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AZAppels

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Everything posted by AZAppels

  1. Maybe this is something that only bothers me but has anyone noticed the increasing number of logs that have no description of the loggers experience. It seems it is mainly from relatively new cachers but they will log "TFTC" or "logged from my iphone" when reporting the find. Cachers have taken some time to create the cache, come up with a clever container only to have the lazy logger report "TFTC". Owners like to know the finder appreciates their efforts. Let me know your feelings and if I am the only person offended by the lazy loggers I'll grin and bear it. Thanks for your input.
  2. This is the first disk I have found. It is from the U.S. General Land Office Survey. Would be intersested in knowing if this is of any use. Thanks
  3. I need to apologize to those offended in my reply. My impression of the event was that the person in the picture had gone off the trail--staying on the trail was proper and I apologize. The original site was an excellent vehicle to increase interest in the Center. I also hope the people in the picture will continue to seek caches---and I hope to see you at one so I can apologize in person. The comment was meant about people not respecting the place--fortunately there are not many of them.
  4. It would appear that some things could be learned from this: first--It looks as if the Rock Art Center did not want to really know about a virtual cache. THey did not want to hear there is nothing physical involved with this cache---only an invitation to visit the Center. When we visited the Center it was only because of the cache and enjoyed the visit. The Center will actually have fewer visitors because of this. second--it is incumbent on cachers (and 99.9% of us realize this) to respect the location of the cache. In this case there were clear boundaries and to touch the petroglyp was definately not allowed. The person who violated the rules must realize she ruined what should have been an educational experience to be found thru geocaching. For the Rock Art Center to feel this way because of the stupidity of one person (two actually--one in the picture, the other taking the picture) is not encouraging others who want to come and learn.
  5. It would appear there is a lesson here---one that the Rock Art Center did not really want to understand what a "virtual cache" really is. In this case there was nothing hidden, only an invitation to explore the museum and to understand what it means. Rather short sighted on their part as this actually increased interest in the museum. I for one would probably never have gone had it not been for the virtual cashe. The other lesson is that in finding all caches the finder must respect whatever rules govern the location. If there are signs saying DO NOT TOUCH then we must not touch. Shame on the person that did and ruined an excellent site for everyone else. quote:Originally posted by Rothstafari:This thread contains lessons for all. There was a virtual cache located on the Grounds of the DVRAC that was posted on the site. In one of the logs, there was a photo of a young girl with her arm resting on a petroglyph rock. When someone from the art center requested the 'removal' of the virtual cache, Jeremy attempted to explain to her the difference between a virtual cache and a physical cache. Anyway, she got a bit upset and here is the subsequent conversation. In my personal opinion, I disagree with her approach (as you can read below) but, in the interest of fairness and making this game better for all, I am soliciting your feedback on her approach and ours so that we can hopefully fare better in the future. (Her name has been removed by us. The most recent email is at the top so you may want to start at the bottom) -Rothstafari From: "Cache Inquiries" To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 22:32:27 -0800 Local: Tues, Feb 18 2003 10:32 pm Duration: 54:07 minutes Subject: [#634] Re: Re: Request for removal from your website -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear xxxxxxx, Thank you for your further consideration of this issue. Assuming that you'd like me to pass your message along to all potential Arizona Geocachers, rather than paraphrase, I am going to post the full content of your note below to the Geocaching forums on our Website. I'll remove your name and position, assuming this is your preference (if I am incorrect, let me know and I'd be happy to include it). Posting the note is probably the most effective means of alerting Geocachers to the new rules in Arizona, keeping Geocachers from placing caches there without permission and helping them to understand how the center feels about their potential patronage. Please note once again that our company does not place caches, we maintain a cache listing service for caches and written content submitted by others. Our company does not advocate breaking any law, we merely allow people to post constitutionally protected content on our website. Regarding the Dam cache, I am sure it comes as a surprise to you, but we appreciate your notification of this issue. We agree with the proposition that Geocachers must get permission from land managers before placing a cache and are always willing to work with land managers and owners to resolve potential issues. Without question, this cache should be removed. However, since there are 40,000+ cache listings, if possible, we'd appreciate some help further identifying the cache specifically so we can contact the owner. Coordinates, a website link or, I suppose, the eventual contact from the Maricopa County Flood Control will undoubtedly help. Regarding your statement, "we do not think your website is the kind of PR the Center is seeking.", quite frankly, I feel that this statement is an insult to all of us and, in fact, take it personally. It amazes me to think that you would so openly judge and potentially punish thousands by the actions of a small few. The majority of the Geocaching community is made up of good people and, if your stance would be held, you'll never know it. Thank you again for your note. With your continued assistance, perhaps we can prevent Geocachers from enjoying the balance of natural resources that Arizona has to offer. Please let me know if you have any further suggestions. Thank you. Sincerely, Bryan Roth Groundspeak Original Message Follows: ------------------------ From: xxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: [#634] Re: Request for removal from your website Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 23:02:10 EST Mr. Roth; Thank you for removing the Rock Art Center from your website. Your suggestion to remove the "offensive" photo and post guidelines for geocachers is not acceptable at this point. The photo, in fact, is beyond offensive. Also, you have ignored the issue that you did not request permission from the Center of Maricopa County Flood Control to place a "virtual cache" on your website. I also do not think that the cache on Adobe Dam has permission to be there. Your website encourages geocachers to hike the dam to find the cache. There are "No Trespassing" signs posted all over the dam. Trespassers could receive either a $1,000 fine or six months imprisonment. I have contacted Flood Control once again about that cache. Do not be surprised if it is removed. Geocachers must get permission from land managers before placing a cache if any kind. New rules are in place here in Arizona. I appreciate the removal of the Center from your website. It has attracted some visitors. However, we do not think your website is the kind of PR the Center is seeking. Sincerely, (name withheld) Deer Valley Rock Art Center From: xxxxxxxxx To: contact@Groundspeak.com Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 23:02:10 EST Local: Tues, Feb 18 2003 8:02 pm Subject: Re: [#634] Re: Request for removal from your website -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. Roth; Thank you for removing the Rock Art Center from your website. Your suggestion to remove the "offensive" photo and post guidelines for geocachers is not acceptable at this point. The photo, in fact, is beyond offensive. Also, you have ignored the issue that you did not request permission from the Center of Maricopa County Flood Control to place a "virtual cache" on your website. I also do not think that the cache on Adobe Dam has permission to be there. Your website encourages geocachers to hike the dam to find the cache. There are "No Trespassing" signs posted all over the dam. Trespassers could receive either a $1,000 fine or six months imprisonment. I have contacted Flood Control once again about that cache. Do not be surprised if it is removed. Geocachers must get permission from land managers before placing a cache if any kind. New rules are in place here in Arizona. I appreciate the removal of the Center from your website. It has attracted some visitors. However, we do not think your website is the kind of PR the Center is seeking. Sincerely, (name withheld) Deer Valley Rock Art Center From: "Cache Inquiries" To: xxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 22:06:11 -0800 Local: Mon, Feb 17 2003 10:06 pm Duration: 25:50 minutes Subject: [#634] Re: Request for removal from your website -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear xxxxxxxx, Your email was passed along to me for follow up. As requested, I will remove the offending virtual cache from our website. Before I do, I was hoping that you'd consider reading these 4 recent 'cache logs' written by geocachers: February 5 by Ranger Team "...Nice day to enjoy the rock center with the children. Thanks for bringing us here." January 5 by TeamBlunder "Was very interesting walking through and learning something about the Petroglyphs...thanks so much for bringing us here. Thanks for a fun cache I could do with my boys." January 4 by AZAppels "very nice location. after paying entry fee ($5.00, senior & students $3.00) the museum portion is very interesting. the 1/4 mile walk is truly a sign from the past. The ranger was great explaining what was seen." January 3 by WEFINDUM "Neat place to visit. We had no idea this was here and so close" My point is that it seems as though your are judging the environmentally friendly geocaching community by the actions portrayed in one photo of a young girl. Now, I don't think either of us would believe that this is the first or last time someone didn't exactly follow the rules, but to punish the rest of these paying families, senior citizens and individuals for this action would be unfair, to say the least. This virtual cache draws people to see something wonderful that they would not otherwise see. Surely there is a better way to address this issue. Personally, I'd hate to have Geocachers miss out on this collection. Anyway, a suggestion: What if we remove that specific photo from the site and include a note to geocachers who visit? The note can include rules, site regulations, etc. I am open to other suggestions. Alternatively, we can remove the site as requested. In the interim, I will temporarily disable this cache on the site and remove the offending photo. Please let me know your preference and feel free to call or write with any additional questions or concerns. Happy Geocaching! Sincerely, Bryan Roth Groundspeak, Inc. P: 206.302.7721 x103 F: 206.374.8161 Original Message Follows: ------------------------ From: xxxxxxx Subject: Request for removal from your website Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:42:46 -0500 Jeremy; I have emailed you about the virtual cache at the Deer Valley Rock Art Center. You have been quite condescending during our previous communications. Yes, I know what "virtual" is as well as a "cache" and "geocaching". Thank you for the lesson in vocabulary! You seemed to avoid the fact that no one asked permission to place this virtual cache on our property and on your website. The Center recently had visitors who learned about our site from your website. On your website there is a photo of a girl leaning on one of the petroglyphs. Visitors are told to not touch the glyphs. "Touch" includes leaning, sitting, and standing on the glyphs. Her arm touches the top of the glyph! This email is a request to remove the virtual cache from the Center, and to remove the Center entirely from your website. You did not seek permission about the virtual cache, and now this photo disturbs me greatly! Harkening back to an earlier email, many geocachers do not follow proper equitte at archaeological sites. This picture reinforces that! Please remove the Deer Valley Rock Art Center from your website. I hope this request will not turn into a legal matter. Sincerely, (name withheld) Deer Valley Rock Art Center
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