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In that thread it turns out that many of those COs were not actually maintaining those caches. They had strings of DNFs, NMs, no OMs, reviewer notes and disables. I see that you were rewarded a Virtual. And looking at your stats I'd say well deserved. You have a reasonable amount of hides that you look after without getting a reviewer involved. You even check your caches just to check if they're still in good order. The anti-algorithm talk and 'why don't I get to own a virtual' protests spoke volumes.

BAD NEWS about the Myncaster station. I stopped by there today and was able to talk with a farmer just north of it. What appears on satellite views, in the vicinity of where the station once was, is an old barn & hay shed. The Myncaster station was moved north and west from there some time ago and has since been destroyed. SOB, SOB! Keith

You see, that's why analogy's don't really work all that well as arguments. Money = FP's breaks down because you are spending any money given by an employer (even investing is giving that money to someone else to "hold" for you) which you don't do with FP's. Employee of the Month is handled very differently with each list. So trying to force one thing (FP's) into another model (money) only works just so far. So let's quit arguing about a poor analogy, talk about FP's and goals in "awarding" or "collecting" them.

My first Geocaching experience was in 2008, right when the activity had gained a lot of traction. One of my extended relatives asked me if I had heard of Geocaching. I forget the exact explanation he used, but I was very intrigued. My cousins and I hopped in the car and joined the search with my relative. I didn't find any of the caches (they were all micros), but the people with me did. I signed my name and the rest is history. I think the best way to get muggles into it is to talk about it. I usually bring up the names of trails I walk and mention Geocaching. They either give me a puzzled look or a "Yeah I've heard about it." Also, there is a trend on Tik Tok that I learned of recently, so a lot of younger people are being introduced to it that way. Last week, I found a cache in front of some muggles. They asked what I was doing and I explained Geocaching to them. They responded positively, so I might have helped a "wizard" discover themselves! My favorite is to just ask a muggle if they want to go Geocaching with me. I've done this maybe once and it was a good time.

This makes no sense. FPs are used in so many different ways for so many different reasons that if you're concerned about what they mean for others, it means you probably shouldn't use them at all as there's no way you can use your FP in a manner that means the same for everyone else. You're basically saying that someone who gives a FP for a FTF (it certainly happens) or gives a FP to the cache because they know the CO (this happens as well) should factor into your decision to award a FP the same way someone who gives a FP for an amazing location or a FP for a rewarding caching experience from start to end. How will you ever be able to meet the expectation for every reason a FP is awarded? You earned the FP and it's yours to give as you deem warranted. Why should someone else's thoughts about what they believe a FP means factor into your decision to award your FP to a cache? Cerberus provided the appropriate link to rebut this. Some cachers did (and still do) use it that way but that was never the overriding intent. It was only an addition that allowed cachers to add FPs to caches for whatever reason they felt like awarding one. I've added them for a cool creative container, the amazing location, the total experience from start to finish, for a cache placed in remembrance of a caching friend, for the opportunity to talk to an Amish gentleman in a cemetery and learn the history of the church and the community, and for other reasons. I guarantee that many cachers wouldn't have found the cache where I was talking to the Amish man a "good" cache. It was just a micro container along a fence line in a cemetery. The experience I had was what made that cache FP worthy. If I were ever over in @barefootjeff's neck of the woods, you can bet I'd look at the caches he's given FPs to because we appear to have similar tastes in cache experiences. I do use FPs to help filter caches when going to a new area for a family vacation. Caches that I ordinarily might remove from my list stay on it due to the number of FPs it has accrued. Sometimes the cache turns out to be worth it while other times it is a dud of a cache. They will never guarantee a good/great experience since they're awarded for too many various reasons to be consistent. However, the odds are usually a bit better than just some randomly filtered out caches with far less (or none) FPs.

First off I'm not picking on this person, not going to say what cache it is or who placed it, but I did want to talk about it and see if you had any similar experiences. Was alerted of a geocache recently published near me last night so I went out but was unable to find it. Sent the OP a message asking for a hint, and they directed me pretty far from the coordinates, about 20-30 feet away. I went back this morning with the hint and lo and behold tossed in the bushes pretty far away was just a simple GLAD container with 2 pieces of blank scrap paper, a clothespin, and a rubber eraser. FTF, hooray? I checked out their profile and this person joined only a couple weeks ago with 3 finds and 3 hides. I understand not everyone has money to spend on official geocaching containers and crazy swag, and in a cute way this is basically geocaching at its essence in a little Tupperware container, but would any of you been happy to find this after searching 2 different days for a total of maybe an hour and a half? There's a reason why Geocaching recommends you find something like 20 caches before hiding your own. Honestly when I saw it in the bush I thought it was some random trash someone threw out of their car window as they passed by, I know you've all seen the type of stuff I'm referring to while hunting. The placement was also super strange. I'm going to message the OP and mention that there is a big tree absolutely perfect for hiding this in about 20 feet up the trail, with lots of holes and hiding spots. Tossed in a random bush by the side of the road way off the coordinates is not fun to find for anyone. Anyway, hopefully I can work with this new player to maybe help them and make this cache better, and was wondering if you guys have any similar stories? Have any worse experiences? All things considered it's not THAT bad, so I know you guys must have some horror stories worth sharing.

Check the list in my post above from Feb 17. It is from the same source. I watch both to see if any new ones are added. It's all "GPS". Different countries put different names on their own systems, though. (g.e., EU = Galileo, Russia = GLONASS, China = BeiDou, etc). It's a competitive environment. When we're talking about L5, it's strictly a US issue. The U.S. govt is still calling the L5 signals from Block III 'pre-operational' and won't be considered fully operational until 24 of the Block III birds are up and broadcasting. That isn't anticipated for some years. Not sure when Lockheed-Martin will be done getting the last of the IIIC units into orbit. Looks like SVN 74 (PRN 4) is up and running and healthy since mid-January 2020. That said, I fully expect nav companies to use any 'healthy' L5 signals to augment what's already in the air long before all 24 are up. In order to deal with things like Galileo, a receiver has to be looking in the right place. While we've been talking about L1/L2/L5, you have to then look at Galileo as E1, E5/E5a/E5b, and E6. Whether the chip maker covers the whole spread varies between manufacturers and chips within their families. All of them talk about civilian accuracy in the 3m range.

Talk about an EVIL hide! I read in the news about the astronaut who dove down to the deepest accessible area on the ocean floor. Who knows, perhaps our diving technology will improve and sunken shipwrecks will become Wherigos. A really neat Earthcache would be the volcanic vents on the ocean floor. I couldn't imagine placing physical containers in shipwrecks, WAY too dangerous/unethical in some cases.

The OP is clearly asking about the "unofficial GeoTour" meaning of "GeoTrail," so let's talk about that.

If one of my caches (usually an obscure puzzle) was coming up to a year unfound I used to flag it up on the local Facebook group as people in the UK like to "resuscitate" caches (find them more than a year since previous find) - I've left all the FB groups since they became dominated by talk of "if you go caching, everyone will die" type talk in April, though. (Culprits now often back FTFing like there's no tomorrow...) On a general maintenance theme, I've replaced about 7 of my caches this year - in most cases winter flooding and winds to blame for missing containers. Not put out a new cache for a long long time. Just looking through my hides - one series put out in April 2018, never revisited (about 35 finds on each so paper not full); another series Jan 2019, only visited the trailhead one for TB dropping. Similar number of finds. I think one bison might have lost its rubber ring but the weather has been so dry since March I'm not worried. Trad placed Sep 2017 never been back. Another Aug 2016. Puzzle placed April 2013, looked at but never touched since placement. It's a black-painted snail on the back of a black-painted urban bus stop and has never been muggled. Aren't I naughty? I think 25 of my 85 active caches have had the container replaced though.

I am having the same issues as the ones posted above. I have contacted Groundspeak and have received the same answer back as the others. I have contacted my internet provider and also contacted my carrier AT&T which I spent nearly an hour on the phone with. The one I was talking to even went higher up the food chain to no advail. They said the only way they could really tell why i am not receiving my text notifications would be to follow a text from start to finish but I don’t have a clue how to give them an origin for a text that I am no longer getting. It seems like they need to talk to someone at Groundspeak to follow the transaction from start to finish. If you will furnish me that number I would be glad to contact AT&T and give it to them.

I've got a great idea - Let's put out a new category in peer review on a US holiday weekend so that hardly any US waymarkers can look at it! Nice. It's also another great idea to never have had it discussed in the forums. You aren't really requiring photos - you're saying screengrabs are okay. This is a violation of Groundspeak terms of service if those "screengrabs" happen to belong to someone else on another platform like Facebook, Twitter, etc., where the original photographer and the platform hold a copyright. You have to agree to terms of service for each waymark you post and violating that terms of service can get the waymarker who "screengrabs" the picture of the rooftop garden in trouble with Groundspeak and with the copyright holder. Groundspeak Terms of Service You agree not to: "viii - Upload, post, transmit, or otherwise distribute any content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other intellectual property, or proprietary rights of any person, including without limitation under any privacy or publicity rights. xi - Violate any applicable local, state, national, or international law." How are people supposed to visit these, especially if they are private rooftop gardens? There is no mention of this in the writeup? What kind of long description are you requiring? Where does one get the coordinates for the garden, especially for a private one that they cannot physically visit, but can only take a picture from afar? What about trespassing and voyeur laws, especially for these private gardens where you would be taking photo from locations outside the garden? If you are shooting from another location, you could be violating privacy laws, which I know for a fact a very strict in California and are very strict in Europe. With that said, that would be a violation of, again, Terms of Service 11. You also speak of playgrounds - why both? Again, people who own these are going to have SERIOUS issues of people taking long range photos of their kids on a private playground. This category isn't well thought-out; it is not well written-out; and frankly, and it definitely has the possibility of being downright illegal. This is why you should always bring these new category ideas to the Forums first. Talk to me on the above, clear up the concerns. There is a hole where this category might fill, possibly, but how can you document these without violating the owners privacy and, just as importantly, how could someone visit these waymarks? I have published the above as my response in peer review.

A false-positive test will do that. It happens. They don't talk about it.

What's dangerous for one child isn't necessarily dangerous for another child. Children learn from parents, peers, teachers, friends about what constitutes safe actions vs what constitutes unsafe actions and they learn those things at different ages. They don't learn it from osmosis, so your point about a child's age not mattering is also not a valid point. Let's use your railroad example. Let's say the child caching with you is 15. By this time, there's a strong likelihood that they realize trains will either severely injure you or kill you if you get too close to them due to their weight, being told by parents and peers, seeing movies/videos, etc... Now let's look at the 3 year old. Their exposure to trains is probably limited to Thomas the Train or The Little Engine That Could. They see familiar faces and trains that talk, are friendly, and are things that have feelings and the ability to do things that people do. They're not things to be cautious about because they haven't learned that yet. They see them as things that they can interact with. The "choo choo" is a friend, not a 300,000 pound engine that can't stop in time to avoid hitting, maiming, crushing, or killing a toddler that doesn't know any better. The same goes for caches near ponds, which was another point brought up. At some point, the dangers of drowning are learned by a child. Until that point is learned though, we do what we can to keep them safe. We have kiddie pools (where drowning can still occur) that are shallow and make sure to watch them. We provide PFDs. We teach them how to swim. There's no specific age for every child where they learn the potential hazards of water. So let's look at the 15 year old at a cache near a pond. They see water and they realize that it's something that has the potential to kill them but have learned how to swim, whether or not the body of water is safe to swim in, whether or not there could be potentially dangerous things in the pond (alligators, red tides, jellyfish) and what to look for to determine that, and various other things that they may have learned in order to keep themselves safe. A 3 year old sees a body of water and associates it with a kiddie pool, even though it may have current, is considerably deeper than the kiddie pool, and may have dangerous animals in or around it. They haven't learned all the coping mechanisms that the 15 year old has learned so they don't understand the inherent danger like the 15 year old does.

A broken plastic container with a log so wet that it's unsignable, by a cache owner that 9 times out of 10 has left the game.. if that's vandalism, then I contend you just replied just to hear yourself talk. But with 10,000 more posts than me I should have expected that.

You're clearly enthusiastic about geocaching and want to talk about it. That's a great thing. However, you're not an expert at this yet. While it's ok to share your opinions, I think some of your posts come across as the only way to do things, and not all of them have been what I would consider the preferred technique. I've been at this for over 13 years now and am closing in on 10,000 finds. I think it's fair to say we have a decent amount of experience at this point. But at the end of the day, I am just one geocacher, and I don't pretend to have all the answers. I try to share my experience, opinions, recommendations, or my personal approach as only that, and not as the "right answer." I don't always remember to do it that way, but that's how I try to approach things: rather than telling someone what to do, I post about what I have done, or what I have seen, or what I think, or what I'd recommend. All in all, this forum is pretty well behaved compared to some other corners of the internet. And if nothing else, we all have at least one thing in common: we are all interested in geocaching. So don't lose heart. But for now, perhaps consider sitting back and doing some more reading, to inform your opinions and experience some more, and asking questions instead of answering them.

I've read a couple threads about Covid-19 and caching, and it got me to thinking: With all of this talk of social distancing and PPE, would there be a legitimate case for cachers to create virtual caches? What are your thoughts?

Yes, but if this happens with a GPS, you're in the same boat. Whether GPS or Phone, if you plan to go out of cell range, you must plan ahead. And just to reiterate, only the Oregon 700 and GPSMap66 series have live geocaching abilities, and this must be paired with either a wifi connection or your cell phone's data to work. They do not connect to 4g/5g natively. Otherwise, you must plan ahead with a GPS for all geocaching activities. Pocket queries are your friend either way. No GPS connects to the website anymore. The communicator plugins are no longer supported. A newer model will interface with GPX files and geocaches better than the 60 series. Again, you could go back to the Colorado series (not recommended) or even a 62(s) to get this functionality at an inexpensive price point, though current models have removed the limit on the number of geocaches you can load, making them great for larger trips. I'm not trying to talk you out of a new GPS, just give you an accurate portrayal of their limitations along with the functionality of your phone. I'd hate to see you drop $3-400 and be disappointed. That said, when you work within the limitations, the GPS can be more useful than the phone. But both will get the job done.

Hello, if this is an important place for your children why don't you tell something about it in the listing? Isn't there more to tell as Talk about the place, why is it special to you!? That's some part of the spirit of a geocache and with a good listing (you might even add pictures) you might get better logs than the FTF log.... Without a listing this cache might look as a statistics point ("+1") and I think it is much more than that to you. Tell us! You can still edit the listing. Have fun with your cache! Jochen

In my (limited) experience, younger kids are not excited as much by finding something sneaky as by riffling through "treasure." On the other hand, once the local kids find out about the box of toys in the park, it's doomed. Besides counting, you could use colors. Or multiple choice. "If the bench is green, keep going straight ahead. If it is brown, turn left." You could put a simple jigsaw puzzle in the first or second stage. Put the puzzle together to see the coordinates. Or a photo of the final location. Treasure map? Maybe you could make it spy-themed. Talk about spy gadgets and tell them they are looking for something small that is a disguise, and what it can hold (the logbook).

Where did I say they are ONLY in it for that +1? You're reading things that aren't there. I said it makes it more interesting for people wanting a +1 to go caching in groups. Good for you! My experience comes from reading logs and THIS THREAD (and other threads). Yes, people are probably as friendly as anywhere else but as far as geocaching goes we're keeping to ourselves (a plus in these times ). We avoid events and avoid the new caches placed for events. Standing in line to write in the log is not my idea of fun. The few friends we have in geocaching we know a lot longer, they are radio amateurs that we see during club meetings and "on air" but geocaching is almost never a topic of conversation. No problem to have a talk when (and if) we come across other geocachers but we wouldn't call them "friends".

When I log a find on a cache that involves climbing, be it a tree or on rocks, I'm not claiming to have climbed the thing, all I'm claiming is that I signed the cache's logbook. In fact I'll state quite clearly in my log that I used a ladder instead of picking my way up through the branches, or rope, a grabbing tool, an agile friend or a borrowed child. For the latter, there's a cache near here where the CO says on the cache page, "In order to find this cache you will have to be agile and non-claustrophobic. Or just talk one of the youngin's into doing the dirty work for you." After trying to squeeze into the narrow space and fearing I might become stuck, I instead took the CO's advice and used the services of a youngin.

Congratulations to Alfouine for determining the extraction point of CONTROL's top agents. Your hard work is much appreciated. You have been declared CONTROL's #4 Agent! The Chief would like to again thank Agent 72, CONTROL's #3 Agent for all his work in decoding the secret message from Max and 99. Outstanding job! For everyone else, here is the solution: Max and 99's profile; News Articles Posted. Use first letter of waymark title. Code uses what3words (geocaching toolbox can help) This is a secret message from CONTROL's top agents Max and Ninety Nine. KAOS is close. Tell the Chief we need extraction from Frogs Brain Water. End of message. Toyota accidentally hits bridal shop - OKC, OK Hearing aid company closes, owing customers money - OKC, OK In-crisis youth have safe place to ask for help with community partners - OKC, OK Seniors served by Mobile Meals - Edmond, OK In-and-Out Burger receives Excellent rating from health inspection - Tucson, AZ State google design finalist at Carl Albert Middle School - MWC, OK Angry Crab has new owner - Tucson, AZ Sheriff announces Logan County a 2nd Amendment Sanctuary County - Guthrie, OK Emergency childcare offered by YMCA to health care workers and first responders - Edmond, OK Christian Heritage Academy has a superfan! - Del City, OK Relatives fight to bury loved one at Ft. Lowell Cemetery - Tucson, AZ El Reno Cemetery graves damaged - El Reno, OK. Tiger Time helps students get ready for learning - OKC, OK Midwest City to temporarily close Senior Center to protect against Coronavirus - MWC, OK EPS provides free meals to kids during closure - Edmond, OK Spanish teacher at Carl Albert High School named teacher of the Month - Midwest City, OK Signs outside churches display different views on guns - OKC, OK Animal welfare accused of poor treatment of a dog in their care - OKC, OK Greek restaurant the target of theft - OKC, OK Everyone asked to leave 21c Museum Hotel for cleaning - OKC, OK Finance taught at Apollo Elementary - Bethany, OK Restaurants brace for economic impact of Coronavirus - OKC, OK OKC church holds college and career fair - OKC, OK Maker's Mark dinner raises money for The Center of Family Love - OKC, OK College counselor allegedly gave AP tests early - OKC, OK Old Paris Flea Market the site of a drive-by shooting - OKC, OK No one injured in car fire at On Cue - OKC, OK Thousands of dollars of product stolen from dispensary - Bethany, OK Restaurants you can support with takeout during the pandemic - Edmond, OK OKC Police talk man down from cell tower - OKC, OK Loved Bishop Moreno buried at Holy Hope Cemetery - Tucson, AZ Sale of GFF Foods in Moore - Moore, OK The story behind Goldie the Robot - Tuscaloosa, AL One dead at SW OKC gun range - OKC, OK Piedmont girl asks for donations to hospital instead of birthday gifts - Bethany, OK All SWOSU classes to be held online - Weatherford, OK Group voices concerns over 5G technology - OKC, OK Elementary students who will run to remember receive a gift - OKC, OK New medical treatment helps woman with breast cancer illness - OKC, OK Truck and chains used in attempted theft of ATM - OKC, OK Soldier surprises daughter at Mustang school - Mustang, OK Medical Center needs volunteers to sew face masks - Stillwater, OK A Kerr Middle teacher is back in the classroom after using a racial slur - Del City, OK Xrays and other non emergency imaging postponed at Mercy Clinics - OKC, OK Authorities need help identifying man who stole from a metro pharmacy - OKC, OK New indoor play area in OKC - Oklahoma City, OK DHS urging daycares to remain open - OKC, OK No membership fees at Spontaneity Kid Care for First Responders - OKC, OK Investigators need help identifying suspect in credit union robbery - OKC, OK Nature Center at Martin Park and OKC Rec Centers to close during pandemic - OKC, OK Employees of Love's getting raises and bonuses - OKC, OK Those who served honored at Dorset Memory Care - OKC, OK Youth offered free day camp during teacher walkout - Edmond, OK New carpet and renovation for Woods Memorial Library - Tucson, AZ Investigation into Dove Charter Schools - OKC, OK News 9 practicing social distancing - OKC, OK Exercise workouts offered online amid Coronavirus - Edmond, OK KOCO names Coyle math teacher "Teacher of the Month" - Coyle, OK Alleged fight over parking spot leads to shooting - OKC, OK Oro Valley Library now county run - Oro Valley, AZ Sioux City man is riding a new Harley around town - Sioux City, IA Importance of new Sunday liquor sales discussed - Moore, OK Stop signs near James L. Dennis Elementary to stay - OKC, OK Covid-19 testing could be expanded by private labs - OKC, OK Large fire at Fox Building Supply - OKC, OK OKC Memorial Marathon date change affects runners - Edmond, OK Shots fired at Buy for Less - OKC, OK Eight city manager of Bethany in three years to resign - Bethany, OK Teacher at Wellston School arrested - Wellston, OK Employee who was fired threatens nursing home - OKC, OK Loaded gun stolen from a customer's car - OKC, OK Last Frontier Council won't be affected by BSA bankruptcy filing - OKC, OK The Lodge at Brookline implementing sanitization stations for visitors - OKC, OK Himalayan restaurant to open - Stillwater, OK Employee refuses to speak native language so customer ransacks store - OKC, OK Crossings Community Church to close campuses amid coronavirus - OKC, OK Homes destroyed by Langston fire - Langston, OK Impersonating a cop at Tumbleweed gets man arrested - Stillwater, OK Early morning discovery of body at ULM - Monroe, Louisiana Fire at Summerfield Apartments - OKC, OK Washing facilities lacking at Putnam City High School - OKC, OK Earlywine parents receive email about possible exposure to coronavirus - Moore, OK No plans to close, says University of Alabama - Tuscaloosa, AL Education a focus at Lost Creek Safari - Stillwater, OK EMT dies from injuries received in motorcycle accident - OKC, OK Del Taco coming to Stillwater - Stillwater, OK Edmond school board approved Heritage expansion - Edmond, OK Xeriscape Garden created at Edmond park - Edmond, OK Tulsa University moves to online classes - Tulsa, OK Red Dog Saloon bouncer is stabbed - OKC, OK A stabbing victim was dumped at Guthrie Hospital - Guthrie, OK Coronavirus concerns has local pharmacies out of supplies - OKC, OK Thelma Parks Elementary students show their Black History Month projects - OKC, OK Igloo dining experience available at Dominion House - Guthrie, OK Oklahoma City Blvd. causing confusion for drivers - OKC, OK National championship earned by Southmoore Pom - Moore, OK Families of homicide victims applaud decision to resume executions - OKC, OK Robbery at Metro Family Dollar - OKC, OK Oldest Catholic School in Oklahoma might be closing - Guthrie, OK Major developments coming to the downtown area - Edmond, OK Freak accident takes the life of a Lexington student - Lexington, OK Recruiter for OC fired after activity at Harding Charter Preparatory High School - OKC, OK Officer of school PTA investigated - Norman, OK Gas powered saw used to break into Best Buy - Moore, OK School Principal leaving after 17 years at Jackson Elementary - Norman, OK Bill would allow the state to withhold funds from cities that don't follow federal immigration laws - Norman, OK Residents frustrated by Paycom traffic - OKC, OK Artwork installed at Little River Park - Moore, OK Instruments donated to OKC Middle School - OKC, OK NASA's Name the Rover contest finalist at Norman High School - Norman, OK Water tank repainting to cause temporary lane closure at Baumann and Ayers - Edmond, OK Alfredo's hosts fundraiser for Autism - Moore, OK There are many Little Free Libraries in Tucson! - Tucson, AZ Employee at Crest Foods wins over customers with his smile - Norman, OK Restaurant VZD to host Dr. Jill Biden's campaign stop for Joe Biden - OKC, OK Employees at Church's Chicken robbed at gunpoint - OKC, OK Norman Library uses brigade to transfer books - Norman, OK Drivers be aware of resurfacing on Lexington Bridge - Lexington, OK Oklahoma's Tulsa Race Massacre history to be presented at Downtown Library - OKC, OK First Field Office for Pete for America to open in OKC - Oklahoma City, OK Michael Bloomberg to hold campaign event in OKC - Oklahoma City, OK Elizabeth Warren supporter Ashley Judd holds a meet-and-greet at Classen Coffee Co. - OKC, OK School next to 5G Cell Tower raises concerns - Edmond, OK Scratch Kitchen asks customers to not open carry - Norman, OK Artist creates mural to honor Kobe Bryant - OKC, OK Get a Kolby Donut at Hurts Donut - OKC, OK Evergreen Cemetery holds annual memorial service for the homeless - Tucson, AZ

I don't judge COs for their reasons for planting a cache. Object if the cache is low quality, sure, but don't complain just because the CO's motives aren't pure enough for you. But, above all, talk to the CO. That will be much more fruitful in many ways than talking about it here.

Well put. The terrain rating can mean whether someone takes an unnecessary risk or avoids the unnecessary risk, so it's important that the terrain is rated as accurately as possible. Some people get bogged down in arguing what does half a star matter. Exactly what does half a star mean, or on some lower rated caches even sometimes a star. If in doubt, rate it higher. In lower rated caches it can be subjective. But when the terrain gets to risky levels, it needs to be as accurate as possible. Not long ago I faced one of those ledge problems you mentioned below a cliff. This one marked rather low at only 2T. Alone as I was, it would have been possible suicide to try to lie down and lean over and reach it that way, if I could even reach it, as there was a high chance of me slipping off head first. From below, after getting down a steep (but doable) incline though scratchy bushes it was way beyond my reach. Fortunately for me (not the logs) the cache was temporally in a plastic bag as someone had nicked the cache container, and I was able to hook it down with a long stick. If it had been in its original ammunition tin I'm not sure how I would have been able to get it down. Likely not. It took two visits to find this cache, but it was a 2001 cache, so that increased my determination, as it is increasing many other people's determination. My logs. I attempted this twice. Didn't find it I really wanted to find this one. My first approach came to a place which I knew I could get down, but wasn't sure I could get up again. I was about to give up then, but I wandered on a bit further (I really wanted this one) and found a way I could get up as well as down. Then I searched on several levels, but frustratingly couldn't find it. I was also late for dinner, so I had to leave. (And I did arrive late for dinner.) I hope to get another opportunity to search here. DNF . Found it I returned to have another attempt at finding this old cache, and found it this attempt . But wow, hard work. I would rate this 3.5T, maybe even 4T. Definitely NOT a mere 2T. There is also the scramble about trying to find the cache that adds to the difficulty. I brought a stool to stand on, but ended up only using it to peer into the wrong ledges and holes, with my hand above me holding a mirror to look in those spaces. Finally I spotted the cache from above, but being by myself I would not attempt to retrieve it from there. I returned back below down the slope through scratchy bushes and I heaved myself onto a wet ledge giving me a wet behind and managed to retrieve the cache with a stick. I threw it back. Some very tall people apparently can reach (but would need to be extremely tall), but I'm only about average height. Sadly, someone has stolen the cache and left the log books in no more than a ripped plastic bag. One log in particular is very wet. I removed soaked leaflets and junk and took them away to dispose of. I supplied the only plastic bag I had with me. It doesn't seal though..... .....So pleased to change that to . The log following mine I thought a great log. It also demonstrates that people do judge a cache and what to expect on the rating given. Found it The closer you get to completing a challenge, the more determined you become in not only seeking out qualifiers but also the efforts you go to find them. Only recently realising this oldie was close-ish and a reasonable D/T, made the 80km roundtrip detour on my way home from a family function over the weekend to tick off my third last Ausmer month (or 7th last Jasmer). The walk from car to GZ matched the D/T expectations but the last few metres was where the “fun/insanity” of doing this solo kicked in. Had overheard a friend talk about “coming from the top/bottom” but only realised once onsite I was going to struggle with either option. Even with thunder now growing louder in the valley, I was determined not to leave without a find and cautiously positioned myself to confirm a likely spot with a mirror. Apparently the missing container was replaced the following day but today luck was on my side as the log books were still currently in a double zip lock bag and the Macgyver in me, worked out a way of hooking a stick into a torn section and gently manoeuvring them to within reach. Signing duties completed, I carefully balanced prostrate in the mud and loose leaf litter once more (following torrential rain last week) and returned the bagged logbooks to their shelter (and without the TBs I’d intended to drop). Caught my breath, checked for leeches, assessed scratches then made my way back to the car to wipe myself down, even considering changing clothes, just as the rain started to teem down. Again, timing was everything!