Benchmark With No Identifying Marks

July 18, 2005

Sorry if this is a FAQ...

There's a benchmark in front of my house that says "U.S. Coast & Geodetic Survey Bench Mark" but it has no numbers, PIDs or other identifying marks. I couldn't find an entry for it in the NGS database.

Here's a photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/eswierk/26688943/

Is this in fact a benchmark, and if so, how would I go about reporting it?

--Ed

2.7k · July 18, 2005

We need the coordinates to answer that.

There are many U.S. Coast and Geodetic Survey marks that are not in the database we use. Some are, but perhaps the majority are not. They are not even on a database at all, but instead live in file cabinets on papers. Your mark is possibly one of these.

July 18, 2005

The benchmark is at 37:23:25 N, 122:04:29 W.

1.6k · July 18, 2005

The fact that it says "US Coast and Geodetic Survey" as opposed to "US CGS and State Survey" or other agency names considerably improves the odds of it being in the data base. The CGS was the predecessor to the National Geodetic Survey whose data base we use here.

However, not having any stamping diminishes the odds, because most of theirs are stamped with some identifying information, so this is already a slightly odd one.

As BDT says, a search around the coordinates is the next step. Anything within a mile or so should be reviewed to see if the description of the disk and its location matches what you see. For this purpose note whether a candidate benchmark has SCALED coordinates or ADJUSTED coordinates. If the scaled (read off a map) some of them are considerably off but the description will usually give distances from other objects that can be checked. If adjusted, your handheld GPS should agree within its accuracy when over the disk.

1.5k · July 18, 2005

Does this mark fit? I have come across at least 3 makrs in my 30 yrs in using these that were not stamped. All you can do is assume it was an oversight.

DATABASE = Sybase ,PROGRAM = datasheet, VERSION = 7.20

1 National Geodetic Survey, Retrieval Date = JULY 18, 2005

HT1627 ***********************************************************************

HT1627 DESIGNATION - X 180

HT1627 PID - HT1627

HT1627 STATE/COUNTY- CA/SANTA CLARA

HT1627 USGS QUAD - MOUNTAIN VIEW (1997)

HT1627

HT1627 *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL

HT1627 ___________________________________________________________________

HT1627* NAD 83(1986)- 37 23 16. (N) 122 04 59. (W) SCALED

HT1627* NAVD 88 - 30.37 (+/-2cm) 99.6 (feet) VERTCON

HT1627 ___________________________________________________________________

HT1627 GEOID HEIGHT- -32.58 (meters) GEOID03

HT1627

HT1627 VERT ORDER - FIRST CLASS II (See Below)

HT1627

HT1627.The horizontal coordinates were scaled from a topographic map and have

HT1627.an estimated accuracy of +/- 6 seconds.

HT1627

HT1627.The NAVD 88 height was computed by applying the VERTCON shift value to

HT1627.the NGVD 29 height (displayed under SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL.)

HT1627.The vertical order pertains to the NGVD 29 superseded value.

HT1627

HT1627.The geoid height was determined by GEOID03.

HT1627

HT1627; North East Units Estimated Accuracy

HT1627;SPC CA 3 - 599,710. 1,859,820. MT (+/- 180 meters Scaled)

HT1627

HT1627 SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL

HT1627

HT1627 NGVD 29 (??/??/92) 29.535 (m) 96.90 (f) ADJ UNCH 1 2

HT1627

HT1627.Superseded values are not recommended for survey control.

HT1627.NGS no longer adjusts projects to the NAD 27 or NGVD 29 datums.

HT1627.See file dsdata.txt to determine how the superseded data were derived.

HT1627

HT1627_U.S. NATIONAL GRID SPATIAL ADDRESS: 10SEG811382(NAD 83)

HT1627_MARKER: DB = BENCH MARK DISK

HT1627_SETTING: 36 = SET IN A MASSIVE STRUCTURE

HT1627_SP_SET: CONCRETE FOUNDATION

HT1627_STAMPING: X 180 1934

HT1627_STABILITY: B = PROBABLY HOLD POSITION/ELEVATION WELL

HT1627

HT1627 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

HT1627 HISTORY - 1934 MONUMENTED CGS

HT1627 HISTORY - 1967 GOOD NGS

HT1627

HT1627 STATION DESCRIPTION

HT1627

HT1627'DESCRIBED BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1967

HT1627'AT MOUNTAIN VIEW.

HT1627'AT MOUNTAIN VIEW, ON CASTRO STREET BETWEEN HIGH SCHOOL WAY AND

HT1627'CHURCH STREET, AT THE UNION HIGH SCHOOL FLAGPOLE, IN THE TOP OF

HT1627'THE CONCRETE FOUNDATION OF THE WOODEN FLAGPOLE, 77.1 FEET

HT1627'NORTHWEST OF THE NORTHWEST CURB OF CASTRO STREET, 0.5 FOOT

HT1627'SOUTHEAST OF THE SOUTHEAST SIDE OF THE FLAGPOLE, AND ABOUT 1

HT1627'FOOT HIGHER THAN THE STREET.

1 National Geodetic Survey, Retrieval Date = JULY 18, 2005

1.3k · July 18, 2005

Does this mark fit?

Possibly, but possibly not.

Note the line in the datasheet --

HT1627_STAMPING: X 180 1934

It's possibly this entry is in error, but in my experience it's rare that an unstamped disk would have an erroneous STAMPING: line on the datasheet.

Also, and this is good general advice: don't just rely on your GPS. When they wrote that description in 1967, there was no GPS, and the text description was how users found this disk. Did you find the disk atop the concrete foundation of the high school flagpole? Assuming there still is a high school flagpole, of course. If there's no flagpole, is your disk in what might once have been a high school flagpole? Do the distances given check out? Bear in mind that streets get widened, or even renamed. There is a certain amount of detective work involved in some of these recoveries, which is why some of us think it's a cool pasttime.

-ArtMan-

July 18, 2005

No, it's not HT1627, although that benchmark is missing. The high school flagpole, originally about 1/2 mi from my house, was moved to a nearby park when the school was torn down in the late 1980s. I went looking for that benchmark yesterday, but it looks like the flagpole was set into a new foundation.

I went looking for HT1628 as well, but didn't try too hard, as that one is along an active railway that is closely patrolled for trespassers. It's even farther from my house than HT1627.

The benchmark in front of my house is set into a concrete sidewalk right next to the curb. The house was built in 1920 by one of the early settlers to the neighborhood. I doubt there were concrete sidewalks and curbs on this street in 1920, but they were probably installed by the 1950s. There is little reason to believe that the benchmark has been moved within the past 50 years, since the house is in its original condition and the street has not been widened.

1.5k · July 18, 2005

Well then it must be a disk someone placed there for whatever reason. Every now and again these unknown marks show up. Weather it was intended to be leveled to or someone had one in thier possession and wanted to plant it here, is hard to say.

That style of disk predates the 1930's. It looks to have been placed when the concrete was poured as opposed to grouting into existing concrete. Compare it to the photo below of a 1934 set mark, you can see the style is much earlier than the 1930's.

I don't know what else so say, you could contact NGS, maybe they know something but I would not count on it?

Edited July 18, 2005 by Z15

July 18, 2005

You might look into the previous owners of the house. Perhaps one of them was a surveyor or such, and had the disc in their possesion and decided they wanted it there..

Now just *why* would someone want a benchmark next to their house, I have *NO* idea... :lol:

It's not like I dont have a USGS Pipe Cap mark (i found destroyed) sitting in the flower bed in front of my house. :rolleyes:

Edited July 18, 2005 by Crystal Sound

July 18, 2005

Bill,

Of note, You said: "The CGS was the predecessor to the National Geodetic Survey whose data base we use here."

Actually they were not a predecessor agency. It is still the same agency, only the name was changed. They are the oldest continuously operating scientifically related agency in the US Government.

Also of note, when you start referring to scaled and adjusted coordinates, though I discussed it while back, It is important to note for those who may be new and uninformed, (and there is always someone who is) That you are referring to horizontal coordinates ONLY and not to Vertical. If a Station is Horizontal Control, it will always have Adjusted Horizontal coordinates, otherwise it is not of high enough quality to be in the active database, period. Many Horizontal stations will have "Scaled" Vertical data, many others will have Adjusted Vertical Data.

It can be confusing to just say adjusted, because in reality the adjusted means something altogether different than the context it is used in around here. It is as misleading as calling all survey markers "Benchmarks" because that is a full on error and misnomer at the very best, to say the least. So please remember for the benefit of those who may not be as up on the drill as others that it is just safer to refer to these as either first horizontal or Vertical control, then go on to talk about the types and quality of the data after that.

Just a Few thoughts from the Survey Field, Hope that helps.

Rob

4.1k · July 18, 2005

It is as misleading as calling all survey markers "Benchmarks" because that is a full on error and misnomer at the very best, to say the least. So please remember for the benefit of those who may not be as up on the drill as others that it is just safer to refer to these as either first horizontal or Vertical control, then go on to talk about the types and quality of the data after that.

I guess that means we need to have Jeremy change the name of this forum from "Benchmark Hunting" to "Survey Marker Hunting"! :rolleyes: And what about those pesky Old Holes (a hole is just an empty spot in the ground)?

John

1.3k · July 19, 2005

Here at Geocaching.com, I refer to control in general — horizontal and vertical, monument or intersection station or unmarked point — with the term "benchmark." Note one word.

When I use "bench mark" as two words, I'm referring specifically to vertical control — e.g., "elevation at this bench mark disk is 329.513 meters."

I'm not terribly happy with the generic use of "benchmark" here, but it seems we're stuck with it.

-ArtMan-

4.1k · July 19, 2005

Well I guess that 's why we have the "benchmark forum" and the "NGS forum" :lol: :rolleyes:

John

July 19, 2005

I like your use of "benchmark" and "bench mark" ArtMan.

July 20, 2005

Yeah John, I guess that's right, even though you could not wrap your mind around the vision at the time.

Oh and Yeah, Good Project for you John, if you feel up to tackling it. Lobby Jeremy for that, wouldn't you? Let me know how it turns out sometime!

Rob

4.1k · July 20, 2005

I think maybe we should get Jeremy to name the forum ----------

Geodetic Interactive Spatial Referencing Devices, search, recovery, and documentation.

John

July 22, 2005

Heck John,

You could Lobby for Hemi Ram too! I should think any "all about me" or otherwise self congratulatory title would be great!

:unsure: :rolleyes: Rob :lol:

:lol:

4.1k · July 22, 2005

Heck John,

You could Lobby for Hemi Ram too! I should think any "all about me" or otherwise self congratulatory title would be great!

Rob

I found an extra sense of humor if you need one! :lol:

4.4k · July 22, 2005

My only question.

Why are the stamped BENCHMARK?

If they are not.

4.1k · July 22, 2005

Geo, You're Right! :unsure:

Any more questions? We've got all kinds of answers! :rolleyes: :unsure: :lol: :lol: :lol:

John

July 23, 2005

Yup,

They seem to ONLY be stamped Bench Mark when used for vertical control.

It is the time honored NGS convention.

Mysterious isn't it... Only the horizontally scaled ones....

Of course you could call it a geospacemanwhatchamawhooley if you ask John,

He'd back you on that. He likes untraditional things because they don't conform to any of those silly time honored traditions. Besides, he's a rebel, He'll sign off on anything!

<_<

Edited July 23, 2005 by evenfall

July 23, 2005

Wow,

we can almost form entire sentences with emoticons...

<_<

July 23, 2005

I've always understood that "benchmarks" referred to elevations and "stations" meant horizontal control. Unfortunately, I've used the two terms interchangeably.

That being said, I do not claim to be an expert at surveying and doubt that I ever will. I did grow up in the midwest helping my father set many USGS benchmarks and at least one triangulation station.

One of these days I'm going to go back to some of those stations and log them. Wonder if I can claim a FTF from 1972?? <_<

4.1k · July 23, 2005

Rob,

Here are a couple of replies from a professional friend (a dictionary!) of mine about what a "benchmark"/"bench mark" really is in the real world.

1) a surveyor's mark on a permanent object of predetermined position and elevation used as a reference point

2) Bench mark\ (Leveling) Any permanent mark to which other levels may be referred. Specif. :A horizontal mark at the water's edge with reference to which the height of tides and floods may be measured.

The Internet dictionary is the source for those 2 definitions. Emphasis mine.

So the correct usage of benchmark is to describe any surveyor mark! Like it or not, the English language allows for us common folk to say "benchmark" when refering to any "Geodetic Interactive Spatial Referencing Device"

So I guess the real question becomes - If you want such accuracy of terms used why not stick to complaining about word usage over at the NGS forum which was set up for those who desire accuracy & not to be bothered with the common guy's idea of having fun? <_<

You need to stop worring so much and go find some interesting BENCHMARKS!

John

July 23, 2005

Gee, I found this unique mark out in the wild, and I'm not sure what to call it, a benchmark, an emoticon, an emotimark, or a geodetic silliness control station?

2.7k · July 23, 2005

I took definition 2's "horizontal" to mean it's physical orientation; i.e. flat. Definition 1 does apply to both horizontal and vertical positioning.

I think we all realize that the survey profession uses the term benchmark for only the vertical control marks. For horizontal control marks they use several terms - survey mark, triangulation station, intersection station, etc. There doesn't seem to be an easy word to use to encompass (pun intended) all the kinds of horizontal control marks. There is the term 'horizontal control point' and some similar ones but they seem so much more tedious in writing for an informal media like this forum that it just seems easier to use an expanded meaning of the term 'benchmark'. This is not new to the English language - take the word 'man' for instance.

When doing a log on a benchmark (expanded version of the term), I always look at the type of mark and on the datasheet and use that terminolgy in my report.

I kind of like Artman's distinction ('bench mark' vs. 'benchmark'), but the spacing is a bit too subtle for me. Often I use 'mark' or 'station', but those seem rather vague, and really, I think that here in the forums we could use an expanded version of the term benchmark to mean both horizontal control marks and vertical control marks.

2.7k · July 23, 2005

holograph -

LOL

I wondered when I clicked the send button if someone else was typing while I was and sure enough!!

p.s. Get rid of the monk and substitute the smiley mark for your avatar! <_<

July 24, 2005

John,

Yeah I know, Another long Diatribe from Rob.

The point I have been making is that despite what your dictionary claims, the dictionary is not always the basis for what is the correct usage of terminology, with in any industry.

I am sure while I know nothing of Rocks and lapidary work, I could easily be in error when I refer to things. Maybe I can murder some lapidary vernacular for you sometime?

The truth is that there are specific idioms that are used in any industry, and if you talk about it with others within the industry, you learn the terminologies.

I work in the industry. Have for over 20 years. Many people here seem to want to be correct in the things they know, some do not.

Over the last few years there has been a number of Surveyor types who have chimed in here to help you all learn. Question after question we help answer, yet for the most part much of what is offered in answer is ignored or refuted in such a way that says to the Surveyor, "oh, well that's nice, but I don't care. That seems like too much bother. My way is easier I'll do it my way."

So John, Since NGS is the originator of all Vertical and Horizontal control going back (EMPHASIS 200 YEARS) and they are the authority, the establishment of any authority on the matter, Have a nice day. My authority can beat up your authority. Perhaps you understand if I say it like that, eh?

Ever wonder why so many stop bothering to help? There is a clue for ya.

Many of the Surveyors who quit in here, quit because no one really want's the real answers. And yes, we in the survey industry have discussed this amongst ourselves.

That is not how the real world works.

In the real world John, My Buddies and I would give to you the crap jobs and we would shun and scorn you till you quit. We would scowl at you over the rims of our sunglasses and leave you to eat your lunch all by your self. Eventually, if you were too slow to move on, I'd lay you off at the end of an arduous day. All that based on how you have acted in here! Get it? That's the real world in the trades Bro. I don't care how you like me now John, It hasn't mattered for months. :-) I just want you to know I don't have to resort to innuendo, as I am not afraid to say the things I think when it is appropriate to do so. Why not email you? Why? You are a Troll in here, so what good what that do?

Beyond that John, You have helped my pursuit of becoming a better communicator during fierce conversations, so I do get at least something from sparring with you. Thanks Buddy!

In an earlier discussion this year, some of you seemed to want to dismiss the NAD 83 Datum on account of... because. I guess because WGS 84 is easier! <snort!> heheheh! We in the industry chuckle at this notion because we know you cannot separate this. If you choose not to follow, then we can't make you, but we can't help you either. Sorry, but it is a pragmatic science folks.

Dave D is the Chief Geodetic Surveyor at NGS. His answer to any Geodetic question is considered an answer from on high in my industry. He answered that question as did I, as did a Geodesist that Casey brought to the scene and some of you refuted our answers for the way it is. Well, ok fine. The the earth is flat then, don't worry about it.

John, While it would be laughable to take exception with anything you say, as you would only choose to refute me in the face of any reason. Your dictionary isn't correct, not really. But I realize that you and others like you, do not wish to be correct. It is all about playing by your own rules at any cost. But you do enjoy thinking you are popular, what with all the self congratulation and overbearing back patting... Oh except for when you are unhappy with a situation where you then resort to making backhanded comments which you won't address directly when confronted with them. For you to say anything, is rendered pretty irrelevant, as for the most part, the only stance you take on any issue is the rebel or devil's advocate. Whatever would make things easiest for you. In either case, you hardly lift a finger, so, so what? :-) You have no point.... I have made a direct comment John, and I was not flippant, nor am I pasting up three little green emoticons to show how sophmorish my snide remarks are. I am just saying that your opinion has no value to me, and in silence, some others share my view. I even know who some of them are.

I already know I am unpopular with some here. I still sleep fine.

The real world you flippantly refer to has high standards, which you don't bother acknowledging. Those standards are what makes the system, as difficult as it can be, work. If you want to pat yourself on the back for finding something that a professional who came before you did not, and then mock him or them for their failure, while at the same time refusing to lift a finger to improve the situation says a lot about you. So Uh, Whatever Dude. Go treasure hunt.

It is equally silly, as a notion to think that as geocachers, others in this forum feel that any submitted data to NGS should be run through your gauntlet, first. As if someone appointed the Geocachers to make sure the public gets it right. Hell, that's good... Self appointed overseers of? Please. I think NGS has it in hand. Do them a favor and quit making silly policies amongst yourselves and either help them or don't. Especially when there seems to be little else many here can actually agree upon. Submit the data because you want to perform an act of community service that helps out. They are more than qualified to sort your entry out. They are experienced for 200 years at maintaining the control and did it well before there were geocachers.

And when you guys want an improvement from Jeremy, stop complaining and petition Jeremy for what you want. I know of no one who ever got a promotion by whining and muttering. Most who have ever worked as managers all have had employees that come to them with complaints and problems. The ones the promote also bring possible solutions. I had suggested several times how people could work this with Jeremy. He has even dropped hints and clues, and then watched. Nothing happened. Some treasure hunters... Well it is true that what you bargain for you have a chance to get, and the benchmarkers seem to be largely ignored. Sorry but until you help yourselves, you'll have to settle.

There are many things which could be done to improve the hobby, but I never see agreement. I have attempted to organize threads which could discuss this and they are there, go look, no one could agree on a thing. So the threads faded away. every one came in, My way or the highway and the rest said nothing because they saw the writing on the wall. Benchmarking as a forum sees little growth... Very few noobs contributing... But I see the forum is well read, when it isn't being mocked...

I am sorry if I am doing harm here but in part I feel it needs said. I am not afraid of Leadership Management or facing hard choices. I work that action as part of my daily do. If the Benchmark hunters don't feel that and form of convention should govern them, then they do not have a right to tell NGS that they can't solicit help from the public. In this culture you have created, ideas are squashed with great resistance before they are barely discussed. Then, To make a Mockery of the Power Squadron is poor too, because at least they are looking and reporting them, in an organized way, right or wrong.

Sorry Guys but there are no glass houses. Some of you know who who you are when I say thank you, you have contributed a lot. I am proud of what you did on your own. I thank you for listening and asking good questions. That's cool! As I said, They know who they are, and they know I know.

As for me and the Lighten up? I am fine Really, Just saying a few things needing said, before being too PC poisons everything else. So before wading in and berating me, take it constructively, and save your breath. I really don't need a critique. I would likely not give it much credence anyway.

Rob

1.3k · July 24, 2005

Rob is right that in almost any walk of life there are terms which have particular meaning beyond (or even counter to) their meaning in ordinary conversation.

I happen to work in radio. In broadcasting, anyone at the microphone or in front of the camera is "talent." Regardless of, well, talent.

In our hobby (and Rob's profession), a post is a chunk of concrete. In my business, a "post" is a certain point in time. (The automation cuts you out at 12:04:58. You better hit that post.)

Needless to say, there are innumerable other examples.

As to Benchmark, several online dictionaries (see the always-useful One Look Dictionary search) specify that "benchmark" refers to elevation. One even gives the origin: "A "benchmark" was originally a mark cut into a stone or a wall by surveyors measuring the altitude and/or level of a tract of land. The cut was used to secure a bracket called a "bench" upon which they mounted their measuring equipment, and all subsequent measurements were made in reference to the position and height of that mark."

4.1k · July 24, 2005

Rob,

You sure seem to have a problem understanding plain English!

What I said was If "Benchmark" is in the dictionary as being any survey mark then it is consider common usage of the word to include all marks under the heading of Benchmarks. Just because You do NOT like what the dictionary says does NOT make the dictionary WRONG.

I have NEVER said how ANYONE should or should not log with the NGS. I don't give a da** if anyone logs with the NGS or NOT or how they would choose to log.

What I did say was If YOU want it done perfectly then USE the NGS forum. That is why that forum was started. To improve having things done the NGS way. It might tell you something that it does not get the use you had hoped for!

This "Benchmark" forum is for those who are hunting benchmarks for a hobby. It does not require perfection to find and log a Benchmark on GC.com. If you have such a problem with that then Yes you need to lighten up.

John

4.4k · July 24, 2005

Well it seems like with a few words some get their feathers ruffled easy.

I can no longer make a joke or pun without going into an in depth chron0logy of things.

I have asked several pertinant questions that remain un-answered.

Accuracy to me is a "vital" function of the whole equation.

Over this 200 year period there have been major changes in Models of the Earth and the way we represent them on maps.

Adjustments have been made,Horizontal and Vertical to the plane.

There have been at least 3 Geographic Centers that I know of.

But with each new way to better precisely measure the Earth whether in a plane or on a GEOID model,we learn.

I do like learning new thing's and have learned alot in this forum.

As well as in the field.

The Marks that are of a High level order and recorded by the NGS are admiral.

And appropriately marked.

This is where the "PROFESSIONAL" is involved,whether he say Benchmark or

BENCH MARK,

A point or place from which we measure or a standard is set.

A Professional Standard.

And lower level orders of things,and is what I see...........

Those whom are Professionals,polite,courteous,truthful,diligent,hobbyists,can intermingle fun with the professionalism.ect..

And I see those whom well, I think that I would be straying off topic,

Which I have done and now return to the original post.

I think all benchmarks have some type of identifying marks,size,shape,type...

But still am not a professional detective benchmark,BENCH MARK recoverrrrr.

July 24, 2005

John,

Really, most anything you say in the forum these days is an attack on me, but you are too cowardly to email me, and at this point It wouldn't matter.

Your Just a troll dude.

Geo, everything you just said in your post has been discussed ad nauseam here in this forum. You need only research the past in here and you will have all your answers. If you are still unclear, you should use the Ask a Geodesist email address at NGS. They love making sure you have a good answer. Your Jokes and Puns are easy to see and you are clear about it. John has a different agenda...

My tail feathers are Fine Geo, I am just pointing out that John is a troll... You don't have to agree. No matter to me either way.

I'm Light, feel great, even better since I just decided to deal with you John, instead of watching the steady drip of your innuendoes... I decided that it is Politically Correct to call John a Troll, rather than the harmful alternative of just letting him go on and on. A lot of people will be secretly glad to see you know how it really is in the world... you know, the real world. The world who sees you as a Troll and hopes if they don't feed you that you will stop.

Oh and John, They seem to like discussing the NGS stuff over here too, but the NGS discussion is more prevalent than ever. So is reporting to NGS. Be a good steward and send them over there if it so bothers you, won't you? I'd hate to think that they are over here annoying you...

Best Regards,

Rob

Edited July 24, 2005 by evenfall

July 24, 2005

I, for one, am not a surveyor. Nor will I ever be one. I did not realize that this forum was only for professional surveyors. I did not realize that I am expected to post on here ONLY in formal, correct terms.

I truly thought this was a place to come and ask questions and have fun.

I am an Electrical Engineer (Field Grade), for the last 30 years, and find that every day, in every way I can learn about my profession from someone else if I just listen.

I find that it is no fun to be the "EXPERT". I prefer the 'learning curve'. If we are all expected to be experts on this site, then it is not the place for me. I thought we all had something to contribute.

For me, this has been just a fun hobby. It has aspects of history, math, geology, geography and just plain getting out in the world. Being able to report to NGS has been a real bonus.

I also thought that this forum was monitored by the powers behind GC.com......that we as individuals could 'weave' a thread but not dictate the forum.

What say we all stand back and take a deep breath. (Kind of the way I do on a mountain hike). Maybe we'll all feel better in the morning.

EDIT NOTE TO eswierk: I am sorry we muddied your simple question. We are not normally like this. Please do not run away in terror!

Edited July 24, 2005 by Spoo

July 24, 2005

Nah Spoo your close, But no Cigar,

But you know, if you want to talk to me as an electrical engineer, you can bet I am going to do my home work on you so I can have a conversation. I am not going to ask you to explain to me the theory of AC power is and what the differences are between impedance and resistance are, and how they affect a circuit, and then tell you that I would rather refer to things as whatever I want, in lieu of what a time honored tradition in electrical research has termed a certain way. I work with experts all the time. I let them be experts and I do my best to communicate with them in terms where we both draw similar meanings.

If I had my terminology wrong, would you not try to correct me out of kindness for my misinterpretations? I would hope so, and if I am humble and in the learn something new every day mindset you speak of, then I am happy I was corrected and all the better for it.

Now If I defy you and say I am sticking with the terminology I want to, and I am incorrect, you shake your head, shrug, and go back to the beer in your hand. I don't Blame you.

Geocaching's Benchmark game is a super mixed metaphor. It uses incorrect terminology, It confuses Datum with the correct one to use, and display formats which are not the traditional one to use and when you try to talk tech, no one is on the same page, and when you try to introduce them to time honored industry standards, People get confused. Why? Because they learned wrong in the first place and don't know any better, then they feel insulted when someone who is a professional in the field is talking tech and nothing Jibes. Then, once someone gets answered, someone else comes along and adds 2 cents worth that clouds the issue More. Why, because they too sometimes have an incomplete understanding, even thought they have a good heart and want to help. All thanks in part because Geocaching got it wrong in the first place.

So what's the rub, It's a game! Hehehe Till they teach others wrong with their misunderstandings and then it snowballs, and you know in a way, that genie is already out of the bottle a long time ago.

Tell you what, Spoo think of this, I am going to call the unit which measures electromotive force, an Ohm. Next I am going to put a sign on a door, which says,

BEWARE! 10,000,000 OHMS!

Plus or minus 10% because we got this one from Radio Shack... :-)

See where I am going? This is a tough and ultra detailed subject and people have TONS of questions. I feel it bad form to teach the subject wrong. It is fair to say that misconceptions deserve to be corrected, and no one has taken a ball Bat and forced the issue, But a good many o' Surveyor has tried to share in here and many left. They left because they felt that many in here disregard the truth about this science even when they never stop asking.

How long would you teach electricity and it's theories if your students flippantly made a game of it and wanted to learn only what they wanted.

I can tell you what it is like to advise a superior manager that dumping 40 ton CAT articulated haul Trucks under 13 KVA Transmission lines is a bad idea. But until you show some people, you don't win... Being overridden we did like we were told, till we killed a truck and nearly a driver when the box went up and came within 2 feet of the lines... It was later related that he had been given good advice. Heads did roll. His.

Btw... It makes the prettiest Blue arc, and the loudest buzzzzuzzuzzzuuzzzzzzzing noise you ever want to hear.

Baaaad JUJU. About got one of my Guys Killed. No matter about the I told you so. Can you say Pucker factor? The paperwork sucked too. Then the power utility sends a bill...

An Old timer told me, if you wanna work on Tube gear, do it with one hand... Not two. I bet there are a few folks who pass this way that would challenge that advise. You and I know that you can, sure, But you may get carried away on a stretcher. Some of these people would sterilize them selves in a near field RF hazard even if you told them there was danger.

Using Blab for terminology muddies the water. People who just wanna have their way want to for their own sake.

Respectfully there are a good many here who really want to learn something and have fun. I see you as one of them, So as a professional an sure you see where dumbing things down so it is easy really serves fewer than it does many. How would you do it if you were involved in a situation where people could take away a better understanding of what your profession really is about? Would you let them go away misinformed? Geocaching could simply remove the incorrect things or define them better that they are, Heck let's go as far as to define them correctly and then they would be a great myth buster rather than a myth creator.

What would be the point of answering a question if you didn't intend to teach what's true? The Gamer who sees a threat to their score might. If the tally is clean then there is no threat.

You can learn correctly and still have fun. People ask good questions but a good bit of the explanation is spent correcting misconceptions and misunderstandings which could be avoided. It is too bad that it doesn't work that way.

Rob

Edited July 24, 2005 by evenfall

4.1k · July 24, 2005

Spoo,

From when we started hunting benchmarks and using this forum, we always figured it was an aid to our having fun finding those benchmarks. It has been a place to ask for help and a place to "crow" about some of our better finds. It didn't matter if the benchmark was only 5 years old or 125 years old, if it was a great find for whatever reason, people would come to the forum and share the details with others.

This was one of the many aspects that made this forum so enjoyable. You found something a bit different than the common benchmark and you could come here and share and pick up a few "Tips" on other benchmarks that are just waiting for one of us to come along and have some fun finding it.

Getting help identifing a benchmark or that extra bit of info on how to "interpret" what is seen where the benchmark is supposed to be is another great aspect of this forum.

It was my understanding that the creation of the NGS forum was for those that are interested in getting more technically involved with the recovery of marks and their logs with the NGS, While this forum would be for the average benchmark hunter who is just out there for his own pleasure.

The last aspect of this forum is for the congratulations and praise for some of the more difficult and/or unusual finds. We all enjoy finding the "good ones" and generally have no others we can tell (get excited) about the finds except here in this forum. Just about everyone here loves to hear about the "good finds" and loves to share theirs.

Let's keep the fun in this forum!

John

July 24, 2005

John,

I feel you are passing judgment on everyone here. There are plenty of posters having fun in their way.

Just because they are not having fun Your way, what gives you the right to impose the definition of fun on any of these people? It is impolite to impose the way you thing this should be John. In truth it still is the way you want it to be. No one is stopping you from enjoying this hobby the way you like. No one has made back handed comments or sniped at you No one has been resistant towards the way you want to play. But you have engaged others and most specifically me in that sort of actions, and I am sorry John, I don't appreciate it, and there are others here who didn't think it was so swift either.

I have never excluded any kind of play here in this Forum, I have encouraged it all. I have advocated that people should do things similar to the way you enjoy this as much as I have promoted other ways. I have been inclusive of all things except cheating. My record stands for itself. I even Lobbied for you.

I have always promoted that everyone here should exercise fun in the way they want to, but I have seen this evolve beyond just what you like. Other people have come into this and contributed ways that helped to evolve the fun. You need to come to grips with this.

You are on record for sniping at this evolution, you are on record for mocking it and making backhanded comments. You have been nothing less than overtly confrontational toward me for nearly a year, and it is all in your history John. You have not been the least bit kind. You have acted like a Troll. Your record is easy to look back on. People need only click your Forum Title and a page will open that lists all the forum posts for any user. Even you.

Even the blind could easily see the social warfare you have engaged in around here in your desire to limit this hobby JUST to the aspects of it you enjoy and think it should be.

You think this should be limited to being just a game, It is a game John, but it has evolved beyond that. People wanted that and that is why. People are discussing more than just the game John, They have evolved beyond just the Self congratulatory self back patting look at what I found pics. Sure it is fun to gloat John, but some people actually find other aspects of this edifying.

I can assure you that your negativity towards the evolution of benchmark hunting has been less than supportive to many. It is sad that you could not be like many of us are, while supportive of the way you enjoy this, being inclusive of how others enjoy it too.

Like I said in an earlier post, If it bothers you so much that others here enjoy technical discussion, please recommend the NGS forum to them, gently, and provide them the link. I promoted that forum very vigorously because I knew you would be a troll about this later on, and here you are. The sad thing is that back when I was lobbying for that forum, I really did have you in mind. I wanted to free you from having to endure the tech talk, but you are on record for opposing that forum. Heck, you have even posted in the forum over there within technical discussions, and as usual, you were not being supportive of anything either. In fact, as I recall you are on record for being a troll towards me.

You not only vigorously opposed people having that forum as a place to talk tech, you have come out yet again as wishing it didn't happen here, now. It is sad that you seek to limit the ways people have chosen to have fun John. One can easily see where you stand here.

Here, try this, be a good egg and promote the use of the NGS Forum, so the technical discussions will take up over there. Further, If you don't like what you are seeing, simply stop reading it. Change the channel. You are the captain over your life over there. We are all aware of what you and Shirley enjoy and no one is asking you to stop. So please if you would, Accept that we are glad you are having fun the way you like, without us imposing on the way you enjoy it, and let the rest decide for themselves which way they want to have fun.

What you long for is a Nostalgic Unicorn John, A Mystical creature you thought you saw, but has now evolved. it may have been how things were but it is not what they are. Live in today with us John, and stop being a Troll towards the now many various ways people have their fun here. You want to have fun? Cool. Go Have it. No one is stopping you. In fact Black Dog has kept the light on for you with his threads filled with Benchmark Pics and Finds. You are still free to start as many threads as you like.

Please quit hassling people over the way they want to have fun. Get over yourself. If you can't do that, then Move on.

Rob

July 24, 2005

I am going to irratate someone here no matter what I say. So be it, I'll just dive right in.

I agree with you, John, that this forum is for us hobbiests.(Sp) When I have a question of depth, such as my question of 1st, 2nd and 3rd orders, I post them on the NGS forum. Here, I come to 'crow' and see what others have accomplished. When anyone out there finds an old mark, a mark not seen in many years or a strange mystery, it is a feather in our collective caps. I love reading about the exploits of everyone here.

And I have had my turn at crowing. It is one of the reasons I come here. Who else but YOU folks would understand my elation at finding a chiseled mark from 1876 that has never been reported since that date and was even declared destroyed in 1934?

Does anyone here actually think that when I recovered a Brass pin from 1853 on a mountain top that I sat and wondered if this was a Bench Mark or a Benchmark?

OK, I am probably guilty of mutilating the correct survey language here, but if I wanted to be a real surveyor, I would go to school for it. If NGS does not like my reports, they do not have to use them.

Does my usage of the word BENCHMARK vs Bench Mark detract from the fact that I found the dog-gone thing? Especially when it is RIGHT THERE and the USPSQD says it wasn't?

I am having fun looking for MARKS. Not Benchmarks or Bench Marks or orders of marks.

There are times when I throw out a question or 'crow'. I use this forum. When I have a question of serious magnitude or technical need, I use the NGS forum. According to evenfall, anyone here that is NOT a surveyor should not be answering any questions. I apologize to all I have given mis-information to in answering their questions.

I suggest that anyone that thinks I am an idiot, should just not bother with reading my posts.

EDITED for content and spelling.

Edited July 24, 2005 by Spoo

July 24, 2005

Spoo,

You attribute this to me:

There are times when I throw out a question or 'crow'. I use this forum. When I have a question of serious magnitude or technical need, I use the NGS forum. According to evenfall, anyone here that is NOT a surveyor should not be answering any questions. I apologize to all I have given mis-information to in answering their questions.

BS. Prove it. You cant. While you are editing you should stick to the facts. I defy you to find where I have even alluded to such Crap. Am I pissed at you? Heck No, What you said affects your integrity not mine. I will happily stand behind anything I have ever said in here. I have never said any such thing.

Scroll up. I made the comment that the word benchmark is a misnomer and is misleading. I feel it confuses people in to thinking of all types of survey data as benchmark data and in the truth of the matter it isn't. It is vertical data only. I feel being accurate in our terminology and discussion leads to a uniform understanding of the subject by all people. This way we don't have to explain reality over and over. We don't have to explain when a benchmark is not a bench mark.... It is confusing to many. It takes a great deal of discussion sometimes to correct some people's thinking and it is not their fault they have it wrong. It was introduced to them as a misnomer without explanation in the first place and then becomes part of their idiom. I feel it is a shame, I feel we could do better. It is my comment. It's My Opinion.

It is amazing to me that as someone who works in an engineering field does not understand it.

Listen, if you want to play with survey markers fine. If you want to learn about the technical aspects of survey markers, then prepare to accept the truth about them from the definitions ascribed to them by the industry that developed the technology. When you ask a technical question, be prepared for the answer. If you have a problem with answers from professionals who willingly and politely answer them, then buy a book, use google and refrain from asking where a professional can answer you properly. When I need an electrician, or ask them a question, I don't tell him how to do his Job, and I accept the answers he gives me. Get my meaning?

But please Spoo, don't flatter yourself. And next time you want to engage in character assassination against me, Use caution, and quote me correctly. Heck, quote be directly with Bibliography. You should know well by now that I am more than happy to stand up and defend my beliefs very vigorously and I will debate you anytime. I have been here before and have no problem. I am not afraid of debate or difficult conversation. So stick to the facts. Better yet, Don't become a Troll too.

Rob

Edited July 24, 2005 by evenfall

July 24, 2005

evenfall:

You know what? I give up. You are right. This is the "evenfall forum".

You have chosen to decide that you are right and we are wrong and that is that. I agree.

I bow down to you O Holy God.

I am just sorry I have prepaid a two year subscription to this site.

2.7k · July 24, 2005

Spoo -

Well just do what I do. I just got back from a trip this weekend, and after my last post, I read your 3 posts, 2oldfarts (the rockhounders) 2 posts, ArtMan's post, and GEO*Trailblazer 1's post, and I really don't see any problem here. :anibad:

July 25, 2005

Spoo,

I feel for you man, You could have had all this for free. Why Pay? What does Jeremy give you in return for Benchmark hunting funding? Nada. This has never been about me dude. I never had to ask the questions. But Spoo Really, God? Please... Don't Flatter yourself. You are the one who is sitting in Judgment of me. You want it all your way. It was you who entered this thread and attacked me. I simply stated an opinion, you are just a person resisting my opinion yet have absolutely nothing to add. Get over yourself. Go back to your beer. I wish you were worthy of debate, Forums are a good use for that, but alas, you aren't or you would have offered something by now.

John, Hell, you know I think your a Troll, You have followed me around the forum like bubble gum on my shoe. Jabbing, attacking, resisting, acting like a hater. Your mocking made me laugh. You could never live and let live. But hey, Benchmark forums would be great if you were the only one in it. You won't debate either, You just remind me about your difficulties with english.

Black Dog, I'd respond to you but hell, it would become a 2 page thread before you understood. I don't want to see you look that sad again, ever. You have the record for how many times a question can be asked and re-asked without being understood. The earth let out a sigh when you gave up. Hope you had a nice trip this last weekend. I am glad you remembered to make a waypoint for your car and made it home safe.

The best thing I learned from the three (actually four) of you is that there are some great folks in this Forum, and the contrasts which you provide really make them pop out.

Believe Me, Some of the antics you guys pull have kept me in stitches and hell, The rest of Geocaching is not so sure of what happens in here either. (It would right a new chapter in a book about NLP should Richard Bandler decide to study you.) Well that extends beyond geocaching too. But hey, you guys have been watched and it has been decided that you are too resistive as a group and can't fall in step so as to really work with anyone. It was a nice test though. There are some great individual contributors though and they don't need pats on the back like the crows do. So It really does look like you are playing amongst yourselves. You may as well be happy with that 5 year old database. You wanted it left the way it is through indecisiveness and inaction, so I hope you got what you wanted.

As to the ones who made a difference, you know who you are, You are doing Great work. Don't worry about the Gamer Bullies who wanna pat themselves on the back all day while wishing the game was all about them, and keep the rest of you from learning. Don't allow their inertia to weigh you down. Volunteer to help if that is what you like, and in spite of the gamer bullies, keep discussing the knowledge and sharing it with others. Tell newcomers the truth and strive to be accurate, Do not follow in the footsteps of these fine gentlemen who feel they should tell you how to play. Play any way you want. Reach Higher. You now know who the Big three are. They make no bones about wanting to be the boss over all of you. They have already run off plenty of potential players here, Don't let them get you down. All you guys really needed was the knowledge and information. You did all the rest.

Best regards to the folks who make the difference.

Rob

August 12, 2005

I'm sorry I bothered reading this thread. I enjoy this as a hobby and fun. You guys should spend a week with my mother. She'd teach ya a thing or two about "if ya haven't got something nice to say about somebody...".

Contribute on the side of the positive boys.

I'm just learning about benchmarking, and now it seems, bench marking (which would have been fine in a topic of it's own, methinks). I know of a square stone "mark" (what kind it is, I have no clue now, thankyouverymuch) that is a white stone square with just an "x" carved in the top of it. I don't know what it is (I wasn't sure if it might be a property marker) and I'm certainly afraid to ask and post pictures of it, if you kids are going to hi-jack the thread and turn it into a debate over terminology and spelling errors.

I like what you guys usually have to say (both of you), but going back and forth like this in someone else's thread? Come on.

Thank you for the original posting, though.

4.1k · August 12, 2005

2RedJeepers, if you have the coordinates you can do a search by them and see if anything is close to that spot and meets the description of where you found the "square". If you need a link to the proper search page, just ask and one will be provided.

John

August 12, 2005

2RedJeepers, if you have the coordinates you can do a search by them and see if anything is close to that spot and meets the description of where you found the "square". If you need a link to the proper search page, just ask and one will be provided.

John

Thank you. I'd like that link if you've got it. I've checked this site, and there's nothing here for it. Another resource or two would be great.

4.1k · August 12, 2005

HERE you go. Be sure to click on the "by coordinates" button.

John

August 23, 2005

This looks like the right thread for this question... I went looking for my first benchmark today and found a Vertical Control Mark With only part of the stamping I was looking for. It is also 20 or so feet from where the decription piut it. (wrong side of the tracks) but other than that it is on the right end of the underpass etc... The other pier has no benchmarks or any indication there ever was one.

Stamped on the mark is "FOR INFORMATION OR TO REPORT DAMAGE WRITE THE DIRECTOR NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY WASHINGTO D.C. and a horizontal line with a small vertical slash.

The coords (according to myGPSr) are N39 02.160 W094 25.350

I have photos, but am not sure how to upload to the forums

The "cache sheet " used was for Benchmark KE0135 showing N39 02.183 W094 25.317 The cache sheet does say that the location is scaled so that may account for some errors, but the Description says 12.5 ' east of the rail, I found it approximately 12.5 ' west of the rail! also the signal light designation does not match the sheet calls for 26.96. In the vicinity is signal station 26.92

Any Ideas on what is up with this!?!?! Did I find the right benchmark or do I need to go back out and try again?

Edited August 23, 2005 by leighhale

2.7k · August 23, 2005

leighhale -

I think what you may have found is a different mark. The reason I think that is that you found a mark with the Geodetic Survey logo on it and the KE0135 was monumented by the Coast and Geodetic Survey (CGS). You find this out when you click on the place in the datasheet that says "view original datasheet" and look at the place that says "KE0135 HISTORY - 1950 MONUMENTED CGS". The Geodetic Survey didn't exist in 1950.

If you found "part of the stamping", it could be a reset mark. It is extremely likely that if you found a re-set mark, the original mark KE0135 is gone now.

A re-set mark will say something like "G 231 RESET".

I don't really know what you meant by: "With only part of the stamping I was looking for. ". I'm assuming maybe you found a disk that said G 231 RESET.

In any case, the main thing is that if you found a disk that says "G 231" (without the "RESET" part) then you post a Found-it. Otherwise, you should post a Not-Found and upload your pictures anyway. (Posting a Note instead of a Not-Found is usually used when there was a basic problem with looking for the mark, like a big fence blocking you, total confusion, or something. :mad: )

After you log the mark with whatever kind of log you choose, then you have the opportunity to click on a place to upload a picture.

Edited August 23, 2005 by Black Dog Trackers

August 23, 2005

Everything that is stamped on the mark was listed in my original post, what I meant by "part of the stamping I was looking for" is that there is no "reset", or other codes anywhere on it...

I think this link will get you to a photo of the mark...

Thanks for the info...

2.7k · August 23, 2005

Ah OK, I see.

The mark doesn't seem to have any designation (like G 231 or GREEN or something) on it, which is very unusual.

What you found isn't G 231.

August 23, 2005

Ok That would mean that I have a did not find.... Oh well I guess I will be looking for some more soon. Thanks

Benchmark With No Identifying Marks

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