Search the Community

Clayjar: I agree for the most part with what you wrote. As I noted before I do think that a license is a Good Thing. I hope you and others believe that. I do not think that the restictive aspects of the license are required at all to disindemnify GROUNDED from any liability. As has been proved in court time and again, the extent of liability for the body operating a server that serves data for a public forum is the requirement to remove any data a party with legal rights to ask requests. Wow, did that make sense? Basically they are NOT liable for data copied off the site. And it's even debatable whether they are liable for data they continue to publish. It's just easier to remove the requested data and be done with that aspect. In fact. from a legal liability standpoint claiming copyright on the published data increases the legal liability. Entity foo can republish the data, and let GROUNDED be a front to any legal action. The only thing foo would liable for is a copyright violation. So from your example: Bob's Big Fat Open Spaces, Inc. can't sue foo, but CAN sue GROUNDED even after GROUNDED removes the data from geocaching.com. A nice legal position for foo to be in. ;-( Now I would like to see a license that allows Evil S. Aden and anyone else that wishes to grab and republish the data but makes it clear that any legal action taken against them cannot be redirected to GROUNDED. So, while I believe that Jeremy and GROUNDED have the right intentions (except for not allowing republication) I do not believe that the license has helped the indemnification, but rather hurt it. As Jeremy and I do not agree on the republishing issue and he does not seem to be willing to discuss it, I guess I will look for others that do share that belief and assist there. I am interested in discussing any issues related to this, but I am not interested in participating in a flame war. If you disagree with me, fine. You have that right. If you would be interested in working towards a better solution for those involved, then talk on! ;-) [This message has been edited by TimRiker (edited 02 July 2001).]

quote:Originally posted by bunkerdave:Is that where you and me find a cache at the same time and sit there and talk about caching for an hour? Mmm, now that's actually a good idea! With my Palm and Nokia I can run all my typical internet applications including IRC. 9600 bps mind you. But it works fine. So how about a Geocaching.com IRC server for "when you find it" chats! ------------------ Peter Scholtz www.biometrics.co.za

quote:Originally posted by bunkerdave:Is that where you and me find a cache at the same time and sit there and talk about caching for an hour? Mmm, now that's actually a good idea! With my Palm and Nokia I can run all my typical internet applications including IRC. 9600 bps mind you. But it works fine. So how about a Geocaching.com IRC server for "when you find it" chats! ------------------ Peter Scholtz www.biometrics.co.za

Is that where you and me find a cache at the same time and sit there and talk about caching for an hour?

Is that where you and me find a cache at the same time and sit there and talk about caching for an hour?

Darn good idea!!! I don't have much room to talk (being that I have just started today), but I've even talked a few friends into a geocaching day trip. I hope to find a card in my first find!! Anyone can say they got a trinket from a cache, but cards have bragging rights. If you're a serious outdoorsy-type...they'll catch on big!!! ------------------ Squeak

Thanks for the response, it does make me feel better knowing there hasn't been much of a problem getting permission. Still, I'd like to have a few more details. How did you find out who to contact? Did you mail a letter, or talk to them on the phone. Did you have to tell them exactly where the site was and what you were exactly going to place, or were you more general? Thanks for the help.

Rin, Red tape and talk aside ...lots of people place caches. I've placed 8. No one has ever had a problem with one of mine. The only group of folk who do have a persistant problem with it are the national forest people, and that is just with a smattering of caches. Bottom line... if you know of a nice place that has special meaning for you or is a "good place for a cache" ...put one there! It'd be one thing if we were advocating you dump a bag of trash or spray paint a swastika somewhere. Instead all we're really talking about is a self-contained tupperware or ammo box, some trinkets and 1 to 30 geocachers visiting the spot over the next 3 months. So no worries, ok?

BTW: I drive from Provo to Ogden every day. I'd love to know which of those Billboards you find offensive "I get gas at Guad's" Just kidding, I think that one is hilarious. The one that bugs me is the ad. for Khaki pants that says, save $999,950. Like I would spend $50 on Khaki pants. I think that placing political or religious materials into a cache is definately in bad taste and I wouldn't do it myself. Ultimately, it comes down to a question of law as to whether a line should be drawn in the sand. Jeremy has said he doesn't want sexually explicit caches or caches with tobacco or alcohol in them. This is because the law places an age limit on the purchase and possession of these things. Although he probably would agree that religious or political materials in caches is in poor taste I doubt we'll ever see an edict coming from him concerning the matter because it is a matter of propriety and not law. Also I may live in Utah, but I was raised in California. This is the danger in generalizing a whole state's populace, they don't always fit in. I definately consider myself in touch with the "real world" Maybe we can all talk about it at the get-together next month, I would enjoy that. -Cobalt [This message has been edited by Cobalt (edited 25 June 2001).]

BTW: I drive from Provo to Ogden every day. I'd love to know which of those Billboards you find offensive "I get gas at Guad's" Just kidding, I think that one is hilarious. The one that bugs me is the ad. for Khaki pants that says, save $999,950. Like I would spend $50 on Khaki pants. I think that placing political or religious materials into a cache is definately in bad taste and I wouldn't do it myself. Ultimately, it comes down to a question of law as to whether a line should be drawn in the sand. Jeremy has said he doesn't want sexually explicit caches or caches with tobacco or alcohol in them. This is because the law places an age limit on the purchase and possession of these things. Although he probably would agree that religious or political materials in caches is in poor taste I doubt we'll ever see an edict coming from him concerning the matter because it is a matter of propriety and not law. Also I may live in Utah, but I was raised in California. This is the danger in generalizing a whole state's populace, they don't always fit in. I definately consider myself in touch with the "real world" Maybe we can all talk about it at the get-together next month, I would enjoy that. -Cobalt [This message has been edited by Cobalt (edited 25 June 2001).]

Call me an old poop, but I find that most of the time when people talk about things as being 'adult' or 'mature' they are really refering to things that I find childish and immature. Being a mature adult is knowing how to put a cap on your baser instincts, not parading them around in public. Thank you Jeremy for taking what I think of as being a mature stand on this issue. Cephas 'Old Poop' Hawke Bedford, NH Live Free or Die

Call me an old poop, but I find that most of the time when people talk about things as being 'adult' or 'mature' they are really refering to things that I find childish and immature. Being a mature adult is knowing how to put a cap on your baser instincts, not parading them around in public. Thank you Jeremy for taking what I think of as being a mature stand on this issue. Cephas 'Old Poop' Hawke Bedford, NH Live Free or Die

Hey Paulwhy, Tracy and myself already have a letter that we used with the state parks local to us. We placed one in a park, after having a 15 minutes talk with the ranger. We spent most of that time talking about how small gps units have gotten since he was given one for work. He then gave us a tour of the park. Richard

I live southwest of you in Fayetteville, PA. If you want to talk "off-forum" e-mail me at gnbrotz@innernet.net ------------------ Greg N39°54.705' W077°33.137' [This message has been edited by gnbrotz (edited 13 June 2001).]

If you look at my new cache post (Ancient Octopus' Garden) you will see that I prefer a trivia based clue selection to help guide the hunter towards the cache. It was a blast making up the clues. I personally wouldn't mind the physical ones, but I can tell you that my kids have helped hide ours, and search for the ones we've looked for. Therefore as a family event, the physically demanding ones are out of the question. And then there are the two at Shawnee Mission park... Do you have any idea of the health hazards of tick bites? I think there are plenty of places caches could be hidden in this vast park that would not pose this danger to myself and kids. Unfortunately these two caches that are nearly in my back yard will never be sought after or found by my family. I was thinking about a kid-Kache that would use directional clues based on cartoons, Nickelodian, etc., and fill the container with kid related stuff. However I'm not sure how I'd request that adults not look for it. Any ideas? And one more thing as a newbie... What the #$%^ is up with the city of Mission? Oh my - we can't have NEW people come to our parks and discover the beauty of Mission! Talk about isolationists! Who is the Mayor there, Pat Buchanan? - Wesley

If you look at my new cache post (Ancient Octopus' Garden) you will see that I prefer a trivia based clue selection to help guide the hunter towards the cache. It was a blast making up the clues. I personally wouldn't mind the physical ones, but I can tell you that my kids have helped hide ours, and search for the ones we've looked for. Therefore as a family event, the physically demanding ones are out of the question. And then there are the two at Shawnee Mission park... Do you have any idea of the health hazards of tick bites? I think there are plenty of places caches could be hidden in this vast park that would not pose this danger to myself and kids. Unfortunately these two caches that are nearly in my back yard will never be sought after or found by my family. I was thinking about a kid-Kache that would use directional clues based on cartoons, Nickelodian, etc., and fill the container with kid related stuff. However I'm not sure how I'd request that adults not look for it. Any ideas? And one more thing as a newbie... What the #$%^ is up with the city of Mission? Oh my - we can't have NEW people come to our parks and discover the beauty of Mission! Talk about isolationists! Who is the Mayor there, Pat Buchanan? - Wesley

You may be hooked on geocaching if... the only thing that annoys you more than civilians picnicking within eyesight of a cache location, is spotting another geocacher...closer to it than you. all your hometown maps are covered with notes about possible cache locations. no one bothers asking if you brought your GPS. your geocaching forum header shows the posts number in four-digits. you sign your posts with an H/F ratio. all your GPS receivers smell like DEET. you mix your own DEET, and sell it to all the "extreme" cachers in town. you build your own GPS receivers to custom specs. and they're selling well, on display at the friendly, neighborhood military surplus store, right next to the ammo boxes. you tried to quit geocaching cold turkey, and failed...again. you joined a 12-step group for geocachers, and everyone there knew your name. every morning you spend a few minutes choosing a GPS receiver, from one of the shelves in the GPS collection display case in the foyer, to take along for the day. If you're going geocaching, the ritual takes a bit longer. your wife said, "It's me or the GPS!", and you ran out to pick up new batteries. you have to carry a pen whenever you go to the local outdoor store, so you can sign autographs when customers wave at you with printouts of your clever geocache clues. you get a 20% discount at the local outdoor store, even during sales, where you're treated like a minor Roman god by the staff for all the new geocaches you've hidden this month. you heard Garmin licensed the Palm operating system, and now have 3-D topographic dreams about the possibilites. when someone says "What's the point of owning a GPS? Don't you already know where you are?", you reply by dissing their mama. when someone asks if they should buy a GPS, you reply by asking them if they think they should buy food. you no longer talk to your friends about geocaching -- none of them will allow it. when someone asks you which GPS they should buy, you offer to drive them to the store and use the drivetime to recruit them into the sport. when someone casually asks which is the best GPS on the market, you reply by inviting them to stay for dinner and spend the night. when you're at a party, and a really good-looking woman asks you to explain the finer points of geocaching, you know you're dreaming again. you can change the batteries in your GPS with your eyes closed. you can enter a new geocache waypoint into your GPS with your eyes closed. when you close your eyes, you can see the waypoints of all the geocaches you've hidden...and read off the decimals. your favorite geocaching t-shirt says: "You can hide 'em, but not for long!" your new geocaching t-shirt says: "Find this, suckah!" you practice geocaching in the backyard. you do an early morning geocaching workout. you only geocache alone. you only geocache alone, in camo fatigues. you only geocache alone, at night, in black pajamas, with a KA-BAR strapped to your leg, and burnt cork on your face. when someone at a party glibly comments, "Isn't geocaching pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel?", you reply with one quick shot to the head, and stuff THEM in a barrel. Anton, 8H/9F [This message has been edited by Anton (edited 11 June 2001).]

You may be hooked on geocaching if... the only thing that annoys you more than civilians picnicking within eyesight of a cache location, is spotting another geocacher...closer to it than you. all your hometown maps are covered with notes about possible cache locations. no one bothers asking if you brought your GPS. your geocaching forum header shows the posts number in four-digits. you sign your posts with an H/F ratio. all your GPS receivers smell like DEET. you mix your own DEET, and sell it to all the "extreme" cachers in town. you build your own GPS receivers to custom specs. and they're selling well, on display at the friendly, neighborhood military surplus store, right next to the ammo boxes. you tried to quit geocaching cold turkey, and failed...again. you joined a 12-step group for geocachers, and everyone there knew your name. every morning you spend a few minutes choosing a GPS receiver, from one of the shelves in the GPS collection display case in the foyer, to take along for the day. If you're going geocaching, the ritual takes a bit longer. your wife said, "It's me or the GPS!", and you ran out to pick up new batteries. you have to carry a pen whenever you go to the local outdoor store, so you can sign autographs when customers wave at you with printouts of your clever geocache clues. you get a 20% discount at the local outdoor store, even during sales, where you're treated like a minor Roman god by the staff for all the new geocaches you've hidden this month. you heard Garmin licensed the Palm operating system, and now have 3-D topographic dreams about the possibilites. when someone says "What's the point of owning a GPS? Don't you already know where you are?", you reply by dissing their mama. when someone asks if they should buy a GPS, you reply by asking them if they think they should buy food. you no longer talk to your friends about geocaching -- none of them will allow it. when someone asks you which GPS they should buy, you offer to drive them to the store and use the drivetime to recruit them into the sport. when someone casually asks which is the best GPS on the market, you reply by inviting them to stay for dinner and spend the night. when you're at a party, and a really good-looking woman asks you to explain the finer points of geocaching, you know you're dreaming again. you can change the batteries in your GPS with your eyes closed. you can enter a new geocache waypoint into your GPS with your eyes closed. when you close your eyes, you can see the waypoints of all the geocaches you've hidden...and read off the decimals. your favorite geocaching t-shirt says: "You can hide 'em, but not for long!" your new geocaching t-shirt says: "Find this, suckah!" you practice geocaching in the backyard. you do an early morning geocaching workout. you only geocache alone. you only geocache alone, in camo fatigues. you only geocache alone, at night, in black pajamas, with a KA-BAR strapped to your leg, and burnt cork on your face. when someone at a party glibly comments, "Isn't geocaching pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel?", you reply with one quick shot to the head, and stuff THEM in a barrel. Anton, 8H/9F [This message has been edited by Anton (edited 11 June 2001).]

It is sort of frustrating. I think some of the individual park rangers are open to the idea of Geocaching but they are handcuffed by the rules of their park system. It seems very difficult to talk to someone that could actually help us change these rules. I think the chain of command here is very tall and we are going to have a lot of climbing to get high enough up to get some changes made. If anyone has any idea I would love to hear them. I was think maybe we could get a group of Geocachers from that area together if we could find someone in the Park Service that would listen to us and help us start an appeal for some changes. Maybe they would be willing to let up put caches in ranger approve areas. I wouldn't mind some common sense regulation but right now they are just blindly enforcing the rules and these rules do not allow geocaching. mcb

Just an update for those who weren't able to attend. We had a great turnout with twenty-five plus folks showing up at one time or another. In fact, it was such a great turn out that we planned another meeting. We're on for July 14 from 3 to 5 pm. We don't know where yet but LoCache is looking for a spot. There was a great deal of talk about the State Park situation and Black Knight reported that all is not lost. He and some others are meeting with local park officials in the near future and they will report back to everyone at the next meeting. Keep an eye out for more info about the next gathering here in this Groundspeak forum as well as the new event cache at geocaching.com Jess Bowers t_j_bowers@hotmail.com [This message has been edited by tjbowers (edited 10 June 2001).]

I need more ideas on promoting Geocaching in countries where it hasn't taken off yet. I've tried a few things but it hasn't really helped yet, e.g.: 1. Radio interview on local talk radio (http://www.geocaching.com/media/CapeTalk.mp3) 2. Word by mouth (telling friends and taking them along - this works, but o so slowly) 3. "Pirate" posters on street lamp posts near traffic intersections (ok, I only put up three in the Cape Town CBD as an experiment - and the weather has destroyed two of them). I'm considering applying to the local municipality for permission to put up about a hundred ... will cost though. 4. Pamphlets at outdoor shops where they sell GPS's. (Must still do this, might be the most effective). Ideas please ... (So far I'm doing a lot more hiding than seeking, and I must admit I prefer the seek.) ------------------ Peter Scholtz www.biometrics.co.za

quote:Originally posted by jeremy: Of course that is considered confrontational to the Park service, and they will take a harder look at stifling the game in more and more locations. I guarantee that....I like the idea worse and worse as we talk about it. That, of course, doesn't mean I won't leave the checkbox, but I certainly won't check it for my caches. Jeremy A few points to make: 1. That's fine if you choose not to check the box, but allowing people the freedom to have their coordinates posted elsewhere is good for the sport. People can have access to the game through different websites. 2. Your worry about liability is unnecessary. If you removed a bad cache from your site, then what liabilty would you face? I think the Park Service, private property owners, etc., would only go after sites that were negligent in updating their cache databases. 3. This is one more reason the sport needs a central, sanctioning body. Let's say there were 15 sites that store and maintain cache data. The council could make an "information sharing" rule that states if a cache is updated on one site, the information must be passed along to other sites. This must happen because a cache owner will have one favorite site that he/she uses. He/She will not visit every site in existence because he/she will not be aware of every one or, he/she may be too lazy to update his/her cache at each and every site. Again, this information sharing rule would ensure that a change at one site would mean a uniform change at every site. I am not a big fan of government, but a central authority can be a good thing if it is used properly. Since you copyrighted "geocaching" this can be done. I can assure you that every site will want to use the name geocaching somewhere on the page. You can make it a condition of use that if they want to use the name geocaching, they must register themselves with the council and promise to abide by the council's bylaws. If a site is negligent in updating its base, the council can decertify it as a standing member and demand the cessation of the use of the name geocaching. From that point on the site will be a stand-alone rogue and not privy to any update information. It will quickly fade away when hunters go looking for caches that have been missing for months. The free marketplace will drive these sites out. And if you're still not warm to the idea of a council, then you alone can be this governing body. You can still put into effect the suggestions I made here. And you alone can police these sites to ensure they are updating. If they aren't, pull the "geocaching" privelage. 4. This sport is growing rapidly. The media, especially, are going to be looking for a sanctioning, governing body to approach. An institution of some kind needs to be formed. A handful of people might form the "GPS Stash Hunt Society" or "GPS Treasure Hunt Association" and make up the bylaws/rules of the sport and issue press releases. To the media, this will be a blessing. They will have their point of contact/sanctioning body they were looking for. This body will be first on the scene, granted an unofficial grandfather status, and will be recognized as the sanctioning body of the sport. Sadly, like Mr. Ulmer, you may find yourself pining away on the sideline. Rob [This message has been edited by cache_only (edited 09 June 2001).]

I think the stickers are a great idea! Packs of 100 may be a bit overkill for some of us tho. Isn't that trademark/patent talk a little off topic for this thread?

quote:Originally posted by 300mag:...everyone should stop this crying...so get out there and start geocaching not geocrying. Ouch! That hurt, 300Mag. I have a sweet Remington bolt rifle chambered in 300 mag. From one gun guy to another, you hurt me to the bone, dog. I'd love to talk handguns with you, but since you live in Canada I guess that would be a one-sided conversation. All in good fun. Take care, Rob [This message has been edited by cache_only (edited 08 June 2001).]

quote:Originally posted by 300mag:...everyone should stop this crying...so get out there and start geocaching not geocrying. Ouch! That hurt, 300Mag. I have a sweet Remington bolt rifle chambered in 300 mag. From one gun guy to another, you hurt me to the bone, dog. I'd love to talk handguns with you, but since you live in Canada I guess that would be a one-sided conversation. All in good fun. Take care, Rob [This message has been edited by cache_only (edited 08 June 2001).]