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Kev - Thank you for your post. I found that one, and took the can of Pepsi. While I appreciated the Pepsi, even warm, I shudder to think of the damage IT would have caused. On the other, much more pressing subject. If there is in fact a vandal with a GPS among us, he or she has easy pickings all over SLC. I have maintained and ever will do so, that there is no SURE way to prevent this. The game depends on the integrity of its players. In time, it is probable that we all will have a cache plundered, and the only thiung we can really hope for is that we will find out about it quickly and either archive or replace the cache. I have had only one experience with this. In May, I went to the First Cache County cache, and it was in total disarray. I found the container, and one of the contents. No log, and nothing else. I had come all that way, and was determined to get a find, so I filled the cache with some of my trading items, put in a new log, and signed that I found it. A few people have found it since then, but it has been awhile, so I wonder how it is doing. Anyway, my point in this story is not to beat my chest or anything, but to illustrate that for this game to remain viable and enjoyable, we have to be "good citizens." Again, not to brag, but more than once I have filled caches with stuff I had to trade, just because the cache contents were either pitiful or non-existent. Usually these were older caches which had been depleted by unequal trading, which is what this thread is all about. I am not wealthy by any definition; most of you probably earn more than I do in a year. It makes a little bit of a dent in my wallet, too, to try and place nice items in a cache. Because of this, I appreciate it even more when I see the generosity shown by the contents of some of your caches. I was at a cache a little while ago that was obviously placed there by a young girl. The penmanship in the log book was a giveaway - not sloppy, but you know how kids write - just looks like they are trying really hard. The contents were about as good as any I had seen in most caches, and it showed a lot of effort and thought went into it. It reminds me a little of the widow's mite parable in the Bible, and it actually touched me. I happened to have a pretty good (I thought) cache in my car ready to go, so I took most of the best stuff, what would fit, as the cache was pretty small. and put it in there. I did take an item, though. If any of you have tears in your eyes by now, you know now why I love this game the way I do. It really does have tremendous potential to bring people together. Families, friends, and complete strangers. Hunt4Elk just told me how a number of people have asked to join us on our Zeus's Roost hike, and I could not be more excited. We are so completely removed from other people in our lives. We travel in steel cages at a mile a minute, and never have to see a soul we don't want to see. With all our technology for communication, we never talk to anyone unless we have to. Most people talk to less than 20 people per day for more than a minute. Back to the point: This sport DEPENDS on all of us giving more than we get. If everyone took more from caches than they received, which would also mean no one ever placed a cache, because that is, by its very nature, a donation, how long would this game last? This also reduces the concern over plundered caches greatly, because even if the entire cache is taken, the next person who tries to find it will at least inform the owner, who can take action. At best, the person who finds the plundered/missing cache will have one ready to go, and will just replace it. (This is a lot to ask, but it happens all the time). There are enough of us that one clown looting caches is not going to loot us out of this game. The only way that will happen is if no one places any more. In Utah, we have over 200 caches. It took me over two months of ambitious caching to find half that many. Enough said? It is entirely reasonale to think there will be over 300 here by year end, assuming things REALLY slow down this fall/winter. It is truly a bummer when a cache is raided, but that's all it is. All you can do is dust for fingerprints, call the FBI for a match, "ask Jeeves" for the dirty @#$%'s address and place a flaming "cache" of dog ______ on the perpetrator's porch. Or you could forget about it and get on with your life. Not my place to tell you how to deal with anger. I'm an accountant, not a therapist. (that's my wife, lucky for me) Well, this has been long, but it's been fun...for me at least. With those thoughts, let's all have BIG group hug and sing "Kum-ba-yah." Amen. ------------------ David Wallentine dwallent34@yahoo.com

Kev - Thank you for your post. I found that one, and took the can of Pepsi. While I appreciated the Pepsi, even warm, I shudder to think of the damage IT would have caused. On the other, much more pressing subject. If there is in fact a vandal with a GPS among us, he or she has easy pickings all over SLC. I have maintained and ever will do so, that there is no SURE way to prevent this. The game depends on the integrity of its players. In time, it is probable that we all will have a cache plundered, and the only thiung we can really hope for is that we will find out about it quickly and either archive or replace the cache. I have had only one experience with this. In May, I went to the First Cache County cache, and it was in total disarray. I found the container, and one of the contents. No log, and nothing else. I had come all that way, and was determined to get a find, so I filled the cache with some of my trading items, put in a new log, and signed that I found it. A few people have found it since then, but it has been awhile, so I wonder how it is doing. Anyway, my point in this story is not to beat my chest or anything, but to illustrate that for this game to remain viable and enjoyable, we have to be "good citizens." Again, not to brag, but more than once I have filled caches with stuff I had to trade, just because the cache contents were either pitiful or non-existent. Usually these were older caches which had been depleted by unequal trading, which is what this thread is all about. I am not wealthy by any definition; most of you probably earn more than I do in a year. It makes a little bit of a dent in my wallet, too, to try and place nice items in a cache. Because of this, I appreciate it even more when I see the generosity shown by the contents of some of your caches. I was at a cache a little while ago that was obviously placed there by a young girl. The penmanship in the log book was a giveaway - not sloppy, but you know how kids write - just looks like they are trying really hard. The contents were about as good as any I had seen in most caches, and it showed a lot of effort and thought went into it. It reminds me a little of the widow's mite parable in the Bible, and it actually touched me. I happened to have a pretty good (I thought) cache in my car ready to go, so I took most of the best stuff, what would fit, as the cache was pretty small. and put it in there. I did take an item, though. If any of you have tears in your eyes by now, you know now why I love this game the way I do. It really does have tremendous potential to bring people together. Families, friends, and complete strangers. Hunt4Elk just told me how a number of people have asked to join us on our Zeus's Roost hike, and I could not be more excited. We are so completely removed from other people in our lives. We travel in steel cages at a mile a minute, and never have to see a soul we don't want to see. With all our technology for communication, we never talk to anyone unless we have to. Most people talk to less than 20 people per day for more than a minute. Back to the point: This sport DEPENDS on all of us giving more than we get. If everyone took more from caches than they received, which would also mean no one ever placed a cache, because that is, by its very nature, a donation, how long would this game last? This also reduces the concern over plundered caches greatly, because even if the entire cache is taken, the next person who tries to find it will at least inform the owner, who can take action. At best, the person who finds the plundered/missing cache will have one ready to go, and will just replace it. (This is a lot to ask, but it happens all the time). There are enough of us that one clown looting caches is not going to loot us out of this game. The only way that will happen is if no one places any more. In Utah, we have over 200 caches. It took me over two months of ambitious caching to find half that many. Enough said? It is entirely reasonale to think there will be over 300 here by year end, assuming things REALLY slow down this fall/winter. It is truly a bummer when a cache is raided, but that's all it is. All you can do is dust for fingerprints, call the FBI for a match, "ask Jeeves" for the dirty @#$%'s address and place a flaming "cache" of dog ______ on the perpetrator's porch. Or you could forget about it and get on with your life. Not my place to tell you how to deal with anger. I'm an accountant, not a therapist. (that's my wife, lucky for me) Well, this has been long, but it's been fun...for me at least. With those thoughts, let's all have BIG group hug and sing "Kum-ba-yah." Amen. ------------------ David Wallentine dwallent34@yahoo.com

I like the (H)idden and (F)ound idea, but think the ©ountries and (S)tates to be overkill. (X) Other Geocachers encountered is interesting. (At first I read Countries as Counties! Talk about silly!) Anyway, each category is optional, so each to his own! Kimbo 5H/13F

Ken - think you could move Stinky a little farther south? I'm headed up to Rockford today, and tried to talk my wife into the added miles... Sometime I'll tell you about my non-Geocaching hitch-hiker, Stinky the Skunk.

Ken - think you could move Stinky a little farther south? I'm headed up to Rockford today, and tried to talk my wife into the added miles... Sometime I'll tell you about my non-Geocaching hitch-hiker, Stinky the Skunk.

Clayjar: I agree for the most part with what you wrote. As I noted before I do think that a license is a Good Thing. I hope you and others believe that. I do not think that the restictive aspects of the license are required at all to disindemnify GROUNDED from any liability. As has been proved in court time and again, the extent of liability for the body operating a server that serves data for a public forum is the requirement to remove any data a party with legal rights to ask requests. Wow, did that make sense? Basically they are NOT liable for data copied off the site. And it's even debatable whether they are liable for data they continue to publish. It's just easier to remove the requested data and be done with that aspect. In fact. from a legal liability standpoint claiming copyright on the published data increases the legal liability. Entity foo can republish the data, and let GROUNDED be a front to any legal action. The only thing foo would liable for is a copyright violation. So from your example: Bob's Big Fat Open Spaces, Inc. can't sue foo, but CAN sue GROUNDED even after GROUNDED removes the data from geocaching.com. A nice legal position for foo to be in. ;-( Now I would like to see a license that allows Evil S. Aden and anyone else that wishes to grab and republish the data but makes it clear that any legal action taken against them cannot be redirected to GROUNDED. So, while I believe that Jeremy and GROUNDED have the right intentions (except for not allowing republication) I do not believe that the license has helped the indemnification, but rather hurt it. As Jeremy and I do not agree on the republishing issue and he does not seem to be willing to discuss it, I guess I will look for others that do share that belief and assist there. I am interested in discussing any issues related to this, but I am not interested in participating in a flame war. If you disagree with me, fine. You have that right. If you would be interested in working towards a better solution for those involved, then talk on! ;-) [This message has been edited by TimRiker (edited 02 July 2001).]

quote:Originally posted by bunkerdave:Is that where you and me find a cache at the same time and sit there and talk about caching for an hour? Mmm, now that's actually a good idea! With my Palm and Nokia I can run all my typical internet applications including IRC. 9600 bps mind you. But it works fine. So how about a Geocaching.com IRC server for "when you find it" chats! ------------------ Peter Scholtz www.biometrics.co.za

quote:Originally posted by bunkerdave:Is that where you and me find a cache at the same time and sit there and talk about caching for an hour? Mmm, now that's actually a good idea! With my Palm and Nokia I can run all my typical internet applications including IRC. 9600 bps mind you. But it works fine. So how about a Geocaching.com IRC server for "when you find it" chats! ------------------ Peter Scholtz www.biometrics.co.za

Is that where you and me find a cache at the same time and sit there and talk about caching for an hour?

Is that where you and me find a cache at the same time and sit there and talk about caching for an hour?

Darn good idea!!! I don't have much room to talk (being that I have just started today), but I've even talked a few friends into a geocaching day trip. I hope to find a card in my first find!! Anyone can say they got a trinket from a cache, but cards have bragging rights. If you're a serious outdoorsy-type...they'll catch on big!!! ------------------ Squeak

Thanks for the response, it does make me feel better knowing there hasn't been much of a problem getting permission. Still, I'd like to have a few more details. How did you find out who to contact? Did you mail a letter, or talk to them on the phone. Did you have to tell them exactly where the site was and what you were exactly going to place, or were you more general? Thanks for the help.

Rin, Red tape and talk aside ...lots of people place caches. I've placed 8. No one has ever had a problem with one of mine. The only group of folk who do have a persistant problem with it are the national forest people, and that is just with a smattering of caches. Bottom line... if you know of a nice place that has special meaning for you or is a "good place for a cache" ...put one there! It'd be one thing if we were advocating you dump a bag of trash or spray paint a swastika somewhere. Instead all we're really talking about is a self-contained tupperware or ammo box, some trinkets and 1 to 30 geocachers visiting the spot over the next 3 months. So no worries, ok?

quote:Originally posted by ClayJar:So, has anyone else used tactics like these to get geocaching mentioned on the radio? I've managed to get our local talk radio to do an interview but I don't think it made any difference unfortunately. So I started distributing pamphlets to outdoor shops last week. Distributed about 1200 so far, but there is place for another 2000 which I'll do this weekend. I think this will probably have the best response ... That radio interview is on the press page (http://www.geocaching.com/press.asp): "Interview between Cape Talk presenter Kieno Kammies and Prof Charles Merry of University of Cape Town on Cape Talk radio (567 AM) in South Africa, May 3 2001 at 1330 GMT+2. www.capetalk.co.za. Duration is 7 minutes 32 seconds. Listen now (mp3)." ------------------ Peter Scholtz www.biometrics.co.za

quote:Originally posted by ClayJar:So, has anyone else used tactics like these to get geocaching mentioned on the radio? I've managed to get our local talk radio to do an interview but I don't think it made any difference unfortunately. So I started distributing pamphlets to outdoor shops last week. Distributed about 1200 so far, but there is place for another 2000 which I'll do this weekend. I think this will probably have the best response ... That radio interview is on the press page (http://www.geocaching.com/press.asp): "Interview between Cape Talk presenter Kieno Kammies and Prof Charles Merry of University of Cape Town on Cape Talk radio (567 AM) in South Africa, May 3 2001 at 1330 GMT+2. www.capetalk.co.za. Duration is 7 minutes 32 seconds. Listen now (mp3)." ------------------ Peter Scholtz www.biometrics.co.za

BTW: I drive from Provo to Ogden every day. I'd love to know which of those Billboards you find offensive "I get gas at Guad's" Just kidding, I think that one is hilarious. The one that bugs me is the ad. for Khaki pants that says, save $999,950. Like I would spend $50 on Khaki pants. I think that placing political or religious materials into a cache is definately in bad taste and I wouldn't do it myself. Ultimately, it comes down to a question of law as to whether a line should be drawn in the sand. Jeremy has said he doesn't want sexually explicit caches or caches with tobacco or alcohol in them. This is because the law places an age limit on the purchase and possession of these things. Although he probably would agree that religious or political materials in caches is in poor taste I doubt we'll ever see an edict coming from him concerning the matter because it is a matter of propriety and not law. Also I may live in Utah, but I was raised in California. This is the danger in generalizing a whole state's populace, they don't always fit in. I definately consider myself in touch with the "real world" Maybe we can all talk about it at the get-together next month, I would enjoy that. -Cobalt [This message has been edited by Cobalt (edited 25 June 2001).]

BTW: I drive from Provo to Ogden every day. I'd love to know which of those Billboards you find offensive "I get gas at Guad's" Just kidding, I think that one is hilarious. The one that bugs me is the ad. for Khaki pants that says, save $999,950. Like I would spend $50 on Khaki pants. I think that placing political or religious materials into a cache is definately in bad taste and I wouldn't do it myself. Ultimately, it comes down to a question of law as to whether a line should be drawn in the sand. Jeremy has said he doesn't want sexually explicit caches or caches with tobacco or alcohol in them. This is because the law places an age limit on the purchase and possession of these things. Although he probably would agree that religious or political materials in caches is in poor taste I doubt we'll ever see an edict coming from him concerning the matter because it is a matter of propriety and not law. Also I may live in Utah, but I was raised in California. This is the danger in generalizing a whole state's populace, they don't always fit in. I definately consider myself in touch with the "real world" Maybe we can all talk about it at the get-together next month, I would enjoy that. -Cobalt [This message has been edited by Cobalt (edited 25 June 2001).]

Call me an old poop, but I find that most of the time when people talk about things as being 'adult' or 'mature' they are really refering to things that I find childish and immature. Being a mature adult is knowing how to put a cap on your baser instincts, not parading them around in public. Thank you Jeremy for taking what I think of as being a mature stand on this issue. Cephas 'Old Poop' Hawke Bedford, NH Live Free or Die

Call me an old poop, but I find that most of the time when people talk about things as being 'adult' or 'mature' they are really refering to things that I find childish and immature. Being a mature adult is knowing how to put a cap on your baser instincts, not parading them around in public. Thank you Jeremy for taking what I think of as being a mature stand on this issue. Cephas 'Old Poop' Hawke Bedford, NH Live Free or Die

Hey Paulwhy, Tracy and myself already have a letter that we used with the state parks local to us. We placed one in a park, after having a 15 minutes talk with the ranger. We spent most of that time talking about how small gps units have gotten since he was given one for work. He then gave us a tour of the park. Richard

I live southwest of you in Fayetteville, PA. If you want to talk "off-forum" e-mail me at gnbrotz@innernet.net ------------------ Greg N39°54.705' W077°33.137' [This message has been edited by gnbrotz (edited 13 June 2001).]

If you look at my new cache post (Ancient Octopus' Garden) you will see that I prefer a trivia based clue selection to help guide the hunter towards the cache. It was a blast making up the clues. I personally wouldn't mind the physical ones, but I can tell you that my kids have helped hide ours, and search for the ones we've looked for. Therefore as a family event, the physically demanding ones are out of the question. And then there are the two at Shawnee Mission park... Do you have any idea of the health hazards of tick bites? I think there are plenty of places caches could be hidden in this vast park that would not pose this danger to myself and kids. Unfortunately these two caches that are nearly in my back yard will never be sought after or found by my family. I was thinking about a kid-Kache that would use directional clues based on cartoons, Nickelodian, etc., and fill the container with kid related stuff. However I'm not sure how I'd request that adults not look for it. Any ideas? And one more thing as a newbie... What the #$%^ is up with the city of Mission? Oh my - we can't have NEW people come to our parks and discover the beauty of Mission! Talk about isolationists! Who is the Mayor there, Pat Buchanan? - Wesley

If you look at my new cache post (Ancient Octopus' Garden) you will see that I prefer a trivia based clue selection to help guide the hunter towards the cache. It was a blast making up the clues. I personally wouldn't mind the physical ones, but I can tell you that my kids have helped hide ours, and search for the ones we've looked for. Therefore as a family event, the physically demanding ones are out of the question. And then there are the two at Shawnee Mission park... Do you have any idea of the health hazards of tick bites? I think there are plenty of places caches could be hidden in this vast park that would not pose this danger to myself and kids. Unfortunately these two caches that are nearly in my back yard will never be sought after or found by my family. I was thinking about a kid-Kache that would use directional clues based on cartoons, Nickelodian, etc., and fill the container with kid related stuff. However I'm not sure how I'd request that adults not look for it. Any ideas? And one more thing as a newbie... What the #$%^ is up with the city of Mission? Oh my - we can't have NEW people come to our parks and discover the beauty of Mission! Talk about isolationists! Who is the Mayor there, Pat Buchanan? - Wesley

You may be hooked on geocaching if... the only thing that annoys you more than civilians picnicking within eyesight of a cache location, is spotting another geocacher...closer to it than you. all your hometown maps are covered with notes about possible cache locations. no one bothers asking if you brought your GPS. your geocaching forum header shows the posts number in four-digits. you sign your posts with an H/F ratio. all your GPS receivers smell like DEET. you mix your own DEET, and sell it to all the "extreme" cachers in town. you build your own GPS receivers to custom specs. and they're selling well, on display at the friendly, neighborhood military surplus store, right next to the ammo boxes. you tried to quit geocaching cold turkey, and failed...again. you joined a 12-step group for geocachers, and everyone there knew your name. every morning you spend a few minutes choosing a GPS receiver, from one of the shelves in the GPS collection display case in the foyer, to take along for the day. If you're going geocaching, the ritual takes a bit longer. your wife said, "It's me or the GPS!", and you ran out to pick up new batteries. you have to carry a pen whenever you go to the local outdoor store, so you can sign autographs when customers wave at you with printouts of your clever geocache clues. you get a 20% discount at the local outdoor store, even during sales, where you're treated like a minor Roman god by the staff for all the new geocaches you've hidden this month. you heard Garmin licensed the Palm operating system, and now have 3-D topographic dreams about the possibilites. when someone says "What's the point of owning a GPS? Don't you already know where you are?", you reply by dissing their mama. when someone asks if they should buy a GPS, you reply by asking them if they think they should buy food. you no longer talk to your friends about geocaching -- none of them will allow it. when someone asks you which GPS they should buy, you offer to drive them to the store and use the drivetime to recruit them into the sport. when someone casually asks which is the best GPS on the market, you reply by inviting them to stay for dinner and spend the night. when you're at a party, and a really good-looking woman asks you to explain the finer points of geocaching, you know you're dreaming again. you can change the batteries in your GPS with your eyes closed. you can enter a new geocache waypoint into your GPS with your eyes closed. when you close your eyes, you can see the waypoints of all the geocaches you've hidden...and read off the decimals. your favorite geocaching t-shirt says: "You can hide 'em, but not for long!" your new geocaching t-shirt says: "Find this, suckah!" you practice geocaching in the backyard. you do an early morning geocaching workout. you only geocache alone. you only geocache alone, in camo fatigues. you only geocache alone, at night, in black pajamas, with a KA-BAR strapped to your leg, and burnt cork on your face. when someone at a party glibly comments, "Isn't geocaching pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel?", you reply with one quick shot to the head, and stuff THEM in a barrel. Anton, 8H/9F [This message has been edited by Anton (edited 11 June 2001).]

You may be hooked on geocaching if... the only thing that annoys you more than civilians picnicking within eyesight of a cache location, is spotting another geocacher...closer to it than you. all your hometown maps are covered with notes about possible cache locations. no one bothers asking if you brought your GPS. your geocaching forum header shows the posts number in four-digits. you sign your posts with an H/F ratio. all your GPS receivers smell like DEET. you mix your own DEET, and sell it to all the "extreme" cachers in town. you build your own GPS receivers to custom specs. and they're selling well, on display at the friendly, neighborhood military surplus store, right next to the ammo boxes. you tried to quit geocaching cold turkey, and failed...again. you joined a 12-step group for geocachers, and everyone there knew your name. every morning you spend a few minutes choosing a GPS receiver, from one of the shelves in the GPS collection display case in the foyer, to take along for the day. If you're going geocaching, the ritual takes a bit longer. your wife said, "It's me or the GPS!", and you ran out to pick up new batteries. you have to carry a pen whenever you go to the local outdoor store, so you can sign autographs when customers wave at you with printouts of your clever geocache clues. you get a 20% discount at the local outdoor store, even during sales, where you're treated like a minor Roman god by the staff for all the new geocaches you've hidden this month. you heard Garmin licensed the Palm operating system, and now have 3-D topographic dreams about the possibilites. when someone says "What's the point of owning a GPS? Don't you already know where you are?", you reply by dissing their mama. when someone asks if they should buy a GPS, you reply by asking them if they think they should buy food. you no longer talk to your friends about geocaching -- none of them will allow it. when someone asks you which GPS they should buy, you offer to drive them to the store and use the drivetime to recruit them into the sport. when someone casually asks which is the best GPS on the market, you reply by inviting them to stay for dinner and spend the night. when you're at a party, and a really good-looking woman asks you to explain the finer points of geocaching, you know you're dreaming again. you can change the batteries in your GPS with your eyes closed. you can enter a new geocache waypoint into your GPS with your eyes closed. when you close your eyes, you can see the waypoints of all the geocaches you've hidden...and read off the decimals. your favorite geocaching t-shirt says: "You can hide 'em, but not for long!" your new geocaching t-shirt says: "Find this, suckah!" you practice geocaching in the backyard. you do an early morning geocaching workout. you only geocache alone. you only geocache alone, in camo fatigues. you only geocache alone, at night, in black pajamas, with a KA-BAR strapped to your leg, and burnt cork on your face. when someone at a party glibly comments, "Isn't geocaching pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel?", you reply with one quick shot to the head, and stuff THEM in a barrel. Anton, 8H/9F [This message has been edited by Anton (edited 11 June 2001).]