What Ever Happened To Trading Fairly?

July 2, 2005

One of our caches is (was!) a TB motel. We started it out with 12 TB's. There are now NONE in the box. The only thing left in the box was an American flag. Whatever happened to trading fairly? Suffice it to say that our TB motel is now just another junk box full of dollar store garbage that hopefully will appeal to someone.

Then there's the TB's that just fall off the face of the earth. What's up with that? People take them and don't log them out or into another cache. Obviously the idea is to make TB's ugly so no one will want to keep them! I've had to email several cachers who have held my cute TB's way to long (3 months or more!), asking them to move them on soon. Some have never even given the courtesy of a response and are STILL holding them!

We enjoy geocaching, but as with any activity, there's always a rotten apple or two in the bunch.

Trade even, trade up, trade fair!!!! Help keep this a fun sport for everyone!

Thanks for letting me vent.

EdDee

2.5k · July 2, 2005

ONCE AGAIN. TRAVEL BUGS ARE NOT TRADE ITEMS.

Now that that's off my chest... I've been informed that I'm not allowed to tell cachers to 'get over it' so I won't. But I will tell you that so long as you expect a lot, you'll always be dissapointed.

2.6k · July 2, 2005

One of our caches is (was!) a TB motel. We started it out with 12 TB's. There are now NONE in the box.

Excellent! The last place a dozen TB's should be is sitting in a box somewhere.

2.4k · July 2, 2005

I agree with the Weasel, where's the problem? There were 12 bugs there, and now they're traveling. They are TRAVEL bugs, not "sit in your cache to stoke your ego" bugs.

July 2, 2005

Your hotel guests ran out on the bill eh?

22k · July 2, 2005

ONCE AGAIN. TRAVEL BUGS ARE NOT TRADE ITEMS.

Worth repeating.

July 2, 2005

Obviously they were expecting that when you took a TB you would leave a TB. Which sounds resonable to me.

Michelle

Edited July 2, 2005 by Dave and Michelle

3.8k · July 2, 2005

...Thanks for letting me vent.
EdDee

Have a nice day. :anitongue: :rolleyes:

July 2, 2005

Thank you Michelle. That's exactly what I expected! To the rest of you... whatever! We obviously all don't look at it from the same perspective. But thanks for your thoughtful input!

EdDee

2.6k · July 2, 2005

Obviously they were expecting that when you took a TB you would leave a TB. Which sounds resonable to me.

Which would result in twelve TB's sitting in a box somewhere at all times, not moving, not attracting people to interesting places, and at risk for being muggled in one fell swoop. Sounds unreasonable to me.

As a TB owner, I wince when one of mine goes in a hotel. As a TB handler, I only put them into hotels that have a fast in-and-out rate by names I know (and I do check). As a cacher, I look at TB hotels for two things: a quick smiley on an unsuccessful day (hey, if it isn't easy to get to and find, it's not much of a hotel) and, if I trust it, a place to drop a bug when I'm not going near an 'actual' cache for a while. If there's a bug for me to take, that's gravy. There usually isn't.

22k · July 2, 2005

We obviously all don't look at it from the same perspective.

Yep, so now you know what to expect and you won't be so surprised that TBs come and go regardless of your restrictions to the game.

5.2k · July 2, 2005

Travel Bugs are meant to travel, not sit in a box. Get over it.

1.8k · July 2, 2005

Thank you Michelle. That's exactly what I expected! To the rest of you... whatever!

(Translation: I really only wanted people to respond if they agreed with me.)

Ain't nothin' you can do to make people follow your rules. As far as I'm concerned, there are far more important things to worry about...

July 2, 2005

We will agree to disagree. Move on and harrass someone else. I'm done.

July 2, 2005

I agree with most here.. bugs are meant to travel, and the risk of losing all those bugs at once if the cache gets muggled is even worse. I know if I owned a tb hotel and it got muggled I would feel like a real dipstick for everyone that owned those bugs...

2.6k · July 2, 2005

Something else occurred to me I'd never thought of in reference to hotels (I'm kinda math challenged). If you could get people to stick absolutely to a one-for-one rule, and you could maintain, say, six in the cache at all times, it would take a minimum of six visits for every TB to get grabbed and moved along.

Only, unless people were extraordinarily conscientious about looking up ahead of time which had been there the longest and only took the oldest one in the box, chances are each person would take the most interesting bug to replace the bug he left. So unattractive or uninteresting bugs would likely be passed over repeatedly. It would become positively Darwinian after a while. The Tomb of Bob's Ugly Boring Bug.

Merely an observation. Sooner or later, somebody always grabs the lot.

2.7k · July 2, 2005

It has been my observation that TB hotels with trade rules don't work. If a TB hotel needs trade rules to remain stocked then the owner should rethink the cache placement.

Successful TB hotels are usually those that are near places that see a lot of diverse travelers. For example, near airports or the intersection of interstate highways.

Also success of a TB hotel shouldn't be judged by the number of TBs that continually reside in the hotel. It should be judged by the number of TBs that the hotel has helped get in to the hands of cachers that helped the TBs get closer to their goals.

11.3k · July 2, 2005

I found a TB Hotel last night that had a trade-one-for-one rule. It is near an airport and does get a fair number of visitors. I didn't have a TB to trade, so I just logged the cache. However, I would have liked to grab one of the TBs to move it along somewhere else.

There is a TB Hotel out in my rural area and I just grabbed three TBs out of it since no one had visited that cache for three months and two of the TBs had been in the cache since last October! :anitongue:

I don't want my one-and-only TB to end up in a TB Hotel with 11 other TBs waiting to be moved on. :rolleyes:

2.4k · July 2, 2005

However, I would have liked to grab one of the TBs to move it along somewhere else.

If it would have gotten it closer to it's goals, you SHOULD have.

11.3k · July 2, 2005

Well, it was after 11:00 p.m. (after kayaking to a Chris Issac concert at Humphrey's By the Bay and all I had was my GPSr and my Palm. Plus, I was 30 miles from home . . . so I had no way of knowing which TB had been in the cache the longest, nor what the goals of any of the TBs were . . . :anitongue:

I'll be back down there tomorrow for a Lyle Lovett concert, so maybe I'll do a little research and grab a TB then.

Edited July 2, 2005 by idiosyncratic

6.5k · July 2, 2005

ONCE AGAIN. TRAVEL BUGS ARE NOT TRADE ITEMS.

Just wanted to see that repeated.

The problem is that not everyone does things that way. Some will drop a TB in and take out a trinket, the next person, know at TB isn't a trade item will just grab the TB. If this happens over and over the cache becomes depleted of pretty much everything (TB eats cache?).

Help fix the problem, TRAVEL BUGS ARE NOT TRADE ITEMS!, spread the word

July 3, 2005

ONCE AGAIN. TRAVEL BUGS ARE NOT TRADE ITEMS.

uh huh :anitongue:

July 3, 2005

ONCE AGAIN. TRAVEL BUGS ARE NOT TRADE ITEMS.

'K so... What are they exactly then? I'm currently holding two. One geo-coin which I intend to place in next week or two when we 'travel' out of our home area to do some caches. The other is a white Jeep TB which I intend to place in a cache also in the next week or two as soon as I get a chance to photograph it for entry into Jeep's TB contest.

I'm fairly new to the game so you tell me, am I doing something wrong here? I thought the idea with TB's was to take them and move them someplace else so that they could 'travel'. If I'm missing something here please let me know.

July 3, 2005

ONCE AGAIN. TRAVEL BUGS ARE NOT TRADE ITEMS.

Help fix the problem, TRAVEL BUGS ARE NOT TRADE ITEMS!, spread the word

Good to know. I actually wasn't aware of this and have actually left TBs at chaches b/c I had nothing to leave in their place. Is this clearly stated in any of the travel bug info at all? If not, perhaps it should be.

Knowing this now, I may be able to help more bugs along their way.

11.3k · July 3, 2005

ONCE AGAIN. TRAVEL BUGS ARE NOT TRADE ITEMS.

'K so... What are they exactly then? I'm currently holding two. One geo-coin which I intend to place in next week or two when we 'travel' out of our home area to do some caches. The other is a white Jeep TB which I intend to place in a cache also in the next week or two as soon as I get a chance to photograph it for entry into Jeep's TB contest.

I'm fairly new to the game so you tell me, am I doing something wrong here? I thought the idea with TB's was to take them and move them someplace else so that they could 'travel'. If I'm missing something here please let me know.

What they mean is that you don't have to "trade" to take a Travel Bug. If you find one, you can just grab it, if you adhere to the rule of moving it along, hopefully toward its goal.

Holding a Travel Bug for a couple of weeks is okay, but longer than that and you will get a little message to move it along, or if it is lost, contact the owner.

You do realize you are holding two of the most coveted typed of Travel Bugs, don't you? Lucky guy . . .

Edit to add appropriate quote

Edited July 3, 2005 by idiosyncratic

3.9k · July 3, 2005

I believe the OP has gotten the message. Lets all remember that we are talking to a fellow cacher. Criticism is a helpful tool. Being sarcastic and mean isn't.

Educate....don't ridicule.

El Diablo

11.3k · July 3, 2005

ONCE AGAIN. TRAVEL BUGS ARE NOT TRADE ITEMS.

Help fix the problem, TRAVEL BUGS ARE NOT TRADE ITEMS!, spread the word

Good to know. I actually wasn't aware of this and have actually left TBs at chaches b/c I had nothing to leave in their place. Is this clearly stated in any of the travel bug info at all? If not, perhaps it should be.

Knowing this now, I may be able to help more bugs along their way.

You can pick up a Travel Bug at a cache without leaving anything in trade, but if you are taking a trade item, you should leave a trade item, not a Travel Bug.

The next person who comes along won't leave anything in trade for the Travel Bug, thus depleting the cache of swag . . .

Once you have a TB in your possession and you log it in, you can see its page. Some have clearly-defined goals and if you can help them along, great. If you can't, just putting it in another cache and logging it in that cache gets it out there for someone else to grab and further its goal, if possible.

Edit again cause I can't type

Edited July 3, 2005 by idiosyncratic

July 3, 2005

do realize you are holding two of the most coveted typed of Travel Bugs, don't you? Lucky guy . . .

Lucky? You think it was luck? I guffaw at you. I smirk in your general direction. We have those TB's because of our considerable skill and rapier wit.

And, well, sheer, dumb luck. :unsure:

July 3, 2005

That's what I thought. I guess the yelling in big red letters made me question myself a bit. I did sense that WJTB's are in high demand but I really didn't know the same was true for geo-coins. We weren't seeking the coin when we found it but we took it because we've been planning to do some caches farther away from home anyway so it seemed like a good thing to move the coin along.

In fact, we found an unexpected TB in a cache with a note attached saying it wanted to go see some mountains. As we weren't planning on being near mountains anytime soon, we left it for someone else to move along. I assumed at the time this was the right thing to do and seems like I was correct.

ETA: What Sue said. :unsure:

Edited July 3, 2005 by joe gremlin

July 3, 2005

One of our caches is (was!) a TB motel. We started it out with 12 TB's. There are now NONE in the box. The only thing left in the box was an American flag. Whatever happened to trading fairly? Suffice it to say that our TB motel is now just another junk box full of dollar store garbage that hopefully will appeal to someone.

Out-of-towners needing a quick drop can be crucial to keeping a bug hotel populated. Making yours a three-stage multi may be keeping many casual visitors away.

-WR

11.3k · July 3, 2005

Good point . . . It never crossed my mind that a Travel Bug hotel/motel would be a Multi-cache . . . :unsure:

July 3, 2005

One of our caches is (was!) a TB motel. We started it out with 12 TB's. There are now NONE in the box. The only thing left in the box was an American flag. Whatever happened to trading fairly? Suffice it to say that our TB motel is now just another junk box full of dollar store garbage that hopefully will appeal to someone.

Out-of-towners needing a quick drop can be crucial to keeping a bug hotel populated. Making yours a three-stage multi may be keeping many casual visitors away.

-WR

Piggy backing on this:

If you really want a TB motel to remain populated, put it somewhere that has easy access and high traffic. One of the best ones I've seen in my area is just off an exit ramp from I-10. It's a major artery here in Tucson, everyone moving east/west from CA to Florida, including all the truckers (and truckers cache), pass by it. It gets huge traffic and loads of folks dump and grab TB because it's just so darned convenient. People can just pull off the freeway in the middle of their vacation and dump a bug.

It's also great for people wanting to launch a new bug. It won't sit there very long.

Just remember, travel bugs need to travel. People don't want bugs to sit in someone's motel. They want them to move. TB motels are great places for getting bugs moving, and dropping them in a reliable spot that will keep them going. But, be careful creating rules that make people feel that their bug is stuck in a TB prison.

--Chino

1.3k · July 3, 2005

I think the original poster is disappointed that this TB Hotel is not hosting any bugs.

I just wish my MIA travel bugs would reappear.

July 3, 2005

ONCE AGAIN. TRAVEL BUGS ARE NOT TRADE ITEMS.

'K so... What are they exactly then?

I always considered "trade items" to be things one takes/leaves as a token of/to the cache find to be kept or traded in another cache, while TB's are simply to be picked up and moved to another cache, not kept as a token of the cache find. Those that keep TB's as their trade are doing the TB owner an incredible disservice, but (as others have pointed out in other TB comment-postings) once you leave it you have no control over what happens to it. Some people take them because they don't know any better (novices, no doubt) while others take and just keep them (who knows why?) with no intention of ever moving them along.

I've read of cachers that collect TB's and never move them on, but never have these TB hoarders posted why they spoil the TB's sponsor's fun of seeing their TB travel by keeping the TB's to themselves.

July 3, 2005

You cachers are lucky to see more than one bug in a cache.I wait for a bug to show up in my area just to log it.I have never seen a T.B. hotel.Maybe I should start one.

July 3, 2005

Obviously they were expecting that when you took a TB you would leave a TB. Which sounds resonable to me.

Which would result in twelve TB's sitting in a box somewhere at all times, not moving, not attracting people to interesting places, and at risk for being muggled in one fell swoop. Sounds unreasonable to me.

As a TB owner, I wince when one of mine goes in a hotel. As a TB handler, I only put them into hotels that have a fast in-and-out rate by names I know (and I do check). As a cacher, I look at TB hotels for two things: a quick smiley on an unsuccessful day (hey, if it isn't easy to get to and find, it's not much of a hotel) and, if I trust it, a place to drop a bug when I'm not going near an 'actual' cache for a while. If there's a bug for me to take, that's gravy. There usually isn't.

there is a travel bug prison. it's a 5/5 cache and people put travel bug in it!!! :unsure:

2.5k · July 3, 2005

I guess the yelling in big red letters made me question myself a bit.

It comes into the forums at least once a month that someone put up a tb prison and lo and behold why don't people want to trade for travel bugs. I figured if I made it obvious, the OP wouldn't miss the point.

Plain and simple, tbs are meant to travel.. That's why they're "travel" bugs.

It's interesting what you find out when you read a cache page. First of all, there's nothing in the cache title that says it's a travel bug hotel, so if you're just going by title, you wouldn't know.

Then, the cache page clearly states If you take one Travel Bug, the expectation is that you will leave one travel bug. But, if you can move a Travel Bug along quickly, feel free to take one - which means to me that while it is highly *suggested* that you leave one to take one, you don't have to if you can help a bug along.

Then, there's a few logs that really explain some things:

November 24, 2004 by HaleGang (502 found)

Came to trade TBs. Took 2 of my own that have been here a while, and dropped off one. - okay, so the OP's gripe starts with a cacher having to do a recon mission on their own bugs.

November 26, 2004 by JustBastet (180 found)

Math sucks without a calculator! :unsure: With permission from the cache owner, grabbed some TB's that have stayed too long and will take them back home to WV with me. Nice hide! - Oh, look, the OP allowed people to violate the take one leave one "guideline"

January 16 by 46rkl (177 found)

This was a fun cache with a nice hiding spot for the final leg. Unfortunately I didn't read the sheet before I left the house and when my wife spotted the Packers TB she thought it would be a good idea to take it to Miami next weekend on her trip to try and get a picture at the Dolphins stadium. Anyhow, took a TB and didn't leave a different one. Sorry. Did leave an American flag. - wait.. Didn't I already say something about not reading the cache page? At least we know where the flag came from.

June 11 by Team Catahoula (63 found)

Team Catahoula would like to see if Roving Rover NJ could be moved along soon. He seems to have been there for some time. He would like to move south to the FT Worth, Texas area to visit his aunt. Thanks to all. - oh, look.. A posted note stating issue with the t1l1 thing...

June 19 by junglehair (1271 found) Found this one today after checking on my Joe Hoh Might Know cache nearby. Only two travelbugs in here, even though the page said there were 3. I decided to grab both of them since Team Catahoula posted a note asking that someone move Roving Rover-NJ along, and poor Bette Davis Eyes has been stuck in this cache since January. - and the recon continues.

Interesting once you can see the actual story and the OP's rant.

Looks to me like cachers did exactly what cachers are supposed to do - make sure travel bugs travel.

July 4, 2005

There was a topic recently about banning TB hotels, etc. I personally am opposed to too many rules (more rules=less fun) and there was comment in that thread that "If Travel bugs don't move, its not a TB hotel, its a TB prison" or something to that effect.

Then I read here in a post awhile back that a cacher happened upon a TB hotel (in the Chicago area?) when many TB were languishing because they were "ugly" or older or whatever. She escorted about nine of them home and distributed among her local area's caches. Most responses were very positive.

If you hotel is empty that must mean its a success then, the TB's got move along on their journeys.

There's a point somewhere in this prattling on........

July 4, 2005

I will be placing a T.B. Hotel in the next few days (Still need to get the white Jeep photos.), There will be no rules associated with it other than I'd like to see it be for T.B.s only.

My thoughts are as follows, if a bug sits in it too long (month or so?), I'll take it out and move it along, if it becomes empty, I'll go find a cache with a T.B. to place in the hotel.

I view it as maintainence. You own a traditional cache, you visit it when needed to "clean up". Similar to the low maintainence of a single family home. If you place a "hotel", the maintainence is more then a traditional cache as owning a hotel would invovle more maintaince then owning a single family home.

Just my 2 cents. I have peeves with cache owners who don't do maintainece on their caches. You place it, you own it, you take care of it :unsure:

22k · July 4, 2005

I'll go find a cache with a T.B. to place in the hotel.

But you will only remove bugs from other caches that you can assist in it's goal, right?

You're not just harvesting bugs because you like your cache to always have bugs in it, right?

July 4, 2005

I'll "harvest" bugs that have no set goal, if the hotel is empty and the harvested bug has no set goal other than to travel from cache to cache.

Or honestly if the bug has sat idle in another cache for months and needs to be rescued. The area that I live has some caches that aren't logged for months at a time, and some have bugs in them. My findings so far is that most bug owners would rather see their bugs moving, not sitting in less visited caches.

July 4, 2005

Geocaching has many aspects...the aspect I enjoy most is Travel Bugs. I added a Travel Bug Spa to my very large and very secure cache a few months ago. I've been blessed because the bugs have essentially been in balance. Some arrive, some leave and some are traded out.

You probably should look for a reason why your hotel doesn't attract bugs and why they appear to languish a long time. If you can find a solution, you'll enjoy the experience much more.

Good luck as an innkeeper.

1.2k · July 4, 2005

Just more good reasons not to have TB Hotels. :unsure:

July 4, 2005

I found a TB Hotel last night that had a trade-one-for-one rule. It is near an airport and does get a fair number of visitors. I didn't have a TB to trade, so I just logged the cache. However, I would have liked to grab one of the TBs to move it along somewhere else.

That happened to me recently, too. I was bummed I couldn't move one of the 5-or-so sitting TB's along. But it's a place that I may not be able to visit again unless I can get someone to go in with me, as I didn't feel safe going in alone. It was at a rest stop off the highway, in a spot right next to where all the truckers park and rest. As a woman going in alone, I wasn't sure if anyone was going to follow.

That said, I think everyone has the right to make the rules for their own cache (trade "one for one" if they ask), and if we don't like it, we log and move along. All caches are not created equal (thank goodness, as we have some good variety).

Travel bug hotels seemed like such a clever idea to me when I first started caching, but at this point, I'd personally prefer to find them in a traditional cache.

Most TB tags do state that they are not trading items, so it is surprising to me that so many cachers here noted they didn't realize this.

2.3k · July 4, 2005

Obviously they were expecting that when you took a TB you would leave a TB. Which sounds resonable to me.

Which would result in twelve TB's sitting in a box somewhere at all times, not moving, not attracting people to interesting places, and at risk for being muggled in one fell swoop. Sounds unreasonable to me.

Agree completely. There is a bug hotel near here that also has the take one leave one rule. It bothers me every time, because all the locals have already hit it. It gets pretty infrequent visits, and every month or two I run a "travel bug rescue mission" and trade out the bugs in the cache. I dread the day it's muggled again -- it has been done before.

And as for travelbugs, I'm an addict. I will go back to the same cache again and again if I can nab a geocoin or travelbug, just becuase I love 'em!

July 4, 2005

Slightly OT, but relevant!

so I had no way of knowing which TB had been in the cache the longest, nor what the goals of any of the TBs were . .

You done hit on my pet peeve - if a TB has a mission it needs an attached note stating that mission!

I have had great fun helping bugs achieve their goal - often planning a cache trip to another city because I have a bug that wants to go that way, or searching out a spot where a TB wants a picture made.

If a TB has no mission tag attached it's most likely gonna wander from cache to cache aimlessly.

When I find a TB in a cache, hotel or otherwise, I read the mission statement to see if I can help it along - if it has no mission statement (except for maybe geocoins) attached I am most likely gonna leave it.

I personally believe that few cachers can (will) run a successful TB hotel because to be successful they must be placed in VERY high-traffic areas - just off of a major interstate intersection, near an international airport, etc. and should be secure but fast and easy to find.

Beyond that, by placing a TB hotel you are committing to bug owners to be helpful; helping TBs along is, after all, the mission of a hotel! This requires extraordinary attention and dedication.

If you live in a sparsely cache-populated, low-traffic area you will only create a prison, regardless of your good intent.

Edit: Oh by the way, on TB rules - I ignore them, the TBs mission is all that counts!

Edited July 4, 2005 by NatureFish

2.1k · July 4, 2005

This is one of my favorite rants too -

Just put a log in a cache because it was missing - very strange just the log goes missing in a secure, clean, 2 quart jar.

So I go up there and find the cache is full of geo-junk. Was not prepared for that so have to go back. Will replace the whole cache to make it easy.

I try to put a mix of good swag in my caches. The dollar store has a lot of really good stuff. LED flashlights, carabiners, rescue whistles, etc. I get my supplies there too - pens and log books. So with all this inexpensive stuff around, and the general cost of being a geocacher, it really bugs me to find all the garbage in the caches I put out and the ones I find.

so there is my 2 cents on that one - thanks for the chance to rant again. It has been a long time since I have had a chance to trade anything in a cache. This used to be a fun part of caching - I won't trade for garbage.

Trade even or UP or NOT at all!!!

cc\

July 5, 2005

There's a TB hang out near us, that I think works nicely. All the locals know where it is, and many of the logs are notes people coming by repeatedly to rotate bugs. It's a good start point for bugs, because it's so well frequented.

July 5, 2005

LOL...you're gonna love the latest one...

Logged 3 days ago: Partylite Southwest style brass candle holder ($10+ value) exchanged for "Shoe Mitt" (FREE "shower cap" plastic shoe covers)

Edited July 5, 2005 by ZillahBillies

July 5, 2005

This is one of my favorite rants too -

Just put a log in a cache because it was missing - very strange just the log goes missing in a secure, clean, 2 quart jar.

So I go up there and find the cache is full of geo-junk. [sNIP]

Maybe the log went missing because it was the best thing in the cache to trade for.

What Ever Happened To Trading Fairly?

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