Forum Wars X

24.7k · June 7, 2005

It’s been quiet in the forums lately and that’s given me time to look back at all the debates, discussions and flames that have taken place and to realize what has come out of it. Standards are evolving, people do stop in read, and change their mind. Some of us more stubborn rat bastards give up our old ways.

A few weeks ago on a Sun Valley trip I DNF’d a cache. Based on my log the owner emailed me and said that I’d looked right where it was supposed to be, the cache was gone, and I can log the find. For a long time I’ve advocated that if you found where the cache was supposed to be and the owner says you can log it then log it. After that email the "No Log, No Find" comments started being repeated by the annoying shoulder angel with the halo. I left my log as a DNF.

Dammit! You all are supposed to come around to my way of thinking! Not vice versa!

Oh well. Live and learn. Anyone else change their errant ways?

June 7, 2005

Insert self-serving crap here about how I cache for the wonder of it all and it's not about the numbers, blah, blah....

June 7, 2005

RK, Being a golfer, I started out with kicks and cheating on my score. I soon discovered the golf gods didn't like that. It taught me to be honest no matter if the snowman hit the card. So when I wiff a cache, I take the DNF. I haven't won the lotto because I was honest but I felt better. ... Watching the forums and the flame outs, I soon realized this is too much fun to get upset over. I think twice before I light someone up and then I don't. So I guess I have learned something. I've also been educated in this hobby. I laugh alot at the forums. People being people.

4.8k · June 7, 2005

Now why would I change my mind when I am always right????

I changed my mind on the whole multiple logging of event caches thing. I did it at one event and then after a few forum debates, I changed my mind and changed the finds to notes. I still don't care what others do there though.

Edited June 7, 2005 by carleenp

3.9k · June 7, 2005

Dammit! You all are supposed to come around to my way of thinking! Not vice versa!

Glad to see I changed you. Though I do miss all our past debates!

El Diablo

2.6k · June 7, 2005

I've learned a great deal from reading the forums, but not so much from any argument I've participated in. Generally speaking, I don't stick my big fat oar in the water until I've made my mind up pretty firmly.

3.3k · June 7, 2005

For a long time I’ve advocated that if you found where the cache was supposed to be and the owner says you can log it then log it. After that email the "No Log, No Find" comments started being repeated by the annoying shoulder angel with the halo. I left my log as a DNF.

for the first time, this happened to me. I was on a 4 mile 4 1/2 hour hike with friends finding 22 caches. One cache we could see, but didn't want to retrieve the cache because I thought the bush guarding the cache was poison oak.

My friend said to log the cache, because we found the container. After hiking the full trail, I decided to return to this particular cache and avoid this bush to the best of my ability, just to put my signature in the logbook.

My cache angel was telling me I needed to log the cache in order to count it as a find.

It turned out the bush was not Poison Oak, but a look alike bush.

Edited June 7, 2005 by Kit Fox

1.6k · June 7, 2005

I don't usually participate in the huge forum wars. I'm not exactly sure why though.

2.2k · June 7, 2005

Forum bickering...I never touch it. .

1.6k · June 7, 2005

Forum bickering...I never touch it. .

10.1k · June 7, 2005

Errant? Itinerant, perhaps.

One I did. Three visits to the hollow tree. Unable to find the cache. Doubt it's there. Someone changed the combination on the lock, so no one can get to the log anyway. If it's even still there...

Last cache and dash that was missing? Thanks, but I'll find it on my next trip out that way.

2.1k · June 7, 2005

Anyone else change their errant ways?

Yep. (Not sure about errant, but my perspective has changed on several issues)

7.3k · June 8, 2005

Well, as I mentioned in another thread, I recently archived one of my caches because of the cemetery threads and the did I screw up or what thread.

Pooh. That hurt.

June 8, 2005

Bah, if you think this forum is bad you must be new to the internet. Seriously, this is one of the most mellow forums out there. If you want to go somewhere where you'll see REAL flamewars, I can give you a couple addresses. Heh.

2.7k · June 8, 2005

Bah, if you think this forum is bad you must be new to the internet. Seriously, this is one of the most mellow forums out there. If you want to go somewhere where you'll see REAL flamewars, I can give you a couple addresses. Heh.

I believe RK was referring to the constructive debates we have here (heated or not). There is usually some point to them, rather than a bunch of Godwinning.

/Is Godwinning even a word?

3.1k · June 8, 2005

I once got involved in a heated thread about a certain controversial travel bug. I'm not sure my opinion on it has changed, but I wish I hadn't gotten involved. It didn't really concern me, and worse, a few months later someone on the other side, from another state, attended an event here. Maybe I imagined it, and maybe she didn't even remember the debate, but I think we kind of cold-shouldered each other. So I didn't get to sit and chat with a cacher from far away because of a pretty inconsequential argument. So, sorry, Centris, maybe next time, eh?

So now, I try to avoid flamewars. But if I do ever argue with you here in the forums, know that in my book what goes in the forums stays in the forums.

June 8, 2005

what goes in the forums stays in the forums.

The way it should be!

2.2k · June 8, 2005

Ive gotten into quite a few forum spats with people and had a perfectly wonderful time caching with them in the real world.

There isn't a singe person in these forums that I wouldn't enjoy caching with regardless of whether we've exchanged words or not.

1.8k · June 8, 2005

Everytime I get into a heated debate, no one gives a carp what I have to say ... so, more times than not, I say nothing. Plus my skins so thick it makes leather look like silk. In other words, it takes quite a lot to get me going ...

Except for that 'WH' character, everyone in this forum has my respect.

(You know I'm kidding, WH!)

Edited June 8, 2005 by clearpath

2.2k · June 8, 2005

mmmm....red meat

38.2k · June 8, 2005

That angel visited me recently. In 2003 I had logged a find on a cache where we went as a team. It required the finder to slip between two RR ties and climb down to a bridge support just to see the cache. Then someone had to walk out on a 2 inch wide beam suspended some 30 feet over a shallow river to nab it. I couldn't squeeze down so I helped by grabbing the cache from the guy who retreived it. We all signed the log and the owner was there and said he considered it a find for everyone.

But it gnawed at me and one other guy who couldn't squeeze down there. He returned with climbing equipment and lowered himself to the cache just to touch it.

I never went back, so the find sat there mocking me for a year and a half. It was calling me "Cheater, cheater, pumpkin eater" and worse.

Johnny Cochrane called me and left a message on my answering machine "If you didn't make the climb, don't log the find" he said.

I would see smileys in my dreams. Hundreds of them would attack me and swarm all over screaming "Liar, liar, pants on fire!". My wife shunned me. Called me "a poor excuse for a man".

My parents wouldn't take my calls. "Brian, I have no son named Brian" my father would say.

There was a girl selling those yellow smiley buttons in the mall. I went to buy one and she said "Sorry, your kind doesn't deserve these". How the heck did she know?

Finally it was too much for me to bear, so I changed it to a note.

7.3k · June 8, 2005

June 8, 2005

Bah, if you think this forum is bad you must be new to the internet. Seriously, this is one of the most mellow forums out there. If you want to go somewhere where you'll see REAL flamewars, I can give you a couple addresses. Heh.

Amen to that! I usually lurk and don't post often but I read the flame wars and laugh at the trolls! It's pretty easy to hide behind a "puter screen." Your absolutely right...This is by far the mellowest forum I regularly frequent.

18.9k · June 8, 2005

Only DNF I ever logged was because I replaced a cache that was obviously missing with a new container. The guy appreciated it. I did find the tack that was holding a fragment of the original container.........

.....now am feeling a bit guilty........

38.2k · June 8, 2005

Bah, if you think this forum is bad you must be new to the internet. Seriously, this is one of the most mellow forums out there. If you want to go somewhere where you'll see REAL flamewars, I can give you a couple addresses. Heh.

Two of the worst:

Rec.skiing.alpine.

Rec.backcountry

Pretty brutal stuff there, particularly in RSA. Its not mellow here compared to them. Its downright catatonic.

A typical RSA thread and another . I just hope these people never discover geocaching.

Edited June 8, 2005 by briansnat

1.8k · June 8, 2005

Pretty brutal stuff there, particularly in RSA. Its not mellow here compared to them. Its downright catatonic.

You're not one of the ring leaders are you , hehehe. Just kidding, however, I'm sure you hold your own very well in those 'other' forums.

4.8k · June 8, 2005

That angel visited me recently. In 2003 I had logged a find on a cache where we went as a team. It required the finder to slip between two RR ties and climb down to a bridge support just to see the cache. Then someone had to walk out on a 2 inch wide beam suspended some 30 feet over a shallow river to nab it. I couldn't squeeze down so I helped by grabbing the cache from the guy who retreived it. We all signed the log and the owner was there and said he considered it a find for everyone.

But it gnawed at me and one other guy who couldn't squeeze down there. He returned with climbing equipment and lowered himself to the cache just to touch it.

I never went back, so the find sat there mocking me for a year and a half. It was calling me "Cheater, cheater, pumpkin eater" and worse.

Johnny Cochrane called me and left a message on my answering machine "If you didn't make the climb, don't log the find" he said.

I would see smileys in my dreams. Hundreds of them would attack me and swarm all over screaming "Liar, liar, pants on fire!". My wife shunned me. Called me "a poor excuse for a man".

My parents wouldn't take my calls. "Brian, I have no son named Brian" my father would say.

There was a girl selling those yellow smiley buttons in the mall. I went to buy one and she said "Sorry, your kind doesn't deserve these". How the heck did she know?

Finally it was too much for me to bear, so I changed it to a note.

There is a climbing involved cache here where people will at times go together and one gets the dang thing, brings it back, and all log. I don't care that they do it, but decided for myself that I would not log that one unless I go get it myself. On another I wondered about 2 caches that required either a tree climb or a pic with the tree. I couldn't climb but did take a pic and logged a find. I later agonized over that since I went deciding to climb and posted a forum thread on it. I left the finds but still wonder if I should change them to notes! Hmmmm, thinking I might!

2.7k · June 8, 2005

I will take a stand and say I am totally against anyone threatening your
life (name removed), but breaking your fingers would be a different story !

3.8k · June 8, 2005

...Anyone else change their errant ways?

How rude of you to even assume that I (or anyone else reading this) have any errant ways. I have always been right and alway will be right.

Except when I'm wrong.

You're just trying to stir up trouble, RK.

1k · June 8, 2005

I wonder if people would be quite as opinionated and aggressive in the forums if they had to use their real names.

June 8, 2005

got to the

ok so i just looked at my clock i;v been on the foums since 9:00 pst last night!!!

i'll be back to banter some more...

2.6k · June 8, 2005

I wonder if people would be quite as opinionated and aggressive in the forums if they had to use their real names.

I can certainly answer for myself: yes indeedy. I've been arguing on the internet since the early days on Usenet, when aliases were frowned on and traditionally one did sign with full name (and often employer, address and phone number). I was this obnoxious then, too.

I got downright paranoid about it in later years, though, after a couple of people on the other side of an argument tried to reach out and touch me. Didn't mellow me, but it taught me to be careful about personal details.

2.2k · June 8, 2005

My name Is Timothy Wood, I live in Franklin, MA and you all still suck.

Edited June 8, 2005 by WH

38.2k · June 8, 2005

I wonder if people would be quite as opinionated and aggressive in the forums if they had to use their real names.

I can certainly answer for myself: yes indeedy. I've been arguing on the internet since the early days on Usenet, when aliases were frowned on and traditionally one did sign with full name (and often employer, address and phone number). I was this obnoxious then, too.

I got downright paranoid about it in later years, though, after a couple of people on the other side of an argument tried to reach out and touch me. Didn't mellow me, but it taught me to be careful about personal details.

Before I discovered geocaching, most of my online time was spent in Usenet, where I used my real name. BrianSnat is just a shortened version of that.

I'm pretty opinionated and I'm much more direct in Usenet because its not a community where I'm likely to meet the other participants. Here I am, so I try to temper my posts.

Imagine my shock when I found out about a year ago that everything I ever wrote is still out there for all to see. Google my name and there are over 1,600 Usenet entires going back 7-8 years. Horrified, I spent some time looking at my old posts, but I saw very little there that I would take back. OK, I was pretty nasty to some people, but it was usually in response to someone who was nasty to me first.

Edited June 8, 2005 by briansnat

2.6k · June 8, 2005

Imagine my shock when I found out about a year ago that everything I ever wrote is still out there for all to see. Google my name and there are over 1,600 Usenet entires going back 7-8 years. Horrified, I spent some time looking at my old posts, but I saw very little there that I would take back. OK, I was pretty nasty to some people, but it was usually in response to someone who was nasty to me first.

Google bought up the old Deja News database and renamed it Google Groups. Luckily, that database only goes back to 1996, so nothing I posted under my real name is extant in the collection. Of the stuff that's in there, I haven't run across any of my old opinions I'd change -- but I've certainly left some crap writing to posterity. Brrrr. Let's hear it for anonymity!

June 8, 2005

Bah, if you think this forum is bad you must be new to the internet. Seriously, this is one of the most mellow forums out there. If you want to go somewhere where you'll see REAL flamewars, I can give you a couple addresses. Heh.

Two of the worst:

Rec.skiing.alpine.

Rec.backcountry

Pretty brutal stuff there, particularly in RSA. Its not mellow here compared to them. Its downright catatonic.

A typical RSA thread and another . I just hope these people never discover geocaching.

Besides the reference to Banff what do any of those posts have to do with skiing or boarding. Geocachers aren't really out to insult each other just have fun

2.3k · June 8, 2005

Imagine my shock when I found out about a year ago that everything I ever wrote is still out there for all to see. Google my name and there are over 1,600 Usenet entires going back 7-8 years. Horrified, I spent some time looking at my old posts, but I saw very little there that I would take back. OK, I was pretty nasty to some people, but it was usually in response to someone who was nasty to me first.

Yes google is a scary thing.

OTOH - breaking fingers every now and then could be a good thing...

2.2k · June 8, 2005

Bah, if you think this forum is bad you must be new to the internet. Seriously, this is one of the most mellow forums out there. If you want to go somewhere where you'll see REAL flamewars, I can give you a couple addresses. Heh.

Two of the worst:

Rec.skiing.alpine.

Rec.backcountry

Pretty brutal stuff there, particularly in RSA. Its not mellow here compared to them. Its downright catatonic.

A typical RSA thread and another . I just hope these people never discover geocaching.

OMG!!! this has to be one of the funniest things i've read.

Give it up, Mud Flap. No one believes a word out of your mouth. You're the only idiot that
I've ever seen terrified of raisins. Gawd, what would happen if someone pointed a loaded

prune in your direction. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

love those links brian.

1.8k · June 8, 2005

Don't like arguing with someone in the forums, especially since I'm a verbal person. It can be hard to get the inflections into your words - and it can change the whole tenor of the response. Besides, lots of meaning is in posture and delivery. So I find the whole process kinda unsatisfactory. I need a living person in front of me to really get into a debate.

June 8, 2005

There isn't a singe person in these forums that I wouldn't enjoy caching with regardless of whether we've exchanged words or not.

I can't say the same.....

I look at briansnat's post, and applaud him, and would love to cache with people of his type. Then I read posts from people in other threads that show a lack of the same character and integrity. Why would I choose to spend valuable time with them, when there are plenty like Brian around?

I still struggle with a cache I found months ago that some non-cacher (I assume)had put heavy cable ties around the latch, and I didn't have anything with me to cut them. I posted a note on the cache page, and the next cacher verified the cable ties, and took something to cut them. I then logged it as a find when they validated my note. I never failed at anything that was part of the cache, I just couldn;t open the ammo can to sign the logbook. But I'll probably go back sometime, just to set my mind at ease about it.

3.9k · June 8, 2005

For a long time I’ve advocated that if you found where the cache was supposed to be and the owner says you can log it then log it. After that email the "No Log, No Find" comments started being repeated by the annoying shoulder angel with the halo. I left my log as a DNF.

Ditto... My philosophy now is: If my boots hit the ground and I don't find it, it's a DNF. Even if I'm miles away from the cache. Finding where a cache WAS is not finding the cache. I have to admit, I've got a couple of "finds" out there where the cache owner gave me special dispensation. I would say the forums played a part in changing my mind.

In some cases, finding the trailhead or parking area is part of the challenge. In those cases I'll log a DNF even if I don't get out of the car. To me, it's part of the history of the cache. If I set out to find a cache, even if I didn't get close, I'd like the cache owner to know about it.

1.8k · June 8, 2005

I look at briansnat's post, and applaud him, and would love to cache with people of his type.

You're sick ... go get help while you still can.

38.2k · June 8, 2005

I look at briansnat's post, and applaud him, and would love to cache with people of his type.

You're sick ... go get help while you still can.

No you wouldn't. I have very, very bad BO. And I chat incessantly about the most banal things. My geocaching partners have been known to feign death to get away (Yeah, I know you're still alive Avroair, I saw you post a find the other day).

3.9k · June 8, 2005

I look at briansnat's post, and applaud him, and would love to cache with people of his type.

You're sick ... go get help while you still can.

No you wouldn't. I have very, very bad BO. And I chat incessantly about the most banal things. My geocaching partners have been known to feign death to get away (Yeah, I know you're still alive Avroair, I saw you post a find the other day).

I've heard tale that Brian's distinguished aroma can be detected anywhere in Northern Jersey. I've cached with Brian a couple of times and it's still unclear to me if it's actually Brian, or just N. Jersey.

Edited June 8, 2005 by JMBella

38.2k · June 8, 2005

I look at briansnat's post, and applaud him, and would love to cache with people of his type.

You're sick ... go get help while you still can.

No you wouldn't. I have very, very bad BO. And I chat incessantly about the most banal things. My geocaching partners have been known to feign death to get away (Yeah, I know you're still alive Avroair, I saw you post a find the other day).

I've heard tale that Brian's distinguished aroma can be detected anywhere in Northern Jersey. I've cached with Brian a couple of times and it's still unclear to me if it's actually Brian, or just N. Jersey.

Aaaah hah! So you're still alive too!

2.3k · June 8, 2005

I've heard tale that Brian's distinguished aroma can be detected anywhere in Northern Jersey. I've cached with Brian a couple of times and it's still unclear to me if it's actually Brian, or just N. Jersey.

Wow! Sounds like a good experiment!

1k · June 8, 2005

I wonder if people would be quite as opinionated and aggressive in the forums if they had to use their real names.

I can certainly answer for myself: yes indeedy. I've been arguing on the internet since the early days on Usenet, when aliases were frowned on and traditionally one did sign with full name (and often employer, address and phone number). I was this obnoxious then, too.

I got downright paranoid about it in later years, though, after a couple of people on the other side of an argument tried to reach out and touch me. Didn't mellow me, but it taught me to be careful about personal details.

I also go back to about 1990 on the Internet, and was an active participant in the old listservs (and still manage a list). I have always made it a policy to try never to say anything electronically that I would not say face-to-face. And I have never been comfortable with a completely anonymous nickname, which is why I use a nick derived from my actual name.

As for you, Auntie, I know exactly who you are--and where you live--but rest assured that I will not show up at your door uninvited (not with your penchant for hardware).

June 8, 2005

I find discussions in the forums very unsatisfactory. I am not argumentative by nature but I do like to tease. I don't think it comes across very well here. I do, however, keep trying. I rarely get upset with responses, but it has happened a time or two. Also, I do not feel like anybody is really listening.

This approach seems to work best for me when I am trying to decide on an issue.

Oh, I only record a find if it is done in the conventional way. No hair splitting. I admit I don't care what anybody else does. My numbers only mean something to me. Nobody elso cares about them. I play the game for my satisfaction only and I expect everybody else does too. I like to help new players and I like to provide constructive suggestions. But sometimes the devil in me makes me do this .

June 8, 2005

I have always made it a policy to try never to say anything electronically that I would not say face-to-face. And I have never been comfortable with a completely anonymous nickname, which is why I use a nick derived from my actual name.

This sounds like great advice, I have been thinking about this a lot lately. From now on I am going to try to refrain from posting anything negative.

Wish me luck.

2.6k · June 8, 2005

As for you, Auntie, I know exactly who you are--and where you live--but rest assured that I will not show up at your door uninvited (not with your penchant for hardware).

What'd you do, run my plate?

You know, I was going to chime in and say I'm actually nastier and more argumentative face-to-face, then it occurred to me I'm not sure that's true any more. Horrifying to relate, but it's possible I've mellowed. I can't remember the last time I got into a blazing row with a co-worker or called a city employee bad names.

Somehow, that makes me feel rather sad.

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