Ngs Poor/destroyed Opinion

[+bicknell]

I found two marks today and I'm not 100% sure how to log them with the NGS. I'd like pointers, based on the NGS criteria.

 

The first mark is JV3882. In this case the disk is present, but somehow has been raised about 2" out of it's concrete setting (although it is still firmly attached by the stem), and is canted about 30 degrees to one side. There's something solid under it (concrete? steel? couldn't tell) about 2" below the bottom of the disk when probed with a shovel.

 

Is this mark in "poor" condition, or has it been disturbed enough that it should be marked destroyed in the NGS database (that is, submitted to Deb for that process)?

 

The second mark is JV7193. In this case we found a pile of rubble at the location that is quite clearly a destroyed benchmark setting. It's at a middle school, I think someone wanted the disk. The disk is gone. Is this enough "proof" for the NGS the destroy the mark, or do we stick with the no disk, no destroyed usual mantra?

 

Thanks for your opinions.

[Bill93]

The setting for the first mark was listed as "stainless steel rod", not "concrete post". Unless you actually saw concrete, I doubt there is a post under it.

 

In 1979 disks were commonly screwed, criimped, or welded to the top of a rod that had been driven deeply into the ground. There may be a PVC pipe filled with sand or gravel around it to drain away water. I'm not sure in 1979, but now there would also be a greased sleeve around the rod for the top few feet to keep frost from being able to grab hold of it. Nowdays, instead of a disk, the mark would be a dimple in the rod and the number would be stamped on the rim of a cover with a hinged lid. You have an example of the in-between vintage of marks.

 

If there is a chunk of PVC pipe lying around there, I think something hit it, broke the pipe, and disturbed the disk. The broken pipe is why it looks like the disk is pulled up, but it may not be--just bent sideways after the pipe was gone. It would be pretty hard to pull 20 or 30 feet of rod upward but a backhoe or grader could do it.

 

Whether this remains of any value as a survey mark I can't judge. It was an elevation (only) mark, and maybe is close enough to the original elevation for some purposes, but certainly couldn't be trusted to its original precision. I would read the description "ABOVE LEVEL" to be a typo and mean "ABOUT LEVEL" with the highway. Can you judge if it is close?

 

I'd submit a Poor with full description and pictures. If someone wants to call it destroyed later, you have then recorded more information about its demise than would otherwise have been captured.

[ArtMan]

Leo,

 

Usually a quick glance at my log entry will instantly bring memories of my visit to the mark. Not this time, though. I pull a complete blank on this one. (Well, it was a year and a half, and about a thousand attempted recoveries ago.)

 

Since JV3882 is a bench mark disk for vertical control and, if I understand you correctly, the disk is raised above its previous location, I would say that it's pretty useless for survey or geodetic purposes, but it wouldn't seem to meet the very stringent NGS definition of "destroyed."

 

I would probably log this as "found in poor condition," with an explanation of just what exactly is so poor about its condition.

 

-Art-

 

PS - Thanks to Bill for those helpful comments.

[Z15]

I would log JV3882 as found in POOR CONDITION, and explain what I found in short detail. e.g. The survey disk appears to have been tampered with, its is disturbed in its setting. ETC

 

JV7193 I would log as NOT FOUND, and explain what I did find. You cannot assume its destroyed without finding the survye disk. You have to be 100% certain and the only way is to have the survey disk. Thats how they do it, no disk - NOT FOUND

[+bicknell]

Usually a quick glance at my log entry will instantly bring memories of my visit to the mark. Not this time, though. I pull a complete blank on this one. (Well, it was a year and a half, and about a thousand attempted recoveries ago.)

I added one area shot, see if that refreshes your memory.

[caseyb]

I would log JV3882 as found in POOR CONDITION, and explain what I found in short detail. e.g. The survey disk appears to have been tampered with, its is disturbed in its setting. ETC

 

JV7193 I would log as NOT FOUND, and explain what I did find. You cannot assume its destroyed without finding the survye disk. You have to be 100% certain and the only way is to have the survey disk. Thats how they do it, no disk - NOT FOUND

A agree completely.

[B&O]

I located a PID (KW2336) site where the disk had been imbedded in the side wall of an old Post Office. The building was demolished and a new building was under construction. I logged this as "NOT FOUND", but since there was a full set of photos available of the demolition, including the subject wall, that showed the disk cannot possibly be were it belongs, I double checked with Deb. She concurred with "NOT FOUND". No disk, no destruction. Just like the NGS site says.

 

Now my question: There are a lot of PID's that never had a disk, e.g. flag poles, church steeples, smoke stacks, etc. How are these marked "DISTROYED"? No disk to send in. There are a lots and lots, of stacks that have been taken down over the last twenty years, or so. Meanwhile, I have several photos showing such sites; I’m going to submit them as photos of PIDxxxx, period. The NGS can change my “NOT FOUND” to “DISTROYED”, or leave it as is, which every way fits best for their uses for the data set. They seem to like getting the digital photos, albeit it does take some effort to get the labels in the photos matching their requirements. At least it seems that the effort is not wasted.

Edited June 19, 2005 by B&O

[Bill93]

NGS will routinely mark Intersection Stations like the water tanks, radio towers, church spires, etc. as Destroyed when given solid evidence. The rules are different for those than for a disk.

[mloser]

To log intersection stations as destroyed I send pics to Deb showing the location of the missing (or altered) station. In all cases I attempt to include my GPSr in at least one or two pics showing the coordinates and/or the arrow of the GOTO pointing at the non-existant station. Also, I describe what I found, such as "Water tower location is now the the back yard of a house", etc. This has not failed me yet.

I have 39 destroyed stations at GC.com, slightly fewer at NGS (ones I KNOW are gone but also KNOW the NGS will not accept my description without physical proof).

 

One example can be seen at: KW3065

 

Matt

[+Harry Dolphin]

NGS will routinely mark Intersection Stations like the water tanks, radio towers, church spires, etc. as Destroyed when given solid evidence. The rules are different for those than for a disk.

I've submitted two for 'destroyed' status today. One an intersection point, one a disk.

KU1430 has obviously been destroyed. See evidence: Photo.

Also: Yorkville/Ruppert.

That seems fairly definitive that the disk has been destroyed.

[kc2ixe]

NGS will routinely mark Intersection Stations like the water tanks, radio towers, church spires, etc. as  Destroyed when given solid evidence.  The rules are different for those than for a disk.

I've submitted two for 'destroyed' status today. One an intersection point, one a disk.

KU1430 has obviously been destroyed. See evidence: Photo.

Also: Yorkville/Ruppert.

That seems fairly definitive that the disk has been destroyed.

I've actually got a stack of about 15 or 20 destroyed marks sitting on Deb's desk right now. 2 were intersection stations that I went out and photographed. The rest are datasheets that have destroyed recoveries in them, as in "Station has been removed during XX construction project by YYY". Found them while looking for "interesting" marks to hunt - most of them in the mid 1930s to 1950s

Edited June 21, 2005 by kc2ixe

[B&O]

NGS will routinely mark Intersection Stations like the water tanks, radio towers, church spires, etc. as  Destroyed when given solid evidence.  The rules are different for those than for a disk.

I've submitted two for 'destroyed' status today. One an intersection point, one a disk.

KU1430 has obviously been destroyed. See evidence: Photo.

Also: Yorkville/Ruppert.

That seems fairly definitive that the disk has been destroyed.

Yes, this looks like what I did for KW2336. The link I cited there shows a full set of demolition photos. The building is obviously gone. The wall containing the disk is obviously gone. ....and as I said in my first post: Deb sent me a return email confirming that I had recorded it correctly at NGS as: "NOT FOUND". No disk, no "DISTROYED".

 

My question then was concerning PID’s that never had a disk. Bill93 seems to have the answer: the rules are different. My thanks to him.

 

New question:

 

The photos with both KU1430 and KW3065 show the near uselessness of including the GPSr in the photo. There is insufficient depth-of-field to keep the feature in the background and the GPSr in the foreground both in focus (and insufficient macro ability).

 

The question this raises is: Has NGS ever made a request to include the GPSr in photos? They do not do so in their documentation on “Requirements for Digital Photographs for Survey Control”.

[+Black Dog Trackers]

B&O -

The question this raises is: Has NGS ever made a request to include the GPSr in photos? They do not do so in their documentation on “Requirements for Digital Photographs for Survey Control”.

 

No, and neither has Geocaching.com as far as I can remember.

 

All that was ever said here by the NGS on the subject was that it was acceptable:

 

joegeodesist  (from here)

Posted: Mar 2 2005, 11:26 AM

 

Black Dog Trackers 

Posted: Feb 9 2005, 10:32 AM

 

2...submitting a close-up picture with their GPS receiver in the view (and sometimes in the area view). Will this be acceptable?

Sure. Gives a good sense of scale, as would a ruler. Don't block any stamping!

 

I assume you have already read this topic on including the GPS receiver in benchmark closeups.

[B&O]

Thanks, BDT. Being a tadpole, I was actually trying to read the fuzzy numbers, not realizing it is just for scale. If you can read the stamping, you look up the lat-long in the database, rather than going blurry eyed. I should think first. Sorry. …and regarding the thread you cited; no, this tadpole had not yet swum up that creek. Still learning my way around. It is one of the better email threads I've seen in quite a while. Thanks for helping.

[+BuckBrooke]

kc2ixe,

I've also ran across a number of stations (30 or so) that have "I'm looking at the disk being destroyed as we speak" reports, and sent them off to Deb. With 4 more where I ran across the disk & monument up out of the ground on its side, those are the bulk of my destroyeds.

I guess I've been a little chicken in getting intersection stations destroyed, vs. logging them as NOT FOUND, with a correction in some cases. Most of these are radio towers. I may start making them DESTROYED.

[+Harry Dolphin]

New question:

 

The photos with both KU1430 and KW3065 show the near uselessness of including the GPSr in the photo. There is insufficient depth-of-field to keep the feature in the background and the GPSr in the foreground both in focus (and insufficient macro ability).

 

The question this raises is: Has NGS ever made a request to include the GPSr in photos? They do not do so in their documentation on “Requirements for Digital Photographs for Survey Control”.

Most of my GPS pictures do come out, with the coordinates legible. That's usually looking down at a disk. This one was held at arm's length. That's more difficult, and I guess I failed in this attempt.

No, it's not a NGS, nor a Geocaching requirement. It's an inbred Geocaching-Locationless-Cache-finding frame of mind. "Take a picture with the GPS. You might need it." [] Combined with the thought that maybe someone will find my GPS readings useful at some point in time.

Tough to read the GPS on this one, but the photo can be lightened up. LY2620 RM3 Milton. LY2620 RM3. RM3 did not have coordinates listed. I found what is left of the RM. Anyone wants to find it, I reported my GPS readings.