Whoops Another Cache Gone!

[+FerretFinder]

Examiner Article

Edited July 11, 2005 by FerretFinder

[+Renegade Knight]

This looks like the real deal.

 

Edit: The OP said it was a bison capsul in another post. So it's possible.

Edited July 11, 2005 by Renegade Knight

[+AtoZ]

and you assume it is a geocache why?????

[+LSUMonica]

It is a geocache because we know the HIDER and the cache...

[+BlueDeuce]

Another reason why.

[+KoosKoos]

Then this is one of my favorite quotes....(emphasis added by me)

 

“From all indications at this point we’re going to say it was an explosives device,” said James Morris group supervisor of the Nashville Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms office.

 

What indications, after they blew it up, game them the impression it was an explosive?? Not questioning what the did, I guess, but come on....how quickly does it become obvious that this one WAS a false alarm??

[+welch]

This looks like the real deal.

 

Edit: The OP said it was a bison capsul in another post. So it's possible.

They blew up a bison tube thinking it was a bomb????

[+sbell111]

“We’re finger printing right now. We’ve just got to run down where this thing came from.” Gwaltney said.

 

Federal and local investigators cordoned off a large portion of the parking lot and walked the area in a grid pattern as they searched for pieces of the device. They also searched a wooded area adjacent to the parking lot and collected finger prints from the shopping cart return rack, where the device originated.

TNLFP?

Edited July 11, 2005 by sbell111

[+webscouter.]

They collected fingerprints from a cart rack?? How many shoppers do they think touched the rack?

[+Evil Homer]

What indications, after they blew it up, game them the impression it was an explosive?? Not questioning what the did, I guess, but come on....how quickly does it become obvious that this one WAS a false alarm??

 

That's what they say to play it safe with people watching you after the "all clear" is given. They don't want anyone assuming that since this one was a "hoax" the next one will be, and have someone pick it up or try to open it.

 

Believe me, some people are that stupid...

 

"the last bomb threat was a fake, duh, this one must be too!"

 

We had to use a similar approach in Afghanistan while destroying/gathering unexploded ordinance. We never let anyone see us pick up expended ammunition that we, read : experts, deemed safe to move. Some might think that seeing us move it means that every other bomb / mortar round / artillery shell / land mine / etc will be safe to move.

 

At least we tried...LOL

 

 

 

Evil Homer

Edited July 11, 2005 by Evil Homer

[Jeremy]

I wouldn't begrudge a police officer from acting on a perceived threat. It seems to me that once a police officer is told something is a possible bomb that they must treat it that way. Even if it is a bison container, which is essentially a keychain pill holder (tiny tiny for those who never saw one).

 

The perception of everyday folks about what a bomb looks like always completely amazes me. They're not painted with BOMB on the side, shiny and bomb-shaped, nor are they inside a wooden crate with ACME stamped on them. They'll freak out over a metal keychain but ignore the piled up bags of McDonalds leavings without a second look.

[+Joypa]

Positive proof that people are idiots.

[+Jamie Z]

When I first read the article, I was sure that this was clearly not a geocache. I mean, read it. They were looking at the cart rack...

 

"The Food Lion manager called police and fire officials after a doughnut delivery man reported seeing a suspicious device in a shopping cart return rack in the store’s parking lot, Gallatin Fire Marshal Stan Gwaltney said."

 

But after a few more seconds thought.. I wondered, who the heck would hide a geocache in such a mundane place? I'm still wondering that.

 

Even without a bomb scare, lame.

 

Jamie

[+Glenn]

Here is a photo of what the container looks like.

 

 

You can read about it here, Apparent pipe bomb puzzles Gallatin authorities.

 

BTW, there are two Food Lions in Gallatin, TN. One at 744 Nashville Pike and another at 471 East Main St.

Edited July 12, 2005 by Bushwhacked Glenn

[+Jamie Z]

The articles seem to indicate that the police have positive evidence that this was an explosive device... Monica, you say you know the hider of this cache, but I'm betting this was no cache. How are you so sure it's a cache?

 

And if it is a cache, someone needs to come forward before the investigation gets very large and expensive.

 

Jamie

Edited July 12, 2005 by Jamie Z

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Let's keep on topic here; whether you think it's lame or not wasn't asked...surely all of you who insist on calling every parking lot micro that pops up lame have figured out by now that WE DON"T CARE that you think they're lame - we like 'em.

 

And for y'all who want to question if it was a cache, it was. As does LSUMonica who posted above, I know the owner and talked about this situation with him in person yesterday.

 

As for insulting the owner about the cache, he is a well-know, trusted and much-loved geocacher, and this hide is nothing that most of us haven't done something quite simular to.

 

On the bomb topic, this is just gonna happen. A suspicious container is all the bomb squad needs to roll into action - be it a cell phone under a stairwell, an ammo can near an airport, a tube, any tube, a battery, a cigar left in a public place - all common containers, all could be bombs.

 

Not having been blessed with infinite wisdom and perfect understanding, authorities have to act on experience, training and intuition.

 

Think carefully about your answer:

 

You've been a cop for ten years, seeing way too much of the underbelly of America.

 

Burnt out on domestic violence calls and the harrowing dangers of traffic stops you want to move on, maybe make a few more bucks a year or move into something a bit safer so you'll be around to enjoy the grand-kids.

 

You go to Explosives Ordinance Disposal (EOD) school, where they teach you, replete with graphic videos, more of the nasty and innovative ways people try to kill each other.

 

You get moved to the bomb squad, and trained further on the dangers of man.

 

Most of your calls are like this

 

Bomb Squad Detonates Suspicious Package

LAST UPDATE: 6/21/2005 9:16:36 AM

 

Watch Video

 

The bomb squad was called out to deal with a suspicious package that was left in a domestic dispute. According to police, the woman got a package from her ex-husband just before 10 last night. She became suspicious and called police to her home near 5300 S. 3600 W. in Taylorsville.

 

Authorities evacuated two eight-plexes which put about 40 people out of their homes. The bomb squad x-rayed the package and then detonated it as a precaution.

The "bomb" was a vibrator hubby sent to make up with her.

 

Your buddies rib you all the time about exploding sex toys.

 

Somebody calls in a tube wired to a rack in a public place - you carefully approach and see that it's green, has this little "geocache" label on it.

 

Ohh yeah, you remember a memo circulating through the EOD community about these things...it's a game piece hidden by some computer group...

 

Now, are you gonna walk up, grab it and unscrew the lid?

 

If you do you won't succeed long in EOD, as you and or your career will fly all to pieces the first time you "assume" wrongly or trust a label!

 

It's just a bison tube, how dangerous can it be, you ask? Look up the stats on how many folks lose fingers and hands to common firecrackers.

 

So, I hope with that scenario I have shown that the EOD guy has every right and expectation to be VERY carefull and skeptical. He's not going to treat your geocache as harmless, no matter how small or well-marked. In his shoes I wouldn't either!

 

So, that leaves a delimma for the geocaching community. we are not, for any number of reasons, going to register every geocache with the local police, though that might be a good idea.

 

We can't label or somehow make certain that caches are obvious - If make them all clear plastic with a gc.com label on the outside witha name and phone number in plain sight the battery or plush-doll TB in it could just as well be the bomb, so that won't help.

 

I think what we need is a contact person or persons, an 800 number answered 24/7 by someone with the ability to quickly discern where every geocache is supposed - or not supposed, to be.

 

Whether this falls to a Groundspeak employee or to the volunteer reviewer base, local, state and federal authorities should recieve a memo outlining our game, common cache types, characteristics of a geocache, and a contact person.

 

The authorities are going to be much friendlier and less skeptical if they can call a known entity and get a description of the object and how and where its hidden. They may still blow it up to be sure, but it won't result in national news if they were told beforehand what it was.

 

As much as Groundspeak does not want to accept responsibility for any geocache, being just a listing service, they are the only folks that could serve as a national information clearing-house about our game.

 

In any event, when a cache achieves this type of attention, I believe it is incumbent on the owner or a geocacher knowledgeable about the situation to contact the authorities ASAP to mitigate damage and "defuse" the situation.

 

Just like in geocaching, the rumor mill and extreme emotions run rampant in every aspect of society - you can't quieten or ignore a building situation like this story, can't just hope it will blow over - you must get out ahead of it with the truth. Rumors and outright fabrications will still fly, but in the face of the known truth, won't last long.

 

Most states and federal authorities have a statute like this:

JUST BECAUSE IT ISN'T REAL DOESN'T MEAN ITS NOT A CRIME!

 

      ORS 166.385 Possession of hoax destructive device.  (1) A person commits the crime of Possession of a Hoax Destructive Device if the person knowingly places another person in fear of serious physical injury by:

     

        1. Possessing, manufacturing, selling, delivering, placing or causing to be placed a hoax destructive device; or

           

        2. Sending a hoax destructive device to another person

The question here for geocachers is intent - if the bomb squad is attracted to your cache, blows it up and finds it harmless, they don't just forget about it; a case is left open to determine who placed it and why - your coming forward may save you from being charged under this law!

 

In this day of near-panic over bombs and Homeland Security, do you really want your fingerprints sitting in an open FBI case? Want to be on Homeland Security's short-list of bomb-making suspects? Much better to resolve the issue on your own!

 

Let's seriously consider a nation-wide contact and a training letter to authorities before someone gets prosecuted and our game becomes more regulated.

Edited July 12, 2005 by TheAlabamaRambler

[Jeremy]

Here is a photo of what the container looks like.

 

Well that is certainly not a bison container.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

No, the bison tube was inside that.

[+KoosKoos]

Again, the articles seem to allude to authorities knowing it's an explosive even AFTER investigating it.

 

Has this respected cacher already informed the police of what the container was, why it was there, etc?

[+JoGPS]

I spoke with the local police and fire marshal on Saturday morning and met with the fire marshal for two hours today and everything is moving along just fine without this thread, it was a bison tube hanging from fishing line from the steel tube seen pictured above, the bison tube was wrapped in sliver duck tape to match the pipe sleeve that was part of the cart rack, bison tube was not inside of steel sleeve, and is not shown in any of the pictures available to the public.

 

BTW it was hidden with permission and indeed did have geocache written on the duck tape when placed, but may have worn off of with opening and closing the container, and they know they FUBAR on calling it an explosive device after they blew it up and saw that it was not., but that was not newsworthy

 

With all that said, this is going to happen every now and then, no need to get bent out of shape. The officials are doing a good job that I want them to do in protecting me and my family

 

The only way to help ( that I see ) is more local geocachers take more responsibly for the sport they love and talk will local officials and explain everything, I have never had a bad contact with any official, and have spoken with quite a few.

 

Now back to your regular thread of guessing and calling it lame without being there ……. JOE

[+KoosKoos]

I think what we need is a contact person or persons, an 800 number answered 24/7 by someone with the ability to quickly discern where every geocache is supposed - or not supposed, to be.

 

<snip>

 

Let's seriously consider a nation-wide contact and a training letter to authorities before someone gets prosecuted and our game becomes more regulated.

Of course, the person answering the phone would need some sort of database to look up which caches were in say, zip code 37066. In fact, maybe we could make that database of cache locations available to LE via some sort of web site.

 

That way, someone could look up where caches are supposed to be located and a minimum expectation of what size they are...some might even include the type of container.

 

Who at this national "hotline" could say with certainty that yes, the box you're seeing Mr. Bombsquad is indeed the one placed by a geocacher 8 months ago, so no sweat??

 

On another note, I'm glad to hear the hider is trying to work with LE on what this was. I don't think people in this thread have been calling their actions an overreaction given the current climate. I know my only complaint was their multiple quotes regarding "confirmation" that it was an explosive device.

[+Jamie Z]

BTW it was hidden with permission and indeed did have geocache written on the duck tape when placed, but may have worn off of with opening and closing the container,

Good to hear, but then why did the manager of the store call the police? Who gave permission if it wasn't the store manager?

 

I'm not begrudging the police for reacting to an unknown object, but there seems to be some inconsistancies here, as well as some admonition to cease discussion of this topic.

 

Jamie

[+Renegade Knight]

....Let's seriously consider a nation-wide contact and a training letter to authorities before someone gets prosecuted and our game becomes more regulated.

A hoax is intentsional. If they do use the law to prosecute someone that's harassment just to prove a point. Thus far my efforts to do something to make the situation with geocaching and EOD better have not produced much of a result. Nor do I expect it to.

 

When the EOD blows up a container even when someone who knows exactly what it there explains it, I just don't think a nationwide contact will do much. However if the EOD agences ever do decide to work with GC.com, or Terracachers then maybe we can make some progress, though they will still blow it up if called.

[+DaveA]

I wouldn't begrudge a police officer from acting on a perceived threat. It seems to me that once a police officer is told something is a possible bomb that they must treat it that way. Even if it is a bison container, which is essentially a keychain pill holder (tiny tiny for those who never saw one).

I begrudge law enforcement for this. I do not begrudge the ignorant citizen. The ignorant citizen fearing AlQueda operatives might be living next door who has stocked up on duct tape and plastic sheeting will report all manner of nonsense. Their only fault is they listen to the present presidential administration's fear mongering nonsense.

 

It is the trained professionals I expect more from. A bison tube is incapable of being used as an explosive much more powerful than an m80 which one can purchase from any fireworks stand. I do not expect the ignorant citizen to realize this, but I do expect trained professional to know this.

 

How many times does a geocache, even micros or in this case nanos need to be blown up before you call a spade a spade and say "Look, if you trained folks are that stupid it is your problem, not ours."?

 

Seriously, why justify professional incompetence? A bison tube??????? Please.

 

[edited to add. I am a USMC trained demolitions expert, in case anyone is wondering what my qualifications to speak on this topic are]

Edited July 12, 2005 by DaveA

[+fizzymagic]

The question here for geocachers is intent - if the bomb squad is attracted to your cache, blows it up and finds it harmless, they don't just forget about it; a case is left open to determine who placed it and why - your coming forward may save you from being charged under this law!

How do you figure? This makes no sense at all.

 

In the case we had in Modesto, the cacher in question did come forward and was immediately threatened with prosecution by the authorities. It turned out for him that doing the "right thing" and coming forward to claim the geocache backfired big time.

 

Remember: if the container was placed appropriately (e.g. either in a public place or with permission) then the geocaher has done nothing wrong. I think that the legal advice that lawyers would give in this situation is best: don't volunteer anything. And don't answer any questions without legal representation.

[JohnX]

I suggest that if you have the reasonable capability and reason to do something cool, like blow something up, on occasion, you will take the opportunity if it presents itself. Especially if that is what you are paid to do.

 

There was a well made point about a bomb in a McDonald's bag. You can do a lot more damage with a bomb in a trash can than with something in a cigar tube. No-one bats an eye at trash, but if some over-imaginative ninny looking for excitement in their life sees something like a micro cache hidden behind a grocery store in a clear medicine bottle, it becomes a "drug drop" for the local police to investigate.

 

The sad situation is if someone reports a bomb, the emergency response professionals have to respond to the report as if it was a bomb. That's the way it goes.

[+Ambrosia]

I think what we need is a contact person or persons, an 800 number answered 24/7 by someone with the ability to quickly discern where every geocache is supposed - or not supposed, to be.

 

I think that it would be a lot less trouble if the authorities just had a gps, got the coords at the "bomb" site, called in the coords to a desk clerk at the police station, and found the nearest cache. Except in the case of multi's, this would fix that problem.

 

The number thing to a local cacher might be a good idea, but then you might take the chance that the local is gone or away from the phone. But maybe a list of the top 5 cachers in the area who have done all of the caches, and their cell phone numbers.

 

Of course, this is all silly when you take into account the most recent stories: Cacher tries to tell authorities that it is a cache, they ignore him, blow it up. Cacher stands outside tape, tells authorities it is a cache, they ignore him, he jumps tape and opens cache for them (wonder if he was prosecuted for that?) So it really doesn't seem to matter. What good is a number to a local cacher, if the authorities wouldn't listen to these cachers who were right in front of their face?

[Yankees Win!]

I think that it would be a lot less trouble if ...

I think it would be a lot less trouble if people didn't hide caches in conspicuous locations or place caches with the intent that the activites of those seeking the cache would be conspicuous to passersby. But that would never work, because it would necessitate that both hiders and finders exercise common sense.

[+Tidalflame]

I think it would be a lot less trouble if people didn't hide caches in conspicuous locations or place caches with the intent that the activites of those seeking the cache would be conspicuous to passersby. But that would never work, because it would necessitate that both hiders and finders exercise common sense.

 

Well, that pretty much rules out the whole US. I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm pretty sure I remember hearing about a cache in a forest being blown up by the bomb squad. With the amount of paranoia in the US, pretty much anything can be "conspicuous" to the right (wrong?) person.

[+Ambrosia]

I think it would be a lot less trouble if people didn't hide caches in conspicuous locations or place caches with the intent that the activites of those seeking the cache would be conspicuous to passersby. But that would never work, because it would necessitate that both hiders and finders exercise common sense.

 

Well, that pretty much rules out the whole US. I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm pretty sure I remember hearing about a cache in a forest being blown up by the bomb squad. With the amount of paranoia in the US, pretty much anything can be "conspicuous" to the right (wrong?) person.

I agree. This would severely, severely limit the game. I don't think that the people who have had their caches blown up lately lacked in commen sense. That is a little severe without knowing every circumstance.

 

It only seems like those cachers are lacking, until something like this happens to one of your own caches.

[Yankees Win!]

Well, that pretty much rules out the whole US.

I agree. This would severely, severely limit the game.

I disagree. In the long run, it would probably be better for geocaching if people refrained from hiding caches in conspicuous locations, such as in front of police stations and firehouses, or mere yards from the homes or businesses of "muggles." If that's "too limiting," then cache seekers should use their common sense and refrain from seeking such caches.

 

For example, there are people in my area who deliberately place (invariably) micro caches in locations that guarantee that the activities of cache seekers will be extremely conspicuous and/or suspicious. Reading the logs for one such cache, it seems that practically half of the cache seekers have been stopped and questioned by the police. All part of the game? A positive reflection of the activity? Sorry, I don't think so.

 

So many similar caches are placed mere yards from, and in full view of, homes or businesses. Again, from reading the logs, it is apparent that some of those caches led to confrontations with "muggles."

 

But looking at the other side of the coin, I also notice that many of those caches are very short-lived ... so I suppose if we can't exercise common sense in our placement and seeking of caches, "muggles" will continue to take matters into their own hands. And geocachers will be viewed as "undesirables." All part of the game, I suppose. But not at all a positive reflection of the activity.

Edited July 12, 2005 by Yankees Win!

[ImpalaBob]

Koikeeper and I did big, bigger, biggest .....

http://img.Groundspeak.com/cache/log/displ...1150e25710b.jpg

 

Now .... Why isn't the ordinance lettering painted over???? Is this the approvers fault or the cache owners negligence?

 

I carry spray paint now to correct this. I'm not going back as it was here that I picked up L.D. and taking all these antibiotics sucks!

 

ImpalaBob

[+Renegade Knight]

Well, that pretty much rules out the whole US.

I agree. This would severely, severely limit the game.

I disagree. ...

I counter your disagreement with their dissagreement.

 

First we already don't allow caches in high priority terrorist targets for exactly the reasons you mention. We also live in a world where ex wives report vibrators as a bomb and the EOD dutifly blows them up. In the urban envrionment micro's rule the day. This is the same envronment where people use vehciles as bombs. The scale is different.

 

Where I do agree is to hide them so they are not found by muggles. It's the reporting that leads to the EOD (Or drug enforcement depending on how it's reported.)

[Yankees Win!]

I counter your disagreement with their dissagreement.

 

First we already don't allow caches in high priority terrorist targets for exactly the reasons you mention.

My comments were not addressed towards "what is (or should be officially) allowed," but what is "prudent" or "makes use of common sense." No matter how many or how few rules the site has, the latter can't be regulated.

 

My opinion is that a few cache hiders must receive some kind of perverted pleasure by intentionally placing cache seekers into very conspicuous situations ... but I also agree that if the cache meets the site guidelines, there is no reason it should not be posted. Therefore, those who seek such caches are at fault for lacking the common sense to walk away from such situations.

 

We also live in a world where ex wives report vibrators as a bomb and the EOD dutifly blows them up.  In the urban envrionment micro's rule the day.  This is the same envronment where people use vehciles as bombs.  The scale is different.

 

Is it? What if officials had exploded a "suspicious device" like the one pictured earlier in this thread that had been packed full of Anthrax (or some other biological/chemical agent)?

[NatureFish]

A bison tube is incapable of being used as an explosive much more powerful than an m80 which one can purchase from any fireworks stand.

 

Well, dunno about you, being trained and all, but I sure as heck don't want an M80 going off in my hand, or anywhere near me if it's in a metal (shrapnel-producing) container! But that's just me, I don't have any training in this area. My uncle does, a bird-colonel in Army EOD, and he's taught me a few tricks - mainly don't handle anything that might go boom casually.

 

As to public caches requiring stealth, we have lots of them and love 'em!

 

One is a magnetic keyholder on a No Parking sign in front of a retail store where the owner works - the challenge is to get it during business hours without being seen through the plate-glass store-front. This is in strip mall where the parking lot and sidewalk has constant traffic. All of the neighboring store's employees watch for cachers and love to bust 'em!

 

Three are ammo boxes on the edge of corporate parking lots, where the owner can see you from his office window. Gotta get one of them during business hours without being seen to log it, and the whole building watches and calls the owner if a geocacher is seen trying to sneak in. You would not believe some of the disguises geocachers have concocted to get this one!

 

One is a toy store with a scrolling sign - you watch the sign long enough and it will scroll coords to the next stage, for all the world to see (most geocachers miss it because it's so unexpected!)

 

I did a multi this weekend where one stage of a multi is a picture in an art gallerywindow - with the geocaching logo and coords to the next stage painted on it... again, geocachers spend lots of time scouring the parking lot and building face, much to the amusement of the owner inside!

 

I believe that the more the public knows about our game the less problems we'll have, and as the Public Information Contact for the AGA spend quite a lot of my time promoting and advertising the game. Stealth, to me, really only comes into play when the cache should not be there!

Edited July 12, 2005 by NatureFish

[+Greymane]

I begrudge law enforcement for this. (CLIP)

 

It is the trained professionals I expect more from. A bison tube is incapable of being used as an explosive much more powerful than an m80 which one can purchase from any fireworks stand. Seriously, why justify professional incompetence? A bison tube??????? Please.

Well, Mr. Expert, I am questioning your qualifications (or at least your judgement in making that statement). A little black powder in a small package is not a highly dangerous thing. BUT, there are a lot of other compounds that in a package the size of a bison tube can do a WHOLE lot of damage!

 

I don't pretend to know what qualifications you have or where you served, but I think you are sorely mistaken in this point. The average civilian bomb squad member does not have the career experience that many military EOD specialists get in a month. (Unless he/she has previous military experience.) (BTW, I do thank you sincerely for your service.)

[+Glenn]

I spoke with the local police and fire marshal on Saturday morning and met with the fire marshal for two hours today and everything is moving along just fine without this thread, <snip>

Sorry if you thought this thread was here to help law enforment with this. Most of the geocachers reading this topic are doing so to learn what happened and how they can avoid or limit something like this happening in their area, if possible. It is a great learing experiance and any advice you have with with working with law enforcement would be a great addition to this thread.

[+Bahamadiver]

I can't find the article, where is it and what is it that you guys are talking about? Sorry if it is real obvious....I am not that smart...

[+fly46]

Personally, I want to know how the fingerprinting is going.. I know a lot of cachers who cache in groups and I bet half the cachers that found this cache never ever touched it.

 

As for the cache in question... It was found by quite a few people before the incident occured... Note that it took quite a long time for it to be considered a threat.

[+wandererrob]

So, the only question I have is... Can the bomb squad now log the find?

[+FerretFinder]

Whoa people! First of all I want to apologize for starting this thread I wasn't thinking it was going to cause all this commotion. That's why I deleted the link yesterday! Anyway I tried to protect the innocent as my article didn't have any specific information in it. It was pretty general so that people wouldn't be able to figure anything out.

 

The purpose to this thread (after I read all the other threads about similiar happenings that are posted first) was to make people aware that when finding a cache to be careful and stealthful. The cache owner did everything that was necessary to place this cache. Marking it clearly and getting permission. We have a very good person in this area to make sure that caching goes smoothly and the correct people are aware of our game.

 

I am very glad that the authorities take caution in the public's saftey. They must do what they have to to protect us.

[+fly46]

So, the only question I have is... Can the bomb squad now log the find?

No.. Because they didn't sign the log.