Should Numbers Dictate This Sport?

[+Mopar]

If it walks like a troll, and squawks like a troll; it's probably a troll.

There has been enough trolling, flaming, and violating forum guidelines to lock this thread many times. Perhaps the OP should do it himself while he still can.

The path he's traveling down has been travelled before, and usually ends up with having your posts moderated.

[+sbell111]

... but really I'm trying to ask why do people seem to prefer hiding micros in a Burger King drive thru than at a nie pcinic spot in a mountain meadow, hike doesn't have to be so.  But the value of the area itself should be what makes a GOOD cache. A good camping spot doesn't have to be in the middle of the woods, maybe a back road can get you right there.  This has nothing to do with people's ability as it does with what they want to search for.  Why such urban micros like Arby's cache?

There are many answers to your questions. I'll try to give some.

 

1) Do you know how far I would have to drive to find a mountain meadow?

 

2) People place caches where they are. If you hang out in the mountains, that's where you'll place your caches. If you dwell in the city, so will your caches. Urban is where the people are.

 

3) Not everybody cares about camping.

 

4) Bugs. Last week, I bumped into a cacher that I haven't really talked to since I had my accident. He told me that he had recently gotten pretty sick from a tick bite. He has now sworn off anything but urban micros until winter.

 

5) Different strokes.

 

6) Beef & chedder's better.

Edited July 6, 2005 by sbell111

[Jeremy]

Put it another way - You'll never find a convenience store at the top of Mt. Rainier.

[CreekFalls90]

Put it another way - You'll never find a convenience store at the top of Mt. Rainier.

Haha...true.

[+BlueDeuce]

I don't like Burger King or Arby's, it not my personal perference.

 

but I don't go around dogging people for building them or eating there.

 

See?

[uperdooper]

Put it another way - You'll never find a convenience store at the top of Mt. Rainier.

i thought they put a starbuck's there.

[CreekFalls90]

I don't like Burger King or Arby's, it not my personal perference.

 

but I don't go around dogging people for building them or eating there.

 

See?

Hey, I like those places. But not for caching. Caching is my sort of way of an outdoor adventure. C'mon, what do you get out of finding one in the Wal*Mart parking lot? I mean, if it was regular, you could read the log signs and swap stuff, but micros? No use in my opinion.

[+sbell111]

Dude. You've been playing this game for a minute and a half. There are caches available for you to find.

[Jeremy]

Put it another way - You'll never find a convenience store at the top of Mt. Rainier.

Haha...true.

Generally I don't really understand your beef then (pun intended).

 

This site doesn't promote ranking and you had to stumble upon any real ranking system that was hosted on another web site. For the most part people do not play for the numbers. The stats of individuals shows this as a very small minority has more than 100 finds under their belt. Only the more vocal, hardcore cachers run into the whole stats game but they are a vocal minority.

 

There are a lot of micros because they're convenient to place and easily accessible. Most people aren't hardcore hikers.

 

So think of micros and wal-mart caches as gateway drugs to the harder ones. After folks find enough micros they'll see their evil ways and move to the darkside. But that doesn't preclude you from going after the hard ones on your own until they do the harder ones.

 

In the meantime you can snort and sniff at the way others play their version of the activity, but please do it quietly. They're not going to change their ways any more than you will.

[+Mopar]

I don't like Burger King or Arby's, it not my personal perference.

 

but I don't go around dogging people for building them or eating there.

 

See?

Hey, I like those places. But not for caching. Caching is my sort of way of an outdoor adventure. C'mon, what do you get out of finding one in the Wal*Mart parking lot? I mean, if it was regular, you could read the log signs and swap stuff, but micros? No use in my opinion.

Gee, what do you think about virtuals then?

[+BlueDeuce]

I don't like Burger King or Arby's, it not my personal perference.

 

but I don't go around dogging people for building them or eating there.

 

See?

Hey, I like those places. But not for caching. Caching is my sort of way of an outdoor adventure. C'mon, what do you get out of finding one in the Wal*Mart parking lot? I mean, if it was regular, you could read the log signs and swap stuff, but micros? No use in my opinion.

You don't have to get anything from caching there. If you find a type of cache you don't like, then good! avoid them.

 

Just don't paint every cache/micro/1/1 with the same brush.

[+woof n lulu]

I don't like Burger King or Arby's, it not my personal perference.

 

but I don't go around dogging people for building them or eating there.

 

See?

Hey, I like those places. But not for caching. Caching is my sort of way of an outdoor adventure. C'mon, what do you get out of finding one in the Wal*Mart parking lot? I mean, if it was regular, you could read the log signs and swap stuff, but micros? No use in my opinion.

Gee, what do you think about virtuals then?

Oy vey Mopar!!!!!!!!! Dont get him started again...

[+AuntieWeasel]

So think of micros and wal-mart caches as gateway drugs to the harder ones.

Okay, now, that's funny! I think the truth may be the other way 'round, but I don't care. If it's funny, it floats...

[CreekFalls90]

Why don't I ever get these jokes about me? It's like they're in another language!!

[+BlueDeuce]

Why don't I ever get these jokes about me? It's like they're in another language!!

Oh, ease up there buddy.

 

The problem is coming here and expecting results/change with the Lame cache issue.

[CreekFalls90]

Why don't I ever get these jokes about me? It's like they're in another language!!

Oh, ease up there buddy.

 

The problem is coming here and expecting results/change with the Lame cache issue.

You totally lost me

[+BlueDeuce]

Why don't I ever get these jokes about me? It's like they're in another language!!

Oh, ease up there buddy.

 

The problem is coming here and expecting results/change with the Lame cache issue.

You totally lost me

Ok.

 

You: I hate Lame caches

 

Us: yeah, ok, us too. so?

Edited July 6, 2005 by BlueDeuce

[+woof n lulu]

tubular dude!

[uperdooper]

[+Mopar]

Why don't I ever get these jokes about me? It's like they're in another language!!

Oh, ease up there buddy.

 

The problem is coming here and expecting results/change with the Lame cache issue.

You totally lost me

Ya know what's funny?

 

I'm willing to bet a majority of people posting here actually prefer the same type of caching you do (me included), but we defend the rights of ourselves and others to enjoy different types of caches.

Last week I was trapped in a hotel in another state without a car for a few hours. I got in contact with a local cacher who came and picked me up and we spent the next few hours doing about 20 urban micos. Most were probably lame, but I was having too much fun to care. And isn't that a part of geocaching too?

 

PS: I spent the weekend with the same geocacher doing a bunch of high terrain caches, and had just as much fun.

Edited July 6, 2005 by Mopar

[+BlueDeuce]

Most were probably lame, but I was having too much fun to care.

 

exactly, and my new tag line.

[+El Diablo]

I don't like Burger King or Arby's, it not my personal perference.

 

but I don't go around dogging people for building them or eating there.

 

See?

Hey, I like those places. But not for caching. Caching is my sort of way of an outdoor adventure. C'mon, what do you get out of finding one in the Wal*Mart parking lot? I mean, if it was regular, you could read the log signs and swap stuff, but micros? No use in my opinion.

You might want to get the feel for this before you start to judge others. I see the first and only cache that you placed was in a bright yellow can in the open?

I'd rather hunt for a Wal-Mart cache. Also you have one find, so you may be a little early to be a judge on what makes a good cache.

 

Hang in there and we'll teach you how to be a good cacher.

 

El Diablo

[+rjb43nh]

uperdooper, you hit the nail on the head with your last post. Can't be a troll, that implies intent!

[CreekFalls90]

I don't like Burger King or Arby's, it not my personal perference.

 

but I don't go around dogging people for building them or eating there.

 

See?

Hey, I like those places. But not for caching. Caching is my sort of way of an outdoor adventure. C'mon, what do you get out of finding one in the Wal*Mart parking lot? I mean, if it was regular, you could read the log signs and swap stuff, but micros? No use in my opinion.

You might want to get the feel for this before you start to judge others. I see the first and only cache that you placed was in a bright yellow can in the open?

I'd rather hunt for a Wal-Mart cache. Also you have one find, so you may be a little early to be a judge on what makes a good cache.

 

Hang in there and we'll teach you how to be a good cacher.

 

El Diablo

By the way, it's not yellow. If you looked for it, you'd wish it was.

[+RainbowCache]

Why don't I ever get these jokes about me? It's like they're in another language!!

Oh, ease up there buddy.

 

The problem is coming here and expecting results/change with the Lame cache issue.

You totally lost me

Ya know what's funny?

 

I'm willing to bet a majority of people posting here actually prefer the same type of caching you do (me included), but we defend the rights of ourselves and others to enjoy different types of caches.

Last week I was trapped in a hotel in another state without a car for a few hours. I got in contact with a local cacher who came and picked me up and we spent the next few hours doing about 20 urban micos. Most were probably lame, but I was having too much fun to care. And isn't that a part of geocaching too?

 

PS: I spent the weekend with the same geocacher doing a bunch of high terrain caches, and had just as much fun.

Excellent, Mopar!

 

But have you logged any of those caches?

[+El Diablo]

I don't like Burger King or Arby's, it not my personal perference.

 

but I don't go around dogging people for building them or eating there.

 

See?

Hey, I like those places. But not for caching. Caching is my sort of way of an outdoor adventure. C'mon, what do you get out of finding one in the Wal*Mart parking lot? I mean, if it was regular, you could read the log signs and swap stuff, but micros? No use in my opinion.

You might want to get the feel for this before you start to judge others. I see the first and only cache that you placed was in a bright yellow can in the open?

I'd rather hunt for a Wal-Mart cache. Also you have one find, so you may be a little early to be a judge on what makes a good cache.

 

Hang in there and we'll teach you how to be a good cacher.

 

El Diablo

By the way, it's not yellow. If you looked for it, you'd wish it was.

Not yellow now because you went back and changed it. See...you do learn as you go. Just rebember God gave you 2 ears and 2 eyes, and one mouth. That way you can do twice as much listening and watching than talking.

 

El Diablo

[+Mopar]

Excellent, Mopar!

 

But have you logged any of those caches?

One troll per thread, thank you!

[+Moose Mob]

<snip>

Last week I was trapped in a hotel in another state without a car for a few hours. I got in contact with a local cacher who came and picked me up and we spent the next few hours doing about 20 urban micos. Most were probably lame, but I was having too much fun to care. And isn't that a part of geocaching too?

 

PS: I spent the weekend with the same geocacher doing a bunch of high terrain caches, and had just as much fun.

I suppose it was 105 outside and you encountered Rattlesnakes.

 

OT: This thread is running on and on. It would seem that stubborness will prevent the point from getting across.

[CreekFalls90]

I don't like Burger King or Arby's, it not my personal perference.

 

but I don't go around dogging people for building them or eating there.

 

See?

Hey, I like those places. But not for caching. Caching is my sort of way of an outdoor adventure. C'mon, what do you get out of finding one in the Wal*Mart parking lot? I mean, if it was regular, you could read the log signs and swap stuff, but micros? No use in my opinion.

You might want to get the feel for this before you start to judge others. I see the first and only cache that you placed was in a bright yellow can in the open?

I'd rather hunt for a Wal-Mart cache. Also you have one find, so you may be a little early to be a judge on what makes a good cache.

 

Hang in there and we'll teach you how to be a good cacher.

 

El Diablo

By the way, it's not yellow. If you looked for it, you'd wish it was.

Not yellow now because you went back and changed it. See...you do learn as you go. Just rebember God gave you 2 ears and 2 eyes, and one mouth. That way you can do twice as much listening and watching than talking.

 

El Diablo

I guess I would have to agree with that, hey El Diablo, I don't want this to draw anything off topic but I was reading your magazine thing online and I think it's a good step in the right direction, contrary to what I've been fighting about for the lat 12-13 hours on here. Your magazine is what I'm looking for in this sport, a step ahead. Good Job!

[+Mopar]

I don't like Burger King or Arby's, it not my personal perference.

 

but I don't go around dogging people for building them or eating there.

 

See?

Hey, I like those places. But not for caching. Caching is my sort of way of an outdoor adventure. C'mon, what do you get out of finding one in the Wal*Mart parking lot? I mean, if it was regular, you could read the log signs and swap stuff, but micros? No use in my opinion.

You might want to get the feel for this before you start to judge others. I see the first and only cache that you placed was in a bright yellow can in the open?

I'd rather hunt for a Wal-Mart cache. Also you have one find, so you may be a little early to be a judge on what makes a good cache.

 

Hang in there and we'll teach you how to be a good cacher.

 

El Diablo

By the way, it's not yellow. If you looked for it, you'd wish it was.

Not yellow now because you went back and changed it. See...you do learn as you go. Just rebember God gave you 2 ears and 2 eyes, and one mouth. That way you can do twice as much listening and watching than talking.

 

El Diablo

Now maybe the "expert" on quality geocaching will learn that "finding" a cache you hid is lamer then any micro!

 

July 4 by Team AlphaOmega (3 found)

This is Matt, formerly CreekFalls90, I changed the cache and is now a painted coffee can to its background so now not as blatant to the eye, but the coordinates will get you there. Good luck!

Took the rest of the team, found it without much problems.

[+El Diablo]

[El Diablo

I guess I would have to agree with that, hey El Diablo, I don't want this to draw anything off topic but I was reading your magazine thing online and I think it's a good step in the right direction, contrary to what I've been fighting about for the lat 12-13 hours on here. Your magazine is what I'm looking for in this sport, a step ahead. Good Job!

I'm glad you enjoyed it. My advice to you is stop fighting a battle that you know so little about. Your first cache was put into an area that cachers love. Your on the right track. Now stop, listen, and learn. You have the makings to be a great cacher.

 

El Diablo

[+PeachyPA]

I don't like Burger King or Arby's, it not my personal perference.

 

but I don't go around dogging people for building them or eating there.

 

See?

Hey, I like those places. But not for caching. Caching is my sort of way of an outdoor adventure. C'mon, what do you get out of finding one in the Wal*Mart parking lot? I mean, if it was regular, you could read the log signs and swap stuff, but micros? No use in my opinion.

You might want to get the feel for this before you start to judge others. I see the first and only cache that you placed was in a bright yellow can in the open?

I'd rather hunt for a Wal-Mart cache. Also you have one find, so you may be a little early to be a judge on what makes a good cache.

 

Hang in there and we'll teach you how to be a good cacher.

 

El Diablo

By the way, it's not yellow. If you looked for it, you'd wish it was.

Your cache container may not now be yellow, but I hope you washed it out thoroughly with bleach. Coffee cans sometimes attract animals due to the lingering fragrance of ground coffee.

 

Not all of us are capable of doing Quest Master type caches. I did one in February in the snow for my 100th cache. Fortunately, I was accompanied by more experienced cachers and our search was successful.

 

This activity is for folks of all physical abilities and interests. If folks like looking for micros, so be it. If you don't, just leave them off your "to do" list. It is as simple as that.

 

Now, go out and find 22 more caches to see how others do it.

Edited July 6, 2005 by PeachyPA

[+Stunod]

I don't like Burger King or Arby's, it not my personal perference.

 

but I don't go around dogging people for building them or eating there.

 

See?

Hey, I like those places. But not for caching. Caching is my sort of way of an outdoor adventure. C'mon, what do you get out of finding one in the Wal*Mart parking lot? I mean, if it was regular, you could read the log signs and swap stuff, but micros? No use in my opinion.

You might want to get the feel for this before you start to judge others. I see the first and only cache that you placed was in a bright yellow can in the open?

I'd rather hunt for a Wal-Mart cache. Also you have one find, so you may be a little early to be a judge on what makes a good cache.

 

Hang in there and we'll teach you how to be a good cacher.

 

El Diablo

By the way, it's not yellow. If you looked for it, you'd wish it was.

Not yellow now because you went back and changed it. See...you do learn as you go. Just rebember God gave you 2 ears and 2 eyes, and one mouth. That way you can do twice as much listening and watching than talking.

 

El Diablo

Now maybe the "expert" on quality geocaching will learn that "finding" a cache you hid is lamer then any micro!

 

July 4 by Team AlphaOmega (3 found)

This is Matt, formerly CreekFalls90, I changed the cache and is now a painted coffee can to its background so now not as blatant to the eye, but the coordinates will get you there. Good luck!

Took the rest of the team, found it without much problems.

Edited July 6, 2005 by Stunod

[CreekFalls90]

I don't like Burger King or Arby's, it not my personal perference.

 

but I don't go around dogging people for building them or eating there.

 

See?

Hey, I like those places. But not for caching. Caching is my sort of way of an outdoor adventure. C'mon, what do you get out of finding one in the Wal*Mart parking lot? I mean, if it was regular, you could read the log signs and swap stuff, but micros? No use in my opinion.

You might want to get the feel for this before you start to judge others. I see the first and only cache that you placed was in a bright yellow can in the open?

I'd rather hunt for a Wal-Mart cache. Also you have one find, so you may be a little early to be a judge on what makes a good cache.

 

Hang in there and we'll teach you how to be a good cacher.

 

El Diablo

By the way, it's not yellow. If you looked for it, you'd wish it was.

Not yellow now because you went back and changed it. See...you do learn as you go. Just rebember God gave you 2 ears and 2 eyes, and one mouth. That way you can do twice as much listening and watching than talking.

 

El Diablo

Now maybe the "expert" on quality geocaching will learn that "finding" a cache you hid is lamer then any micro!

 

July 4 by Team AlphaOmega (3 found)

This is Matt, formerly CreekFalls90, I changed the cache and is now a painted coffee can to its background so now not as blatant to the eye, but the coordinates will get you there. Good luck!

Took the rest of the team, found it without much problems.

actually "morpar" i'm in a team now....imagine that...i mean my new screen name is team, but hey!, it would only take a brain to deduce that..(im sorry, i hate this constant shots at me) the other members, if u can indeed read, found it, i tagged along behind, because i infact changed it a week after it came out. Yellow or not, these people who find it have trouble it's not sitting in plain daylight. of course you would know since you've been there. Maybe you need to check your facts before you use them. (cough cough)

[+PeachyPA]

CreekFalls, or Team Alpha Omega, my suggestion is that you should go out and find 25 to 30 more different types of caches then come back and discuss this further.

[+Mopar]

<snip>

Last week I was trapped in a hotel in another state without a car for a few hours. I got in contact with a local cacher who came and picked me up and we spent the next few hours doing about 20 urban micos. Most were probably lame, but I was having too much fun to care. And isn't that a part of geocaching too?

 

PS: I spent the weekend with the same geocacher doing a bunch of high terrain caches, and had just as much fun.

I suppose it was 105 outside and you encountered Rattlesnakes.

 

OT: This thread is running on and on. It would seem that stubborness will prevent the point from getting across.

No, MUCH hotter!

 

 

And by rattlesnakes do ya mean this cute, cuddly little fella?

 

[CreekFalls90]

CreekFalls, or Team Alpha Omega, my suggestion is that you should go out and find 25 to 30 more different types of caches then come back and discuss this further.

And, may I ask, how would that even change the opinion? Is it not true that if you find 800 you can find 900? No matter how many I have found, would it not be true that if you can think and have a GPS and have the ability to get to the geocache, you can find geocaches. Tonite has just proved to me that peopel are just as closed minded as I could ever imagine. Just because you've found 200, does that mean your any better of a geocacher than me? I'm all for team geocaching. Maybe like a race or soemthing, to prove who is the best geocachers, and whether numbers TRULY matter in this game of outdoors skill that has no place for micros in wal*mart parking lot.

[+Renegade Knight]

Real Geocachers don't die, they just sign the log RIP and move on.

 

That sucked.

 

There are no Micro's in Heaven.

 

In Hell all the caches are easy. Everbody's had them.

 

Real Geocachers Don't Die, they just TNLNSL.

 

Still not good.

 

Real Geocachers write Haiku.

 

This isn't easy.

 

Real Geocachers do it in the dirt.

 

Real Geocachers do in the mud.

 

Real Geocachers do it under your nose.

[CreekFalls90]

<snip>

Last week I was trapped in a hotel in another state without a car for a few hours. I got in contact with a local cacher who came and picked me up and we spent the next few hours doing about 20 urban micos. Most were probably lame, but I was having too much fun to care. And isn't that a part of geocaching too?

 

PS: I spent the weekend with the same geocacher doing a bunch of high terrain caches, and had just as much fun.

I suppose it was 105 outside and you encountered Rattlesnakes.

 

OT: This thread is running on and on. It would seem that stubborness will prevent the point from getting across.

No, MUCH hotter!

 

 

And by rattlesnakes do ya mean this cute, cuddly little fella?

 

WOW, 105? SO WHAT?!

 

It doesn't matter how far you've got, it matter how much farther you can go.

[Pipanella]

Why don't I ever get these jokes about me? It's like they're in another language!!

Oh, ease up there buddy.

 

The problem is coming here and expecting results/change with the Lame cache issue.

You totally lost me

Ya know what's funny?

 

I'm willing to bet a majority of people posting here actually prefer the same type of caching you do (me included), but we defend the rights of ourselves and others to enjoy different types of caches.

Last week I was trapped in a hotel in another state without a car for a few hours. I got in contact with a local cacher who came and picked me up and we spent the next few hours doing about 20 urban micos. Most were probably lame, but I was having too much fun to care. And isn't that a part of geocaching too?

 

PS: I spent the weekend with the same geocacher doing a bunch of high terrain caches, and had just as much fun.

That explains it just about as well as anything. Thank you, Mopar.

 

And CreekFalls90, why do you care what other people do, anyway?

[+Stunod]

Tonite has just proved to me that peopel are just as closed minded as I could ever imagine.

Yes you are.

[+Moose Mob]

Just trying to change the conversation. Too much angst, and not enough listening to those with experience.

[CreekFalls90]

Tonite has just proved to me that peopel are just as closed minded as I could ever imagine.

Yes you are.

I'm sorry, but I really can't take you seriously with your icon. I laugh everytime I see it, that comment might of phased me if I didn't see someone in that costume typing that to me.

[+Mopar]

July 4 by Team AlphaOmega (3 found)

This is Matt, formerly CreekFalls90, I changed the cache and is now a painted coffee can to its background so now not as blatant to the eye, but the coordinates will get you there. Good luck!

Took the rest of the team, found it without much problems.

actually "morpar" i'm in a team now....imagine that...i mean my new screen name is team, but hey!, it would only take a brain to deduce that..(im sorry, i hate this constant shots at me) the other members, if u can indeed read, found it, i tagged along behind, because i infact changed it a week after it came out. Yellow or not, these people who find it have trouble it's not sitting in plain daylight. of course you would know since you've been there. Maybe you need to check your facts before you use them. (cough cough)

I saw that "creekfills90", and I stand by my opinion that in 4yrs of caching MOST of your peers (Guys like Questmaster) would consider claiming a find on a cache you hid, no matter if it was a different team member, extremely lame. Many would label you a cheater. But then, since the numbers don't matter, why log a find at all? Why not a note?

Edited July 6, 2005 by Mopar

[+BlueDeuce]

and whether numbers TRULY matter in this game of outdoors skill that has no place for micros in wal*mart parking lot.

Not according to gc.com. Oh crap, now he's going to take that and run with it.

 

whether numbers TRULY matter in this game

Wait a minute, wasn't that your whole premise? Edited July 6, 2005 by BlueDeuce

[+El Diablo]

Come on people...we have spent 4 pages arguing with a kid. Let's put an end to this.

 

El Diablo

[+PeachyPA]

CreekFalls, or Team Alpha Omega, my suggestion is that you should go out and find 25 to 30 more different types of caches then come back and discuss this further.

And, may I ask, how would that even change the opinion? Is it not true that if you find 800 you can find 900? No matter how many I have found, would it not be true that if you can think and have a GPS and have the ability to get to the geocache, you can find geocaches. Tonite has just proved to me that peopel are just as closed minded as I could ever imagine. Just because you've found 200, does that mean your any better of a geocacher than me? I'm all for team geocaching. Maybe like a race or soemthing, to prove who is the best geocachers, and whether numbers TRULY matter in this game of outdoors skill that has no place for micros in wal*mart parking lot.

Actually, I found my first seven caches without a GPS unit.

 

The point is, according to your forum title, that it is not about the numbers. It is about the level of interest one wants to put into this activity or the physical capability of the cacher and what s/he can accomplish.

[+ohgrl]

Is there a group that hates micros? I wanna join.

Yes, but they get teased a lot.

But, atleast they are REAL geocachers.

I am a REAL cacher! I said it once, and I will say it again...going after micros does not make you a lame cacher! Oh wait...I am a lame (as in gimp) cacher...but I am still a real cacher, one who has taken a new outlook on urban micros since becoming lame/gimpy...

[uperdooper]

Tonite has just proved to me that peopel are just as closed minded as I could ever imagine.

Yes you are.

I'm sorry, but I really can't take you seriously with your icon. I laugh everytime I see it, that comment might of phased me if I didn't see someone in that costume typing that to me.

the poster in the chicken outfit just happens to be one of the moderators in these forums. i'd be very careful.

[+PeachyPA]

Edited July 6, 2005 by PeachyPA