is someone supposed to go get it and remove it? Who does this?

 

Typically thats the OWNERS JOB. The debate is when they either drop off the map, or archive them without details, do we/should we go check? And if we find something then what?

[+TotemLake]

And even if they are geolitter, "they just played the game their way," (according to some folk 'round these parts.)

I don't think I ever saw anyone make a statement that creating geolitter is playing the game their way.

 

The whine in the other thread was about putting rules on how an online log will be considered legit.

 

Don't insert definitions where it doesn't belong, particularly when it comes to irresponsible ownership (assuming the cache isn't listed elsewhere.)

[+TeamRJJO]

Typically thats the OWNERS JOB. The debate is when they either drop off the map, or archive them without details, do we/should we go check? And if we find something then what?

Well....that appears to be the case here. I just checked, and the guy has moved nearly 2000 miles away. He has not turned any of his caches over for adoption, but neither has he responded to notes left on at least one of them, speculating that the cache has gone missing.

 

So what is the right thing to do here, assuming that this still isn't found for another few months? Or about the rest of his local caches for that matter? (Yes, I do understand that e-mailing the guy is an appropriate thing to do, but in the case above, he's not exactly in a position to go check on the status of his cache anymore).

 

Peace,

TeamRJJO

[+sbell111]

Has anyone sent an email to Max Cacher? If anyone has a clue what's going on with these caches (other than the owner), its him. Further, if anything needs to be done about them, he's in a better position to organize the effort than we are.

[Yankees Win!]

And even if they are geolitter, "they just played the game their way," (according to some folk 'round these parts.)

I don't think I ever saw anyone make a statement that creating geolitter is playing the game their way.

That line, or a close equivalent, appears in practically every thread where anyone disagrees with how someone else does something. But get mad; I think that's great ... perhaps if enough people "got mad as hell and weren't going to take it any more," we would see fewer of these problems.

[+sbell111]

... and people would get shot over caches.

 

The fact is, I'm not interested in getting mad over anything related to this hobby. I play to have fun.

Edited July 22, 2005 by sbell111

[+sept1c_tank]

The fact is, I'm not interested in getting mad over anything related to this hobby. I play to have fun.

What a novel idea.

[ju66l3r]

And even if they are geolitter, "they just played the game their way," (according to some folk 'round these parts.)

I don't think I ever saw anyone make a statement that creating geolitter is playing the game their way.

That line, or a close equivalent, appears in practically every thread where anyone disagrees with how someone else does something.

Yes, but this is potentially a case of someone no longer playing the game at all. Therefore the "their way of playing the game" argument is no longer cogent (i.e. "this is their way of playing the game while not playing the game" makes no sense).

 

The only way to know if they have plans for their geocaches is to do a bit of forensic analysis (is it still being found outside of GC.com, is there anything with the cache to suggest it is associated with something other than GC.com, interviewing the hider for information, and so on). Again, the *worst* thing that could happen is that someone acting in what they thought to be the best interest of the community would take the cache home and make a note on the cache page of where the logbook is now located for the original hider to retrieve if desired. Active caches go missing/destroyed/etc every day for any number of reasons.

[ju66l3r]

The fact is, I'm not interested in getting mad over anything related to this hobby.  I play to have fun.

What a novel idea.

It'd never sell in the stores. There's no conflict for the main character...

 

OH...*that* kind of "novel".

[+Yamahammer]

Treasure Hunter, When you visited the archieved caches, were any of dem logged with dates since 6/5? If so, then they may be just what was clued earlier, listed on another site/webpage. ... I know I've logged finds on archived caches before. If they are still there and in good shape, log it that way and maybe other cachers will continue to visit the cache. It's not litter if it is being used is it?

 

[Yankees Win!]

... and people would get shot over caches. 

 

The fact is, I'm not interested in getting mad over anything related to this hobby.  I play to have fun.

What a terrific, thought provoking post! Do you think someone who couldn't be bothered to remove their abandoned geocache would take the initiative to track down and shoot somebody who did remove it? Yeah, very probably.

 

The fact is, I'm not interested in getting mad over anything related to this hobby.  I play to have fun.

 

You're right. None of these problems are your problems; none of these problems are my problems. So let's just pretend they don't exist and go about our merry ways. Someone else will take care of them for us. Right?

Edited July 22, 2005 by Yankees Win!

[+sept1c_tank]

NIMBY

[Yankees Win!]

Yes, but this is potentially a case of someone no longer playing the game at all. Therefore the "their way of playing the game" argument is no longer cogent

I disagree. Please note that while you used the present tense in your statement, I used the past tense in the excerpt you quoted. The decision to quit the game and abandon any caches is made while the individual is still considered a participant. Therefore, their final act as a participant was to knowingly abandon their caches. "They played the game their way" and created geolitter.

[+soreyes]

... and people would get shot over caches. 

Good Point - Other threads have made it abundantly clear that there are quite a few 'Packin' geocachers out there!

[Pipanella]

Yeah, but the problem is the archived caches are still there physically.  Now they are geolitter.  Where are the local cachers who can search and retrieve them ?  IF you feel like being good guys, after you pick up the abandoned  (archived) caches you can try contacting the owner to find out if he wants them delivered...

How do we know they are not listed on another site. Or on this guys private website. Them may not be geolitter.

Being misunderstood is just one of things that you risk happening when you don't bother telling anyone what your doing.

I agree.

[+TotemLake]

Yes, but this is potentially a case of someone no longer playing the game at all.  Therefore the "their way of playing the game" argument is no longer cogent

I disagree. Please note that while you used the present tense in your statement, I used the past tense in the excerpt you quoted. The decision to quit the game and abandon any caches is made while the individual is still considered a participant. Therefore, their final act as a participant was to knowingly abandon their caches. "They played the game their way" and created geolitter.

And yet again, you still miss the point. In any other thread over this game, it is about the guidelines and how somebody chooses to play a variation of the game that does not run afoul of the local and prevailing laws.

 

Again, assuming the cache was abandoned and not listed on another site, creating geolitter doesn't fit in the same generalization of an allowed variation of the game.

[+Packanack]

A simple modification to hiding guidelines can cover the situation, in the event of abandonment of a cache, the local approver will ask the community to remove the cache and the cache will be archived. Abandonment will be considered complete in the event of death of hider, statement of abandonment by hider, failure to respond to a request for repair going more than 60 days, or no participation in activity for 6 months by the owner following notice regarding cache. It somehow doesn't seem all that difficult to address fairly. There are not that many caches that fall into this category and it seems like the situation comes up infrequently.

[+Joypa]

A fact not to be missed he is that the ex-cacher was irresponsible in leaving his geo-litter in the woods. As suggested, an organized effort would clean this up in short order. Seems like that ought to be automatic once the situation is known.

[+sbell111]

The problem is figuring out when it is 'known'. Electing to archive the caches on gc.com does not necessarily mean that the cacher has abandoned the caches. In fact, if approval was made for placing the caches, they would not be litter, even if they were no longer posted anywhere. The owner would still be responsible to the land owner for their maintenance, of course.

Edited July 22, 2005 by sbell111

[+Joypa]

Well, in this case, it seems to be "known". Let's get 'em cleaned up.

[+sbell111]

...

The fact is, I'm not interested in getting mad over anything related to this hobby.  I play to have fun.

 

You're right. None of these problems are your problems; none of these problems are my problems. So let's just pretend they don't exist and go about our merry ways. Someone else will take care of them for us. Right?

meh.

 

Way to twist my post. My comment was in response to your suggestion that we should all get angry about the 'problem' and go do 'something' about it.

 

Your suggestion that I believe that the issue should be ignore is laughable. In fact, I had previously suggested that the area approver be brought into the loop. This is an issue that can be resolved quite well using established procedures. These procedures do not require me to take any other action unless the approver requests me to do so.

[+sbell111]

Well, in this case, it seems to be "known". Let's get 'em cleaned up.

Did I miss a post? How was it determined that they are, indeed, abandoned?

[+deimos444]

I think Darwin would be quite interested in the evolution of this thread.

[Max Cacher]

mobuck’s caches are being looked after, three have already be picked up by local cachers and a new cache page using his existing container with mobuck’s permission, and others are to follow

 

Everything is going quite efficiently from the locals from the tri-state area. This is the second and hopefully the last time he’s done this.

 

When containers are left in place like this, it is everyone’s business to pitch in and help out not to leave geo-trash for non-geocachers to find

 

Nothing is instant, they have been working on them for a few weeks now

 

patience grasshopper, patience

 

Max Cacher

Geocaching.com Volunteer Cache Reviewer // Moderator

[+El Diablo]

Well, in this case, it seems to be "known". Let's get 'em cleaned up.

Well playing Devils advocate here...notice the user name.

 

This site and all others are listing sites. They are not responsible for cache placements. They try to set guidelines to keep the sport in best light. It isn't their responsibility to police caches, nor is it the responsibility of the community to police caches. It is the responsibility of the cache owner to place a cache that is lawfully allowed.

 

No one here has any obligation, or more importantly the right to remove any cache that they deem to be geo litter, unless the owner has asked that that service be performed. Just because it was archived on this site, dosen't mean that it isn't active on another public site, or even a private site.

 

What if I decided that I know longer wanted to publicly list my caches and decided to just leave them there for family and friends to find? Do you now have the right to remove them? NO!!!

 

El Diablo

[+Team Cotati]

Yeah, I heard that he bought a truck.

[+Joypa]

Well....that appears to be the case here. I just checked, and the guy has moved nearly 2000 miles away. He has not turned any of his caches over for adoption, but neither has he responded to notes left on at least one of them, speculating that the cache has gone missing.

 

So what is the right thing to do here, assuming that this still isn't found for another few months? Or about the rest of his local caches for that matter? (Yes, I do understand that e-mailing the guy is an appropriate thing to do, but in the case above, he's not exactly in a position to go check on the status of his cache anymore).

 

Peace,

TeamRJJO

Seems like a pretty open and shut case. And taking care of these caches can mean adopting them. If a cachers moves 2000 miles and makes no arrangement for the disposal of caches you're dadgum right they should be addressed by the local powers that be. This ex-cachers situation is known. Step up to the plate.

[+El Diablo]

Well....that appears to be the case here.  I just checked, and the guy has moved nearly 2000 miles away.  He has not turned any of his caches over for adoption, but neither has he responded to notes left on at least one of them, speculating that the cache has gone missing.

 

So what is the right thing to do here, assuming that this still isn't found for another few months?  Or about the rest of his local caches for that matter?  (Yes, I do understand that e-mailing the guy is an appropriate thing to do, but in the case above, he's not exactly in a position to go check on the status of his cache anymore).

 

Peace,

TeamRJJO

Seems like a pretty open and shut case. And taking care of these caches can mean adopting them. If a cachers moves 2000 miles and makes no arrangement for the disposal of caches you're dadgum right they should be addressed by the local powers that be. This ex-cachers situation is known. Step up to the plate.

You don't know what arrangements that he's made. Maybe he has family still in the area. Don't jump to conclusions until you have all the facts.

 

El Diablo

[Trinity's Crew]

If the cacher is unresponsive, you will NEVER get all the facts. How much time needs to pass before the geocaching community decides to "clean up" the mess that he left behind?

This isn't meant to be antagonistic. I really want to know what you deem a reasonable waiting period.

[+El Diablo]

If the cacher is unresponsive, you will NEVER get all the facts. How much time needs to pass before the geocaching community decides to "clean up" the mess that he left behind?

This isn't meant to be antagonistic. I really want to know what you deem a reasonable waiting period.

There is no waiting period. The cacher has no responsibility to report to you or anyone else. Nor does he need to give facts to anyone. His/ her resonsibility is to make sure that the cache was legally placed. If it wasn't..then they are held responsible by the authorities.

 

It is not up to this community to decide wether or not it has been abandoned and needs to be removed. The next thing we'll be deciding is wether or not to remove what is deemed lame caches.

 

El Diablo

Edited July 23, 2005 by El Diablo

[Trinity's Crew]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one El Diablo. I don't think it's a good idea to leave disabled caches laying all over the place on the off chance that they might be listed somewhere else.

 

As Welch said in a previous post, "Being misunderstood is just one of things that you risk happening when you don't bother telling anyone what your doing."

 

If you can't muster the courtesy of a response to inquiries about disabled caches, you run the risk of having others assume that you simply don't care about them anymore.

[+Right Wing Wacko]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one El Diablo. I don't think it's a good idea to leave disabled caches laying all over the place on the off chance that they might be listed somewhere else.

 

As Welch said in a previous post, "Being misunderstood is just one of things that you risk happening when you don't bother telling anyone what your doing."

 

If you can't muster the courtesy of a response to inquiries about disabled caches, you run the risk of having others assume that you simply don't care about them anymore.

I have a hard time beleiving anyone is actually arguing that we should leave geolitter in the woods and in our parks.

 

Then again, I can almost see their point. GC.COM is a listing service, the cache owner still owns their cache.

 

Perhaps there needs to be something in the TOS or the listing agreement that allows GC.COM to remove or adopt out abandoned caches after a reasonable period of time.

[+Glenn]

A simple modification to hiding guidelines can cover the situation, in the event of abandonment of a cache, the local approver will ask the community to remove the cache and the cache will be archived. Abandonment will be considered complete in the event of death of hider, statement of abandonment  by hider, failure to respond to a request for repair  going more than 60 days, or no participation in activity for 6 months by the owner following notice regarding cache.  It somehow doesn't seem all that difficult to address fairly.  There are not that many caches that fall into this category and it seems like the situation comes up infrequently.

I hate to return from a deployment only to find that someone has cleaned up my "abandoned" caches.

[Yankees Win!]

I hate to return from a deployment only to find that someone has cleaned up my "abandoned" caches.

What would preclude someone in that situation from arranging for another area geocacher to assume responsibility for the caches in their absence? Would posting that information on the cache page be problematic?