Brik

Just FYI about the partial collapse. There is a road above with a posted weight limit. Above the collapsed section there seems to be a large boulder/ledge/stone slab or something that is holding up the road. The collapsed section is about 15 feet across and that stone ledge is much wider than that section. Elsewhere in the tunnel are various bricks that have fallen but no other large collapsed sections except what is below the road. I am by no means suggesting the tunnel is safe, not am I saying its unsafe. Everyone needs to assess the situation and risk and move forward only if they feel comfortable and are willing to assume the risks. I ride a motorcycle - In the MSF classes they discuss the concept of assumed risk (as has been alluded to by previous posters). I was reading a bit of philosophical ideas about risk and learned that there are different attitudes towards risk. 1) Avoid all risk and work to eliminate all risk from ones (or others) life(s) - These types would like to ban any GC that might assume some risk for the seeker. 2) Hyperreflective self-disciplinary - This involves understanding risk and taking all possible precautions when entering a potentially risky situation. - These types would not enter the tunnel or if they did would only do so after an engineering cert or repairs were made. They might find a different path to the cache that didnt involve entering the tunnel. 3) Risk Valorization - This is accepting risk in ones life is unavoidable and can be embraced as a way of "invigorating the soul". This mind set doesn't eschew safety yet also doesn't avoid it either. -These types would assess the situation and rationalize that the tunnel has stood, 99% intact for over 100 years, and would proceed. They might bring a flashlight. 4) Flaunting risk - Those that shun all regard for safety. - These types wouldn't give a second thought about going into a tunnel like this and might even be poking loose bricks with a stick. Its even sort of like the process of baby-proofing ones home. Some people would never have a coffee table because a small child could fall and bump their head on the corner of it, some people buy padding for those corners. Some people assume the risk on behalf of their children and figure live and learn. Some never even consider it a risk to have a coffee table in a room where a young child is learning to walk. Some people might want to regulate the populace to ban coffee tables from the homes of young children. Anyway - I guess I'm rambling. Be safe out there. Don't go into the tunnel or you will die.

mwuahahhahahha Yeah, it IS kinda creepy but its as safe an area as any.

I say go for it!

No, but I'm beginning to consider it spam. How many threads are you going to post this thing in? ha! No more I promise. I guess I was a bit over enthusiastic.

Would anyone consider this video a spoiler???

Thought I would share this with y'all. A video taken during my first cache placement. No spoilers it just relates the experience finding the general area before placing a cache.

here is a video of us making the hide! No spoilers

Cache approved. Here is the listing http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GC35J5P happy caching!

Okay, the cache went in today and is awaiting approval. It was actually my first official visit to the tunnel entrance because my previous attempt was aborted due to heavy underbrush and improper footware. Yes, trash out. The old rail bed is in a ravine about 40' below the road above. The trash came from the road, it couldn't have been carried in. It took me a bit over an hour to actually find the tunnel entrance, 20 mins to walk out to where I parked. I put in parking coordinates, from there it should be easy enough. I also shot some video (no spoilers) and may post that as well. it really is a neat spot.

Okay, I think I'm going to just put things in the description like "remember to stay off private property" "you do not need to enter the cemetery to access the cache" "come from the south" or, I could be more clever and say "no need to visit the dead" meaning don't go through cemetery not sure yet. The official trail is several years away. Here are some more details See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenixville_Tunnel tunnel is partially collapsed. (that's why I was thinking of a hide at the entrance) I still haven't made it all the way to the tunnel! Its sooo overgrown along the tracks, there is no trail, and access from near the tunnel is impossible due to very steep walls on both sides of the tracks. Thanks all for the input!

hey all, I think I have an interesting place for a cache but I want to make sure I do it right. Description of the area. This cache would be along a potential future county trail system. The county currently allows caches in their parks and along trails, they actually publish info on the county website about caching. The stretch in question is not currently in the county trails system. Its an abandoned rail line and proposed location of a current trail extension. I'm not concerned about getting permission for the location per-se. My questions Are caches approved without explicit documentation of approval? (I have never placed one before) The cache location in surrounded by private land except for two, less than obvious, approaches (along the former rail line). Would a cache that requires a specific route to find be okay? Would I document that in the description or hints? How about "underground" caches? The abandoned rail goes through a tunnel, I would like to place the cache in the tunnel or at the entrance to the tunnel. if I place it in the tunnel, in the middle, the GPS coordinates would be in the middle of the road above and about a mile drive from where you would need to enter the rail bed to get to the cache. Its impossible to get to the rail bed from the road above the tunnel due to undergrowth and steep grades. Thoughts on this potential cache?

I have a Dog Training system with an electronic dog collar, for my dog, and a hand held remote. I have the dog trained so when I press a button on the remote it vibrates her collar and she comes back to me. The remote uses a magnet to turn on and off the collar when you line up dots on each. Advantage collar, no external switch contacts make it waterproof, disadvantage compass!

I use my Garmin 60csx for auto nav. It does not talk to you but works fine and is great for GC. Seems if you GPSr is good for caching it, at most, is an OK, car nav. Your car oriented GPSr is at best a sucky caching device. So, look at GPSrs that are good for caching and then see if you can add auto nav capabilities.

This is all very interesting about people not ever being allergic then starting later in life. For me its just the opposite. As a kid and teen I was highly allergic. Now, pushing 40 it barely affects me. Maybe one little blister here or there but thats it. I think I have built a resistance to it! Not yet. I've known several people who swam through the stuff for years, then suddenly developed an allergy to it. Raises hand. Never had a case until I was 35...since then each case has gotten worse. Yep, same here, pulled it up by hand as a kid, so I never worried about really looking for it in the woods...around 32, I carried some wood with PI or something similar on, and had "night of the living dead" arms for quite a while....I'm VERY careful now!

OK, I know how to follow a road or go line of sight. Is there anyway to tell the 60CSX to follow a trail. I have topo maps (United States TOPO, now discontinued) which show, for example the Appalachian trail. Is there a way to navigate from one point on the trail to another? Sorry if its the wrong forum. Thanks

I swung by Circuit City and looked at the Mio 220. Someone else was playing with the Nuvi and I didn't have time to play with it. I thought the screen on the Mio looked a little dull and the user interface didn't seem too intuitive. Lots of people played with it and lots of various settings and configs were touched I'm sure. I did see coordinate entry, restaurants, etc. Screen was sort of small but hey, price? $200 additional $30 off online! 169, not too shabby. The nuvi 200 looked cool from what I could tell over the shoulder of the guy checking it out. Less clutter on the screen. I think I'll do this as my Christmas gift for my wife. I'll bet prices come down even more!

What GPS receiver do I need? Nah, I wont do that to anyone. I am looking for an in car only. I use a 60Csx for field use. Primarily for my wife and for road trips. My requirements -Under $200, cheaper the better -voice prompt but voicing street names not required -Good db of stuff like stores, restaurants, etc. -Prefer new, not used, will consider mfg referb. -easy to use for non-techie -Does not require to ever hook it up to a PC if I don't want to (All US, Canada maybe, preloaded) -KISS -Plug and go appliance -fastest and shortest options -avoid tolls options -can accept a lat/lon via the UI I hope my 60Csx has not spoiled me. I use it for road nav. I want something that will be as good as the 60Csx for road nav. I'm thinking the Mio 220, TomTom or a Nuvi something? Is there a dedicated car GPSr, Garmin, preloaded North America for under $200? What do you all think.

Here is a website outlining what is required for a citizen to receive a concealed carry permit http://cbi.state.co.us/ccw/Statutes/18-12-203.asp The full law is here http://cbi.state.co.us/ccw/relatedstats.asp I would surmise that a surprising number of people are carrying concealed right now around you. The parking lot nearest to where you are sitting right now contains many cars with handguns, rifles or shotguns. These all owned and secured by law abiding citizens. Many have contended that the VA tech massacre (Perpetrated by someone who did NOT have a permit) could have been minimized if VA did not have rules that prohibited possession of a firearm on the campus. You see, the point is, gun laws only hinder the rights of law abiding citizens, criminals will ignore all the laws. So - GO CACHING - You live in a state that allows concealed carry. You are safer knowing that many law abiding citizens are in positions of strength when it comes to protection from the criminals.

Not sure about magnetic versus true north. I read somewhere that magnetic north will change over time. The map says nothing about magnetic versus true north like a topo map may have, as I recall from getting my orienteering merit badge. No reference to NAD'83. It does reference a deed book and page. The North designation has written next to it "Deed book 19, volume H, Page 592" The lines drawn from the corners are labeled like this "N 78deg26'09" W" and "526.39' " Fortunately we are only dealing with straight lines! My surveyor had to go back to deeds from the 1800s. Descriptions included things like chains, perches, rods. Landmarks were things like piles of stones and carriage ways and from the corner of farmer Jone's field, etc. Here is one part of one deed (5 deeds make up property boundary) I'm sure those were magnetic north descriptions. I am sure the surveyor has standardized all the descriptions to a common format, either true north or some magnetic north defined in the deed book referenced next to the north symbol. Is that how that works?

Garsh! GCing is the CHEAPEST of my hobbies! Shooting sports, expensive Woodworking, expensive Home-ownership (Is that a hobby ), ex-pensive I like to cache because it costs me nothing since I already had a GPSr I bought for something else and I already had a car and boots. All I need to spend is on gas maybe a snack on the way home. Its really really nice to have a hobby that doesn't keep on costing!

No worries with the neighbors - All lines are deep in the woods, almost all are commercial or farming. One is soon to be commercial with current land leased to a farmer. Only residential adjoiner our line is probably 1000' from the part of his property he uses. Almost all of the chain saw work is cutting blow downs, dead trees or small stuff (under 6") that the brush hog wont deal with. If its much bigger we are leaving it, for now, until we fully establish the line of sight between the corners. Once underbrush and small stuff is cleared we are now considering clearing the line 8' to 10' wide for tractor/truck access to allow for easier maintenence. At that stage, if we ever do that, we will make sure nothing big is removed from abutters.

Thanks all for the replies!! I am flagging the line as I go before I start brush hogging. I got over 1000' cleared this past weekend. I was using a walk behind billygoat Outback brush hog, chainsaw, pole saw, hand and a hand held brush cutter. Not sure I understand that technique. Sounds like a lot of work. Ah, the rail bed! It was somewhat a point of contention a while back. The official survey has our property line going to the MIDDLE of the rail bed. The tracks have been abandoned for, I'm guessing, 50+ years. Apparently we (the campground) granted an easement to the RR at some point but retained ownership of the land. About 30 years ago someone went through town selling the Penn Central 'property' to adjacent land owners. The deeds were fraudulent. We declined to buy our own property, our neighbor bought his side and our side of the line! Court ruling nullified the 'sale'. BUT, the guy who thought he bought the RR bed then removed the old RR bridge which was technically 25% ours. The RR bed of the bridge also had a Coast Guard benchmark dated 1942 in it! Township is making him replace the bridge, no word on the benchmark. See this post where I discussed the marker last December. http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...=150086&hl= I have thought of a cache on the property. The property is owned by an association of shareholders and run by a board. I felt out a few board members and they are not keen on a cache on the property for various reasons. In hearing their reasoning I now tend to agree. Hmm, I never was very good at math. The biggest issue I face is with the VERY thick underbrush making impossible to even measure 10' in some areas w/o a fair amount of brush cutting. Laser wouldn't work w/o line of sight which I don't have (when I start). I'm marking first with flagging tape. And yes, the best way I have found is using the compass and pointing to a recognizable tree and then flagging points between and repeating. This gets me close. Close enough. Oh, and it took a lot longer due to the heavy underbrush. And using the GPS to check which side of the line I may be on, etc. I was also re-recording the corner locations. What drove me batty was when I would get to a corner that I waypointed before and now my GPSr says I'm some distance away. OK, I can handle that, its a different day, etc. What was really really making me batty was when I would average the corner waypoint over several minutes and then create a route between that waypoint and the next corner. Immediately the GPSr would say I was off course by as much as 12 or 15 feet! Argh. For those looking at the map in my original post, 11-24 is cleared, 10-9-8-7-20-6 is cleared, 9-field is cleared and two bridges installed, 6-5-4 is passable and flagged, 24-10 and 11-13 is not flagged, nor passable. Thanks again for all your replies.

Not an issue for us. No one cares in this circumstance. Farmer fields or deep woods back of property or commercial neighbors. Survey has only staked the corners. Really the line of sight is going to be a 6' wide swath through the underbrush on our side of the line. It may actually deviate from being on the line to as much as 10' inside the line due to some natural obstacles like streams, etc. Thanks for your fast reply!!!

OK - I think I have a handle on the best way for me to do what I'm doing but I want to just think out loud and get some input and feedback on what I'm trying to do. I’m using a Garmin GPSMap 60Csx. OK - I have a project where I am clearing a property line that is in the woods. I do not have line of sight between the property corners. I know GPS is not the best way to do this. My goal is to open things up to establish line of site between the corners. Farthest corner to corner distance is 700’. Over 20 corners. I have recorded GPS coordinates of each property corner (averaging); I then create a route between each point. I display off course, distance to dest, accuracy and bearing on the map. I switch between the map and the compass as I brush cut the line. If I find something I am certain is on the line (Like an old fence post) I record a waypoint (Averaging gets me to 10'-15’ est accuracy). I then have a shorter distance between points with my new route. My challenges. Wander - the GPSr may say I am on course and then a few seconds later it show off course. My off course varies, of course, by the accuracy of the GPSr at the moment. Accuracy - I have WAAS enabled, not sure if it matters, helps or hurts, I get about 16' - 20' accuracy indicated. Heavy tree cover. Bearing - Initially, my bearing jives with the bearing indicated on my survey. As I walk the line the compass wanders around. I often need to re-calibrate and sit still for a while before I get what I surmise is the correct direction to the property corner. Bearing with off course - The bearing is useless in my situation if I am off course. Lets say I am 10' south of the property line and my direction heading is correct, I could be brush hogging a long time in the wrong spot. I’m using the “Bearing Pointer” so when I’m on the course/line I know which way to go. I have not played with the “Course Pointer” The Course pointer will point me to the fastest direction back to the line, as I understand it. My questions… When looking at the map I have my current position pointer and I can see that relative to my route, I also see the circle indicating my accuracy. I’m zoomed in really close. Lets assume for a moment that the pointer is dead on my location. Is my location the tip of the pointer or the middle of the pointer? I ask because I thought it was the tip but I’m not sure. Off course reads zero when the center of the pointer is on the line, not the tip. Which is it, tip or middle? Is there an advantage, in my situation, in using the Course Pointer, not the Bearing Pointer? Is my location “averaged”? In other words, if I stand still long enough can I be relatively confident I’m where I think I am? (Not talking about averaging waypoints) When looking at my pointer in the middle of my circle, on the map, is the indication of where I am at pretty good or could it just as likely be anywhere within that circle? (related to previous question) Is there a better way to do what I’m trying to do w/o buying/renting a Trimble unit or other more accurate survey equipment? In other words, is there a better technique using my 60CSx? This is a continuation of the topic I started in April, revisiting some of the points made before, sorry if some is redundant. http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...=161361&hl= BTW - If anyone wants to come play in the woods and walk the property line as a GPSr excercise I can give you all the waypoints of the property corners. (20 plus corners, mile hike) Some history to the place, its an old campground established in 1876 and also an old, destroyed, benchmark on the property for which I have coordinates, a few stream bridges, old rail bed, etc. Also a concert this Sunday PM. I will be at the property over laborday weekend. PM me if you are interested. I'll be online today (Friday) until 5PM, sorry for the short notice. I'll post my cell too and edit it out after the weekend. My number is (six one oh) four oh five - five seven eight three Info on the concert at http://www.mt-olivet-pa.org also, click on map to see arial photo with corner overlay. Brik aka Brian

OK, not quite ready to move to the graveyard and have not 100% positively confirmed missing yet. http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.aspx?id=781251 geofun2007 logs that bugs that are supposed to be in the cache are not. That gets me suspecious. I emailed all the visitors (thee of them) from the time of the drop to geofun2007 and asked them if they saw, or took, the TB. My email was nice, it explained what a TB is and what to do with one if they found one, etc. So, the cache was either muggled, the original person who dropped the bug in really didn't or it was picked up and not logged by either "Shady Shiff" or "PapaJustify". Those two I have not recieved replies to my email from. The third visitor was "huntr70" who said, in response to my email, TNLN.