Remonumenting A Meridian Stone

[mapjunkie]

The First Guide Meridian East stone on the Nebraska-Kansas border will be remonumented later this month. Anyone here involved? Could be interesting in a very map-geekish sort of way. The article says there will be a chaining contest.

 

-Matt

[+gnbrotz]

I would encourage anyone who could get to this type of an event to take the time to do it. I attended a similar event in February of 2002.

 

I mentioned it in this thread. Unfortunately, the news links no longer work, but there is also a link to the benchmark page where my log gives some details of the day.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Hey I was just there.

 

POINT OF BEGINNING

 

I also recovered White Cloud Triangulation Station the same day.

WHITE CLOUD

 

This will give me a reason to go back.

I posted this somewhere last year in a topic of Initial Points.

 

This is the Iron Post on top of the Hill between the road and sign.

[StripeMark]

I'll be in Topeka on Friday....... I may have to run up there and check it out. It sounds very interesting.

[wister6813]

Thanks Mapjunkie for the heads up.

 

I'll be there.

[StripeMark]

Could someone tell me what the numbers on the commemorative disc stand for?

 

http://geotechinc.net/1GME.htm

 

The top of the intersecting points is "Nebraska T1N"

The bottom of the points is "Kansas T1S"

To the right is "R9E"

To the left is "R8E"

 

The NE quadrant says "31"

The SE quadrant says "6"

The SW quadrant says "1"

The NW quadrant says "36"

 

The coordiantes of this is N40 00 00 W096 27 49

 

Anything? Thanks!

 

-Stripe

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

"Nebraska T1N" TOWNSHIP 1 NORTH OF THE MERIDIAN

"Kansas T1S"TOWNSHIP 1 SOUTH OF THE MERIDIAN

"R9E"RANGE 9 EAST OF THE MERIDIAN

"R8E"RANGE 8 OF THE MERIDIAN

 

NE quadrant says,SECTION "31"

SE quadrant says,SECTION "6"

SW quadrant says ,SECTION"1"

NW quadrant says,SECTION "36"

 

TOWNSHIPS ARE 6 MILE SQUARE AS CAN BE.

TOWHSHIP LINES NUMBERED FROM 1 UPWARD.

COMMENCING AT THE BASE LINE AT INTERVALS OF 6 MILES WIDE,EXTENDING EAST AND WEST,PARALLEL WITH THE BASE LINE

 

RANGE NUMBERED FROM 1 UPWARD.

COMMENCING AT THE BASE LINE AT INTERVALS OF 6 MILES WIDE,EXTENDING NORTH AND SOUTH,PARALLEL WITH THE MERIDIAN

 

SECTION LINES ARE THE 1 MILE SQUARES.

EACH TOWNSHIP IS DIVIDED INTO 36.

 

SO YOU ARE IN TOWNSHIP 1 N 1 S THAT IS THE LINE 0 OR 40 00.000' THE BASE LINE.

AND 9 MI.X 6 MI. EAST=54 MILES EAST

AND 8 MI.X 6 MI. EAST=48 MILES EAST

? WHICH EQUALS A 6 MILE SQUARE.

 

WHICH IS HERE MORE OR LESS 40* 00.000' 96* 27' 49"

 

TOPOZONE

 

AND YOU ARE IN THE CORNERS OF SECTION 1,6,36,31 WHICH IS A TOWNSHIP CORNER.

 

THE INITIAL POINT

SHOULD BE AT T1N+T1S,R1N+R1S. 1,6,36,31. 40* 00.000' AND 48 OR 54 MILES FROM THE POINT IN DISCUSSION.

 

THE 9 AND 8 HAVE ME PUZZLED ARE YOU SURE IT IS NOT A 8 AND 8 E ?

OR 9 AND 9 E?

MY MAP SHOWS NO LINE ON THE RANGE AT EITHER 8 OR 9 E.

THERE IS A 1ST MERIDIAN EAST AND THE NEXT IS 95*.

 

THERE ARE WEST MERIDIANS STARTING WITH 1W......FROM I.P.

 

MAYBE THE MORE SCHOLARLY CAN STEP UP.

[evenfall]

No Geo, I think you did just fine. We have been over this many times. If anyone is still confused, it never hurts for people to use google and learn something for themselves. They could also use the search engine here to read all that has already been said as well.

 

Rob

Edited June 23, 2005 by evenfall

[StripeMark]

Sorry, I realized that the 4 quadrants were section numbers already. It was just the 4 points I had problems with.

 

But with the help of......

 

http://www.outfitters.com/genealogy/land/twprangemap.html

http://www.esg.montana.edu/gl/trs-data.html

http://www.kansasphototour.com/meridian.htm

http://www.pmproject.org/6pm.htm

 

I figured out that the Range 8E and 9E were 6-mile intervals East of the Sixth Principal Meridian.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

6TH PRINCIPAL MERIDIAN

 

 

This is a good link.

BLM BASE LINES AND MERIDIANS

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

I figured out the mystery on the 8E-9E.

 

While I a was at it.

The 1st Geographical Center is west about 65.2 miles.

66 MILES WOULD BE TOWNSHIP 11 WEST

 

Does any one know how many

GEOGRAPHICAL CENTERS THERE ARE?

1.?THIS ONE!

3.?

5.?

 

edit mistake on map.

Edited June 24, 2005 by GEO*Trailblazer 1

[sbrosemer]

I would like thank any geocachers that made it to the event on June 24, 2005.

 

The importants of this stone on the Baseline is that it marked the furthest west the General Land Office decided to survey before it started the dividing of Nebraska and Kansas into Townships and Ranges and then into Sections so that private sale and location were possible. The First Guide Meridian East line was the first Public Land Survey System lines run into KS and NE. This 1855 survey also corrected a serious error in the location of the Baseline made by Johnson the year before. The resurvey of the Baseline was commenced from the Cast Iron Monument on the West High Bank of the Missouri River, as shown in the great photo above. John C. Calhoun, Surveyor General for this Area, had already decided that from the Cast Iron Monument that our Deputy Surveyors would started the surveying of Kansas and Nebraska.

 

After the lines were run north and south and then east by Charles Manners (NE)and Joseph Ledlie (KS) from this First Guide Meridian East (1GME) stone, then Manners came back the following year to this stone (refered to then as the 60 Mile Corner), and extended the 40th Parallel 48 more miles west and then set the stone at the 6th Principal Meridian. That is why the 1GME stone is on the Range line between Ranges 8 and 9 East (8 Ranges East of the soon to be monumented 6th P.M. corner and 10 Ranges west of the Cast Iron Monument). Townships are number from the Baseline North (NE) or South (KS). That was June 11, 1856, not 1855 as shown on the BLM map above. BTW, both Manners and Ledlie were using Bert's Improved Solar Compass to determine their lat/long and to run their "true" lines. The compass was only used on overcast days!

 

So chronology is like this:

May 8, 1855 Charles Manners sets the Cast Iron Monument and starts west. Ledlie out west at the 1GME discovers the huge error in the Baseline.

May 21, 1855 Manners and Ledlie arrive back at Fort Leavenworth to await the return of Calhoun for instructions.

June 14, 1855 Manners starts the resurvey of the Baseline.

June 24, 1855 Manners sets stone at the 60 Mile corner with Ledlie.

June 28, 1855 Manners and Ledlie start surveying the 1GME North and South, respectively.

June 11, 1856 Manners sets the stone at the 6th P.M. by running 48 miles west from the 1GME stone. Ledlie goes South into Kansas and Manners into Nebraska to survey the 6th P.M.

 

From the timeline above one can see that the 1GME marker is as important as any of the other two.

 

Please go to: http://geotechinc.net/1GME.htm to email me should you have any questions. I hope that this is not more information than any one cares to know.

 

Steve Brosemer (sbrosemer)

Land Surveyor

Kansas Coordinator of the 1GME Event

Kansas Society of Land Surveyors

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

sbrosemer,

No,not too much for me, thank you for all the info.

We are looking for this kinda stuff to heighten our knowledge base.

 

I just wish I could have made it up.

I was just there pretty close.

 

Thanks again and welcome.

[StripeMark]

Thanks Steve!

 

Lots of great history there! It was the fist time I've seen a disc being placed.

 

I was surprised at how many people actually did show up though. I was expecting a few dozen at the most.

 

Thanks again!

 

I did have one nagging question though........ The NE/KS baseline is supposed to be at 40 degrees North, correct? Why would my GPS show the marker that was placed about 314.1 feet north of that point? My GPS showed 40 00 03.1 N +/- 7 feet. I heard Lynn (Linn ? Lin?) mention the same thing.

 

I also visited the 6th Principal Meridian 48 miles to the west. Placed on the disc, my GPS read 40 00 07.1 N +/- 7 feet. At that point the state line (base line) would be 719.4 feet south.

 

What's up with that? Or is the baseline not actually at the state border of 40 North?

 

-StripeMark

Edited June 28, 2005 by StripeMark

[+Black Dog Trackers]

sbrosemer -

 

Welcome to the benchmark hunting forum on Geocaching!

 

We appreciate professional surveyors participating here in this forum and explaining things to us. We're all in the process of learning, not only how to best hunt for survey marks and provide the most accurate and useful recovery reports, but also to learn as much lore about surveying as we can.

[boundsgoer]

I did have one nagging question though........ The NE/KS baseline is supposed to be at 40 degrees North, correct? Why would my GPS show the marker that was placed about 314.1 feet north of that point? My GPS showed 40 00 03.1 N +/- 7 feet. I heard Lynn (Linn ? Lin?) mention the same thing.

 

I also visited the 6th Principal Meridian 48 miles to the west. Placed on the disc, my GPS read 40 00 07.1 N +/- 7 feet. At that point the state line (base line) would be 719.4 feet south.

 

What's up with that? Or is the baseline not actually at the state border of 40 North?

Probably because 700+ feet is pretty good considering the methods used and equipment available 150 years ago.

 

That is why the GLO/BLM rules state that absent fraud the position of the monument holds over where it is "supposed" to be. Otherwise, the monument would move every time a more accurate method comes along.

 

General surveying principles hold that an original monuments position will prevail over bearing and/or distance.

 

Think about if your lot was first subdivided in 1930 with monuments set at each corner. In 1975 with the newfangled Electronic Distance Measuring (EDM) device I can measure more accurately than the transit and chain used in 1930 and determine the original monuments should be 0.3' west. In 2005 with my $50,000 GPS equipment I determine the monuments should really be 0.5' east.

 

I cannot move monuments just because I can measure more accurately than my predecessor. Think about the problems with buildings, improvements, etc. that can cause.

 

Up in the mountains west of where I am, if we find monuments within a foot where the plat says they should be, we are doing really good. Even a couple of feet is normal. A lot of these subdivisions were done in the 1960's and 1970's. They did the best they could given the methods, equipment and terrain.

 

So the state line is going to be the line as monumented, not necessarily as described.

 

There have been several lawsuits between states because of this.

 

Texas and New Mexico are arguing over a portion of thier common line which is a couple of miles from where it is "supposed" to be. Look in the area where Texas, New Mexico and Oklahoma come together. If I remember correctly, the boundary between Texas and New Mexico was supposed to be 103 degrees longitude. Where the surveyor determined the line to be was too far west and staked this line going south.

Edited June 29, 2005 by boundsgoer

[StripeMark]

So the "legal" state line would be the monument then and not actually at 40 degrees north latitude.

 

Thanks!

[sbrosemer]

Thanks to boundsgoer for the excellent reply to question concerning monuments vs. theoretical positions. This concept is English Common law that has been codified by most States, including Kansas and Nebraska. For instance, Kansas Statutes (19-1422) requires the following:

"First, Section and quarter-section corners, and all other corners established by the government survey, must stand as the true corners.

Second, They must be re-established at the identical spot where the original corner was located by the government surveyor, when this can be determined."

So knowing when a certain corner was established is necessary in order to determine the level of expected accuracy.

 

To those that wish to know the lat/long of the First Guide Meridian East stone, we found it to be: N40°00'03.8" W096°27'49.3"

[+BuckBrooke]

My understanding is that borders, such as the NM-CO border, are set by the monuments, and not by an arbitrarily measured lognitude line. As such, the Mason-Dixon stones being recovered recently by one of our own might be very important to establishing the PA-WV-MA border. Any word on that?

[holograph]

Wasn't the Mason-Dixon line retraced somewhat recently (in the last few decades?) I have vague memories of news reports.

[boundsgoer]

My understanding is that borders, such as the NM-CO border, are set by the monuments, and not by an arbitrarily measured lognitude line.  As such, the Mason-Dixon stones being recovered recently by one of our own might be very important to establishing the PA-WV-MA border.  Any word on that?

That is partially true. Some state borders were intended to be along a certain (not necessarily arbitrary) line of latitude or longitude. The discrepancy happens because the original surveyor did not get exactly on the line he was supposed to.

 

You a correct that the monuments themselves become very important because they mark where the line was established on the ground.

[sbrosemer]

A photo album of the June 24, 2005 Commemorative Event has been added to the First Guide Meridian East Event Home Page. Please follow the following link if you would like to view it: http://geotechinc.net/1GMEpa.htm

There is also a little about the Cast Iron Monument and the 6th P.M. (Initial Point) along the baseline between Kansas and Nebraska.