BuckeyeClan

Which is why they aren't called caches. They are Challenges. Really, I just don't get all the hand-wringing here. I'll agree that they haven't been implemented very well--better instructions *before* they went active would have been helpful, but there is still potential. They aren't even 24 hours old yet, why not wait a few weeks and see what shakes out? If you don't like the challenges, don't do them. Why is everybody so concerned with other peoples' find count? Do what's right for you, ignore everybody else. I doubt that I'll be rushing out to do any, but I can't imagine that my regular caching experience will be impacted greatly because of a few new links on the website and a few new stats on my profile. I've never found a benchmark, or a Wherigo, or a Waymark, or completed a challenge cache. I don't really care about any of those. Yet somehow I manage to enjoy caching despite knowing that these other entities exist. The mere fact that there were hundreds, if not thousands, of geocachers sitting in front of their computers today, ready to submit a challenge as soon as they went live, proves that there are more than a few cachers interested in the concept. Give it a chance to work, or else just ignore it completely. Don't try to scuttle it the first day. I just can't imagine anybody actually quitting geocaching because of this! Get a grip! Well, in case you haven't read the forums, I'll just let you know that the majority of people are "scuttling" I don't care about other's numbers, I don't care if people abuse this. What I think sucks is that this has nothing in common with geocaching. With no owners and no review process, there will be stupid and meaningless Challenges cluttering up the pile with a few well-thought Challenges. I would not mind them if they at least got you out of the house. But when I see pictures of people kissing frogs I have to ask myself how this has anything to do with geocaching. I read the forums quite a bit, I know very well what people are saying. If people don't like the challenges, then the best thing for them to do is simply not do them. No, it isn't geocaching. Some would also argue that events, earthcaches, virtuals, etc. aren't geocaching either. This is just supposed to be a fun, alternate way for people to share certain locations with others. It is purposely designed to NOT be geocaching. Groundspeak did a poor job explaining these things beforehand, and a lot of carp got listed in the first few hours. It appears that TPTB are archiving those listings, and leaving only true location-based challenges (other than their own worldwide challenges). I'm just saying that people are condemning the whole thing without really waiting to see how things might change. The good news is, since they aren't geocaches, they don't affect actual geocaching in any way--no proximity issues, no abandoned cache issues, no inactive owner issues, etc. You can completely ignore challenges, and it won't affect your game at all. The only thing affected is other people's find count--but that doesn't matter, right?

I suspect this would not be impossible. It would be interesting to see what Groundspeak would say if one stepped forward and made the offer!

I saw that one--it probably won't last long. The ones that Groundspeak puts out appear under the "Worldwide" tab. They are the only ones (for now) that can create the worldwide challenges.

No, I'd rather give them a chance first.

THAT part is NOT going to happen. I can promise you that much. There aren't enough volunteers in the world to take on the task of reviewing those and putting up the fights for those they don't feel are up to it. I didn't understand until recently that the biggest problem with the old virts had to do with disputes with reviewers, and I do not blame the reviewers one bit for not wanting to get entangled in that mess again! Just look at what we've got already, in less than one day. I have been told that if the old virtuals came back we would not have any reviewers left. I sure would not blame them. Earthcaches seem to work okay. I could easily imagine, say, History Virtuals that are reviewed by a historical society in much the same way that Earthcaches are reviewed by the GSA. Bringing back virtuals doesn't have to mean subjecting reviewers to the same nonsense they used to deal with. True. But then they wouldn't be the old virtuals, now would they? My gut is that it would be pretty close to what (many?) people are actually clamoring for. Virtuals with quality control - but without involving Groundspeak volunteer reviewers (who would rather shave with a cheese grater than get involved in "wow factor" arguments). Well then, first you have to find a historical society that is willing to take on the headache of defining and approving them. I know people want history caches, but that concept seems like a huge can of worms to me, especially when you get into worldwide history issues. Caches would have to be written carefully so as not to offend other nationalities. And what qualifies as history? Washington slept here? What about Elvis slept here? What about Elvis' manager slept here? No way is Groundspeak going to want to decide whether or not some old sign is "hisorical" or not. Whatever controversy exists within earthcaching, it would be many times worse trying to implement historycaching. So "challenges" is what we have to work with! First suggestion, break out "challenges completed" from your find count. Why that is so angst-inducing to so many people, I'm not quite sure, but that's an easy enough fix. Second suggestion, clear instructions (or maybe "expectations" is a better word) of what is a valid challenge, and what will happen if you submit a challenge that isn't valid. Right now it appears that TPTB are archiving invalid challenges--will that continue? What about a 24-hour review period to first determine if a challenge meets the location requirement? Not to review quality, but just to ensure people aren't submitting world-wide challenges as location-based challenges. Also explain what users are supposed to do if they come across a challenge that they don't think is valid. Flag it? Vote it down? I'm fuzzy on the "thumbs up/thumbs down" thing; is that just I like it/don't like it, or does that alert TPTB to invalid challenges? Third suggestion, a way to hide or remove logs that don't meet the challenge. Maybe users can thumbs up/thumbs down rate logs, and those with a low rating are hidden (but not deleted). That wouldn't remove the completed from cacher's stats, but people who are genuinely interested in a challenge and browsing the associated pictures wouldn't have to wade through pictures that don't actually fulfill the challenge. Last suggestion, we need a better way to search for challenges. That's something that I would assume is already planned, though I could be wrong about that! Being able to see them on a map would be a great start.

Yes I've seen two great challenges in the last 10 minutes. There is hope! http://www.geocachin...w.aspx?cx=CX2B1 Yes. And the write up for both of them was well done. Give a little history about the location (why would someone want to go there) then state the challenge explicitly. I wonder how long it will take before someone arm chair completes it. And so what if they do? The people who actually do the challenge can still go out and enjoy it. It would be nice to have a mechanism to hide or remove obvious armchair logs though. Actually, unless/until they change the search mechanism, it's kind of hard to find the good challenges, unless they are in your area. Right now people are just finding listings by monitoring the "recent activity" scroll. Once people aren't parked in front of their computers refreshing the screen every 2 minutes, they won't even notice a lot of the good ones that get listed. Right now the bad ones are so noticeable because people keep accepting and completing them right away. Assuming Groundspeak keeps archiving the inappropriate ones, the good ones aren't going to get as much attention because they won't be as easy to complete. So why is it easier to archive all these challenges than to review them before they get posted? That's where I think Groundspeak goofed in the implementation. More explanation and instruction *before* they went live. And "Kiss a frog" was a bad example to put out there right away. Simply making it known that listings that aren't location-based will be archived would probably have cut down on the stupid stuff people have been listing. Not the best start, but that doesn't mean it can't be fixed. Perhaps they underestimated just how many people would start listing stuff right away. I just don't think it's fair to judge challenges solely on the first 8 hours of existence.

Yes I've seen two great challenges in the last 10 minutes. There is hope! http://www.geocaching.com/challenges/view.aspx?cx=CX2B1 Yes. And the write up for both of them was well done. Give a little history about the location (why would someone want to go there) then state the challenge explicitly. I wonder how long it will take before someone arm chair completes it. And so what if they do? The people who actually do the challenge can still go out and enjoy it. It would be nice to have a mechanism to hide or remove obvious armchair logs though. Actually, unless/until they change the search mechanism, it's kind of hard to find the good challenges, unless they are in your area. Right now people are just finding listings by monitoring the "recent activity" scroll. Once people aren't parked in front of their computers refreshing the screen every 2 minutes, they won't even notice a lot of the good ones that get listed. Right now the bad ones are so noticeable because people keep accepting and completing them right away. Assuming Groundspeak keeps archiving the inappropriate ones, the good ones aren't going to get as much attention because they won't be as easy to complete.

Which is why they aren't called caches. They are Challenges. Really, I just don't get all the hand-wringing here. I'll agree that they haven't been implemented very well--better instructions *before* they went active would have been helpful, but there is still potential. They aren't even 24 hours old yet, why not wait a few weeks and see what shakes out? If you don't like the challenges, don't do them. Why is everybody so concerned with other peoples' find count? Do what's right for you, ignore everybody else. I doubt that I'll be rushing out to do any, but I can't imagine that my regular caching experience will be impacted greatly because of a few new links on the website and a few new stats on my profile. I've never found a benchmark, or a Wherigo, or a Waymark, or completed a challenge cache. I don't really care about any of those. Yet somehow I manage to enjoy caching despite knowing that these other entities exist. The mere fact that there were hundreds, if not thousands, of geocachers sitting in front of their computers today, ready to submit a challenge as soon as they went live, proves that there are more than a few cachers interested in the concept. Give it a chance to work, or else just ignore it completely. Don't try to scuttle it the first day. I just can't imagine anybody actually quitting geocaching because of this! Get a grip!

The Delorme PN-40 should also be in your price range. Here's some info that I posted on a different thread recently: I have a Delorme PN-40, and am happy with it. Delorme units have some limitations--detailed maps are only for North America, and harder to use with a mac computer, and they aren't compatible with some of the free maps out there that Garmin units can use. But if those limitations don't affect you, then Delorme units are a great everything included, bang-for-your-buck gpsr. If you want to enter a lot of text in the field, a touchscreen unit would be better, but the buttons on the PN units are easy to operate, and can be done right or left handed. It takes some time to just sit down and figure out what all the menu options are, but once you get a feel for everything, it's not difficult to use. I love the paperless feature--I personally wouldn't want to be without it. The TOPO software that comes with the PN-40/60 is software for the *computer*, not the gpsr. It's useful if you want to save and edit track files, or create a track on the computer and download to the gpsr. If you don't care about doing any of that, you won't even need to install it on your computer. Map sections can be loaded to the PN-40/60 directly from the included disks, and Delorme has a free download program called Cache Register that makes transferring PQ's and field notes really easy. I will say the PN-40 eats batteries for breakfast! We go caching infrequently, so I usually use single-use lithium. If you cache frequently, you'll want some good rechargeables. Delorme makes a rechargeable battery pack that you might want to look at; there is also an individual that makes rechargeable battery packs that get good reviews on the Delorme forums. You might also want to check out the Delorme forums for any specific questions. I've always had good luck getting answers there.

It comes with the latest version of the topo and road maps. If you want more up-to-date maps in a year or two, you have to buy the latest version of Topo. The $30 subscription is if you want satellite views, or some other more detailed maps? I'm a little fuzzy on that, because I've never used the subscription. With Garmin units, there are various sources of free maps. And in some areas, people make map files with trails and things, and then make them available online. Those kinds of maps won't be compatible with the PN-40. IIRC, the free maps available for Garmin units aren't routable, but if you buy the Garmin maps they are. The PN-40 maps are routable; I rarely use that, though. It works okay, but I wouldn't want to depend on it to get me through an urban area. with all the "free" maps out there, why would I get one of the more expensive Garmin units that come with topo maps preloaded, compared to the same model without maps? Am I missing something here ....? thanks, paul I don't have a Garmin, but my best guess(es) would be 1. quality, 2. convenience, and 3. the ability to auto-route. The free maps may vary in quality, depending on your area, so some places may not be that good. Some people are probably happy to pay for the Garmin maps for the convenience of having them already on the unit, or on a disk or memory card. It's just easier than having to search and download from the web. And finally, my understanding is that you can't auto-route using the free maps. If you want to select the cache, hit "go to", and have the gps beep at you when you need to turn, you need to buy Garmin's maps. If those don't apply to you, then save yourself some cash, and go with the free maps. If you aren't happy with them, you can always buy the Garmin maps later.

Yes, I have tried that three times, under no power lines or obstructions. I went to the compass and tried to see if the GPS was turned on, but no luck? Any possible other things I may be forgetting? Thanks ! *** update to that... I took it out once again, took out the mem card and batteries, and basically spoke to it, advising I would be sending it right back if it didn't start behaving right, and now FINALLY appears to semi work... Give it plenty of time to get a satellite lock the first time--say, 15 to 20 minutes. Once it finds all the satellites and knows where it is, it shouldn't take as long to get a lock next time. Although it can take a little while if you travel with it off, so that it isn't finding the satellites where it expects them to be, and has to start from scratch.

Have you taken it outside for a while with a clear view of the sky? The gpsr gets its location by receiving signals from the satellites, so the fewer trees, buildings, etc. that are around, the quicker it will find the signal. The time should set automatically when it gets a good lock on the satellites.

Yes, for some reason you have to be a premium member. It changed the last time they updated the forum software.

It comes with the latest version of the topo and road maps. If you want more up-to-date maps in a year or two, you have to buy the latest version of Topo. The $30 subscription is if you want satellite views, or some other more detailed maps? I'm a little fuzzy on that, because I've never used the subscription. With Garmin units, there are various sources of free maps. And in some areas, people make map files with trails and things, and then make them available online. Those kinds of maps won't be compatible with the PN-40. IIRC, the free maps available for Garmin units aren't routable, but if you buy the Garmin maps they are. The PN-40 maps are routable; I rarely use that, though. It works okay, but I wouldn't want to depend on it to get me through an urban area.

I've never used the dakota 10, so I can't really compare the 2. On the PN-40, the expansion slot allows you to add more memory for maps. The unit has a basemap installed, but it can't hold all the topo maps for all of the US. Having a memory card installed means that you can hold topo maps for a bigger area. Otherwise, if you are travelling or something, you just have to uninstall your local area and then install the area that you need. That would be a pain if it's something you have to do weekly, but if you don't travel out of state much it's not that big of a deal. For the magnetic compass--our first gps didn't have a magnetic compass, and I never thought it was a big deal. But some people love it. Maybe it has to do with if people use the map screen or compass screen when finding a cache? I always use the map screen, so I always found that just walking at a steady pace kept the arrow pointing where we needed to go. Maybe when people "follow the arrow" on the compass screen, the magnetic compass is more important.

I will say the PN-40 eats batteries for breakfast! We go caching infrequently, so I usually use single-use lithium. If you cache frequently, you'll want some good rechargeables. Delorme makes a rechargeable battery pack that you might want to look at; there is also an individual that makes rechargeable battery packs that get good reviews on the Delorme forums. You might also want to check out the Delorme forums here. It's a hard decision! I'm not sure what I would choose if I were in your shoes. I bought the PN-40 before the Dakota line existed, and I don't feel the need to change to something else, but the touchscreen sure would be tempting!

I have a Delorme PN-40, and am happy with it. Delorme units have some limitations--detailed maps are only for North America, and harder to use with a mac computer, and they aren't compatible with some of the free maps out there that Garmin units can use. But if those limitations don't affect you, then Delorme units are a great everything included, bang-for-your-buck gpsr. If you want to enter a lot of text in the field, a touchscreen unit would be better, but the buttons on the PN units are easy to operate, and can be done right or left handed. It takes some time to just sit down and figure out what all the menu options are, but once you get a feel for everything, it's not difficult to use. I love the paperless feature--I personally wouldn't want to be without it. The TOPO software that comes with the PN-40/60 is software for the *computer*, not the gpsr. It's useful if you want to save and edit track files, or create a track on the computer and download to the gpsr. If you don't care about doing any of that, you won't even need to install it on your computer. Map sections can be loaded to the PN-40/60 directly from the included disks, and Delorme has a free download program called Cache Register that makes transferring PQ's and field notes really easy.

That's why it's good to be proactive. The more suggestions and ideas we throw out, the better chance Groundspeak will come out with something we like. It's way easier to change things before they're implemented than after. It isn't possible to make any significant changes to challenges in a week prior to release. It is good to know what people's concerns may be so we can, say, address them in a FAQ. However, making suggestions on how things could work won't be helpful until people start using the new system. I think Avernar was referring to the existing challenge caches when he said that, not to the new Challenges. Avernar is hoping to have some input into how challenge caches are "fixed", if and when the rules for them are modified.

Log out of the forums and then log back in.

It's unlikely that caches with an educational or historical theme will get a new cache type unless a national or international organization comes forward to administrate them. The reason earthcaches exist is because the Geological Society of America writes the guidelines, and handles the reviews and publishing of those caches. The usual volunteer reviewers don't have anything to do with publishing earthcaches. Browse through the earthcaching forum sometime, and you'll see a lot of angst and disagreements about what can and should be published, what logging requirements can and should be allowed, etc. I don't think Groundspeak lackeys or the volunteer reviewers want to get into the business of making judgments about cache listings--is this historically significant enough? Is that a valid educational task to require? If there's something historical that you would like to highlight, place a traditional cache in the area, and do a nice write-up about it on the cache page. Some will skip over the lesson, but some people will surely appreciate the lesson and the effort that you put into it! You can't require tasks to log a traditional cache, but maybe you could figure out a way to incorporate something educational into a puzzle that people need to solve to get the coordinates, and make it a puzzle cache.

No, I don't think so, unless you buy a new gpsr that comes with a free trial for 30 days. I think you can purchase 3 months for $10 if you don't want to spring for the whole $30.

Apparently they just added Facebook integration to the website, which has been discussed a bit here. I would assume that the iphone app would work the same way once it gets added. I don't think anybody here knows for sure when it will be added. Groundspeak generally doesn't give exact dates when things will be added, so "coming soon" is probably the best answer you'll get!

Thanks. I tried to follow this thread for a while, but it got too frayed after a while. Also a bit confusing is that some stuff was discussed in "The Return of Virtuals" thread. I have a hard time remembering what was discussed where.

Why, I'll never know.

Well, we don't know for sure yet what the new challenges will be like. There's a chance that they're all gonna be location based, at least for the time being. The whole comparison with challenge caches was a bit of an unrelated side discussion. I don't think there was an official confirmation that the new challenges could be used for concepts similar to challenge caches. At least not yet, they might be in the future. Yes. Challenge caches are an unrelated discussion to the replacement for virtuals (or at least on the fringes). However, since people kept bringing it up, I addressed it as a problem. Well, to be honest, the confusion is very understandable when you consider that the concept of "Challenge cache" was already firmly established when Groundspeak decided to repurpose the term for this new concept instead of coming up with a unique name. Is the name "Challenge" already carved in stone? He addressed that earlier in the thread.