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If you look at my new cache post (Ancient Octopus' Garden) you will see that I prefer a trivia based clue selection to help guide the hunter towards the cache. It was a blast making up the clues. I personally wouldn't mind the physical ones, but I can tell you that my kids have helped hide ours, and search for the ones we've looked for. Therefore as a family event, the physically demanding ones are out of the question. And then there are the two at Shawnee Mission park... Do you have any idea of the health hazards of tick bites? I think there are plenty of places caches could be hidden in this vast park that would not pose this danger to myself and kids. Unfortunately these two caches that are nearly in my back yard will never be sought after or found by my family. I was thinking about a kid-Kache that would use directional clues based on cartoons, Nickelodian, etc., and fill the container with kid related stuff. However I'm not sure how I'd request that adults not look for it. Any ideas? And one more thing as a newbie... What the #$%^ is up with the city of Mission? Oh my - we can't have NEW people come to our parks and discover the beauty of Mission! Talk about isolationists! Who is the Mayor there, Pat Buchanan? - Wesley

You may be hooked on geocaching if... the only thing that annoys you more than civilians picnicking within eyesight of a cache location, is spotting another geocacher...closer to it than you. all your hometown maps are covered with notes about possible cache locations. no one bothers asking if you brought your GPS. your geocaching forum header shows the posts number in four-digits. you sign your posts with an H/F ratio. all your GPS receivers smell like DEET. you mix your own DEET, and sell it to all the "extreme" cachers in town. you build your own GPS receivers to custom specs. and they're selling well, on display at the friendly, neighborhood military surplus store, right next to the ammo boxes. you tried to quit geocaching cold turkey, and failed...again. you joined a 12-step group for geocachers, and everyone there knew your name. every morning you spend a few minutes choosing a GPS receiver, from one of the shelves in the GPS collection display case in the foyer, to take along for the day. If you're going geocaching, the ritual takes a bit longer. your wife said, "It's me or the GPS!", and you ran out to pick up new batteries. you have to carry a pen whenever you go to the local outdoor store, so you can sign autographs when customers wave at you with printouts of your clever geocache clues. you get a 20% discount at the local outdoor store, even during sales, where you're treated like a minor Roman god by the staff for all the new geocaches you've hidden this month. you heard Garmin licensed the Palm operating system, and now have 3-D topographic dreams about the possibilites. when someone says "What's the point of owning a GPS? Don't you already know where you are?", you reply by dissing their mama. when someone asks if they should buy a GPS, you reply by asking them if they think they should buy food. you no longer talk to your friends about geocaching -- none of them will allow it. when someone asks you which GPS they should buy, you offer to drive them to the store and use the drivetime to recruit them into the sport. when someone casually asks which is the best GPS on the market, you reply by inviting them to stay for dinner and spend the night. when you're at a party, and a really good-looking woman asks you to explain the finer points of geocaching, you know you're dreaming again. you can change the batteries in your GPS with your eyes closed. you can enter a new geocache waypoint into your GPS with your eyes closed. when you close your eyes, you can see the waypoints of all the geocaches you've hidden...and read off the decimals. your favorite geocaching t-shirt says: "You can hide 'em, but not for long!" your new geocaching t-shirt says: "Find this, suckah!" you practice geocaching in the backyard. you do an early morning geocaching workout. you only geocache alone. you only geocache alone, in camo fatigues. you only geocache alone, at night, in black pajamas, with a KA-BAR strapped to your leg, and burnt cork on your face. when someone at a party glibly comments, "Isn't geocaching pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel?", you reply with one quick shot to the head, and stuff THEM in a barrel. Anton, 8H/9F [This message has been edited by Anton (edited 11 June 2001).]

You may be hooked on geocaching if... the only thing that annoys you more than civilians picnicking within eyesight of a cache location, is spotting another geocacher...closer to it than you. all your hometown maps are covered with notes about possible cache locations. no one bothers asking if you brought your GPS. your geocaching forum header shows the posts number in four-digits. you sign your posts with an H/F ratio. all your GPS receivers smell like DEET. you mix your own DEET, and sell it to all the "extreme" cachers in town. you build your own GPS receivers to custom specs. and they're selling well, on display at the friendly, neighborhood military surplus store, right next to the ammo boxes. you tried to quit geocaching cold turkey, and failed...again. you joined a 12-step group for geocachers, and everyone there knew your name. every morning you spend a few minutes choosing a GPS receiver, from one of the shelves in the GPS collection display case in the foyer, to take along for the day. If you're going geocaching, the ritual takes a bit longer. your wife said, "It's me or the GPS!", and you ran out to pick up new batteries. you have to carry a pen whenever you go to the local outdoor store, so you can sign autographs when customers wave at you with printouts of your clever geocache clues. you get a 20% discount at the local outdoor store, even during sales, where you're treated like a minor Roman god by the staff for all the new geocaches you've hidden this month. you heard Garmin licensed the Palm operating system, and now have 3-D topographic dreams about the possibilites. when someone says "What's the point of owning a GPS? Don't you already know where you are?", you reply by dissing their mama. when someone asks if they should buy a GPS, you reply by asking them if they think they should buy food. you no longer talk to your friends about geocaching -- none of them will allow it. when someone asks you which GPS they should buy, you offer to drive them to the store and use the drivetime to recruit them into the sport. when someone casually asks which is the best GPS on the market, you reply by inviting them to stay for dinner and spend the night. when you're at a party, and a really good-looking woman asks you to explain the finer points of geocaching, you know you're dreaming again. you can change the batteries in your GPS with your eyes closed. you can enter a new geocache waypoint into your GPS with your eyes closed. when you close your eyes, you can see the waypoints of all the geocaches you've hidden...and read off the decimals. your favorite geocaching t-shirt says: "You can hide 'em, but not for long!" your new geocaching t-shirt says: "Find this, suckah!" you practice geocaching in the backyard. you do an early morning geocaching workout. you only geocache alone. you only geocache alone, in camo fatigues. you only geocache alone, at night, in black pajamas, with a KA-BAR strapped to your leg, and burnt cork on your face. when someone at a party glibly comments, "Isn't geocaching pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel?", you reply with one quick shot to the head, and stuff THEM in a barrel. Anton, 8H/9F [This message has been edited by Anton (edited 11 June 2001).]

It is sort of frustrating. I think some of the individual park rangers are open to the idea of Geocaching but they are handcuffed by the rules of their park system. It seems very difficult to talk to someone that could actually help us change these rules. I think the chain of command here is very tall and we are going to have a lot of climbing to get high enough up to get some changes made. If anyone has any idea I would love to hear them. I was think maybe we could get a group of Geocachers from that area together if we could find someone in the Park Service that would listen to us and help us start an appeal for some changes. Maybe they would be willing to let up put caches in ranger approve areas. I wouldn't mind some common sense regulation but right now they are just blindly enforcing the rules and these rules do not allow geocaching. mcb

Just an update for those who weren't able to attend. We had a great turnout with twenty-five plus folks showing up at one time or another. In fact, it was such a great turn out that we planned another meeting. We're on for July 14 from 3 to 5 pm. We don't know where yet but LoCache is looking for a spot. There was a great deal of talk about the State Park situation and Black Knight reported that all is not lost. He and some others are meeting with local park officials in the near future and they will report back to everyone at the next meeting. Keep an eye out for more info about the next gathering here in this Groundspeak forum as well as the new event cache at geocaching.com Jess Bowers t_j_bowers@hotmail.com [This message has been edited by tjbowers (edited 10 June 2001).]

I need more ideas on promoting Geocaching in countries where it hasn't taken off yet. I've tried a few things but it hasn't really helped yet, e.g.: 1. Radio interview on local talk radio (http://www.geocaching.com/media/CapeTalk.mp3) 2. Word by mouth (telling friends and taking them along - this works, but o so slowly) 3. "Pirate" posters on street lamp posts near traffic intersections (ok, I only put up three in the Cape Town CBD as an experiment - and the weather has destroyed two of them). I'm considering applying to the local municipality for permission to put up about a hundred ... will cost though. 4. Pamphlets at outdoor shops where they sell GPS's. (Must still do this, might be the most effective). Ideas please ... (So far I'm doing a lot more hiding than seeking, and I must admit I prefer the seek.) ------------------ Peter Scholtz www.biometrics.co.za

quote:Originally posted by jeremy: Of course that is considered confrontational to the Park service, and they will take a harder look at stifling the game in more and more locations. I guarantee that....I like the idea worse and worse as we talk about it. That, of course, doesn't mean I won't leave the checkbox, but I certainly won't check it for my caches. Jeremy A few points to make: 1. That's fine if you choose not to check the box, but allowing people the freedom to have their coordinates posted elsewhere is good for the sport. People can have access to the game through different websites. 2. Your worry about liability is unnecessary. If you removed a bad cache from your site, then what liabilty would you face? I think the Park Service, private property owners, etc., would only go after sites that were negligent in updating their cache databases. 3. This is one more reason the sport needs a central, sanctioning body. Let's say there were 15 sites that store and maintain cache data. The council could make an "information sharing" rule that states if a cache is updated on one site, the information must be passed along to other sites. This must happen because a cache owner will have one favorite site that he/she uses. He/She will not visit every site in existence because he/she will not be aware of every one or, he/she may be too lazy to update his/her cache at each and every site. Again, this information sharing rule would ensure that a change at one site would mean a uniform change at every site. I am not a big fan of government, but a central authority can be a good thing if it is used properly. Since you copyrighted "geocaching" this can be done. I can assure you that every site will want to use the name geocaching somewhere on the page. You can make it a condition of use that if they want to use the name geocaching, they must register themselves with the council and promise to abide by the council's bylaws. If a site is negligent in updating its base, the council can decertify it as a standing member and demand the cessation of the use of the name geocaching. From that point on the site will be a stand-alone rogue and not privy to any update information. It will quickly fade away when hunters go looking for caches that have been missing for months. The free marketplace will drive these sites out. And if you're still not warm to the idea of a council, then you alone can be this governing body. You can still put into effect the suggestions I made here. And you alone can police these sites to ensure they are updating. If they aren't, pull the "geocaching" privelage. 4. This sport is growing rapidly. The media, especially, are going to be looking for a sanctioning, governing body to approach. An institution of some kind needs to be formed. A handful of people might form the "GPS Stash Hunt Society" or "GPS Treasure Hunt Association" and make up the bylaws/rules of the sport and issue press releases. To the media, this will be a blessing. They will have their point of contact/sanctioning body they were looking for. This body will be first on the scene, granted an unofficial grandfather status, and will be recognized as the sanctioning body of the sport. Sadly, like Mr. Ulmer, you may find yourself pining away on the sideline. Rob [This message has been edited by cache_only (edited 09 June 2001).]

I think the stickers are a great idea! Packs of 100 may be a bit overkill for some of us tho. Isn't that trademark/patent talk a little off topic for this thread?

quote:Originally posted by 300mag:...everyone should stop this crying...so get out there and start geocaching not geocrying. Ouch! That hurt, 300Mag. I have a sweet Remington bolt rifle chambered in 300 mag. From one gun guy to another, you hurt me to the bone, dog. I'd love to talk handguns with you, but since you live in Canada I guess that would be a one-sided conversation. All in good fun. Take care, Rob [This message has been edited by cache_only (edited 08 June 2001).]

quote:Originally posted by 300mag:...everyone should stop this crying...so get out there and start geocaching not geocrying. Ouch! That hurt, 300Mag. I have a sweet Remington bolt rifle chambered in 300 mag. From one gun guy to another, you hurt me to the bone, dog. I'd love to talk handguns with you, but since you live in Canada I guess that would be a one-sided conversation. All in good fun. Take care, Rob [This message has been edited by cache_only (edited 08 June 2001).]

quote:Originally posted by 300mag:...everyone should stop this crying...so get out there and start geocaching not geocrying. Ouch! That hurt, 300Mag. I have a sweet Remington bolt rifle chambered in 300 mag. From one gun guy to another, you hurt me to the bone, dog. I'd love to talk handguns with you, but since you live in Canada I guess that would be a one-sided conversation. All in good fun. Take care, Rob [This message has been edited by cache_only (edited 08 June 2001).]

quote:Originally posted by 300mag:...everyone should stop this crying...so get out there and start geocaching not geocrying. Ouch! That hurt, 300Mag. I have a sweet Remington bolt rifle chambered in 300 mag. From one gun guy to another, you hurt me to the bone, dog. I'd love to talk handguns with you, but since you live in Canada I guess that would be a one-sided conversation. All in good fun. Take care, Rob [This message has been edited by cache_only (edited 08 June 2001).]

I recommend a net search, then go to a brick & mortar store. Go on a slow business evening and see if there is a person that will sit down and talk and take you out to the parking lot for a quick test run. I did that a couple years ago when I sold for a 'discount marine store'. I sold a ton of them, just by showing how to use a unit, and would help a customer if he had a problem as well. my $0.02

Could all of you SE Queensland Cache's chuck your emails and ICQ numbers here it weould be good to get to talk to some of you one on one and get some information. ICQ - 45447650 MSN Email - gordon_mcgregor@hotmail.com Cheers ------------------ The Random Acts of Idiocy

this is really silly. a few comments: i apologize about their nature, but the way you chose to post this deserves a reply as such in my opinion. you or one specific other person has continously posting on the forums and lists regarding the "urgent" need for an "official geocaching organization", there has been little or no response and at this point I don't know why you are persisting other than as a desperate attempt to in some way force your ideas.. i think a coucil would inevitably result in more bickering and whining by the people who are doing it in the first place-afteral they are going to be the only ones who would want to be on such a council in order to, well, run things their way. those being the same people who are unhapppy that _their_ way isn't immediately implemented on someone else's url. indeed there seem to be a _handful_ of people dissastisfied by the url/the way its run and who will only be happy if it somehow included their ideas/their way of running things/their view of geocaching etc..i dont know why people seem to think there is this one-man conspiracy going on, most realize jeremy has good intentions. there are hundreds of people seeking/hiding every day that do not visit the lists and forums, where i would guess, the more outspoken dissatisfied few tend to like to hear themselves talk, but as such your assertion that "The sport is going to self-destruct if things carry on" appears to be a huge over-reaction and a desperate attempt to persuade people to agree with your agenda. re: Dave Ulmer, i dont understand your problem, or know what you want..apparently he hid the first cache, came up with the idea, and promptly disappeared until now (his reappearance has been marked by a great deal of immaturity in my opinion). What else can be said except one line? What has he done? Your assertion that "there such an overt attempt to keep him in such a diminutive capacity" is an inflammatory statement largely without merit. What capactity do you suggest? He made it known he was no longer interested in geocaching way at the beginning. Anyway, I don't care about Dave Ulmer and would rather let him speak for himself. It really seems like any time a certain group of people on here don't get their ideas _immediately_ adressed or institued by Jeremy, within a day or two, there emerges this huge big deal. I don't understand this sense of entitlement I am seeing...people just keep posting contentious assertions in order to somehow make it seem like there are all these "big problems" that the "majority" of geocachers are concerned with when in reality its _their_ problem that they are concerned with. All of this seems like a very selfish attempt just to keep the dissent alive somehow.

ng every day that do not visit the lists and forums, where i would guess, the more outspoken dissatisfied few tend to like to hear themselves talk, but as such your assertion that "The sport is going to self-destruct if things carry on" appears to be a huge over-reaction and a desperate attempt to persuade people to agree with your agenda. re: Dave Ulmer, i dont understand your problem, or know what you want..apparently he hid the first cache, came up with the idea, and promptly disappeared until now (his reappearance has been marked by a great deal of immaturity in my opinion). What else can be said except one line? What has he done? Your assertion that "there such an overt attempt to keep him in such a diminutive capacity" is an inflammatory statement largely without merit. What capactity do you suggest? He made it known he was no longer interested in geocaching way at the beginning. Anyway, I don't care about Dave Ulmer and would rather let him speak for himself. It really seems like any time a certain group of people on here don't get their ideas _immediately_ adressed or institued by Jeremy, within a day or two, there emerges this huge big deal. I don't understand this sense of entitlement I am seeing...people just keep posting contentious assertions in order to somehow make it seem like there are all these "big problems" that the "majority" of geocachers are concerned with when in reality its _their_ problem that they are concerned with. All of this seems like a very selfish attempt just to keep the dissent alive somehow.

Thought everyone would like to know that geocaching was in Yahoo! Internet Life magazine in the "talk of the net column" (Jul. 2001, p. 74.) I couldn't find a link to the story online. It was an interesting read as the article describes geocaching and follows Cache_nInjA around the city. Pretty good coverage and a mention of geocaching.com. Can Cache_nInjA sue them for defamation of character for the "thrift shop getup" comment?

Thought everyone would like to know that geocaching was in Yahoo! Internet Life magazine in the "talk of the net column" (Jul. 2001, p. 74.) I couldn't find a link to the story online. It was an interesting read as the article describes geocaching and follows Cache_nInjA around the city. Pretty good coverage and a mention of geocaching.com. Can Cache_nInjA sue them for defamation of character for the "thrift shop getup" comment?

I got my GPSMAP 76 on Friday!!! So far I really love it. The 8 megs of memory are a definte improvement over the III+. The reception on the unit seems to be very good. In addition the Map 76 acquires birds pretty quickly. I was surprised. I haven't played with WAAS too much yet, but it seems to be able to pull in a differential lock just fine. I have noticed that I'm having trouble getting the MAP 76 to talk to 3rd party software though. I don't have any trouble using it with Garmin's Topo, but it doesn't seem to communicate correctly with the Topografix program EasyGPS or with Delorme's Street Atlas 7.0. I had coordinate the transfer of data to and from those software packages with an eMap. I was using a III+ before and it is comparable, but there are some definite differences. For the most part things have improved. I really like the celestial additions. Those are very nice. I can quickly see where the sun and moon are located in the sky. I also like the tide tables. I live close enough to the ocean to make that a handy feature. I do miss a few things that I could do with my III+ though. First of all, yes, the waypoint names are now 10 characters long instead of 6. However, the III+ had a description line that quite long. That whole entry appears to be gone altogether. Also with the III+ it was easy to find the distance between two waypoints by referencing one by the other. That function seems to be missing too. Overall I definitely give the GPSMAP 76 a two thumbs up so far!! I haven't had a chance to hunt a cache with it yet, but that will happen at lunchtime today!!

Just a question, but is geocaching trademarked? Everyone seems to talk like "If so-and-so doesn't mind.." - I didn't think that geocaching was trademarked.

d should take pride in having done so. I was not one of those, but I certainly appreciate the effort of those people, and I hope that at the various gatherings we will have I will be able to talk to them and give them the credit they are due.

If I could offer a little advice in dealing with the NPS - I'm a skydiver, and we've been fighting for the right to hurl ourselves off cliffs in Yosemite for quite some time now. Please take a hint from some of the people who have ruined it for us - when you plead your case, or write your representative, or do whatever you are thinking of doing regarding placing a cache in a NPS area do this one thing for the rest of us: PLEASE BE FRIENDLY AND INFORMED. Coming off as an *** does not help you get your cache on NPS land. Talk to the authorities. Tell them you want to place your cache on-trail or in an acceptable off-trail location. Talk over WHERE exactly. If they say "absolutely not!" politely ask for a reason, and walk away. If you get snotty or do one little thing to antagonize us [geo-cachers], we're done for. There is no way I'm ever going to be able to BASE El Capitan because one of our own piled in off the wall jumping borrowed gear during a "protest" dive. Try to be civil and work things out with the authorities - take a clue from the post about the Santa Fe trail above - sounds like they are on the right track! --Mike

I'm not a regular and am a newbie to the whole geopcachine scene but I have to add my two cents. I think it's great that someone has set up a site to act as a resource for geocaching. Had it been me I would fight my hardest to make it so that I was "THE RESOURCE". Not because of ego or becuase of money, but because I want a geocaching resource out there that is complete and up to date. How would it be if there were 10 different phone book companies in town. You had 10 phone books in your house and everybody in town submits there phone number to one of them. Imagine searchging for anumber. Isn't it nice that there is "1" database that provides you with the information your searching for. And as for this talk of going commercial and pay to play etc etc etc. You guys really have to be crazy to think that someonbe would do this. Or they would have to be crazy to do it. There is no money in it. Companies out there on the internet that offer far more valuable services are going broke on the net. The only way to maintain a pay to play caching system is to have well maintained caches that are hard to find and offer decent cash prizes.

quote:Originally posted by c.mathis: Once you removed your cache from the property in question, your legal obligation ends. No judge would expect you to be able to remove all reference of the cache from EVERY page on the Internet. It's not possible. Besides, it's the cache that would be illegal, NOT the coordinates themselves. Of course that is considered confrontational to the Park service, and they will take a harder look at stifling the game in more and more locations. I guarantee that. Or worse, you wouldn't feel responsible if there was too much foot traffic to a spot that needed protected, or a place you knew that was dangerous afterwards but had no ability to remove the coordinates? I would consider that extremely careless when the alternative was to keep your coordinates central. I like the idea worse and worse as we talk about it. That, of course, doesn't mean I won't leave the checkbox, but I certainly won't check it for my caches. Jeremy

ow if your wise remarks are a response to my "Can the humans prevail?" or not. If so, I guess I will have to explain to you what I meant by that remark. It had nothing to do with you or with Dave Ulmer. It was a reference to any geocachers who go after the Missions placed by 20th Century Fox and to those cachers evading the imaginary forces of the A.P.E. alliance. It is a fantasy game scout. It has nothing to do with the real feelings you and some others have toward Jeremy. May I suggest that you start a forum discussion of your own and name it in such a way that all who share your views could go there and you could talk to each other about those views. This thread is hopefully going to be about the Project Ape caches and nothing else. Thanks.....Ron