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Found It! But...


JBAndersen
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Was looking forward to finding GM0809

it was, after all something I had never seen or heard about before, a small disk pinned into the end of a pipe!

 

And, there it was, laying on the ground right in front of me, about a hundred feet from where my GPSr was telling me to look for it.

95bf6019-7116-4b18-8887-119daf5e3f27.jpg

 

2368a73b-8fe5-4a76-821f-b2fb8845c945.jpg

Anybody seen anything like this before? On the disk is stamped "USC&G" on the top and "B.M." on the bottom. Very official looking, but not what you usually expect from the Coast and Geodetic Survey. Some kind of temporary benchmark, or something? Any ideas?

 

I logged it as destroyed, even though it was very intact, just a bit out of position.

 

jb

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Note that nearby third order horizontal station GM0807 designation RIO VISTA was set the same year. Its description includes mention of GM0809 designated NEAR RIO VISTA. GM0809 is a second order station.

 

That description calls GM0809 a USGS mark. Are you sure the stamping you saw was USC&G?

 

My speculation is that USGS improvised a station mark as part of a second order survey, and US CGS wanted a more permanent marker so they set their own disks in concret posts, then relied heavily on GM0809 to determine the position for their GM0807. They must have observed some other stations as part of the process, but not enough to make it second order.

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Very unusual. Can you get an even closer picture?

 

Another thing is quite unusual, and an interesting case. I did a proximity search and GM0807 RIO VISTA is nearby.

 

The 1954 description of GM0807 doesn't match the picture; the picture shows the disk having the same name but a date of 1978.

 

So, I look at the NGS page on GM0807 and find a description for a 1978 disk called RIO VISTA RESET. Same PID, different disk and different description. The 1954 history is gone too. Weird.

 

So, I click on the Geocaching page's "view original datasheet" and see the old NGS page for GM0807, which was replaced between 2000 and now to insert a 1978 disk.

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I logged it as destroyed, even though it was very intact, just a bit out of position.

 

Its is destroyed, that term refers mainly to the quality of the mark.

 

fyi

A mark can be in perfect physical condition but still be destroyed. Its geographical postion or elevation has been destroyed.

 

For instance this mark below, the post and disk are good but its destroyed. Totally useless for what it was intended, an Azimuth Mark...

ECHO-1.jpg

Edited by Z15
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Good catch BDT. First case I've noticed where a RESET had the same PID as the original. Is that standard practice when they reset a Tri station from the underground mark? It would make some sense, since it is in the same location to the best of their ability, as opposed to when a RESET is placed nearby for one that is getting destroyed by construction?

 

Really strange that 1978 changes show up so recently.

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... a small disk pinned into the end of a pipe!

 

2368a73b-8fe5-4a76-821f-b2fb8845c945.jpg

 

Anybody seen anything like this before?...

 

This looks like a property corner. I know it is not, as the USC&GS (and USGS for that matter) did not perform boundary surveys. (The USC&GS, USGS, & NGS were/are geodetic surveyors, not cadastral surveyors.) However I have found many property corners that have been set in a similar manner - a 1"-3" iron pipe, filled with concrete, with a small brass tag, set with a nail, stamped with the surveyor's license number. Property corners are now more commonly set with a plastic pipe cap.

 

As to what it is, I'd have to agree with Bill93's speculation that it is merely an improvised station, or traverse point. Essentially a temporary part of a larger survey to establish the geodetic position of a permanent mark. It would be similar to the small nails & shiners, cottons spindles, and other temporary survey paraphanalia that we see when searching for benchmarks.

 

Only the setting survey crew would know its intended purpose for certain, unless they left mention of it in their field notes. It is an interesting find for sure.

 

- Kewaneh

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Some strange things are used for "Bench Marks"

A witness post caught my eye as I was traveling along Colorado hiway 65.

Being the curious sort I stopped to check it out. I knew it was not in either the NGS or GC database, I have the marks in my laptop running on the passenger seat and nothing was showing in the area.

P7230013.jpg???????_C

P7230014.jpg???????_A

 

 

:) Can I log it??? :):):)

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Sometimes they get destroyed, and surveyors offices leave them in "destroyed" condition for a long time with out ever doing anything to them.

 

Back in January of this year, I found just such one, and was able to actually "claim it", mark it as destroyed through GC.com...

 

JZ0826

 

and now I carry it with me as a travelling benchmark. I know a few sticklers don't approve of this, but those of us who take the game for what it is...a game...are highly amused by the notion of a benchmark, an item so notorious for being stationary, belonging to a person, and being able to "log" it as a find. :anibad::anibad::(

 

When they are undoubtedly destroyed, with the permission of the county surveyors, an interested geocacher has every right to ask if they may have it, if they so desire.

Edited by 4leafclover
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> mark it as destroyed through GC.com..

 

More importantly, it is also marked destroyed in the NGS data base. I appreciate that you or someone made the effort to do this because it cleans up loose ends and prevents someone from wasting time in the future.

 

But as I asked before, if someone brings cache to a meeting does everybody claim a find on it?

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*snip*

 

But as I asked before, if someone brings cache to a meeting does everybody claim a find on it?

:anibad: wellllllllllllll :anibad:

 

honestly...

 

yeah...often they do.

 

there are event caches, and travel bugs, which is more what this is considered. There are many cachers who have no problem logging travel bugs simply because they were able to hold it at the event, or copied it's number down from in the cache.

 

Again...it is just a game. and in this case, I think the novelty of the trouble I went through to procure the benchmark, and the fact that my county surveyor's office now calls me to give me all destroyed marks, kind of overrides the whole "would you" factor. It's really all in fun now.

 

what other benchmarks out there have such stories...that;s what I like to think about...so I'm goofy. I admit it. :):(

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2368a73b-8fe5-4a76-821f-b2fb8845c945.jpg

JB,

 

Yours is certainly one of the most unusual marks I've seen, and I've been watching this thread with interest.

 

I'm not completely convinced you have found the station. Possibly, you might have found an intermediate point or reference point. Hard to say.

 

I'm real curious what determination the NGS makes. Please keep us updated on any other clues that might arise.

 

Really hoping to hear some more input from other benchmarkers and surveyors on this one.

 

Regards,

- Mitch -

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4leaf,

 

You ought to become a Forum Regular. You would fit right in with the other self appointed rule benders around here. Just don't get on their bad side though or the'll be like a Hell Hound on your Trail.

 

By the way, I took the liberty of having both your collected survey markers officially destoyed at NGS. Hope you wont mind!

 

;):):D:D:D:D

 

Rob

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4leaf,

 

You ought to become a Forum Regular.  You would fit right in with the other self appointed rule benders around here.  Just don't get on their bad side though or the'll be like a Hell Hound on your Trail.

 

By the way, I took the liberty of having both your collected survey markers officially destoyed at NGS.  Hope you wont mind! 

 

;)  :)  :D  :D  :D  :D

 

Rob

not in the least. If I knew how to do so, I would have done so in the first place.

 

How is marking it destroyed on the GC page "bending the rules". I clearly made it known that the county of Hamilton destroyed the mark in construction, and when it was no longer set in its original position, they gave it to me.

 

how much does it make everyone's skin crawl to know that one of them is now in CLEVELAND?!?!?!

 

ack, forsooth! the horror, the humanity! :D:D:D

Edited by 4leafclover
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4leafclover,

 

Of course this thread, when it appeared many moons ago...was greatly recieved. My Newest Aquistion.

 

As you skim down the page you will see that Zhanna is also a pround owner of a pretty nice mark. If we are ever in a situation where we might ask to have one....we just might be one of the lucky ones also.

 

Thank you for sharing that with us.

 

Shirley~

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4leafclover,

 

Of course this thread, when it appeared many moons ago...was greatly recieved. My Newest Aquistion.

 

As you skim down the page you will see that Zhanna is also a pround owner of a pretty nice mark. If we are ever in a situation where we might ask to have one....we just might be one of the lucky ones also.

 

Thank you for sharing that with us.

 

Shirley~

Just let me know...I'd be happy to send you the next one the surveyor's office calls me with. most in my area, and then some who have wanted them, have gotten them from me.

 

Soon, I may have to resort to ebay, or the garage sale. ;)

 

Seriously, I know a good many cachers/benchmark hunters who would love to own one, and what is wrong with owning a destroyed mark, especially when no one broke any laws, nor bent any rules, in procuring it?

 

I apologize if I have taken this thread off topic, but the question remains...if the mark is destroyed, as is pretty obvious from the pic in the opening post in this thread, where is the heresy in marking it destroyed, and possibly having fun with it?

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No problem in my mind having a destroyed benchmark disk with official permission like you did. Listing it as destroyed is the proper thing to do. It is best if it is listed as destroyed on both GC and NGS.

 

To get one listed as destroyed on NGS send the identification of the disk (PID number like XX1234 and the stamping on it), an explanation of how you got it, and if you can a picture of the disk separated from its original concrete mounting, mailto:deb.brown@noaa.gov

 

I have some opinions, as previously expressed.

1. We must not remove an official benchmark disk unless NGS agrees that its position is already in a destroyed condition, or someone in an official capacity authorizes it because of imminent destruction.

2. It is important to report the destroyed condition to NGS.

3. If you can mark the back or side of the disk using an engraver so it bears the PID and NGS destroyed log date that could avoid future confusion.

4. much less importantly I disagree over the rules for finds on the geocaching site (but that is only a game so I don't get too bent).

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