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Trashed Out Live Ammo


nfa

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I was caching this morning with my wife and son, and one of the caches we visited had a 9mm shell left in it as a regular trade-item...I trashed it out and checked the log...the geocacher described it in the took/left portion of their log (but they did not log onto the website).

 

Has anyone else run into someone leaving live ammo in caches as a trade item?

 

nfa-jamie

Edited by NFA
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Well, which is it? A live round or just the shell(inert casing, usually brass)?

 

Live rounds are of course a no-no, but I have no problem at all with a spent shell. They are no more harmful then any other little brass cylinder. A local cacher leaves a shell from one of those big, evil .50 caliper sniper rifles (You know, the ones 60 minutes claims can shoot down a plane from 2 miles away, but after 20 yrs of use by the military it's never shot one down? Nor has it ever been used to commit a crime or act of terrorism in the US. Yea, that one.)

They seem to be highly prized by other cachers.

 

BTW, only slightly off-topic: in some states, you need a permit to possess ammo. In Massachusetts for example, you need a permit to possess even the spent shells.

In other words, in Mass. you would need a permit to legally clean up after those sloppy hunters who leave spent shotgun shells all over the woods.

Edited by Mopar
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Every so often, It is not a big deal around here though, Just depends where you live I guess.

Some hunters will come across one and leave a note and might drop a round or two in the cache.

That's a good point. I haven't found ammo left by a muggle, but I have found booze, cigarettes, fireworks, and even marijuana! (just a little "roach")

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it's a live shell...I wouldn't have any problem with a spent sheel-casing being left in a cache, although in most cases that's pretty close to a used lottery ticket or expired coupon...

Good job trashing it out then. If they didnt log online it's possible they were not actually cachers and just trying to play along (like they are asked to do in the "you found it" note). If there is a profile here that matches the name in the logbook, I'd probably send them a polite email explaining why that's such a bad idea for a trade item. Do you have a way to safely dispose of it? Any shooting range should be able to handle it, or you could probably drop it off at the local PD.

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I've found live ammunition twice and kept it both times. Certainly a bad trade item, but it makes for a good conversation piece. I've found spent casings many times, as well. One that I found was a sniper round that someone saved from World War II, and it ranks among the top of my favorite items found in a cache.

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As was mentioned previously, some states require you have a gun permit to posess something as harmless as spent shells.

 

I quite often have my LTC on me so I can legally trash out these items should I come across them.

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The potential legal issue of CITOing out spent brass and shells in some states mentioned by Mopar and WH was being discussed relative to Massachusetts in in this thread not too long ago.

 

I wasn't thinking about this situation when I picked up the Brothers In Arms TB down in Connecticut - I did think about it later when I carried it back to New Hampshire with me. Based on the MA law, I don't feel comfortable bringing the TB down into MA, but given how close I am to the MA border, I wonder how responsible it is to leave this bug in a cache anywhere in NH which is close to the MA border. Some poor person without an FID or an LTC might pick it up and carry it down into MA and get into trouble.

 

Or would they?

 

Here's the TB:

01b2fc4e-50b7-4795-bc3c-22cd8dae627a.jpg

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I've come across a single instance of a complete cartridge left in a cache. It was a micro and the shell was a .22. I traded it out. No big deal.

 

I did find a .454 Casull key chain and made it into a TB. It was picked up by a Guardsman. He hasn't logged onto the site since Sept. '03. I hope he's alright--the Guardsman, I couldn't care less about the TB.

 

So, yeah, it happens. Just like food or other items that aren't a good idea. I trade them out and move on.

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I was checking on a cache that I had previously found and was located in the state forest where I work and discovered someone had left a baggie with 20+ rounds of live .22 ammo! YIKES! I removed it and notified the cache owner.

 

The "depositor" never logged the visit on GC.com but did leave a note in the cache. This was several months ago and I don't remember the user name. If I remember correctly, I tried looking up his profile with no luck.

 

We have inmate crews working all over our forest doing work like brushing along roads. This cache could have been discovered by these crews - not good.

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I was checking on a cache that I had previously found and was located in the state forest where I work and discovered someone had left a baggie with 20+ rounds of live .22 ammo! YIKES! I removed it and notified the cache owner.

 

The "depositor" never logged the visit on GC.com but did leave a note in the cache. This was several months ago and I don't remember the user name. If I remember correctly, I tried looking up his profile with no luck.

 

We have inmate crews working all over our forest doing work like brushing along roads. This cache could have been discovered by these crews - not good.

So what if it was found by a prison crew? What are they gonna do with a bag of .22 rounds, or any other ammo for that matter? Unless the inmate happens to find the gun that the ammo fits as well, the ammo does them no good. The pencil in the cache is a lot more dangerous. Heck, they could do more damage with a baggie of marbles. From a safety standpoint, knives in caches are about the only potentially "real" problem.

 

In some states there are (stupid) legal reasons not to leave ammo in caches, but mostly this is one of those rules that is more to appease the public perception of safety (just like the no knives rule) then anything else.

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"So what if it was found by a prison crew? What are they gonna do with a bag of .22 rounds, or any other ammo for that matter? Unless the inmate happens to find the gun that the ammo fits as well, the ammo does them no good."

 

Yep 20+ rounds of powder filled ammunition that you can pull apart with your teeth, plus a priming device that you can set off with whack form a spoon, inside a prison. Certainly nothing to worry about there. <_<

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"So what if it was found by a prison crew? What are they gonna do with a bag of .22 rounds, or any other ammo for that matter? Unless the inmate happens to find the gun that the ammo fits as well, the ammo does them no good."

 

Yep 20+ rounds of powder filled ammunition that you can pull apart with your teeth, plus a priming device that you can set off with whack form a spoon, inside a prison. Certainly nothing to worry about there. <_<

Zip Gun. A member of my famly has died from one of these. Some idiot had one in his tool box. My uncle was an auctioneer and this was an estate auction. He pikced it up, didn't even recognize it (how would you with no experience?) and it went off and he died. He was fairly young at the time. 30ish.

 

Overall though I'd put work crews into the 'trusted' catagory or they would not be on the work crew. I certainly have not seen the chain gangs of hardened criminals they show in the movies.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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One time, I found several live .22 rounds left in trade at a cache owned by a Boy Scout Troop and hidden at a regional Boy Scout Camp. Remembering back to when I was a Boy Scout, I can only imagine the problems that may have caused. ("Hey! Let's put them in the campfire and see if they blow up!")

 

I removed the bullets and noted my opinions and the "Cache Contents" guidelines in my online log.

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One time, I found several live .22 rounds left in trade at a cache owned by a Boy Scout Troop and hidden at a regional Boy Scout Camp. Remembering back to when I was a Boy Scout, I can only imagine the problems that may have caused. ("Hey! Let's put them in the campfire and see if they blow up!")

 

I removed the bullets and noted my opinions and the "Cache Contents" guidelines in my online log.

Hey, that reminds me of a story.

 

When I was a kid, the neighbor kid (it was always him!) found a 22 cartridge. He got that glint in his eye and put it on the ground and threw a big rock on it. I jumped just when he did. My theory was it couldnt' go up through the rock and hit me but if I left my feet on the ground it could.

 

It didn't go off. He threw the rock harder. I jumped higher. It didn't go off. Finally after about 4 tries it went off. Unfortunatly he wasn't hit and so learned no lesson in stupidity that day. Fortunatly I wasn't hit either. We never found the bullet.

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Yep 20+ rounds of powder filled ammunition that you can pull apart with your teeth, plus a priming device that you can set off with whack form a spoon, inside a prison. Certainly nothing to worry about there. <_<

Zip Gun. A member of my famly has died from one of these. Some idiot had one in his tool box. My uncle was an auctioneer and this was an estate auction. He pikced it up, didn't even recognize it (how would you with no experience?) and it went off and he died. He was fairly young at the time. 30ish.

 

Overall though I'd put work crews into the 'trusted' catagory or they would not be on the work crew. I certainly have not seen the chain gangs of hardened criminals they show in the movies.

Only one problem with both theories.

The inmates are searched before being returned to the prison. So they aren't getting the ammo into the prison.

Just an aside, I guess anything is possible, but pulling bullets with your teeth? I just tried pulling apart a .22 round with a pair of pliers while holding the round in my hand. Couldn't do it. Now, I've broken down ammo with the proper tools before, and even then it's not always easy. And setting off a 22 primer by whacking it with a spoon? Again, I'm not saying it's impossible, but not likely. See RK's story above about trying to detonate one by smashing it with a large rock.

In the movies, guns just "go off", and ammo explodes when jostled.

In the real world, modern firearms and ammunition are actually quite safe to handle and only go "bang" when loaded in a gun and the trigger is pulled.

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The outdoor shooting range I regularly frequent and compete at has a cache hidden within. When I found that cache there was an entire box of EVIL 7.62X39 ammo. I made sure I promptly removed the offensive trade item and later "destroyed it". :P For future reference, if caching in northern Idaho and you leave or find any of the following calibers, please let me know so I can remove and destroy as well: 9mm, 357mag, 40s&w, 45acp,.... :P

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The outdoor shooting range I regularly frequent and compete at has a cache hidden within. When I found that cache there was an entire box of EVIL 7.62X39 ammo. I made sure I promptly removed the offensive trade item and later "destroyed it". :P For future reference, if caching in northern Idaho and you leave or find any of the following calibers, please let me know so I can remove and destroy as well: 9mm, 357mag, 40s&w, 45acp,.... :P

Man... I never did find ammo I could actually use.

 

To add to Mopars safety story. When taking a shooting class we went to the Police shooting range. Live rounds were all over the grounds. I picked one up and asked the officer teaching the class what I should do with it. He said toss it back down and don't worry about it, it's not a problem.

 

I'll still trash out live ammo in caches though. It's a perception thing.

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.22 shells are pretty small, could be easily missed in a typical "let's hurry up and get our shift over" strip search.

 

I have pulled them apart by hand before, took a while but it can be done with enough time.

 

Once, when I was a teenager, I saw in a hunting magazine an article about using an old aluminum arrow to make a .22 bullet holder. Cut the end off and the bullets slip inside. I cut the arrow with a hacksaw, slid a 22 shell in. There was a bit of a burr on the edge, so the shell wouldn't come out. No problem, I just gave the arrow a flick- the bullet came right out. Hit the cement floor and BANG- scared the poop out of me.

 

They are pretty safe for normal handling, but the edges of the rim are pretty soft- doesn't take much of a rap to set them off.

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Just one more thought on the "inmate" analogy... what if the inmate found only an ammo can filled with harmless SWAG in the woods, carried it back with them to the prison bus, and were then shot by the guard- who feared "inmate carrying ammo-can = inmate preparing to stage armed escape?" I imagine the geocacher who hid the cache would have trouble living that one down. Bottom line here is, DON'T EVEN USE AMMO CANS in areas frequented by inmates! Don't put objects that could be transformed into "shivs" into these caches either. In fact, don't even GO to these caches! You could be held hostage by one of these roaming inmates, roughed-up, or MUCH, MUCH worse....

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It seems to me this thread could greatly benefit by a quick lesson in ballistics. An "unfired" shotgun shell or a rifle cartridge of any caliber WITHOUT THE GUN is, for the most part, a fairly harmless object. It requires the appropriate sized gun WITH THE AMMUNITION PROPERLY CHAMBERED to complete the necessary firing sequence...thus building sufficient pressure (thru the burning powder in a tightly fitted barrel) to expel a projectile through a barrel and out a gun's muzzle. See this diagram: Firing Sequence of a Gun

 

Ammunition thrown into a fire or crushed by a rock or in some other manner abused carelessly by an individual may have some minor explosive effects...but it will not ignite with sufficient pressure to cause great bodily harm. At least not as one who is likely unfamiliar with guns would expect it to do. Gun powder burns rapidly producing gas pressure that without being contained inside a gun is simply not harnessed.

 

Now please understand I mention all of this not to condone putting ammunition into a cache. Frankly, I think ammo is a rather poor trade item with the potential for very unpleasant consequences. Ammunition alone, however, is only one component to what is necessary to become a dangerous situation. I don't view it as a particularly dangerous object by itself when handled by responsible geocaching adults.

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Ammunition thrown into a fire or crushed by a rock or in some other manner abused carelessly by an individual may have some minor explosive effects...but it will not ignite with sufficient pressure to cause great bodily harm

 

I disagree, in my crazy days of the 70's (when more alcohol then brains were present), a "friend" (yeah, that's it, a friend) threw a few 22 shells into a fire, after the crowd around the fire cleared and the several small explosions quit, one of the shells (not the slug) was found embedded in the door of my truck. Had anyone been standing in that spot we could have had a death, or at least a trip to the E.R.,

not to mention the explanation to the local LEO's,,,,,

 

 

 

As always, your friendly neighborhood Marmetion

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I've taken 22s apart with my fingers and a hard surface.

 

On another note, we once took .270 shells, taped marbles to them, and tossed them over a building onto a parking lot.. It wasn't smart, but we were young and stupid.

Which is exactly why ammo shouldn't be left in caches, out of a desire to protect young stupid people and anyone who happens to be in their immediate vicinity.

 

Honestly I suppose it matters where you live. If you live in an area where hunting and sport shooting is as common as bicycling and hiking, then it is probably more appropriate than it would be elsewhere.

 

Personally? No I wouldn't leave live ammo in a cache. Shellcasings? Well, that seems pretty harmless. If I found them in a cache I would probably leave them there, although I would probably notify the cache owner, just in case. I can understand why someone would not want them in his or her cache.

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Ammunition thrown into a fire or crushed by a rock or in some other manner abused carelessly by an individual may have some minor explosive effects...but it will not ignite with sufficient pressure to cause great bodily harm

 

I disagree, in my crazy days of the 70's (when more alcohol then brains were present), a "friend" (yeah, that's it, a friend) threw a few 22 shells into a fire, after the crowd around the fire cleared and the several small explosions quit, one of the shells (not the slug) was found embedded in the door of my truck. Had anyone been standing in that spot we could have had a death, or at least a trip to the E.R.,

not to mention the explanation to the local LEO's,,,,,

 

As always, your friendly neighborhood Marmetion

Alright, if you don't believe me check out this conclusion as determined in this safety report. Safenet Incident Report

 

The situation was this:

 

During a controlled burn of an abandoned hunting cabin and outbuildings, firefighters were exposed to a situation where multiple explosions of ammunition occurred during the fire. Firefighters were in the general vicinity of the structure applying water to some surrounding trees in order to minimize fire damage, when explosions occurred....  Concern regarding flying projectiles were expressed by crew although none were observed.

 

Here's what the Maryland Fire Marshal's Office said, as quoted from a bomb squad technician, in regards to this incident:

 

"Firearm Ammo when subjected to extreme heat and fire expands with a minor explosion which separates the bullet from the casing causing the bang or pop noise. Because this explosion occurs in an open environment where there is no compression and/or directed propellant, this is considered a low hazard situation. However, if the ammo is in a closed container where the force is contained or directed, portions of the shell, casing, container may be propelled short distances. Shotgun shells, which generally have a plastic case are most likely to melt prior to the explosion and the contained shot are generally released and the powder charge explosion is generally harmless."

 

Again, my comment was that if a single (or even a small handful) of bullets get tossed into a fire the resulting action is NOT likely to cause any great bodily injury. On the other hand...if you toss a large ammunition cache into a fire that can build pressure (such as a sealed metal ammo container) you then have the making for a real nasty situation. But this thread started talking about SINGLE cartridges found in caches for trading.

 

If you still don't like my contentions...do a GOOGLE search and provide the link(s) to a story where someone has been killed or injured carelessly tossing unfired ammo into a fire. I'm not foolish enough to say you can't find something on the vast information resources of the web...but I betcha you must do lots of digging. Given all the stories we hear of people abusing rounds of ammunition...if it was so dangerous, when carelessly handled, surely a Google search would provide lots of links quite readily proving the details.

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You only posted the parts of that report that support your opinion- here are some more quotes from the same report:

 

The technician advised that 20-30 ft should be a safe distance.

 

 

That was the next sentence after your quote.

 

Firefighters should not be stationed in close proximity to any potential sites which may contain ammunition unless necessary.

 

From the conclusions listed at the end of the report.

 

I agree that without something (like a gun, but not neccesarily an actual gun) to direct the force in one direction, the range and potential danger are reduced, but any explosion is dangerous. Look at all the people hurt by fireworks every year- and those are cased in paper, not brass.

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After being a firefighter for over 25 years I can speak from first hand experience that ammunition can and does explode in a fire with sufficient force to injure someone. Not the same force as discharged from a firearm, but still sufficient to penetrate skin and injure.

 

I have a couple of fellow firefighters who will show their scars to any doubters. :lol:

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You only posted the parts of that report that support your opinion- here are some more quotes from the same report:

 

The technician advised that 20-30 ft should be a safe distance.

 

 

That was the next sentence after your quote.

 

Firefighters should not be stationed in close proximity to any potential sites which may contain ammunition unless necessary.

 

Go back and look at that safety fact sheet again. I used an excerpt from the fact sheet that was the quoted opinion of the bomb squad expert. Their opinion was encased within quotation marks -- which I quoted in its entirety WITHOUT editing. The additional verbiage to which you refer is NOT a direct quote from this source. If it was then it surely would have been contained within quotes...and I would have included it in my post.

 

Keep in mind this is a safety incident report used to establish future policy in handling a like situation. Of course the suggestions you expect to read are going to error on the side of caution. I suspect if the safety experts believed this to be a REAL danger a distance of 20 to 30 feet would not have been adequate for their recommendation.

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After being a firefighter for over 25 years I can speak from first hand experience that ammunition can and does explode in a fire with sufficient force to injure someone.  Not the same force as discharged from a firearm, but still sufficient to penetrate skin and injure.

 

I have a couple of fellow firefighters who will show their scars to any doubters. :lol:

Firefighting inside a home or business is a much different creature than tossing a cartridge or two into a bonfire (that's how this aspect of the thread splintered off). While I appreciate and respect your years of firefighting experience, the dangers encountered in firefighting are dealing with much different ammo storage issues (and likely in much larger quantities where unique problems could develop).

 

Until recently I've worked as a full-time medic with over 6,000 documented emergency medical runs (over a career of 16 years). I guess I must have been lucky...'cause I have never heard of an incident (not even through the experiences of my peers) where exploding ammo (not used in conjunction with a firearm) has caused any problems. Once I recall doing a fire stand-by at the home of a person who kept large amounts of blackpowder stored inside his trailer. Of course, we expected a big kabooooom! But most often ammunition and gun powder alone does not perform as one would expect...not without the firearm also involved. :D

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Just one more thought on the "inmate" analogy... what if the inmate found only an ammo can filled with harmless SWAG in the woods, carried it back with them to the prison bus, and were then shot by the guard- who feared "inmate carrying ammo-can = inmate preparing to stage armed escape?" I imagine the geocacher who hid the cache would have trouble living that one down. Bottom line here is, DON'T EVEN USE AMMO CANS in areas frequented by inmates! Don't put objects that could be transformed into "shivs" into these caches either. In fact, don't even GO to these caches! You could be held hostage by one of these roaming inmates, roughed-up, or MUCH, MUCH worse....

I'm just not seeing your point.

 

What if the guard fearing the cammo tupperware shot the inmate, what if the inmage found a gun tossed out of a car just coming off a drive by shooing, what if a trucker with aids tossed a bottle bomb full of urine and the guard fearing a bio hazard....

 

Oh, and nobody I know gets 'where the inmates go training' so I'll leave it up to the judgment of our penal system to select the inmates and areas and I will go about my business which includes geocaching with all sorts of containers.

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...Again, my comment was that if a single (or even a small handful) of bullets get tossed into a fire the resulting action is NOT likely to cause any great bodily injury. On the other hand...if you toss a large ammunition cache into a fire that can build pressure (such as a sealed metal ammo container) you then have the making for a real nasty situation. But this thread started talking about SINGLE cartridges found in caches for trading.

 

If you still don't like my contentions...do a GOOGLE search and provide the link(s) to a story where someone has been killed or injured carelessly tossing unfired ammo into a fire. I'm not foolish enough to say you can't find something on the vast information resources of the web...but I betcha you must do lots of digging. Given all the stories we hear of people abusing rounds of ammunition...if it was so dangerous, when carelessly handled, surely a Google search would provide lots of links quite readily proving the details.

Backing you up on this. I had collected a fair handful of ammo that didn't fit anything I shot. Not knowing what to do with it I took it to the sherrifs office and asked them to dispose of it. They looked at me funny, then took it and said they would burn it the next time they burned narcotics (or pot or whatever it is they burn...).

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I'm just not seeing your point.

 

What if the guard fearing the cammo tupperware shot the inmate, what if the inmage found a gun tossed out of a car just coming off a drive by shooing, what if a trucker with aids tossed a bottle bomb full of urine and the guard fearing a bio hazard....

 

Oh, and nobody I know gets 'where the inmates go training' so I'll leave it up to the judgment of our penal system to select the inmates and areas and I will go about my business which includes geocaching with all sorts of containers.

 

 

Glad you got my joke. This whole thread is a little silly IMHO :lol:

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