Digital_Cowboy
-
Posts
158 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by Digital_Cowboy
-
-
I have a blue eTrex Legend and every now and then the trip computer displays the wrong max speed. I ride a bicycle for transportation and it'll show a max of 55.8 MPH, I'm good, but not that good or fast.
-
Let’s be careful not to change the thread from geocaching on a bicycle. It’s not a debate about safety.
Thanks!
I'm sorry to have “strayed” but thought bike safety may be important in bike caching.
I’ve gotta agree with ya whether or not one is urban caching on a bike, or caching on a dedicated trail, or caching in a rural setting safety is something that should be something that everyone who is caching with a bike should be aware of.
-
People keep bringing up the "but there are so many sites they'd have to check them all" argument...
Have you ever heard of a search engine? While it would require someone to actually get off their a** and program it, once done they just type the coordinates in and then it searches a huge list of every single site out there, 30? 40? 600? 8 million?
Yes, I've heard of search engines, have you heard of firewalls? Or private networks that aren't hooked to the Internet? Or people who actually put pen to paper, and place said pieces of paper into envelopes put a stamp on said envelope and drop it into the mailbox?
I understand their point. What's yours?
My point is that NOT all resources are going to be searchable by a search engine. As there is code that one can add to their site/page to keep search engines from indexing it.
-
People keep bringing up the "but there are so many sites they'd have to check them all" argument...
Have you ever heard of a search engine? While it would require someone to actually get off their a** and program it, once done they just type the coordinates in and then it searches a huge list of every single site out there, 30? 40? 600? 8 million?
Yes, I've heard of search engines, have you heard of firewalls? Or private networks that aren't hooked to the Internet? Or people who actually put pen to paper, and place said pieces of paper into envelopes put a stamp on said envelope and drop it into the mailbox?
-
There are other cache sites with millions of caches? GC.com only has half a million or so worldwide. What are these other big cache repositories?The problem is that GC isn’t the only one’s keeping a database of caches. There are hundreds of thousands IF not millions by now. On sites OTHER then GC. Should law enforcement check them ALL before taking action???A) I meant that count figuratively/the sum total of all caches
besides the national/international databases there are local and regional databases C) there are caches ”published” in/on news groups, mailing lists
D) there are people who are sharing cache locations without the use of The Net
Can anyone really know how many caches there are world wide? Or for that matter how many databases there are cataloging caches?
-
All right I’ve got it figured out now. My guess is you are one VERY niave person. However, you seem like a very nice person. I want to give you some advice that I hope you take. I’d would go to the SMARTEST person you know. Someone you respect. Someone you know who makes a lot of good decisions.
Explain this whole ordeal to them. Show them the threads you’ve posted. Arm them with all the information you can provide and then listen to their advice.
You do realize you are going to be one VERY lucky person if you walk away from this without legal trouble? Sound crazy? It happens all the time now a days. Government is losing their patience for niave behavior at an expontenial rate.
Here in my state they are now charging fisherman out ice fishing when they get stranded on an ice flow and have to be rescued by a helicopter. Helicopter rides aren’t cheap.
Remember the guys in New York with the little "Blinky" sign that people thought was some bomb scare. They basically tried to hang them. They DID end up in court.
You’ve already admitted that the local papers ARE trying to hang you.
The simple fact is you put a device that 99.9999999999% of the world would suspect to be a BOMB in a public place. If you disrupted just one single persons live in a negative manner and they get an itch to sue you...would you be at ALL suprised? We live in a society today that loves to rally behind the fact that they think you should be punished for your innocennce.
Listen to what EVERYONE is telling you. The idea is grandiose and has some merit but it just won’t work.
I hope you get out of this one with as little problems as possible. Good luck to you.
Naieve?...maybe to a point...but on the low scale, and not many can admit that! I can definatley hold my own when it comes to circumstances that require a bit to realize if its a bad deal, scam or a dangerous situation.
As far as prosecution goes...Actually, I have been told there is no action going to be taken against me in every circumstance so far...every contact has understood 100%.
The paper was just dead wrong in what they published...They had no right to list my place of work or use one of my pictures. They were on the idiotic side of things much as many of the posters in this topic (I mean in reference to the guy who placed it and the nature of it being an idiotic act)...They really exagerated it too!
I will only talk to the officer on Sunday, just to give him my report. As far as I know, he still has the cache with a hole in it and the incident commander told me they actually want to give it back to me...The log is fine!
Ill try to let ya’ll know what becomes of this and what they say about such a Protocol being in place...as far as the smartest person to talk to- Heck, that’d be me!
... Ill share what I find.The newspaper was doing it’s job, reporting the facts as given to them from the police. As the individual who planted the “bomb” and caused hours of mayham and inconvenience to untold thousands of people. What would you have done, IF because of what you’d done someone stuck in the traffic jam died? Or the next time police gets a report of a suspicious device they do nothing and it turns out to be a bomb.
A bomb that explodes killing everyone around it. Also stop and think about this your cache in question appeared to have been an ammo can of the M-16 variety. Pack that half-full of explosives, fill the remainder with ball-bearings. And you know what you have? A VERY large claymor mine.
Trust me when I tell you that regular claymor mine does enough damage. One made from an ammo can is something I don’t want to think about.
The bottom line is you caused the problem by not reading the guidelines. Had you RTFG, YOU could have avoided everything that happened. If you don’t want to RTFG. Before placing your next creative cammoed container show it to a non-caching friend and ask them how they’d react if they stumbled across it out in the “wild” as it were.
-
Near as I can tell, something is done each time. The cache is officially muggled destructively. People should know better and I'll have no sympathy for lost caches when they are so foolishly hidden.
Its not about that...it shouldnt get to that point...Not for the sake of the cache, but for the sake of the time, money and energy spent!
Its not about the cache or sympathy for the idiotic hider! They're are idiotic hiders all over...its about when the next one will be payed a visit by the bomb squad and spent thousands of dollars destroying it- It all could be avoided!
Im tellin ya, its gonna happen over and over again and there is nothing any reviewer, cacher, or bomb squad tech can do, unless it was necessary protocol to check the coords~ Its so easy...Is any body with me???
Totally forget about me...Can ya see past that?
Yes, there is a VERY simple easy way to not avoid (as sadly this is something that's going to happen again) this but, to limit it's happening again. Outlaw ALL forms of GeoCaching, except virtual/locationless caches. Do you really want to see that?
-
Lemme propose this scenario to you:
Someone constructs a small bomb, disguises it as a geocache, and places it in a similar position.
What now?
It is a very sad day for the geocaching community as FTF is LTF. Unlikely scenario, but that would suck and would be a very bad ordeal!
No, I don’t see that as being an unlikely scenario, I see that as being a very real scenario. Terrorists know about geocaching, so it makes sense that they’re going to start constructing their bombs to resemble caches.
Lemme propose this scenario to you:
The simple solution is not to have large suspicious-looking caches near high-traffic public places.
They are out there...they just havent been discovered by bomb squads yet!
Or anyone else, and as soon as they are, they’ll be a black eye for cachers everywhere.
-
I think that if I decided I wanted to place a cache in an area that could be potentially sensitive to this kind of a situation I would contact the local enforcement folks and let them know it was there. If I wasn't comfortable doing that I don't think I would place the cache.
This is an extract from the "Hiding your first cache" section on the gc.com website:
Whatever the container, make sure to mark your cache so that someone who doesn't play can figure out what it is. Most folks mark the container with Geocaching.com, the name of the cache, and any contact information they feel is necessary. More info is better than less.
Based on the pictures from your cache it doesn't appear that you did this. I have empathy for your current situation but not a lot of sympathy.
Forget about me...Its not about me
Its gonna happen again and again, no matter how many rules are in place! Sure things should have been done differently...But I KNOW many caches out there have the potential of something like this happening again, whether it will or not!
Its gonna happen again!...Do ya wanna bet by this time next month- there will be another topic of this nature? 2 geocoins...waddaya say? (not really because betting isnt allowed on the forums, but you can contact me)
DUDE- It would save so much time, money and frustration! Its so easy!
“DUDE” I saw the pictures that you posted of your blown-up cache, and to me they looked suspicious. IF I wasn’t a cacher and I came across something that looked like that you’d better believe that I’d be calling the local law enforcement to have it investigated.
The bottom line “DUDE” is that it is YOUR fault for the way that you camouflaged your container.
And unlike those who posted to your description I do hope that you got into trouble over it.
-
My understanding is that the bicyclist had reason to think the person who ran him off the road was the owner of the dog but couldn’t “prove” it to the satisfaction of the local police.
Some places around here have gotten so bad with the dogs that people who organize rides and mark them around here have sometimes gone to spray painting on the roads something such as “Beware dogs” next to property where dogs who are a threat to cyclists live.
Have a great time cycling this year. I’d move down to many parts of Florida in a minute if I convince the other half.
That’s too bad, as it’s dog owners like that that give good dog owners a bad name.
Some warning is better then no warning. If you’re not a member of any of those groups maybe you should join them and get them to attend local planning meetings to let the local politicians/civic leaders know what y’all want/need in the way of bicycle amenities.
Just tell her that it’s warmer longer, winter/fall doesn’t last anywhere near as long as it does up north. And there are PLENTY of caches to be found down here. A lot of them I’m sure are bicycle accessible.
-
Actually in reality one is safer IF they are on the street with traffic.
What is it they’re safer from if bike riders are in the traffic? I ride on streets and state roads a lot and I would prefer a bike path or sidewalk - if it isn’t being used by pedestrians. I’ve had a few bike wrecks and every one of them, along with the close calls I’ve had, have been with traffic.
Actually in the long run a cyclist IS safer riding with traffic on the streets. Statistics show this, those wrecks, and close calls that you’ve had are because drivers need to be educated that under the DMV (at least here in Florida) that bicycles are considered to be “motor” vehicles and as such they have just as much right to be on the street as they do. I am glad to hear that you give precedence to pedestrians to use the sidewalks. But sidewalks are for pedestrians, and bicyclists on sidewalks will cause more problems for pedestrians then they’ll prevent for themselves. That said, there are times where I too will ride the sidewalk rather then ride on the street.
As I too have had more then my fair share of close calls with ignorant motorists, as well as having ignorant motorists yelling obscenities at me. But I am not going to let it stop me from using a resource that I know I am allowed to use by law.
Also motorists are NOT looking for cyclists on the sidewalk, granted one could argue that they’re rarely looking for us regardless of where we ride. That not withstanding they are not looking for us on the sidewalks, nor are they looking for us on the sidewalks when we’re riding against traffic.
If your city doesn’t have an office for bicycle/pedestrian needs you need to suggest that they put on in place. We have one here in St. Pete, and I am in contact with the woman who heads it up on a regular basis. Letting her know which intersections need their sensors updated so that those of us who do ride bicycles can trip them.
Work to have a law (if one doesn’t already exist) to have bike lanes added to all new roads built, as well as to all roads that are widened/resurfaced. Let the politicians and civic leaders in your community know that bicyclists are there, and will be heard and that we have rights.
Bike paths (I presume you’re talking RR to bike/pedestrian paths/trails or similar conversions) are nice, but they don’t go everywhere that one on a bicycle wishes to go. I know this because when I go out the VA here in St. Pete, I ride the road for more then half of my trip. Then I am able to pick up the dedicated bike/pedestrian trail and take that out to the VA, where I once again have to switch back to the streets.
The only way to make things safe for everyone who wishes to use the road is through education. Don’t wait until there is a story on the news about a pedestrian or bicyclist involved in an automobile accident and one of the reporters to ask “How could this have been avoided?” Instead look around and see how conditions can be improved so that these “inevitable” accident’s DON’T happen in the first place.
And that starts with educating motorists that bicyclists have just as much right to be on the road as they do.
I agree with most of what you said, however, WHILE those motorists are being educated or to avoid the dangerous ones who have no intention of being educated, I sometimes take to sidewalks in very heavy trafficked areas to make it easier to avoid those accidents that shouldn’t happen.
I’m not faulting you that, as I’ve said when it comes to my safety I have, will, and do the same thing. It’s just that it’d be nice IF we didn’t have to. It's the one's who don't/won't be educated that we really need to watch out for.
The local authorities are making some progress but, as you pointed out, more needs done. In the meantime, if I have to do a couple blocks on a sidewalk to avoid rush hour traffic and I can see sometimes as much as a mile ahead that no pedestrians are using the sidewalk, I have no problem using it even though I have a right to the road. Just takes one ignorant motorist to violate that right.I agree whole heartily with you. There are two sayings that ring VERY true. They are:
The right of way does a dead man little good.and
If I place myself at risk, that’s one thing. If someone else places me at risk that’s another thing.Illinois did just pass a law within the last month or two mandating a 3 foot clearance for bicyclists when a car passes, however a police officer went by me yesterday only a couple feet away from me. I will let the city know, of course.I’d read an article in a bickering magazine that had given me the impression that that was the law in all states, save Ks where the law is 4’. Also in Ks, when one renews their drivers license they have to answer a bicycle related question.
police are sometimes less than useful in educating motorists. a local biker was recently run off the road because he had mased someone's dog who was attacking him. The police had no way of proving that the owner of the truck was the driver since the bicyclist didn’t see his face so there couldn’t be a prosecution. So, that driver now thinks it’s right to do that.Was the person who ran him off the road the owners of the dog? That is until he picks the wrong cyclist to mess with. I understand that, up in Clearwater we had an officer ticket and/or arrest a cyclist who had made a left hand turn from (get this) the left hand turn lane... It was of course dismissed when it reached court, but it should never have happened in the first place.
anyway, wish I’d been bicycling in St. Pete the last few months instead of up here shivering.I totally understand that, which is why I prefer Florida to anywhere else.
-
Actually in reality one is safer IF they are on the street with traffic.
What is it they’re safer from if bike riders are in the traffic? I ride on streets and state roads a lot and I would prefer a bike path or sidewalk - if it isn’t being used by pedestrians. I’ve had a few bike wrecks and every one of them, along with the close calls I’ve had, have been with traffic.
Actually in the long run a cyclist IS safer riding with traffic on the streets. Statistics show this, those wrecks, and close calls that you’ve had are because drivers need to be educated that under the DMV (at least here in Florida) that bicycles are considered to be “motor” vehicles and as such they have just as much right to be on the street as they do. I am glad to hear that you give precedence to pedestrians to use the sidewalks. But sidewalks are for pedestrians, and bicyclists on sidewalks will cause more problems for pedestrians then they’ll prevent for themselves. That said, there are times where I too will ride the sidewalk rather then ride on the street.
As I too have had more then my fair share of close calls with ignorant motorists, as well as having ignorant motorists yelling obscenities at me. But I am not going to let it stop me from using a resource that I know I am allowed to use by law.
Also motorists are NOT looking for cyclists on the sidewalk, granted one could argue that they’re rarely looking for us regardless of where we ride. That not withstanding they are not looking for us on the sidewalks, nor are they looking for us on the sidewalks when we’re riding against traffic.
If your city doesn’t have an office for bicycle/pedestrian needs you need to suggest that they put on in place. We have one here in St. Pete, and I am in contact with the woman who heads it up on a regular basis. Letting her know which intersections need their sensors updated so that those of us who do ride bicycles can trip them.
Work to have a law (if one doesn’t already exist) to have bike lanes added to all new roads built, as well as to all roads that are widened/resurfaced. Let the politicians and civic leaders in your community know that bicyclists are there, and will be heard and that we have rights.
Bike paths (I presume you’re talking RR to bike/pedestrian paths/trails or similar conversions) are nice, but they don’t go everywhere that one on a bicycle wishes to go. I know this because when I go out the VA here in St. Pete, I ride the road for more then half of my trip. Then I am able to pick up the dedicated bike/pedestrian trail and take that out to the VA, where I once again have to switch back to the streets.
The only way to make things safe for everyone who wishes to use the road is through education. Don’t wait until there is a story on the news about a pedestrian or bicyclist involved in an automobile accident and one of the reporters to ask “How could this have been avoided?” Instead look around and see how conditions can be improved so that these “inevitable” accident’s DON’T happen in the first place.
And that starts with educating motorists that bicyclists have just as much right to be on the road as they do.
-
Are you really serious? Like law enforcement and bomb sqauds don't have anything better to do with their time than keep track of or search to see if what looks like it might be a bomb is really just a cache.
Even as a geocacher, I'd rather my tax-dollars didn't go to such a ridiculous idea.
Are YOU really serious??? Really now...come on!
What costs more money here? :
A suspicious device is found right? Someone comes to check on it, because they have to...Here are the scenarios that could take place... and then that do take place. Read on
Officer arrives or Bomb Squad...Radios to base "Ive located the odd looking container, that may resemble a bomb"... "I am at N123* 13.637 W39* 16.785... "Would you check on this with the GC website before any further action?"
Dispatch says..."Looks like there is a geocache within 30 feet of your devices location, heres the details" check the cache and on with the day.
OR
Officer arrives..."That does look suspicious! Better call the bomb squad!"
Bomb squad arrives 2 hours later from Eureka, shuts down busy Hwy 101 while setting up base at a nearby rest stop...It occupies a crew of busy Cal-Trans workers, the CHP, The Bomb Squad and busy Hwy 101 travelers for 5 1/2 hours...Backing up traffic, causing a stir, Blowing up the device, only to dicover its a freakin Geocache! Then the follow up with 4 officers involved tracking down where the box came from and contacting its owner, then the report! All this resulting in Thousands and Thousands of dollars! Not to mention whording the front page of the paper 3 days in a row from actual events that should have been on the front page!
Now you tell me what was money well spent with that scenario??? Its a Freakin Bomb Squad...All suspicious containers could be checked within minutes and varified whether or not the container is at least a geocache! Its not like our Bomb Squads go on calls every day!...It should be Protocol!...Its happened too many times- Way more than is even listed on this forum!
Really Now, I am sure there are agencies that send out memo's and other info to these outfits on a weekly if not daily basis!
The problem is that GC isn't the only one's keeping a database of caches. There are hundreds of thousands IF not millions by now. On sites OTHER then GC. Should law enforcement check them ALL before taking action???
-
After the recent mishap with a “really Local cache”
... 
I am thinking to myself “it coulda been so easy”... sure there are rules in place to avoid situations like this, but do they stop? No
I mean it’d be so easy as to somethin like a memo to every bomb squad in the country to make it protocol to give coords as to the whereabouts of the suspicious package, take the 1.5 minutes to type it into the Coordinate search of the GC website and find out if its a cache or a bomb!...Really though- Think about it!
It would save so much time, so much money, the heartache of the unfortunate one who has his cache destroyed, anyone who may be afflicted by it such as the Hwy 101 drivers held up in the recent ongoing and the people taking their time reading about such nonsense that has caused such a stir...Over and Over and Over again!
Sure it gives the paper somethin to write about, but how much trouble does one geocache have to be!
It really is an easy task that should be completed before any action is to be taken!...I have read these things goin on these forums since I started geocaching and isnt it time there was someting done? Doesnt it sound to easy to be true though???
Shouldnt it be protocol???
Instead of making caches so hard to identify with the naked eye, what is wrong with having the outside of the cache clearly marked as being a cache? Also let’s not forget that gc.com ISN’T the only “game” in town. To do what you suggest law enforcement would have to check gc.com, nc.com, tc.com as well as ALL of the local and regional databases to see if something suspicious is or isn’t a cache before taking action.
By the time that they get down checking a ¼ or so of the various on-line databases if it is a bomb it could explode. And what about the cache that has been hidden, but not yet submitted to gc.com, nc.com, tc.com or some other database?
No, it is better in the long run for law enforcement to treat ALL suspicious packages as suspicious packages unless it is clearly marked as being a cache.
And here’s something to think about, what’s to keep a terrorist from creating a bomb that adheres to all of the requirements of a cache, placing it, and getting it approved???? Has anyone give thought to that possibility????
-
Again hiders you need to stop and think whether or not the property you’re about to place a cache on is truly public private property or is it public property. Even IF it’s public property you should still try to get permission from someone who has authority over said property.
The cache that I was talking about has been archived because:
It appears that security at the public parking garage is tightening too much to allow for lingering searches. Thanks to all who tried and the few who succeeded....The cache owner did not get permission first assuming that the parking garage is/was public, it is not. Now that the security personal are doing their job it would appear that he is blaming them for doing their job. There are signs around where his cache is suppose to have been hidden that clearly indicate that said parking garage is for hospital staff/visitors only. And that all others will be towed away at the owners expense.
no permission was sought as this is a public parking garage.Sometimes you run into overly-cautious folks in uniform. Most of the time a simple explanation helps. If not, I generally move along and try again another time.
The above referenced “public” parking garage is NOT a public parking garage it is private property. Something that the hider would have found out had he sought permission.
It is reasonable for people who go out looking for this cache to presume that permission had been secured for the placement of the cache, and that as such it was alright for seekers to go looking for it. Sadly that is not what had happened.
If we wish to be able to continue to hide caches we need to be respectful of those who own or manage the property on which we wish to hide a cache.
-
I like to ride my bike to caches as well. Being in the suburbs of Chicago, you have to have planned route or carry a map for adjustments. Some of the streets do not have sidewalks or bikeways. And with traffic, you do not want to be riding on the street. I print from GSAK using the myGME macro.
If I am not city caching, I drive to forest preserves and cache along the bike routes within them. If I have to go off the trail, I carry my bike in for about 100 feet or so and lay the bike on its side. Heck, coming back I can get 40 feet away and not see my bike. Remember to take a waypoint where you leave your bike.
Actually in reality one is safer IF they are on the street with traffic.
-
I enjoy biking to caches...but I drive my Jeep to the trailhead and then throw a leg over my bike. My brother and I placed and 8 stage cache (Park and RIDE, Sally RIDE...now archived) that covered 15.7 miles of a bike trail (round trip). One guy biked 57 miles one day to complete it and bike the trail...he told me that he'd wanted to bike that section of trail for a few years. I've also done an 18 mile round trip bike ride for one multi cache. And last week I did between 13 and 14 miles for 5 or 6 caches. It is a great way to find caches.
I've ridden 35+ miles to visit friends in the next town. Did it in about 3 hrs.
-
Thanks all for the tips, and info, keep them coming. Glad I'm not the only one on a two wheeler out there lol.
I have brought my bike to several caches and have thanked it indefinatley! I have also did around town caches by bike, but never on an excursion as you speak of! Sounds fun and Ive wanted to...Shouldnt ya have a little more aggressive tire if ya go offroad? I cant remember the tire name, but it had lite tread in th emiddle and bigger knobs on the side. Makes a HUGE difference in the dirt than straight street tires did, cuz Ive tried those too!...I do love those Street tires on the street though. Feels like you can almost drag a knee if ya wanted! (well not really)
Got the bags, the GPS mount...Shoot- Your ready!
I had a pure mountain bike before I purchased this one, and as the distance I was able to ride each day increased I decided to get the "next best" thing. I almost bought a pure road bike, but then I would have missed out on half the fun
The bike I purchased is a hybrid type, good for both road and trail. The tires are also a hybrid type, Town and Country made by Continental. While they lack the knobbies that help more in dirt, I find the tread holds extremely well off-road. So far, after about 300 local miles on road and single track I have yet to see any downside to these. I am also a big proponent of Slime (liquid tube puncture filler) and have used it for years, but I will definitely look into the Kevlar strips if I end up spending more time on trails than road.
p.s. The wallpaper is in my brothers house, in the laundry room where I store my bike. It is pretty bad isn't it? lol
I use Specialized's Armadilo road tires on my Hardrock Mountain Bike. They have kevlar from bead-to-bead and haven't had a problem with them.
-
Hello there...After a search of the forums and finding few posts I have to ask. I am planning on using my bicycle for the main transportation while Geo-caching. Are there any others that do this, and can give some insight into the tactics used while hunting caches? I know it is a bit more obvious than using a car sometimes, but on the same note it can be easier to reach some out of the way caches.
Do you hide your bike in a brushy area or lock it to a tree if you need to hike to an area? How many people will go adventure touring for caches (2 or more days at a time camping along the way)?
I have seen a scant few articles online about dedicated bike geocaching, most were a gear review and had little or no info relative to the actual hunt. Any tips, tricks or recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks.
I use a bicycle as my primary mode of transportation. So when I am out caching I am using it to get me from cache-to-cache.
Being as it is my primary mode of transportation I tend to keep it with me when I am out caching, but if I had to leave it in an area while I went looking. Then depending on whether or not it would take me out of sight of my bike or not I would lock it up.
-
I do believe there are instances where we need to get away from the stump-the-geocacher mentality and go back to stump-the-muggle. I’m not advocating blaze orange large containers. Let’s be reasonable. We all know there are hide-types that a cacher will recognize instantly while surviving against muggle discovery for years. The closer to a sensitive area the more appropriate this type of hide becomes.
Exactly.
Hiders also need to remember that just because they see a stretch of land/property that they assume to be public doesn’t mean that it is public property. It may very well be private property. IF you are EVER in doubt as to the nature of a piece of property ASK the following questions:
1. Who owns this piece of property?
2. Is it really public property or is it private property?
3. Does the owner of the property want “thousands” of people “trampling” through their land on a “daily” basis?
Also look around to see if there are any signs posted that may suggest that the piece of land is private vs. public, such as “Parking for staff/visitors only, all others will be towed at owners expense.” A sign like that would be VERY good evidence that the parking lot, garage is private property. And if a cache is hidden in such a location then those who go searching for it have every reason to believe that the hider got permission to hide it.
Yes, there are some out there who feel that it is easier to apologize AFTER the fact then it is to ask for permission. But stop and really think about what it is you are doing. You may very well be hurting the hobby by thinking like that.
-
I see so many points flying here and then conversations about Monty Python my head is spinning.
While I can understand the original posters thoughts on the matter and others, I do think it comes down to following the restrictions set in place by Groundspeak to ensure the hides are correct. It is up to the hider to ensure that the cache isn't all but impossible. It is up to the searcher to be responsible. If it starts getting questionable... stop. Do not take DNF as a failure. Walk away. Think about it. Give it a couple days.... Reviewers who are reviewing a cache should actually pay attention to where it is and if it is in an area that is known to have rare wildlife or vegetation, make sure this cache is clear and concise to avoid damage - if they even approve it at all.
Fact is property owners have a right to allow or restrict caches. If a park chooses to restrict caches and remove them, perhaps it is the hiders fault for not seeking permission in the first place. Sure, public places we see as "public places" and in most cases, permission is not necessary on the whole, but when you are talking about places with "rare and sensitive vegetation" (not standard grass and regular ole trees) perhaps it would be in the hiders best interest to ask first.
The example relating a hider to a person who forgot to lock their front door and got robbed is a bit off kilter. A person never asks to be robbed, but a person who hides a cache is doing it HOPING someone comes to find it. I have never left my door unlocked and prayed for someone to rob me. So - while a good attempt to liken caching to something real and negative.... sorry. Don't see it.
SO... what I'm saying is it really is all of geocaching's responsibility. Groundspeak, hiders, finders, reviewers.... When I hide a cache I have to make sure its good and not going to endanger anyone or anything. When I find one, it is my responsibility to not go through it like a bull in a china shop and just enjoy where I am.
Unfortunately, my biggest complaint about using parks is that.. if its not a park or a cemetary.... its generally not a cache location. BLAH
So.
Save Wildlife, yay.
Save plants, yay.
Save caching, yay.
We all agree. Carry on.
Let's not also forget that Groundspeak/gc.com ISN'T the only "game" in town. there are other national/international web sites/databases/groups out there. There are also pleanty of local and regional web sites/databases/groups out there. And it's irresponsible for Groundspeak/gc.com to set the rules for everyone who caches.
-
I've got an idea! How about we just plainly tell people exactly where the cache is so that there is absolutely no danger of any problems whatsoever.
Even if a cache is planted near a rose garden, shouldn't people know better than trompling on rose bushes? Since when did I become responsible for the stupid behavior of other people? And in addition, you'd have me believe that in addition to being responsible for other people's bad behavior, I'm also responsible for other people's perceived behavior.
No thanks! (although, if a bunch of morons destroyed the rose bushes, I'd probably archive the cache, but that in no way would prevent me from bringing people to a garden to enjoy rose bushes)
You're missing the point, both the hider AND the searcher are responsible for the damage caused.
If the hider goes out of their way to place a cache in an area in such a way that the average person using common sense cannot find the cache. Utilizing the description and any published hints. And a searcher comes along, printout in hand, hint decrypted. Their GPSr "tells" the seeker is 0.0' from the cache. Their GPSr is also giving them an accuracy of 10' in the area where the cache is hidden.
This mean's that they will be searching an area 10' in diameter. Which can encompass a fair amount of territory to search. It is, can, should be conceivable to the hider that given no two GPSr (even same make/model) are going to give identical readings. And that even the accuracy can and will vary depending on cloud cover, trees, buildings, etc.
So the search area could end up being larger or smaller. And seekers having exhausted all logical areas for will start to look in the non-logical areas. And by doing so that can result in damage being done to the environment.
This is very similar to the bans shopping centers, parks, and what not have put on bicycles, skateboards, roller blades. They've put those bans in place because they've learned that skateboards, bicycles and roller blades/skates can damage railings, stairs and other equipment. As well those who engage in those activities can injure themselves or others.
EVERYTHING we do involves risks, but there are things we can do to minimize those risks. And if you place a cache that's a 5-* difficulty in an area where you have every reason to believe that seekers will end up searching feet or yards away from the site. Then YOU have an obligation to minimize the damage that will result from people looking for it.
You as the hider also have an obligation to secure permission before placing a cache. I was out looking for a cache in a parking garage rhat the hider thought was public property. While I was looking for the cache I was approached by a security guard, wanting to know who I was and what I was doing. He asked to see my ID as well as taking down my name, address and phone number. As well as infoming me that it was private property. His reaction and actions told me that hider did NOT get permission before hiding their cache. Because if they had the security guard would have known what I was doing.
-
OK, since there's a problem with the concept of foreseeing problems caused by a well-hidden cache in a sensitive area, what about an existing cache that has become the epicenter of searcher-caused destruction? The scenario: You own a cache, and with each new log come new reports of damage to the surroundings: do you do nothing and say "their fault" or take some kind of action to correct the problem?
And if your answer is "take action" why is it necessary to wait until a predictable problem predictably occurs?
Because the problem is not as predictable as some are making it appear to be.
If we assume that it's true that someone peeled all the bark off of a tree while looking for a cache, who'da thunk it? Should we no longer hide caches in the general area of trees? No caches should be placed in or near a parking lot because some cachers might break into cars looking for the cache.
I guess I should look at this as good news, because I can frequently predict which caches are going to cause problems. Must mean I have a special gift.
In the case of the example cache, it wasn't the proximity to the tree, it was the extreme camouflage. When a cache is hidden in a chink in a stone wall, my clairvoyance enables me to predict that cachers will end up loosening stones and pulling out bits of mortar. Spooky.
The fact that you have to reach for such extreme scenarios as cachers breaking into cars* indicates the weakness of your position. I have not said that hiders are responsible for every action taken by searchers. They are not. But when you hide something with the objective of making it difficult to find, you by definition are anticipating where a reasonable person might look, and not putting it there. So you do have the ability to predict common responses by searchers and to some extent manipulate them.
You can't hide something effectively without going through this process of elimination. You'll be wrong sometimes, of course, but if you know that you're placing a tough hide, look around at those obvious places that you didn't put the cache and try to assess whether they'd be damaged by a clumsy manual search. Is that too much to expect?
If you couldn't predict that a particular cache would be hard to find, how would you assign a difficulty rating anyhow?
Look, it's perfectly understandable that folks are sick and tired of our litigious society that rewards people for irresponsibility and idiocy. Spill hot coffee on yourself in a moving car? Make millions suing the restaurant! It's ridiculous. It's enough to make you want to make a sacrament of individual responsibility in the geo-world. Fair enough, but hiders bear some responsibility, too.
*BTW, caches shouldn't be placed in parking lots for a whole variety of valid reasons that have nothing to do with vehicular B&E
I fully agree that the cache hider/owner needs to also take responsibility for the damage done to a given area. Just as motorists need to responsibility for their actions. Monday on my home from the local library I had a woman turn into a driveway/side street/intersection that I was in and come within in inches of me on my bicycle. Last week, or the week before I was working my way over to left hand turn lane when a woman in a mini-van pulling out of the parking lot of a local grocery store. I can see that she is looking south, but doesn't look north until she starts to actually pull out. I see her say/mouth the words "oh s$%t." As I'm sure she thought that I had "just popped up out of nowhere." Yet had she bothered to LOOK both ways BEFORE pulling out she'd have seen me on my bicycle BEFORE she pulled out.
-
I have agree with OP on some points and other responders on other points. Some cache owners go to such extremes in making their caches as hard as possible to find that on top of using the sites encryption option that they write the hint with no space/punctuation or backwards with no space/punctuation. Or a keyword in the hint backwards.
Cache owners/hiders also need to remember that just because they perceive land/property to be “public” just because the public uses it. Doesn't mean that it's public property.
I was out looking for an “offset” or puzzle cache today. It has a puzzle on the description page one needs to solve in order to truly find the cache.
The first time I went looking for the cache I thought that the puzzle was near the published coords. I looked for I don't know how long. Wrote the cache owner, and had it explained that there is one or more clues hidden in/on the description page.
I went out again this past Sunday after obtaining the correct coords. Still didn't find it. Got a little help from another cacher, went back out Monday looked still no luck. While I was looking Monday I was approached by a security guard wanting to know:
Who was I?
What was I doing?
He also wanted to see my ID, get my address, name, date of birth, phone number.
I politely explained why I was there and what I was doing. Fortunately I had the description printed out and had said printout with me. After taking my information down he informed me that I was on private property and to leave.
When I got home I contacted the cache owner, asking if “he” had gotten permission to place “his” cache. They wrote back saying:
“no permission was sought as this is a public parking garage.
Sometimes you run into overly-cautious folks in uniform. Most of the time a simple explanation helps. If not, I generally move along and try again another time.”
I called the local police non-emergency line, and inquired about said “public” parking garage. And was informed that it was indeed private property. The only thing that I can deduce from the cache owners response is that they're under the false assumption that if the public has access to the property it must be “public property.”
This simply is not true, as there is such a thing as private property WITH public access. This covers grocery stores, malls, bowing lanes, and a wide host of other types of property.
So before you hide you're cache look around to see if there are any signs that might indicate that you're on private property. Such as this parking garage, there were signs on EVERY level indicating that it was ONLY for the business staff and visitors.
I also have to agree with those posters who have noted the damage that mother nature herself is capable of doing. I grew up in area up in NY that flooded rather spectacularly EVERY spring when the snow melted. I am now back home in Florida and anyone who's lived down here through just one hurricane season can tell you that even a “mild” hurricane season inflicts some damage. And mother nature bounces back nicely.
As a matter of fact IF left alone mother nature can take better care of herself, by herself. Then if man tries to help. An EXCELLENT example of this is when Mt. St. Helen blew. One side was left untouched by man, and the other side was “helped” by man.
Which side do you think recovered quickest?
Herman
Live Long and Prosper
besides the national/international databases there are local and regional databases 
... 
... 
eTrex Legend (Blue case)
in GPS technology and devices
Posted
I can count on it happening several times a week. The only time I can see myself hitting 55+ miles is going down the Sunshine Skyway bridge which is illegal or teathered to a car. I hit 300plus miles in a friends truck.