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  1. Please read my comment again. I'm not saying anything about PQs going away. I'm explicitly saying to migrate the PQ preview from the old buggy seek/nearest platform to the modern next.js search results. Knowing the mess that is the old seek/nearest code-base, I doubt it's that simple. I responded to similar claims here before: Yes it was working before when two ancient ca 2005 code bases were working together. Some of these issues are side-effects of trying to get a 2005 and a vastly different and advanced 2022 version to talk to each other. The best course of action would be to get two modern systems that are much more compatible to work together. That is the next step. For the present issue, while I understand your frustration, I offered you a clear workaround. If instead of continuing to have a productive conversation like we did up until this point , you'd rather point fingers and speak poorly about the people who are trying to help you, let me know and we can be done here. And to those who say "don't take it personal" - thanks, I'll stand up for my developers and QA engineers any day because I know how hard they work every day within the constraints of our systems.
  2. An open letter to Groundspeak administration: In the early 2000s a fledgling company, looking to expand its product line and thereby increase its customer base, imported a database of benchmarks that its customers could search and log from what is now know as NOAA. Over time the customers provided the necessary additional products (geocaches) to allow the company to survive and grow. To Groundspeak’s administration benchmarks became a forgotten backwater as evidenced by the benign neglect that the platform has endured for many years. Now this same administration wants to remove benchmarking and its remarkable compendium of logs and photographs, one of the elements that helped the company survive its infancy. Let’s examine the reasons that they have stated for this wrongheaded decision: The game is global and benchmarking is a United States pursuit. As others have stated, there are multiple geocaching pursuits that are all or nearly all US based among them the APE cache(s), the original stash plaque and various events limited to HQ and environs. So “globalism” does not make a compelling argument. Very few people engage in benchmarking so it doesn’t make economic sense to support it. This should be entered in a dictionary of “self fulfilling prophesies” as a quintessential example. I can think of no other segment of the Groundspeak universe that has received as little marketing and promotion as benchmarking. For quite some time you have had to stumble over it to find it compared to everything else. I know some people that primarily looked for benchmarks during the early part of the pandemic before much was known about the virus’s survivability on caches or other surfaces. Imagine what a boost it would have been to the hobby if Groundspeak had actively promoted benchmarking during that time. The code is old and upkeep is costly. Who’s fault is that? I am certain that the code running the geocache part of the platform is not from 2002. I’ve lived through outages (that I fully understand) caused by multiple upgrades over the years. The ONLY reason we are at this juncture is because administration decided not to spend the money years ago to do the maintenance needed on the benchmarking side. Now we, the paying customer, will pay the price by losing part of the game. Shame on you, Groundspeak, for failing to spend our money wisely. Speaking of spending our money wisely, now I turn to the excuse that the benchmarking code is getting in the way of new and exciting projects. I have no idea what those are because no one has shared that information. Unlike some members of this board I have no faith, based on the last decade of “innovations” some of which have gone by the wayside, that I and many like me will find them a good trade for removing benchmarking. Imagine if the money lost on some of those “innovations” had been directed at upgrading the benchmarking code. Groundspeak likes to talk about the “Language of Location” The language of location in the United States was established by the survey crews that gradually established the network of horizontal and vertical locations that enabled the building of roads and bridges, homes and factories, canals and railroads, cities and towns that made the USA. This was often backbreaking work in inhospitable conditions. It required axe work and lugging surveying chains as often as using precision instruments like theodolites. These precisely measured locations (whether horizontal, vertical or both) are still used today, even in the era of the Global Positioning System, to make sure that water doesn’t flow in the wrong direction, houses aren’t built on the wrong property and for many other reasons. As benchmarkers we have helped find missing markers and reported those that have been destroyed. As august a presence as Dave Doyle, retired NGS chief geodetic surveyor, recently said in the Benchmarking forum “Many thanks to so many who have posted great pictures and hand-held positions that I've been able to harvest and improve the quality of tens of thousands of stations in the National Spatial Reference System.” Perhaps if Jeremy, Bryan, Elias or one of the more public facing lackeys had ever made the hike to station Buttermilk, (https://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=LX4113) the oldest surviving triangulation station in the country, they might have experienced the same sense of awe and history that I did when I visited that site. But none of them did, despite traveling to many parts of the USA to promote Groundspeak and its activities (and, for many of the lackeys, to geocache.) They might have learned with a little research that Ferdinand Hassler, the first superindentent of the US Coast Survey, spent two weeks in June of 1833 with his wagon of instruments and his survey team setting this mark. I’ve been to the Original Stash Plaque and the Tunnel of Light APE cache. They are certainly historical but not remotely in the same class as finding Station Buttermilk. The only things that have come close are finding TU2116 (https://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=TU2116) a benchmark placed by the Republic of Hawaii (check your history boys and girls) in 1896 and GS0206 (https://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=GS0206) a gravity station in Death Valley (there are as many types of “benchmarks” as there are geocaches, some as rare as webcams.) None of the solutions that have been proposed on this forum have the same functionality as the current system. Waymaking does not have the database, NGS DataExplorer does not have the photographs and NOAA certaily does not want recovery notes every few months on the more popular and easily found stations. Finally, eliminating benchmarking from this site would be the equivilant of burning down a unique and valuable library, a library that has played a far more valuable civic role than any other aspect of this hobby. The current situation of low usage and old code is primarliy the result of decisions, conscious or subconscious, made by Groundspeak’s administration over the years. These same people can fix the problem by spending the money to revamp the system and market the activity. To rather spend money to move the hobby further from its roots toward more instant gratification may result in short term gain but long term loss. I urge reconsideration of this decision. Benchmarking is this community’s connection to the history of geolocation. Let’s strengthen that connection, not lose it. Michaelcycle and Susancycle
  3. I got a taste of what when I had a temporary mobility problem. I broke my right ankle while looking for a cache. Finally after almost 3 months I could try to cache again but I had to be careful. So I picked T1 caches. It was a lesson in frustration. I ended up driving sometimes for hours to find a cache I could do wearing an ankle brace and using a cane. I'd walk a kilometre on a nice crushed stone level rail trail and when I was 50m from the cache I'd stare down a steep rocky slope with a little 3 foot wide creek at the bottom that needed to be jumped over. Or I'd get to a cemetery but the cache would be a 50m trek at the back of the cemetery into the woods through thick brush and fallen trees. It happened far too often. I complained here in the forums but got little sympathy. Mostly the talk was about the minutiae of what T1 means. And how handicapped people need to bring someone with them to do the retrieving. Unfortunately few people can empathize with the problem. Why post a cache as a T1 if it isn't actually a flat accessible surface all the way to the cache? At least post a T1.5. Why not err on the side of a terrain rating that is a little higher (a T2+) than too low. It's probably a statistics thing. T1 is probably covetted for grid fillers and challenge enthusiasts. I agree, it is cruel.
  4. Yes, after my recent run-in with this that saw months of cache preparation go down the gurgler, I'll give it as many up-votes as I can. This is supposed to be the Year of the Hide and there's been much talk about the contribution COs make to the game, but this is something that would actually be really helpful to cache owners. The Help Centre says "Solve nearby geocaches, including Mystery and Multi-Caches, to discover hidden stages" but that's of no help once you've found those solved mysteries and multis because all you see on any of the site's maps is a smiley face at the posted coordinates.
  5. Just like GC didn't update the database with new info from NGS, NGS does not have all the recovery info and pictures that have been posted here. Can't compare the two, sadly. Please note, if anyone submits information, to keep it professional, and only update it if it hasn't been in a year or more, OR, if something major has changed. No names, no funny stories. Those are used by professionals, and whatever you put in there is never deleted, never removed, and will be publicly available forever. I'll be removing the links to the GC site from my Android app and GE plugin then. They were useful before, with additional pictures and all, but if they're all gonna be wiped, there's absolutely no reason to link to GC anymore. Whatever this new project is, I won't even be interested. Frankly, if GC shows it 1/10th the love that it showed benchmarks in the last 22 years, the 'new project' will be gone in 5 years, and I don't have the time to set up a new API and program in new info trading for something that's not gonna last. Sadly, same here. I was a premium member for one time, and when BM code updates stopped happening, it wasn't worth it. I don't geocache, it bores me. (And the one time I DID? Someone stole the geocoin.) While the BM Forum has died down to a quiet whisper, I still checked it regularly, and enjoyed the talk and banter. Disappointed, but not surprised that it was going to happen, just am that it happening this soon. [Edited by Moderator to remove potty language.]
  6. This is just another thing that GC is taking away from me, all of those places and logs and pictures that are just going to be deleted forever. My dead husband and I spent many hours, miles and love of a sport that is now going to be gone. I could come here and at least relive those times he and I had together. So, this is truly goodbye GC. On November 1, without our benchmarking logs and without being able to go to Off Topic to talk to friends that I had made there, there will be no reason for me to return. You have caused me many tears and heartache this year. There is nothing else you could do, as we had archived all our caches before John died in 2019. So this year you killed off, Off Topic and now Benchmark Hunting plus deleting all mention of any of the logs and the Benchmark forum as well. I have a very bad case of heartache right now, thanks to a place that we used to love coming to and where I could come to be with people who remembered John. There, I have had my say, and I know it won't mean a whit to anyone. But, it had to be said. Sincerely, Shirley Bloomfield
  7. Wow, that's impressive. I sometimes wish TB's could talk, and let us know the story of their journey between the logs. Was it someone that simply stopped caching and found the TB's after a while and sent them out again? Someone that passed away and their partner / relative / friend set the TB's free? Did someone buy them at a garage sale not knowing what they were? A TB hoarder who was visited by the ghosts of caches past?
  8. Ironic that you include Wherigos on there. Talk about something you all have let stagnate forever that had so much potential that just became quizzes and reverse solvable before you go junk. Benchmarks are a part of history. No move of a level playing field, actually. It's there or it's not. Just like a cache. OMG what a concept. And even when it's not people still log it as a cache. Cool - so other parts of the world don't have benchmarks. SO? Kinda like a HQ or Maze or Giga icon. Sure, maybe they get around, but to the masses? Rationale for this is weak. Nobody: Nobody: Cachers: Benchmarkers: Newbies: Literally nobody ever in any way shape or form: Groundspeak: Yeah, let's go ahead and stop doing something that takes us literally no effort and that, while only a small group of people love it they really do love it, and just up and cancel it for no reason whatsoever with nominal notice and call it 'progress'.
  9. I should clarify: the OP is more than welcome to learn how to tree/rock/whatever-climb. I'm not trying to gatekeep this sport. But because it's being presented as "I want to find a couple caches that are high up in trees, where can I buy rope?", I am anxious for the OPs safety. It is not the right mindset here. The question they really should have asked is "where can I learn how to climb trees/rocks/whatever safety." OP: Learn how to climb rocks/trees/whatever in a rock/tree/whatever-climbing class. Use the gear provided by instructors. Make sure you are comfortable. Talk to the instructors. They will be more than happy to help you find rope, harnesses, etc. They are the experts, not random strangers on a Geocaching forum.
  10. For one, rock-climbing courses are generally more accessible than tree-climbing courses. But also, that's not the point. It is in no way a waste of time and money. My goal for the OP is for them to: Get comfortable with ropes, harnesses, belay devices, etc. in a safe, indoor setting before going outside. If they can find anything advertised as "tree-climbing lessons"; great—but I doubt it. Rock climbing lessons are similar enough that they will accomplish this same goal. Take a fall themselves or watch someone take a fall and realize that maybe climbing (anything) is really, really, dangerous. It is not a skill that can just be picked up for the sake of finding some caches; no, it needs to be learned separately. Actually talk to people (face-to-face!) about their goals and reasons, instead of asking random faceless strangers on the internet. Even if climbing gym staff aren't experts on tree climbing, they will be able to say smart things (and possibly even talk OP out of this.)
  11. TL;NGR (Too Long;Not Gonna Read) – Has anyone else noticed a recent trend of more caches being archived than new caches being published? Or is it a local thing? A fairly recent trend seems to be occurring in my area (Northern California, SF Bay Area in general) and it’s really beginning to get to me. It’s something I’m hoping to turn into something positive, but it will take some effort and right now it’s just something I need to talk about and see if it is just me! Maybe it's just part of the natural flow of things - survivial of the fittest (caches) and it's time for a purge? I have notifications set up for newly published caches and archived caches in my local area. It’s pretty cache “rich”, there are a lot of caches by many CO’s, and lots of variety, and we don’t have to go too far to find enough caches to meet whatever souvenir or promo HQ comes up with. Typically, (based on my 5 years of geocaching experience) the newly published caches outnumber the archives by a good margin; 10-12 new caches a week vs maybe 1 archived is a good estimate (discounting events, and within my home radius of 25 miles). The past several months have seen a reversal – I’ll get more archive notifications than new caches. In September for example, 24 caches have been archived by CO’s, and 3 by Reviewers “cleaning up” and the explanation is that the CO has not responded to DNF’s or requests to check on the status. Of those archived by the CO’s, some don’t give a reason, but of those that do, it’s due to the area not being a good place anymore – homeless camps, trash dumps, construction – whatever, there seem to be many areas no longer conducive to hosting a geocache. And the new cache notifications? There have been 7 new caches, and 4 events published so far this month. So, is it just this area? Are others seeing this? I recently archived one of my hides due to homeless activity too close to the previously good hiding spot, and changed another to a different style hide to hopefully make it less attractive to vandals – but it’s not the experience I wanted for that final on the mystery series. And my reaction, other than being frustrated and feeling the need to archive hides, is to find better places to hide caches. But better places and better caches take time and effort, which I am willing to do – as long as people still enjoy finding what I hide! My newest cache has only one find to date (published Aug. 30), and it’s a puzzle, so I know it’s not one that will be found by casual cachers. Still, 1 find in nearly a month is unusual for this area.
  12. Not wishing to sound negative, but these days that's not as easy as it looks. Some years back, a large multinational media company bought up all the regional newspapers in Australia and, under the pretext of COVID, shut down the print editions and put the online editions behind their national newspaper's paywall. Notwithstanding, though, there have been occasional radio segments about geocaching, both on the local radio stations and the state-wide broadcaster, and I think at one time a presenter on one of the local stations was actually a geocacher. We also had a mega nearby in 2018 that got a lot of local publicity and I'm pretty sure Geocaching NSW ran a series of newcomer-welcoming events in recent times. As far as I can tell, though, this type of publicity has a pretty low success rate, with most of the longer-term cachers around here coming into the game by either knowing an existing cacher or discovering it through their own browsings. I saw it in an article in an outdoor adventure magazine, though I'd heard of it prior to that but hadn't paid it much attention, but it was only by actually going out into the bush on my own terms and finding some caches that I really got hooked. Just reading about it, listening to a talk or even watching a demonstration won't do that. I don't know what the number of cachers as a percentage of population is nationally but I'd imagine it'd be pretty low, probably about one in ten thousand. The muggle population of my local area (the Woy Woy Peninsula) is about 36,000 and the whole of the Central Coast is about ten times that, so our number of cachers probably isn't that low as a percentage, it's just we don't have very many people to start with. I think the bigger problem we have here is that the focus of the game has shifted from outdoor adventure to quick points-scoring. The newer P&G caches around here don't seem to have any shortage of finders, like GX8P7PD at Terrigal that was published in April and has 23 finders, or GC92TXE at Mooney Mooney that was published in February and has 21 finds. Top of the list on the Central Coast is the Adventure Lab bonus cache GC9M49Z that was published in January and has 35 finds. It's the bushland hides that are really languishing, like GC9QR5W that's only had one finder (me) since it was published in April, yet I really think it's the non-P&G hides that keep people in the game long-term. For me at any rate, if the only caches available in 2013 had been mint tins in parking lot guard rails, I'd have lost interest in a matter of weeks.
  13. Your town has caches owned by several different folks that are at least logging into the website in the last few weeks and granted 200ish caches within 30 miles is not a large amount I bet the number of folks that feel similarly are higher than you'd guess. My point is business as usual is not going to change things so try something different, all we hear is doom and gloom. From old GS blog: "`But there might be one you own that most local geocachers have already found and the location is not frequented by tourists. It could be time to archive it and free up the area, or you might consider creating a new and improved cache!" As I recall this blog post was not well received here, but I agree with it. Talk to the local hiders. Try something new something different. Encourage your unknown neighbors to hide new caches. Not everyone goes to events so they may be out there. Take that rusty tin with mushy log and throw it away and replace it with a shiny new cache. I had a local cacher approach me if I wanted to join their competition to find lonely caches as I had recently found 2, do something with hides maybe. Click on any new finders and see if they are local and encourage them to join. Just trying to help
  14. Why do some people drive 10 mph under the speed limit in the left lane? Why do some people sit directly behind you in an almost empty movie theater, then talk throughout the movie? It's because they're jerks, and they're doing it because they can. If they get a reaction from you, it's all the better for them. Sadly, there's not much you can do about them - jerks will always find a way to be a jerk.
  15. It's only "lost" if you don't provide it - that's what the description is for. You can't get the whole grasp of a cache's difficulty and terrain from the D/T rating only, but it's a good place to start. The cache description is a good place to talk about the specifics of the rating, and how it applies to your particular cache. Add necessary attributes (boat/watercraft required, etc) and someone looking at the whole of the cache page can get a good idea of what's in store when they go after your cache.
  16. Let me put it to you very simply. Yes, if you waved the American Flag and posted an exhortation on your cache page to vote for this guy or that guy, or call your Congressman about this issue or that, or even posted a picture of the UNofficial POW/MIA flag, then THIS American and most likely every other on the site who 'gets' what we're doing here would complain about you. This is my HOBBY. This is not my CAUSE. There isn't ANY other space on the internet where I can talk about how pretty my wife's garden is without being subjected to political rancor from all sides and accosted by commercial noise looking to separate me from my money. This is my HOBBY. NO agendas, meaning no CAUSES. Your cache pages should be about what you hid and where you hid it. Creativity and distraction, subterfuge and humor, brain-teasers and plain-text "GO FIND" descriptions are all great and welcome, but DO NOT try to convince me of anything, here in my HOBBY. ------------------ Even seemingly innocuous stuff like a cache page dedicated to collecting money to rebuild a school, or establish a foundation, or send a kid to camp has downsides. Everybody who went to that school would start posting about how bad it was or how great it was instead of what we SHOULD be reading here, and people would complain about the Foundation and the people of this or that persuasion who would inappropriately benefit, or the MYRIAD of complaints I've read about inner-city kids and camps, and suddenly we're a Social Media site. Then, there'll be the claims of bias because THAT Foundation gets a cache page and MINE doesn't, and if it's successful at collecting money, they EVERYBODY who likes money would go through the minimal bother of getting a Cache Page approved, and we're a opportunistic fund-raising site. Then, there's the inevitable physical backlash against your cache by morons who don't believe in YOUR agenda, or worse, by ones who DO! So, keep your opinions and your causes to yourself,....HERE. GS bites back on this rule fiercely (I hope ...still) because it's such a slippery slope. The description of my second cache was rejected because I used the word 'CHEVY', as in, "I was riding in my Chevy". "Commercial tie-in", I was told. I didn't really grok it then, but I do now. It makes NO difference to me whether or not I agree with you and your agenda; take it somewhere else. This...is...a...refuge. There are so many aspects of this thing of ours that are uncharacteristic of the 'internet', that we need to protect it vigorously. I'm out in the woods having a good time, and I don't want to have to weed through everybody's carp when I'm battling mosquitos. </Rant>
  17. Our Prague Giga trip we talk about playing AL and how those could be shown in app. Now creator can select AL start location and it could be miles away where is actual visit loacations. This should be change to sequential AL. If LAB creator select sequential order then lab location should be in main map latest unvisited location. It would be helpful to all players. Also in non-sequential LAB start point should show in middle point of unvisited locations. In progress LABs should view in map different color dot. Now all is viewed in green and then you need open filter to find "in progress" labs.
  18. Is there any LACKEY here who is able to say something to the problem? We can talk all day but only Groundspeak staff can do something about it - or say that they don't care what problems we have and that having emojis as first sign is more important than the conviniece of GARMIN users. @Moun10Bike or others, can you contribute something or give this suggestion to your technicians if you agree? Jochen
  19. "Desaster Memorials" seems to fit best - even if there are three different desasters. I would talk to bluesnote on this topic - he is officer in the category and helped me with a memorial half a year ago. "Graves of the Unknown" might be a bit tricky as it is a mass grave and the description states that they want unknown individuals. "Graves Mentioning a Cause of Death" came also to my mind, but might also be a bit tricky, because they want to have the names of the ones buried (see WM14TJK as an example). Perhaps Keith as an officer of that category might offer an insight on that.
  20. Yes, the Hanford B Reactor tour is exactly this. It's a free tour of a facility that's really critical to the history of our area, and the tour is really very well done, but a lot of people still haven't done it. I'm hoping to talk to the DOE person tomorrow, so fingers crossed! Meantime, what do you guys think about these logging questions? I'm not really sure of the year-to-year longevity of the #1 requirement, and if it changes (or the others) then the questions could get dropped, or I'll have to go on another tour and come up with more questions! 1. In the large Front Face Room, to the left there is a large diorama of the facility, with red buttons to light up the different areas. How many red buttons are there on this display? 2. In the Valve Pit Room, there's a Safety News bulletin on the wall. How many safe hours are announced on this bulletin? 3. In the Control Room, there's an old calendar on the wall. It says "Hanford Project" on the top of the calendar. What is the latest month/year on the calendar, down in the bottom right corner? 4. If you go back past the Exhaust & Intake Fans, you'll find a mural painted on the wall. It says, "I need you on the job... Full time" at the top. Here you see mention of HEW--what does HEW stand for? Finally, one last request to help prove you were there: 5. Please include in your log a photo of your favorite room. ( But please don't include a photo that gives away answers to the above questions )
  21. I think the OP may have moved on. At least they have not visited the site since the very day of the first post. 11 found caches in 20 years, talk about low-intensity caching...
  22. Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. I am taking Joe_L's advice to heart and sleeping on it a bit. And I've been looking more into Moun10Bike's suggestion of the Hanford B Reactor and that's actually a fantastic suggestion. So I went on the tour and it was really good. I think it would make a great virtual. I have it all written up but when I asked the tour people for permission they really balked at the idea. "We'll have to ask our Department of Energy liaison." Ouch. I haven't heard back yet. It may be a lost cause. I'm going to try to call them today and see if I can talk to that DOE person directly.
  23. When we first started, folks would talk about "the Garmin/Magellan factor", and we thought they were just trying to BS the noobs. - But we'd notice a 26' difference between the two, and knowing who uses what at the time, saw that most came true.
  24. When interacting with other people, it's important to distinguish what you consider "poor behavior" from what, to an impartial observer, is a difference of opinion. I spoke up here precisely because I thought the consensus here is wrong. And if there's an established guideline that supports you, I'm not aware of it because the only commonly cited standard is to keep TBs moving, and these are moving. And even if there is something in the guidelines, it couldn't be called "established" because I regularly see this behavior. Anyway, the point remains that you should approach this as a difference of opinion, not being judgemental with your "good behavior" vs. their "bad behavior". Saying "you are behaving badly" -- an accurate reflection of your opinion -- is not significantly different from saying "you're a jerk" even if you feel better about it. Setting a time limit is actually part of this wrong thinking. If you don't like what they're doing but you are respectful of their point of view, you don't have to wait a month. You can talk to them as soon as you notice. The whole idea of "one month or two?" is based on the assumption that they're doing something wrong, so you want to give them some time to come to their senses or whatever. They aren't doing anything wrong, they just aren't doing what you'd like them to do because until you tell them, they won't know what you want them to do. Sure, some of them might not listen to you. Some might even be annoyed what you talk to them. I don't know. But I do know it's more likely they're react negatively if you come at them with "poor behavior"....or even if they're quietly reading this thread and know you're thinking "poor behavior" even though you try to pretty it up in your messages.
  25. If you can eliminate the presumption of "poor behavior", the best course is to contact them and discuss it with them. They've been geocaching a long time. You have not. If you talk it over with them, you can get better insight into what they think they're doing. My guess is that they are under the impression that TB owners like to see their TBs travel, and that most TOs don't really care whether the TBs stop in any particular cache so they can pass from person to person. That might very well be because that's what they like for their TBs. And since it's happen to you multiple times with various geocachers, it sounds like a cultural position in your area you need to be aware of. Like you, I'm not that interested in mindless visits to vast numbers of run-of-the-mill caches. If you talk to them, you can explain your feelings about it to them. But it won't get you very far if you start by accusing them of being jerks. Yes, it's true, some of them may have entirely forgotten that they grabbed the TB and don't know where they put it, but even if that's the case, it will be counterproductive to lead with that possibility. But, actually, that seems unlikely to me because these are seasoned geocachers. If they're acting poorly, they must be doing this with hundreds of TBs by now, and that's hard for me to believe. So I'd assume they have the mistaken belief that they're doing good over the possibility that they're doing it for no particular reason just because they're not nice people.
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