T3am Bandito

I guess its on then... key chain TB it is! and to all those that think its to big... just dont pick it up anyway. what are the ods! <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

errr avg weight and size of a keychain. not a tb duh! <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

If i created a TB with the mission of having every one who finds it attach a keychain from where they are from.... how many carriers or keychains would it take for the TB to become to big/ heavy etc? For this we have to assume an average weight and size of the TB, of course. Assuming 20 a year (overestimate) i bet in 10 years it would be the size of a cantelope. Weight err wait let me first compute the surface area of said cantelope, then compute the avg size of a keychain based upon the local selection at a truck stop. What do you think? <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

i like variety Hook it up! <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

i think we should do a panty cache! take a panty leave a panty <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

count us in if this ever comes culminates! <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

count us in if this ever comes culminates! <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

i appreciate your input. While one may view my opinions as extreme... regarding the trampling of saplings.. I do feel I am being extreme... rather I feel I am not opposed to one person squishing a tree... but I think I am zoomed out and looking at the big picture like caches receiving dozens of visitors every month. The balence nature is usually capable of, I feel can be o so easily offset when you look at the cumulitive effects of a readily visited cache... granted not all caches receive visits with a regularity that would alarm me.. but as of yet I hae not seen data to show me our sport is decreasing in popularity. The only thing I have to look at is Garmens sales figures. But I feel if a cache is getting 15 visits a month now... in 5 years when we all have gps wristwatches or something... there may be double that. And perhaps that figure is a conservitive estimate. I am as putting as much weight and importance in cachers of the future as in our impacts now. In fact imho the technologys lack of total accuracy is in all probability assisting in the minimization of impact becasue of the fluctuating accuracy. I mean with + or - 40 feet many cachers may not be approaching the cache from the same route... but 5 years from now, theoretically will the technology be so exact as to elim

i appreciate your input. While one may view my opinions as extreme... regarding the trampling of saplings.. I do feel I am being extreme... rather I feel I am not opposed to one person squishing a tree... but I think I am zoomed out and looking at the big picture like caches receiving dozens of visitors every month. The balence nature is usually capable of, I feel can be o so easily offset when you look at the cumulitive effects of a readily visited cache... granted not all caches receive visits with a regularity that would alarm me.. but as of yet I hae not seen data to show me our sport is decreasing in popularity. The only thing I have to look at is Garmens sales figures. But I feel if a cache is getting 15 visits a month now... in 5 years when we all have gps wristwatches or something... there may be double that. And perhaps that figure is a conservitive estimate. I am as putting as much weight and importance in cachers of the future as in our impacts now. In fact imho the technologys lack of total accuracy is in all probability assisting in the minimization of impact becasue of the fluctuating accuracy. I mean with + or - 40 feet many cachers may not be approaching the cache from the same route... but 5 years from now, theoretically will the technology be so exact as to elim

i appreciate your input. While one may view my opinions as extreme... regarding the trampling of saplings.. I do feel I am being extreme... rather I feel I am not opposed to one person squishing a tree... but I think I am zoomed out and looking at the big picture like caches receiving dozens of visitors every month. The balence nature is usually capable of, I feel can be o so easily offset when you look at the cumulitive effects of a readily visited cache... granted not all caches receive visits with a regularity that would alarm me.. but as of yet I hae not seen data to show me our sport is decreasing in popularity. The only thing I have to look at is Garmens sales figures. But I feel if a cache is getting 15 visits a month now... in 5 years when we all have gps wristwatches or something... there may be double that. And perhaps that figure is a conservitive estimate. I am as putting as much weight and importance in cachers of the future as in our impacts now. In fact imho the technologys lack of total accuracy is in all probability assisting in the minimization of impact becasue of the fluctuating accuracy. I mean with + or - 40 feet many cachers may not be approaching the cache from the same route... but 5 years from now, theoretically will the technology be so exact as to eliminate this variable? I dont know but it would not suprise me. I guess I am just trying to stir up some interest, conversation and contemplation of this issue... because I feel strongly that as time marches on they will IMHO be much more pronounced, and we will be more regulated. Speaking of regulation, I just got my cache placement permit form from Cleveland Metroparks.. thats another topic but its on point because they are acknolodging impacts and attempting to regulate them via amoung other things requiring that they are moved to a new locale annually. T thnx eldiablo for your balanced approach to this matter <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

i appreciate your input. While one may view my opinions as extreme... regarding the trampling of saplings.. I do feel I am being extreme... rather I feel I am not opposed to one person squishing a tree... but I think I am zoomed out and looking at the big picture like caches receiving dozens of visitors every month. The balence nature is usually capable of, I feel can be o so easily offset when you look at the cumulitive effects of a readily visited cache... granted not all caches receive visits with a regularity that would alarm me.. but as of yet I hae not seen data to show me our sport is decreasing in popularity. The only thing I have to look at is Garmens sales figures. But I feel if a cache is getting 15 visits a month now... in 5 years when we all have gps wristwatches or something... there may be double that. And perhaps that figure is a conservitive estimate. I am as putting as much weight and importance in cachers of the future as in our impacts now. In fact imho the technologys lack of total accuracy is in all probability assisting in the minimization of impact becasue of the fluctuating accuracy. I mean with + or - 40 feet many cachers may not be approaching the cache from the same route... but 5 years from now, theoretically will the technology be so exact as to eliminate this variable? I dont know but it would not suprise me. I guess I am just trying to stir up some interest, conversation and contemplation of this issue... because I feel strongly that as time marches on they will IMHO be much more pronounced, and we will be more regulated. Speaking of regulation, I just got my cache placement permit form from Cleveland Metroparks.. thats another topic but its on point because they are acknolodging impacts and attempting to regulate them via amoung other things requiring that they are moved to a new locale annually. T thnx eldiablo for your balanced approach to this matter <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

I get paid all day to worry about environmental impact as a environmental scientist. It's to hard to turn it off, I understand your entitled to your opinion but.. i think you may have weeded out a bit much in your generalazation of my verbage. Its ok though, point taken! <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

I get paid all day to worry about environmental impact as a environmental scientist. It's to hard to turn it off, I understand your entitled to your opinion but.. i think you may have weeded out a bit much in your generalazation of my verbage. Its ok though, point taken! <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

It seems I evoked the reaction I was hoping to! Really though, I wanted to get this topic rolling.. and I just like you cache with my family. I can aptly see why I came accross as a anti family geocaching type, but please let me explain a little bit further...( I am really just antiextended family geochaching or more specificly.. you your kids, your cousins and a bunch of friends treading off trail, which is illeagle in certain parks and trampling the heck out of our parks!!) you see I have just recently visited 2 caches that were off the trail so to speak, both of which had previous to my arrival been logged by a group of 7 and 9 people It was cousins and friends and and extended family... (thats what the log said) anyway, to make a long story short and to get to the ROOT CAUSE of my rant, we were in a park that restricted hikers to staying on trails. Placing a cache off the trail in this situation is sort of understandable(high traffic locale)... but when the path is so worn in that all the saplings and ground cover is stomped... it irritated me... (same situation at both locations) Now it was obvious to me that this was a recently worn path, i.e. the broken branches still had leaves on them that were green etc etc... but I was preatty sure that it the large group who precedeed me in logging the cache that created this level of distrubance... seriously... you could totally follow this fresh trail to the cache. NOW if you all dont agree that this not only was wrong from the perspective of eco impact, but also from the perspective of breaking park rules... I dont know what to tell ya! Other than the fact that I have heard and read park employees cite this type of trail breaking as one of the hand full of reasons geocaching is nolonger available in all National Parks, and is getting ready to be prohibited in British Colombia and Ontario Provincial Parks.. as well as many Canadian national parks. I am not anti family, if you knew me you would know I love kids dearly, and I try to lead them by example. Individual replies- DenaliNW- I can not provide you with impact data for small families geocaching, my post was not intentionally aimed at small families. As you see at the top I believe the number I used was 6. Granted the term small is relitive (small family to me means like 3 or 4) Smoochnme- "Give me a break! Being critical on a guy for bringing his family along for a walk in the woods. Lighten up pal! If it bothers you so much find a new hobby and leave us alone." Umm I was only critical of people who bring large groups... like 6+ so umm calm down. if you like to violate park rules thats your own buisness, I try to stay on the trail to prevent all sorts of stuff, and when I do go off the trail I try and tread lightly... the people who motovated this rant (the large group) were not being so considerate. Alternitively, I could care less if you bring your whole family reunion to a cache in an urban concrete type of area... though it may be hard to be covert Alan2- why cant I cite multiple reasons for not caching in large groups? One, I cited the obvious environmental impact (trail breaking, trampled saplings, etc etc) and I also cited the fact that the trail formed by large groups is easier to follow.. I mention this... because I am trying to appeal also to the people who dont give a ratz *** about nature or ecology and may pay attention when I am talking about how it could spoil a hunt by leading you right to the cache. El diablo - Even though your comment is predominently a sarcastic one... I will respond. It made me laff... actually I have managed to take public or mass transit to 3 or 4 caches in urban areas, of course in rural areas thats less of an option, rest assured I am fueling my ecocar with electricity from solar power! lol. I do like the bug on the windshield part! in closing I restate what is obvious to me and (IMHO) 1. large groups of people can and do wear a wider swath of trail into the area leading to a cache. 2 large groups of people make it rather difficult to be covert, as many many cache's directions specifily state something like "please be covert and low key as the cache is in a well traveled park and we would not want it found" 3. I am not against families caching, I am against parents who knowingly break state, federal or local laws with their children and families by treading off the trail in State, National or local parks. I believe there to be a direct correlation between the amount of off trail caching on public lands, and the level of animosity with in the park management industry towards geocaching. As things get worn in, and in my local national parks, caches are confiscated and owners notified and a sign is erected in the cache's place that it has been confiscated by the NPS. Now in conclusion I must say that I respect all of you for your opinions, thats what this is all about, we discuss our opinions. Though it is a bit hard not to take some of your jabs personally, I know I provoked them all. I appreciate all of your input.. even the bugs on the windshield part 8-) I think at least some of you will agree to the hopefull now more apparent moral of my story? <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

It seems I evoked the reaction I was hoping to! Really though, I wanted to get this topic rolling.. and I just like you cache with my family. I can aptly see why I came accross as a anti family geocaching type, but please let me explain a little bit further...( I am really just antiextended family geochaching or more specificly.. you your kids, your cousins and a bunch of friends treading off trail, which is illeagle in certain parks and trampling the heck out of our parks!!) you see I have just recently visited 2 caches that were off the trail so to speak, both of which had previous to my arrival been logged by a group of 7 and 9 people It was cousins and friends and and extended family... (thats what the log said) anyway, to make a long story short and to get to the ROOT CAUSE of my rant, we were in a park that restricted hikers to staying on trails. Placing a cache off the trail in this situation is sort of understandable(high traffic locale)... but when the path is so worn in that all the saplings and ground cover is stomped... it irritated me... (same situation at both locations) Now it was obvious to me that this was a recently worn path, i.e. the broken branches still had leaves on them that were green etc etc... but I was preatty sure that it the large group who precedeed me in logging the cache that created this level of distrubance... seriously... you could totally follow this fresh trail to the cache. NOW if you all dont agree that this not only was wrong from the perspective of eco impact, but also from the perspective of breaking park rules... I dont know what to tell ya! Other than the fact that I have heard and read park employees cite this type of trail breaking as one of the hand full of reasons geocaching is nolonger available in all National Parks, and is getting ready to be prohibited in British Colombia and Ontario Provincial Parks.. as well as many Canadian national parks. I am not anti family, if you knew me you would know I love kids dearly, and I try to lead them by example. Individual replies- DenaliNW- I can not provide you with impact data for small families geocaching, my post was not intentionally aimed at small families. As you see at the top I believe the number I used was 6. Granted the term small is relitive (small family to me means like 3 or 4) Smoochnme- "Give me a break! Being critical on a guy for bringing his family along for a walk in the woods. Lighten up pal! If it bothers you so much find a new hobby and leave us alone." Umm I was only critical of people who bring large groups... like 6+ so umm calm down. if you like to violate park rules thats your own buisness, I try to stay on the trail to prevent all sorts of stuff, and when I do go off the trail I try and tread lightly... the people who motovated this rant (the large group) were not being so considerate. Alternitively, I could care less if you bring your whole family reunion to a cache in an urban concrete type of area... though it may be hard to be covert Alan2- why cant I cite multiple reasons for not caching in large groups? One, I cited the obvious environmental impact (trail breaking, trampled saplings, etc etc) and I also cited the fact that the trail formed by large groups is easier to follow.. I mention this... because I am trying to appeal also to the people who dont give a ratz *** about nature or ecology and may pay attention when I am talking about how it could spoil a hunt by leading you right to the cache. El diablo - Even though your comment is predominently a sarcastic one... I will respond. It made me laff... actually I have managed to take public or mass transit to 3 or 4 caches in urban areas, of course in rural areas thats less of an option, rest assured I am fueling my ecocar with electricity from solar power! lol. I do like the bug on the windshield part! in closing I restate what is obvious to me and (IMHO) 1. large groups of people can and do wear a wider swath of trail into the area leading to a cache. 2 large groups of people make it rather difficult to be covert, as many many cache's directions specifily state something like "please be covert and low key as the cache is in a well traveled park and we would not want it found" 3. I am not against families caching, I am against parents who knowingly break state, federal or local laws with their children and families by treading off the trail in State, National or local parks. I believe there to be a direct correlation between the amount of off trail caching on public lands, and the level of animosity with in the park management industry towards geocaching. As things get worn in, and in my local national parks, caches are confiscated and owners notified and a sign is erected in the cache's place that it has been confiscated by the NPS. Now in conclusion I must say that I respect all of you for your opinions, thats what this is all about, we discuss our opinions. Though it is a bit hard not to take some of your jabs personally, I know I provoked them all. I appreciate all of your input.. even the bugs on the windshield part 8-) I think at least some of you will agree to the hopefull now more apparent moral of my story? <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

I love a well educated well written reply from people who are knowledgable on the subject at hand. Environmental Impacts... hmm look around buddy, do you have your blinders on to the current state of things? I bet you were real ticked off we voted down drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Get used to "environmental impact crap" its the future... why dont you spend 2 minutes reading up on the growth of the greens as a political party in the USA.. then counter my opinion. As for not brining all your rugrats along on a cache hunt... I can tell from the get go you are only interested in providing your self with a bit of entertainment on the weekend.. and not with preserving our hobby, why else would you insist on brining a group of people which makes if virtually impossable to be covert or to not blow a cache's cover. Im glad you have your best interests in mind and thinking so selfishly... I guess that makes sense considering your stance in eco impacts. I am not even going to delve into the difference between the impact of 6 at once or three seperate groups of 2. That has been talked out on other threads that luckily your nOOb self was not a participant in. <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

I love a well educated well written reply from people who are knowledgable on the subject at hand. Environmental Impacts... hmm look around buddy, do you have your blinders on to the current state of things? I bet you were real ticked off we voted down drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Get used to "environmental impact crap" its the future... why dont you spend 2 minutes reading up on the growth of the greens as a political party in the USA.. then counter my opinion. As for not brining all your rugrats along on a cache hunt... I can tell from the get go you are only interested in providing your self with a bit of entertainment on the weekend.. and not with preserving our hobby, why else would you insist on brining a group of people which makes if virtually impossable to be covert or to not blow a cache's cover. Im glad you have your best interests in mind and thinking so selfishly... I guess that makes sense considering your stance in eco impacts. I am not even going to delve into the difference between the impact of 6 at once or three seperate groups of 2. That has been talked out on other threads that luckily your nOOb self was not a participant in. <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

i am rofl lmao @ weblings post about members only sattelites! holey ****e! your serious I am all about VIP membership to elite satalites ! I heard their signal contains way better stuff to! and you get a special name tag to where in certain areas! <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

i am rofl lmao @ weblings post about members only sattelites! holey ****e! your serious I am all about VIP membership to elite satalites ! I heard their signal contains way better stuff to! and you get a special name tag to where in certain areas! <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

many regions of the USA people are blown away by naturism or nudism. go out west and hike around or visit a primitive hot springs and you will see its a way of life / hobbey for many people including whole families. I dont even need to mention how narrow minded this stigma attached to nudism is... look to our European buddies for guidance on how we should really interpret this activity. No worries man, our culture has so many hang ups about this stuff compaired to many parts of the rest of the world where people wouldnt even bat and eye at this and this thread would never exist now then... im gettin buck nekked n caching wOOT ! not in Ohio yo I would be jailed in a flash get it in a flash! <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

many regions of the USA people are blown away by naturism or nudism. go out west and hike around or visit a primitive hot springs and you will see its a way of life / hobbey for many people including whole families. I dont even need to mention how narrow minded this stigma attached to nudism is... look to our European buddies for guidance on how we should really interpret this activity. No worries man, our culture has so many hang ups about this stuff compaired to many parts of the rest of the world where people wouldnt even bat and eye at this and this thread would never exist now then... im gettin buck nekked n caching wOOT ! not in Ohio yo I would be jailed in a flash get it in a flash! <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

I can see we are on the same page as far as urban archeology and ruins exploration. I may have to contribute some of my photog to your site, as it seems appropriatly fitting. Keep up the good work... there are alot of other site out there on this to... i need to find the links... a lot on Nike Missle silo exploration and of course college tunnels <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

I can see we are on the same page as far as urban archeology and ruins exploration. I may have to contribute some of my photog to your site, as it seems appropriatly fitting. Keep up the good work... there are alot of other site out there on this to... i need to find the links... a lot on Nike Missle silo exploration and of course college tunnels <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

hey if carnivour or eschalon comes looking for me too u never saw me ok? im sending this thru a ananamizer routed thru 23 foreign ip's that ive |-|4xOrz so no one can find us, i mean me seriously the FBI ya'll... i bet we are all on the 'list' now just for contributing to this thread or even to this hobby. <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

hey if carnivour or eschalon comes looking for me too u never saw me ok? im sending this thru a ananamizer routed thru 23 foreign ip's that ive |-|4xOrz so no one can find us, i mean me seriously the FBI ya'll... i bet we are all on the 'list' now just for contributing to this thread or even to this hobby. <-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0-> S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []