TeamIDFC

I've never bought maps from Garmin on SD cards so pardon the potentially ignorant question - why can't they be copied from the card to your PC? Assuming the maps are just IMG files, can't you put the micro-SD card in the SD adpater and put that in a reader attached to the PC and copy away? Or are they protected somehow? One cool thing I saw with them: routable trails. If the trails are reasonably complete that's a semi-cool feature...

As Moun10Bike noted, I started emailing municipalities in Washington once I saw the high quality dataset he had picked up for Bellevue. Starting from a list of Washington Cities and Towns (http://www.mrsc.org/byndmrsc/cities.aspx) I worked my way down the list until I had contacted any that had a reasonable chance of having GIS data available. The process is fairly time consuming, so I am only committing to doing Washington state, but I thought I'd write up my process if anyone wants to duplicate it for the other states/cities in the mapset. 1) Find a master list of cities - preferably with website links - and start a document to track status of each (I used an Excel sheet) 2) Navigate to a city website and try to find contact information for (in descending order) for: - the GIS contact - the head (typically Director) of the Public Works department (or the Engineering section of Public Works) - the generic email account for Public Works - the head of the Parks Department - the generic email account for Parks Department - the generic email account for the city Hints on finding the contact info: - Start with the "Departments" section and look for Public Works. Often the Director's contact info is front and center - Look for a generic "Contacts" section - Use the search function (if there is one) and search on "GIS" or "Engineering" My trial and error showed that almost all cities that have GIS have that person in the Public Works department, so you want to focus there. I also found after a few dozen cities that many are using a generic template for the website, so your ability to find the contact info get easier. 3) Email that contact with a form letter similar to the one at the end of this message, asking for any GIS data. 4) Handle the responses: - Larger cities with GIS departments are the easiest, and often just email the data. - Some cities want you to sign an indemnification, certifying you aren't using the data commercially and won't hold them responsible. I had to do that for 2 cities thus far. - Some cities wanted to charge for "custom" data. In both cases pleading the not-for-profit nature of the project got the fees waved, as well as telling them we didn't need a specific package - we'd take all the data and let Moun10Bike cut it down. That looks pretty involved when I write it out, but once I did the 10th city or so I could find a website and get a contact in a few minutes. Cities 10 - 98 didn't take nearly as long. Also, I've started on Washington Counties, as they often have data for their trails/parks. How is it going so far? As of 6/18/08: - 98 municipalities emailed - 11 have responded with GIS data - 9 have responded that they have no GIS data to offer If anyone decides to take a shot at this for other locations, please post a note to the forum so we don't have multiple people emailing the same city. -- Mr IDFC

Speaking of kayaking - has anyone kayaked the entire Sammamish River from Marymoor to Kenmore? Ms IDFC and I think it looks like a good one-way float - about 12 miles of very calm water. But that broaches some questions: 1) If you did it, how long did it take? Did you do one-way or round-trip? Which direction? 2) Does anyone know of a good method to lock kayaks in a public place? To go one way we'll need to do the two-car trick. We live near Marymoor, so the preferred way would be to drop the boats off at the launch, drive both cars to the pickup point, leave one there, and drive back to the launch. We can then pick up the spare car on the way home and we only back-track once. If we have to leave someone to defend the kayaks then we have an extra out-and-back, and with gas prices like they are... 3) We're obviously going to cache along the way, but there is only 1 cache in the River. We don't want to spam the river, but we do want to place some caches. What do people think a good balance is between too many/too few? One a mile seems the max, but we probably want to add more than one... -- Michael

Ms IDFC and I are most likely in either weekend. We'll even try not to be too obvious about where our caches are if/when the group paddles into the slough... We currently paddle in: - Ms IDFC: a Perception Sundance (12') - Mr IDFC: an Old Town Loon 138 (13') Both were around the $600 price point - they are between the short/inexpensive 10' models and the larger/more expensive "touing" models.

Cedra and I would vote for the later date - Mem weekend is a good excuse to get out of town now that she's got an actual job...

Just a note to anyone working on the challenge but doesn't have a watch set up on the cache: there were a couple errors in the GSAK filters (with hundreds of points I'm somewhat surprised I didn't make more). In any case, they are fixed and an updated copy has been uploaded. I've also added a Streets and Trips file with the page corners as pins for those that might find that useful. -- Michael

It's now posted: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GC1A012

I submitted the cache last night and (in what is becoming increasingly too common) wound up too close to a final of a mystery. We'll have to get out and chance it in the next day or so. Almost there...

Oh, you mean the "Create PQ Query" button that is right below the Loc button? Woops - missed that ever so obvious button...

Hmm, interesting question. I guess any legitamate find should count, so I don't think I would exclude archvied caches from the armchair race. Thanks for the kind words - with all the debate over rules and procedures it can take some of the fun out of the hide...

Force new. Otherwise what's the point? We've decided to effectively run two challenges in parallel. The "Armchair Challenge" and the "Starting Fresh" challenge. There will be two FTFs awarded, and there are two FTF prizes already in the cache. Hopefully this will avoid all the conflict we've seen in so many other challenge caches. If folks want to rediscover places they might have been - great. If they want to leverage their extensive cache finds - also great.

Also, as was explained to me the GPX file provision violates groundspeaks TOS. The easiest way around this is to have participants post a Book Mark list of the caches they are using to claim the challenge. To verify the cache owner could then use the option to convert a book mark list to a GPX Good point, and true. But only Premium Members can do bookmark lists. The Kitsap County Challenge folks appear to have developed an alternative that you might want to consider for this challenge, as well. That was the hope with the GPX file - that I wouldn't have to process by hand. I'll offer a text file or Excel option of some sort I guess.

In fairness I wasn't asking for thie MyFinds, I was asking for a GPX like Moun10Bike does for Delorme, but I think the bookmark makes sense to use (though I don't think you can do a PQ on it, just download it as a LOC file). We'll go with that.

Sorry for the massive delays - I would never have thought not working would be so time consuimg, but we've been traveling so things slowed, but... We just placed the final today. I'm in the process of working up the cache listing as I type.. Here's a summary of the "rules" thus far, any comments as I post? ----------------- What is the King County Thomas Guide Challenge? You’ve seen the DeLorme Challenge, the County Challenge, and perhaps the USGS Challenges – great caches that have taken cachers all over their respective states. TeamIDFC has logged thousands of miles exploring all that our state (as well as Oregon) has to offer over many road-trips and many months. In late 2007 Mr. IDFC first saw the San Bernardino Thomas Guide Challenge – a challenge cache that used the age-old Thomas Bros local street guides. Intrigued at the chance to do more exploration of our local areas, TeamIDFC began planning a version for King County. The Thomas Guides are street maps that were the de-facto local roadmaps and geographic breakdowns for many industries long before the prevalence of the GPS. The Northwest Multiple Listing Service (for real estate) uses Thomas Guide pages and grids in every house listing, for example. Thomas Guides are available online, in bookstores, and at Costco. The goal of this cache is the same as the other challenge caches: find a cache on each and every page of the 2008 version of the Thomas Guide that falls in King County. What’s so interesting about King County? Some interesting facts about King County: • Population: The estimated 2006 population was 1,835,300, the largest county by population in Washington and the 12th largest in the United States. As of 2006, the county had a population comparable to that of the state of Nebraska. • History: Founded out of territory from within Thurston County in 1852, the county was originally named for William Rufus King, the vice-president under Franklin Pierce. The county was renamed after Reverend Dr Martin Luther King in 2005, and the logo changed to his image in 2006. • Geography: King County has nearly twice the land area of the state of Rhode Island - 2,307 square miles. It is the 11th largest county in Washington (of 39) by area. The highest point in the county is Mount Daniel at (7,959 feet) above sea level. The county is home to two major and numerous minor lakes; 5 major rivers and untold creeks and streams; several mountains; and hundreds of square miles of national, state, and local parks • Geocaches: At the time of this posting, King County had over 2300 caches! Plenty of which you haven’t found! Ok, what are the particular rules/guides/nuances of this challenge? In order to claim this cache, you just need to send us a GPX file containing all of your finds. We will process the list and verify the number of pages your file contains. Assuming everything looks good, we will send you the correct coordinates for the physical cache! The find cannot be logged until the physical container is found and the logbook inside signed. Based on feedback from and incidents seen with other challenge caches and the Geocaching.com forums, some rules need to be established: 1. The posted coordinates are not the actual coordinates for the cache, but are less than 2 miles from these coordinates. 2. At the time of initial posting of this cache, 4 grids did not have caches, and 1 grid had only a single cache. Placement of a cache on an empty page counts the same as finding a cache on that page, until there are 3 or more caches on a page. 3. Only physical cache types with a log count towards the challenge – no virtual, event, or Earthcaches will count for this challenge. 4. If a Thomas Guide page includes space not located in King County, only caches in the King County portion count. We will go off of the posted coordinates for a cache when determining in which county and page a given cache falls. 5. The 2008 version will be considered definitive. 6. When in doubt ask – they will be plenty of discussion but the final decision rests with the cache owner. Thanks to Haicoole for starting the challenge phenomena; to Mount10Bike for the Washington Delorme, the GPX filters, and the template for this page; to Hynr for incorporating this challenge in his GSAK Challenge macro; and to Ms IDFC for putting up with Mr IDFC when he was obsessed with creating this cache. How do I submit and what tools are available? Send me a file containing all of your finds (and any applicable hides) at MichaelLuce@gmail.com. I will verify your progress/completion for you. The preferred format is .GPX - if you are unsure how to generate such a file, please see globalgirl's extremely helpful WADC Primer (yes, it is for the Delorme, but the GPX generation is the same). Oh, yeah, how about that FTF/previous found stuff? Rather than make hard and fast rules of “starting fresh” or not, we’ve decided that we will award two FTFs and two FTF prizes. The first person/team to log the cache with legitimate finds in all pages will get the “first” FTF. The first team to log the cache with finds only after the cache posting will get a different FTF. There are two FTFs currently in the cache, each wrapped and marked accordingly. (Please don’t take the “starting fresh” FTF if you aren’t trying for it – thanks!) Finally, if you’ve got questions – ask. If you want to discuss more, there is a forum posting at: this link. --------------- Hopefully we'll be up and running in the next couple days!

The later - if the page has a reasonable sport for a cache (there's at least one page that isn't going to be included).

Thoughts on placing? With 4 pages having no caches and one page having only a single cache, I'm wondering what the crowd thinks about placed caches counting for the challenge? In order to avoid tons of caches getting placed I was thinking that any placed cache in a page with less than 3 caches could count. Thoughts? Too specific and arbitrary?

Update: I've done all the first-round transcription and conversion. Of the 81 King County pages in the 2008 version of the 3-county Thomas Guide I have, 5 pages have no caches, and one has a single cache. Of the 5 without a cache: - Page 712: This is SE Vashon - specifically the area that includes Spring Beach Park and the areas north and south. This seems ripe for a cache placement. Anyone know any Vashon Cachers? - Page 742: A tiny little bit of extreme SE Vashon that doesn't look to be publicly accessible. I'm just going to remove it from the challenge. - Page 743: The bottom southwest of Vashon that includes Tahlequah and the Point Defiance Tahlequah Ferry dock. Another location that could use a cache. Again the call to Vashon cachers... - Page 807: The area from the Muckleshoot reservation in the northwest to just outside Enumclaw to the southeast. Also capable of handling a cache (Farmers Park, perhaps?) - Page 837: One of the more surprising areas without a cache as it includes parts of Bonney Lake through to parts of Buckley. Once I pull 742 that will just leave 4 without a cache. Of the rest, a few pages are places were all the caches are hikes (on the I-90 corridor, for example) so this is going to be a meaty cache to complete. I'm currently working with Hynr to get his GSAK Challenge macro to incorporate this challenge, and I'm finalizing the GSAK filters for the finders to use for their targeting. That's enough for this morning, off to cache in Palm Springs!

WHY didn't I think of that?!!! How absolutely brilliant. That would've pleased the majority and prevented all the flaming I was getting over the whole thing. Agreed - that is brilliant! I'm thinking the first 5 are "new" (from zero) contestants - then we open to the world. That means the world can start on it immediately, but it will be a month or so before the first 5 or so log and then everyone else can. Does that work for everyone?

Cool tool, and I'll keep it around, but it seems to be just interactive - I need something scriptable to handle the hundred's of points to convert... Thanks!

I honestly don't think that's going to be a problem for all but about a couple of pages, and I'm already going to have to account for the 2 pags that don't have a cache. Hmm...

I have been tending to think along these lines. Even though we are setting up the cache, Ms IDFC really wants to "find" this one as well, and she (ironicly) wants a resonable shot at an FTF or near-FTF. Given that, and I know that this will be annoy some - we are leaning toward a 1/1/2008 starting point to give everyone a shot at the FTF. Yeah! I've transcribed about 60% of the HH' MM' SS' corners on the flight down, and I expect to have the rest of them transcribed by the end of next week. Question: Does anyone know of an Excel formula or scritable web service to convert between DMS and Decimal? I'm going to have to convert about 350 of them, and I'm not willing to that by hand. Also, someone asked about grids without caches. At a glance, there appear to actually be fairly few that don't have any caches. I'll likely be posting a plee for someone to place in those grids sometime next week. Thanks for all the interest! -- Michael

I don't think you are contrarian - this isn't a one-size-fits-all as was also noted. Part of the reason we are torn is when we started the Delorme we had about 10 pages - it wasn't from scratch. But, we are doing the county challenge from scratch (just 1 more to go!). I like the even playing field idea. I don't like cumbersome rules. I like plenty of folks wanting to participate. I don't want something fun to be contentious. Good luck with all that, eh? I'm off on a plane to Palm Springs, so I've got 2.5 hours to start transcribing the coordinates and setting up the filters. Once I do I'm probably going to ask some hard-core local cachers to send me a copy of their "My Finds" and see if any of them would have already completed the vast majority of the grids and that might help make the decision easier.

Good points - I was leaning that way originally, but seeing the other challenge caches made me wonder... So, the current "rules" would be nothing more than finding a physical cache on each page.

I ran across GCRGNP (San Bernardino County Thomas Guide Challenge) a while back and thought it was pretty cool. It takes the basic premise of Delorme/Quadrangle/etc and uses the Thomas Guide as the delineation. I've been thinking about it for some time, but didn't have the map data. Today at Costco I picked up the 2008 edition and it has map datum so this is now reasonably feasible to do and be accurate. I was thinking about creating a King County version if there was sufficient interest. Pros: - Another cool challenge with about 70 caches to grab - Reasonably close-in locations (don't have to drive all of Washington) - Another excuse to get out, and one that is a bit easier than the Delorme to do in the winter Cons: - Some of the super-cachers will have already done many of the caches - Another $25 to spend if you don't have a current version of the map (the only one with map datum) - The amount of time it will take me to transcribe and convert all the map data to make GSAK filters for all the pages… So, fellow cachers, I ask thee: If I build it, will they come? And, if we do go ahead with it, what are your thoughts on: - New vs old: Should we allow previous finds, or force just new? I'd be included for new to get folks out, but with some many grids perhaps old makes it more approachable? - Cache types: Any (virtual, webcam, micro)? I'd be included to go with any physical cache - anything with a log in it Any all feedback appreciated… -- Michael (Mr TeamIDFC)

I assume that the EDGE-based non-internal GPS Blackberry Pearls are out of luck? Any future support hope there?