Jomarac5

Seneca, Can't say I'm surprised. You've just taken silly to an all new level. Time to grow up and drop this off topic stuff. *****

3. Should we mark these spots so that others in the future do not put caches there? *****

WHAT IS IT... WITH YOU PEOPLE? THIS TOPIC... IS NOT ABOUT GAY BASHING... OR GAY LIFESTYLES... OR ANY OTHER... SOCIAL MATTER. IT IS ABOUT... SAFETY... WHILE CACHING. THAT'S IT. NOTHING MORE. TIME TO GROW UP AND DROP THIS OFF TOPIC STUFF... (You're looking really really silly). ***** [This message was edited by Jomarac5 on June 04, 2003 at 05:26 PM.]

quote: FlashStash wrote:I'm a gay man, and I don't condone this behavior at all. I know MANY gay men, and know none who participate in any sort of activity like this. You'll find it's mainly closeted men, who still have families, who do this. They feel there's no other way to do this and this is their outlet. This does not justify their behavior, just trying to explain it. There are many instances of straight anonymous sex like this, it's just not happening in public. I'm glad that you posted here and expressed your views. I too, know a few gay men and have shared very good long-term friendships with a couple of them. I spoke with one of them this morning about this topic and he pretty much echoed your comments and expressed that he also does not know of any gay men who participate in this activity, nor does he condone it. He said that he is very aware of it. He also shared with me, your comment that most of those that do participate in these anonymous activities, from what he has been led to believe, are mostly closeted family types. It is very unfortunate that this discussion has strayed so far, my initial post was intended to bring awareness to a problem that just happened to unfortunately involve gay men -- and quite honestly, it would not have been the same perspective to me if it were a hetrosexual couple -- my apologies if this offends you in any way. I do believe that most gay men do not condone this behaviour. But the fact is, it was two men that I encountered and I believe this fact does make a difference as this is a behaviour that quite frankly, does not happen in the same manner with most hetrosexuals (referring to the act being frequently performed in a known public place). My own personal feelings about homosexuality aside, I think that Georges comments comparing quitting smoking to quitting being gay are not relevant here or any other place. I am not gay, and as such do have a difficult time understanding it, but I do appreciate that others have had to deal with life-long struggles regarding their own identities and decisions. I cannot however, and probably never will, fully understand these struggles. If this makes me appear 'homophobic', then so be it. Having said all this, and I know that this is by now beginning to sound like a broken record as I have reiterated this on nearly every one of my posts to this thread -- this discussion is not about homosexuality or gay bashing. It is about inappropriate behaviour in a public place where myself and others take our children. We all have differing views on some of our life 'experiences' but as Hydee pointed out, this is not the forum to be discussing them. There is a legitimate problem that has been presented here and I find it disheartening that this discussion has gone so far off topic. Perhaps now, this topic can continue on without turning into something that it is not. Thanks for sharing your insights in this discussion FlashStash, it's much appreciated. Since the first two of my questions have basically been answered, I pose the third question once more -- do we as cachers, need to mark or identify these known locations to avoid placing caches there in the future? *****

quote: teefal wrote:Yes, the homophobia's pretty disturbing in this topic Something is pretty disturbing in this topic, but it's not homophobia. Could it be the perverted behaviour of those looking to have anonymous sex in a public location? And the disease infested garbage that they leave there? Hmmm... yup, that's it. *****

LUNAPIE, from my SINGLE experience, I observed that there were numerous condoms and wrappers littering the area. After the incident and when I returned to my car, I noticed several men milling about the parking area. It doesn't take a much to put 2 and 2 together to determine what was going on in the area. Obviously, my subsequent visit and conversations with the police confirmed that my determination of the area was absolutely correct. quote: This begs the question of why you went and chanced witnessing an “encounter” that threatened your “well-being” (a later post).Hmmm... I was already in the area before I could determine what was going on there. I did not say that my 'well-being" was threatened. quote:I don’t know how busy the police are in the “vicinity of Vancouver, BC, Canada”, but I imagine that these days it is difficult for all but the sleepiest towns to dedicate sex police to sting operations that extend to 100 meters into the brush (as a later post eluded that the offending behavior was witnessed) for non-violent crimes yet to be committed anymore than they can post a patrol car in every neighborhood to make sure no one’s house gets broken into while they are away. I wouldn’t accuse the police of having a “lackadaisical attitude” toward breaking and entry or burglary because if it.The impression that I got from the police is that they didn't care. I did acknowledge that it would be a difficult problem for the police to remedy. My point however, was that the police barely acknowledged my complaint -- and instead treated me as though it was an inconvenience to them that I was reporting it -- that seems to me to be a lackadaisical attitude towards this problem. quote: During the time it took you to consult with three police organizations, the parks board, and post diatribes to this forum every one to five hours for the last two days, I’ll bet you could have manned a table at the rest stop informing visitors of your “social viewpoint” and experience at that location.Diatribes is your word, I'd hardly call it that. I did report the incident to the police but if you reread my post, I did not have need to contact the parks board. With regard to the frequency of my following this thread, I am fortunate with my job that I am able to often follow threads and occasionally respond to posts. I do not have the ability to 'man a table' and it is a bit farsighted of you to suggest this without knowing all of the facts. quote: ranting about your “opinions” about “perverts” in geocaching cyberspace has done little to change your situation.Hardly a rant. On numerous occasions during this thread I indicated that this topic was not about gay bashing but certain individuals insisted on calling it that. I was merely trying to correct these misconceptions. And as you can see, there is still one individual who just can't let this go. Now there's a guy who is misguided and off topic. For what it is worth, the situation has changed. The result of this thread is that the people in this area now are aware of this rest stop and can avoid it until the problem is corrected. Another positive result is that from this discussion it is quite possible that cachers in other areas might now recognize potentially unfavorable areas near them. There is much about this thread that you obviously didn't completely digest, but thanks for your thoughts just the same. *****

I think that Renagade Knight comes very close to the very essence of what this topic is about -- as cachers we do tend to visit out of the way places and as such we find many things that others do not. When I brought this topic up, it wasn't to start a debate about gay rights or even about gay behaviour. I was bringing attention to the fact that there are areas that are inappropriate for placing caches. I asked 3 relevant questions and a few people incorrectly took them to be an attempt to bash gay lifestyles. Fortunately for me, I did not have my children with me, and frankly, the experience was nothing more than an example of pathetic human behaviour. But it could have had serious implications if a child had witnessed it. Others who had been to the location a bit earlier in the day did have children with them and stumbled across used condoms and wrappers and a quantity of pornography in a stump. Good for them for taking the initiative to remove the pornography. Fortunately for them, they didn't witness the type of display that I did. I did contact the police about this incident. In fact, I spoke to 3 separate police departments and they were all aware of the problem but none seemed to be very concerned about it. I will be looking into this further and contacting my local member of parliament. What it all comes down to is that a lesson should be learned here -- check out the area as best you can before placing a cache there. Obviously, it is sometimes difficult to determine what kind of activity takes place in every location but used condoms, condom wrappers, syringes and needles, are all good indicators that the area may not be suitable for a family oriented activity such as caching. *****

quote: Hydee wrote:As for the rest of the things being discussed here, they are off topic. What does any of it have to do with Geocaching? Please bring this thread back on topic. I agree Hydee. Some people are pretty bent on turning this discussion into something that it is not. Thank you. *****

quote: Khlash wrote:I can't beleive that people here are going to honestly try to say theres no difference between a straight couple getting it on in the bushes and two men having an*l sex in the bushes. You've got to be joking. The latter is completely worse than the former and would probably mentally damage some young kid who stumpled into view. Im sorry but this country is getting just a bit too politically correct. I agree with all of what you say. Even if some cowardly people would label me for it. ***** [This message was edited by Jomarac5 on June 03, 2003 at 07:57 PM.]

Seneca, grow up. What is your problem? It does not have anything to do with gay bashing. It has to do with perversion in a public place. Nowhere in my posts do I say that I have a problem or prejudice about gays. It happens that I do have a problem with two guys in the bushes engaging in a sexual act in a public place who are obviously gay. But they are perverts first. And who are you to tell me how I feel or care about anything? You know nothing about me and are a fool for thinking that you do. You should learn to keep your unsubstantiated claims to yourself. One thing is for sure, I certainly am caring a lot less about what you have to say. *****

Team 360, thank you for supporting me, but I didn't make that statement about 'a societal viewpoint' in an effort to packpedal -- it was in response to a previous post by Seneca that incorrectly accused me of being afraid when I encountered the two sickos. As I mentioned before, we have become a society that is far too tolerant of behaviour that weakens the fabric of civilized society. It's time that as a society we let these degenerates (including the druggies, violent gangs, prosutitutes and other undesirables that eroyd mentioned) know that we're not going to tolerate this behaviour anymore. And yes, we do need to express our opinions without fear of being labeled one way or another. My honest remarks and straightforward candor have often had others attaching labels to me -- and really, much like yourself, I don't care what they think -- these are my opinions and I am entitled to them.

quote: Divine wrote:If it's illegal there, probably yes. Personally, I don't care, and I don't consider that disgusting, ghastly nor frightening. I also don't think those people are sickos. Yes, it is illegal here to perform sexual acts in a public place. Unfortunately, the police can do nothing about it unless they catch these people engaged in the act. I think you are definitely wrong about these people not being sicko's. What kind of rational thinking person would even consider milling around a public area, seeking an anonymous sexual encounter, only 100 meters from an area where innocent children are? And that's what makes it sick -- having no regard for the well-being of innocent people. Sorry, but there's just nothing correct about this sort of behaviour and there is nothing that you can say to convince me otherwise. It's sick. *****

quote: flask wrote:then why is the word frightening in the title of the topic? If you had read my previous post in it's entirety you would see that I said "At no time did I fear for my safety. And at no time did I feel that was in danger or that my morals were in question or threatened. Although I did find the actions frightening from a societal viewpoint." The key phrase here being "from a societal viewpoint". *****

quote: canadazuuk wrote:I'm still under the impression I did the best possible thing by removing the cache, and thus the possibility of future incidents for geocachers and this site, but I'm not 100% sure it was the 'right' thing after reading some of the ideas presented. I think you did do the best thing Zuuk. And after my conversations with 3 police departments today, it only confirms it. There is a well known problem at that area and it would be irresponsible to leave a cache there as the possibility of someone else having a similar encounter to what I experienced is fairly high in my estimation. BTW: You mentioned in an earlier post that I was night caching -- this was not entirely so -- I was in the area at dusk, approximately 8:30PM to 9:00PM -- it was still daylight and I didn't have or need a flashlight. *****

quote: bthomas wrote:Police already know of these locations; enforcement is likely a very low priority. Unfortunately, this seems to be true. I was just a bit surprised to see something like this so close to my home -- naievety or whatever, I never would have thought this a problem in rural areas. I'm wondering if the reason the police don't do anything about it is that if they do, they know the problem will only move to a new location -- I can see it being a difficult problem to completely eliminate. quote: Frankly, geo-logs should warn others of those misadventures, and the sites possibly abandoned for family geocaching. I agree. But an area such as this one being discussed here, and having been identified, is definitely not an appropriate location for a cache as it is obviously well know to authorities. And now to us. Thanks for your input. *****

quote: Seneca wrote:I would certainly complain about that! If the authorities are going to turn a blind eye to people making out at a public rest area, they should at least be giving equal rights to us heteros! You need to drop this homosexual/hetrosexual thing. It's not the issue here. I mentioned this aspect of it only because she wouldn't acknowledge that there is a crime being committed. *****

quote: Seneca wrote:I certainly do not defend the type of behaviour that is being described... Point taken. My apologies for the misunderstanding. Continuing on... I just returned from visiting the Langley RCMP Community Police office and was told that they are very much aware of the problem. The officer that I spoke with told me that it was the responsibility of the Highway Patrol and that I should take the matter up with them. As I was leaving, the officer said to me "it's just part of our west coast life style". I was shocked at his reply and told him so. It certainly isn't part of MY west coast lifestyle. Next call was to the RCMP Highway Patrol. Much of the same -- they know that this is happening but it's not their problem -- I need to contact the Abbotsford Police as it is in their jurisdiction. A call to the Abbotsford City Police confirmed that they are also aware of the problem. They then tried to pass me on to the parks board. I said that I didn't see where the parks board could do anything about it. I explained that this is a police problem and that there must be laws being broken here. She hummed and hawed about this and when I asked her if a man and a woman were having sex in a public place, would they be breaking any laws, she then agreed that it is a police matter. She also acknowledged that these areas are known to produce more serious crimes and people are less likely to report crimes in these types of areas because they don't want to admit being there. She continued to say that the police do patrol the area but they obviously can't be there 24 hours a day. I agreed with this and asked what else can be done -- it is a public place where visitors to our area stop for relaxation -- is this what we want visitors to be witnessing as they pass through our community? The answer she gave me was that the best thing to do is to inform others about this incident. I told her that I would do that and while doing so, would also mention that the police know about the problem but have a very lackadaisical attitude about it. She didn't seem to like that very much. Overall, I'm appalled at the attitude of the police. This is a pathetic problem and from what I experienced today, the police are doing next to nothing to remedy it. This is indeed a serious problem and I'm not finished with it yet. There are other avenues that can be persued. In the meanwhile, it is my opinion that these areas should be 'marked' and recognized as potentially unsafe areas by approvers. *****

quote: georgeanmary wrote: It it ghastly and freightening. Crusing spots are ghastly and freightening, gay men gather to meet other gay men for annoymous sex. quote: bigredmed wrote: We had a park in south Omaha that was overrun like that.... Thank you to georgeandmary and bigredmed for your insightful comments. Obviously I am not the only one who recognizes this situation for what it is. quote: Seneca wrote:Jomarac5, does this mean that I too am now off the "invitee list" of your proposed Geocaching Event Seneca: you need to go and reread that other thread about inviting others to an event -- I never said that I had an event planned, but yes, you would certainly be welcomed if I were to host one. *****

quote: Seneca wrote:I accept that. But in order to make complete sense of your comments and concerns regarding the issue you have raised, it is important (and fair) to try to understand your prejudices. Bull. My prejeducies and opinions have nothing to with what I witnessed, only with the way that I perceived them. And that is not the issue here. quote:In my opinion, probing and poking at participants prejudices is valid forum discussion. (I do admit though that it really pushes buttons sometimes, as I apparently have). It has however resulted in you being somewhat more candid in your last post. Pushed my buttons? I don't think so. It seems that you are looking only to engage in a confrontational argument instead of sticking to the 3 questions at hand and having a rational conversation about those points. quote: Seneca wrote:There have been past forum threads about geocachers coming across heterosexuals "making out" - the general tenor of those threads has been of titilating humor and uncomfortable embarrassment - not fear and revulsion. You we're obviously very afraid of and completely revulsed by what you saw. Maybe "homophobic" was not the perfect word to use, but it somehow just seemed appropriate. Afraid? I wasn't afraid. Far from it. At no time did I fear for my safety. And at no time did I feel that was in danger or that my morals were in question or threatened. Although I did find the actions frightening from a societal viewpoint. What I also find frightening is that people like yourself defend this type of behaviour. The repulsive part of this incident is that this is obviously a 'hang out' for this behaviour. The point you are missing here is that this area is obviously not an area where this happens as a sometimes chance encounter. There were condoms and condom wrappers all over the place indicating that this area is used on a regular basis for this activity. There were at least 4 men that I saw milling around the parking lot as I left (apparently looking to 'score' -- although I have no way to substantiate this, it does seem reasonable considering what I witnessed). Why are you so bent on making this a gay bashing issue? Seems like you are just trying to stir things up for some convoluted reason. As I've explained in my previous thread, the issues of this discussion are the 3 questions that I posed in my first thread. If you come back again to question my values and morals I will ignore your posts, but I will gladly engage in a discussion with you about the three questions. *****

quote: Seneca wrote:You may not be guilty of “Gay Bashing”, but from your first two posts on this thread it certainly seems to me that your attitude towards the incident would have been significantly different if it were a man and woman that you came across in the “throws of passion”. I doubt that you would have described their albeit inappropriate behavior as “disgusting, ghastly and frightening” You make it clear that it would not have bothered you as much if it were “Adam and Eve” having a personal moment. Made it clear that it bothered me? I guess so. I made it clear that it was inapporopriate for that sort of behaviour in a public place. quote: If it were Adam and Eve, instead of Adam and Steve, I really don’t think you would have declared “I think I would have rather found a dead body.” (By the way, I found that statement quite disturbing) If you found that disturbing then by the same token you need to accept that I find two guys engaging in anal sex in a public place disturbing. quote: Making out in a public place, particularly one that is accessible to children is not appropriate civil behavior and I concur with your concern. However, I believe that your description of the event (the only real specifics you gave were that the persons were of the same gender), and your reaction to it, was strongly influenced by the fact that you are homophobic. Homophobic? -- call it what you like. I get fed up with statements like this. Who are you to tell me or to label me for thinking a certain way? Get real man. We've become a society that is becoming tolerant of everything because a few people start making labels for those who don't agree with their intrusive and bothersome behaviour. That's crap. Society is becoming far too tolerant of these sorts of things. There has to come a time when we say "enough is enough" and why should I be made to feel that my opinions are wrong because you and a few others say so? The issue here is that the location is used for sex. And there are those with children (and I'm sure that there are many without children) that don't condone such public displays. And yes, it would make a difference to me if it was hetrosexual activities going on here -- but I still wouldn't think that it was right. It's a public place and therefore it is wrong. That it was two men, does make it a more repulsive display in my books. quote: However, on a higher intellectual level, taking into account today’s realities, I have come to believe that such prejudice is not a good thing, and I need to deal with that. I cannot deal with my prejudices until I recognize and acknowledge them. I suggest you consider doing the same. Just because you've been sucked into believing all that crap doesn't mean that others should. If you can't deal with your prejudices honestly then that's your problem. I'm fine with mine and I don't need you telling me otherwise. As I've mentioned, we have become far too tolerant of this type of behaviour. Man or woman, it's wrong in a public place -- especially one that is only 100 meters from a rest area parking lot. Let me remind you that the issue here is not about gay bashing -- you've turned it into that. The issues in this discussion are the three questions that I presented in my first post. *****

quote: canadazuuk wrote:My $0.02 is that we need to be responsible for our areas, and if a cachers know something another cacher may not, bring it to their attention in private e-mail and hopefully people do the right thing. In this instance, it appears to have worked. I agree with this wholeheartedly. Thank you Zuuk for taking such quick action. quote: Gwho wrote:Good idea except for three problems: how do you "mark" them? A forum thread will eventualyl get pushed down out of site. two: things may change and remain changed. How would you unmark it? three: I've seen this type of thread before & (sadly) it usually degenerates into gay-bashing which isn't the point. Going so far as to "mark" it would likely draw out both sides in that "discussion" and it likely wouldn't be pretty. This has nothing to do with gay bashing. It's got to do with exposing cachers and their kids to something that quite frankly shouldn't be happening in a public place. I have a 6 year old, a 9 year old, and an 11 year old -- sometimes they come night caching with me -- I certainly don't want them to be exposed to this sort of lewd behaviour. The question needs to be asked; Would you want your own children to be exposed to this? I think we can mark these known locations. Perhaps local approvers can take note of the locations and flag them for the future. If a cache is placed at that location maybe they could contact the cache placer and advise them that the area has been know in the past for being used for lurid practices. Perhaps the cache placer could take another look -- maybe the area has been cleaned up, maybe not. Either way, it is the responsible thing to do. *****

quote: MaxEntropy wrote:Finding amourous couples isn't that bad, it could be worse... Well they weren't dead bodies but they were of the same gender -- and in the throws of passion (if that's what you'd call it). I think I would have rather found a dead body. *****

Recently in our area, we had a cache that was placed in an area that is frequented by, um, well, let's say, er, it wasn't Adam and Eve sharing a private personal moment, if you know what I mean. I have read a couple threads in the past about these so called 'pick up' spots but yesterday I had the foul experience of personally interupting and witnessing one of these encounters -- needless to say, I was very thankful that I didn't have any of my kids with me. I contacted the cache owner and he immediately archived the cache and apologized for the ordeal. It certainly wasn't the fault of the cache owner -- I know this fellow and am 100% convinced that he wouldn't put a cache in such a spot if he knew that this sort of thing was going on there. My questions are: 1. Have you run into anything like this, or an area where it is obviously a sicko hangout? 2. Do you think the local authorities should be notified? 3. Should we mark these spots so that others in the future do not put caches there? *****

We've got one in our area as well. It's called Redwood Reading Room This reminds me that we have been talking about getting out our library cards and visiting this one again to check out some new books. Book caches are great! *****

Mopar, I would be inclined to agree a bit with rabbitsong's sentiment, however, in light of the West Nile Virus threat I don't think I'd pass on DEET for our kids. We've had our kids in the wilderness since before they could each walk and we've always made an effort to protect them from bugs. It is possible to offer additional protection for your kids during the times of day when mosquitos are most active. In our area, the most active times are in the early morning and late afternoon/early evening. For the most part when wilderness camping with the kids during their first year, they would spend most of the day in the tent so they were safely tucked away from bugs. When we went for short hikes we used a child carrier with a screen enclosure. For the next year, they also spent most of the day in the tent happlily looking through the mesh door and roof panels. For the first two years of their lives we never used DEET on them. As the kids got older we'd always plan for the them to play games in the tent in the late afternoon -- since this was the only time that the kids were allowed in the tent during the day it was a novelty, and they looked forward to it. Dinner would be a bit later after the bugs left. No big problem -- and nothing regimented about it. I don't remember seeing too many mosquito bites on our kids when they were really young. Now that the kids are older they don't tend to go in the tent much during the day and we use 10 percent or less DEET on them -- and we apply it for them. This way it keeps it off of their hands and face. And we thoroughly wash our hands after applying it -- don't let your kids apply it themselves because you know they won't wash their hands properly. And none of us are bothered much by mosquitos. We're not exactly living in a bubble, but we've managed over the years to minimize our kid's exposure to mosquitos (and DEET). If anyone is fretting over using DEET (for you or your kids), take a look at these statistics at the CDC site -- this should convince you that you need to take precautions to protect yourselves and your families. *****