JPreto

Can you put the topic in what that was debated? Thanks! These discuss the arrest and final outcome of the Repak incident. Cache Maggot Arrested The facts and only the facts about Rome, NY If you want to read up on opinions concerning who owns caches, you'll need to do some searching on cache maggots, cache thieves, etc. There were a number of discussions back in the day. I don't think it's been discussed much since Repak until now. Thanks, I´ll look into it...

Two thoughts: First, your logic is horribly broken. I get that you are just trying to bolster your argument, but I firmly believe that most people can tell the difference between a throw down and some other game's game piece. Second, you pulled the wrong article if you are using it to conclude that a person who steals a geocache will go to jail. That article only stated that he was arrested. First... read the link fully, but here is a quote just for you: Second, BUSTED!!!!!!

Can you put the topic in what that was debated? Thanks! A search will turn it up, but I have to warn you, you are not going to find the conclusion to be satisfying. Google is better!!!! http://romesentinel.com/news?newsid=20100217-141107 So the answer is yes... you can go to jail for stealing geocaches, so... you can go to jail for stealing any type of game related container. So, how do you know the throwdown container is a throwdown for your game or a container from another game? Hahahahahaha... It seems after all that if the person that places the throwdown doesn´t mention it you cannot assume it is a throwdown in your cache or a cache from another game. This said, you should not remove the container!

Can you put the topic in what that was debated? Thanks!

I was reading the portuguese Law about ownership an it clearly states that you are responsible for your own property until some else becomes the new proprietary. They even give an example that was ruled in Portugal: "I person owned a building that was falling apart and the person didn´t want both the land nor the building, because in recent years taxes must be applied in both vertical and horizontal property (this means that the taxes are applied by the total area of the building, each floor, and not only the amount of constructed land, in the ground). So this guy said I don´t want it any more so I don´t have to pay the taxes. The government ruled against him saying it´s his property and he is responsible for it, taxes included!" So... this is about a building, maybe about a cellphone is different... or it depends on the value of the object (which I sincerely don´t think so... but we never know). In any case, It is yours until it belongs to someone else, you can´t just say: "I don´t want to be held responsible for something that is mine so, I don´t want it anymore!".

Ok Ben0w, I understand we are talking about different concepts here, but let me just say that I am not a lawyer so all my beliefs are based in my common sense and little knowledge I have on Laws: 1. Gift Someone - you propose to exchange ownership of a product; 2. Give up ownership - I don´t believe this exists by Law terms; 3. Leave and object in another person´s property - you call this littering. Right? In case 1. you the second person doesn´t accept the gift, the container is still yours and may be held responsible for it. This is the case I mention. In case 2. as I don´t think you can´t just say: "I don´t want it anymore" you must pass the property to someone, usually by throwing it on the garbage bin, outside your door, giving the container to the municipality or a company that removes trash. In case 3. is the one I think you mention. And you are right on saying that is littering because you are placing somehting is another person´s property without his permission. Problem is, what if in case 3. it is a public property? Say a street... You may say you are just placing it there to hide it but it is still your property, you can even write n it: "Property of Ben0w". The main problem here is the intention of the person that makes the throwdown, is he trying to gift the CO or is he just placing another container nearby so he can trick the CO? And yet again, the CO can always accept the gift or not... Just give a, not so uncommon examples: 1. I am in a bar and can say to a friend: "look, your phone is old, have mine!" and by doing this I am trying to exchange ownership of the cellphone. If that person doesn´t accept the phone it is still my phone. 2. I am in a bar throw the phone on the floor and say: "Stupid phone, I don´t want it anymore" but by saying this I am not giving up ownership of the cellphone, it is still my phone until someone picks it up and keeps it for himself. If that person sees the situation he/she will say: "Are you sure you don´t want it... so can I have it". Another scenario would be if after I throw it on the floor the cleaning person found it and kept the cellphone but, if I would claim it I am sure the court would be on me and that person would be accused of stealing. So, I really think you cannot give up ownership unless someone is willing to gain the ownership of the object. 3. I go to a bar with my cellphone and I leave it on the bar, inside somebody else property, right? Actually I am not giving up the ownership of my cellphone, it is still mine and if I find it in the hands of someone else I may accuse that person of stealing me. So... these are 3 examples, not with geocaches but with more common objects that you can relate with a geocache since the bar is a private property.

If this is directed towards me: you tend to misread things. I feel the same way... and just starting with the guidelines, not even with what it is said in the forum! I guess what some of us are saying, like I said in many other topics, is that the person that places the throwdown is responsible for it. Groundspeak states that the CO is responsible for removing the throwdown and should guarantee that the cache is ok and that no other containers are in the surroundings. Problem is the Law, the person that makes the throwdown is responsible for it so the CO can just say: "Not my fault that another person is placing containers around mine!" and this container can belong or not to the geocaching.com listing! This means that I can be playing a different game a place a container in the same place as the CO geocache and he should not appropriate or remove my container. Again, this is why it is so important to identify the container as a geocache so people don´t get lost on signing the logbook. And just as a conclusion, to be on-topic, the throwdown it is owned by the person who placed it until being accepted by another person, that can be the CO, the landowner or another person that finds it and takes it, unless the person that places the throwdown clearly states that the gift is intended only for the CO, in that case, if the landowner or another person removes it, they are just stealing!

You are not forced to participate!!!! Talk to the hand....

I guess it must just be a suggestion and a poor one at that because it ignores purported property law. Although someone might try to leave a throwdown with the condition that I accept it as a replacement for my cache, my attitude is that I can ignore any conditions in the "gift" and do as I please with the thrown down contatiner, regardless of any of the dubious legal theories that have be proposed in this thread. And while there are laws that may prevent me from doing what I please with a box of puppies or kittens left on my porch, I could turn them over to the humane society or rescue shelter and not let them languish while I claim they are the resposibility of the person who left them. Basically we reach a to a conclusion that Law is above Groundspeak!!!! That is: 1) if you choose to remove the throwdown you are accepting the gift therefore it is yours and you can do whatever you want with it, even using it as a geocache, replacing another one that was gone or just putting it on the garbage. or, 2) you can just leave it there and say: "I didn´t put it there, it´s not mine!" This is what the Law says... but Groundspeak, because the option 2) is not good for the game says what we quoted several times: Problem is, like the example I put before if I am playing the "find the 35mm tube" and someone thinks that that is a throwdown and removed my 35mm tube from my hideout. I can actually sue that person, accusing him from stealing! So... Even tho Groundspeak suggests that the throwdown can be removed only with the confirmation that, in fact, the container is a throwdown and you are being offered a new container you cannot remove it because it isn´t yours!!!! This is funny!!!!!

In other words, someone offered you a gift, but you declined it, so it never became a gift. The person who left the throwdown is responsible for it. Will you also agree that the cache owner has a responsibility for ensuring that his cache is not attracting litter and to clean up any resulting litter? No... the CO is responsible for the CONTAINER and what is INSIDE THE CONTAINER, he/she is not responsible for what is OUTSIDE THE CONTAINER... What he is responsible is for placing the cache is a location where:

It's pure hyperbole to equate deleting a geocache log with arresting innocent people. Of course it is, but I was trying to work within 4wf's analogy. You cant´see a patern arysing from 4WF´s comments? You can clearly see my behaviour as "puritan" (quoting Toz) but you can´t see 4WF´s teasing comments...

Actually, I can and I just did. That's the exact reason why we label our Geocaches and include stash notes -- in the hope that people who come across our little game will understand it's not litter and leave it alone. If you want to leave random things around you can pretty much assume someone will call it litter and toss it. Great... So in the US/Canadá all geocaches are labeled, and I guess when a person places a throwdown he/she carefully labeled the cache with the GC code and owner data, right? Well, in Brazil I can say that very few caches are labelled as caches... just look at my profile I take pictures of evey container I found. I would say less then 5% of the caches the I found are labeled with, at least a geocaching logo, much less the GC code or the owner data!

It can only be defined as litter by using the law? I came across a fast food coffee cup on the ground in my local park while walking the dog last night. I deemed it as litter and treated it accordingly. Pretty sure I don't need to worry about Johnny LEO coming after me because I failed to establish proper ownership of it before tossing it in the trash. If someone drops a film canister in a bush where I have a cache hidden, I can either accept the throwdown as the cache and leave it or I can deem it litter and remove it. Regardless of ownership or the law, in real life the person who left it there ain't coming back to remove it for me, even if I can find out who it was and get in contact with them. The law says pedestrians have the right of way when crossing the street. Regardless, when a car hits a pedestrian it is the pedestrian who loses therefore the pedestrian should take responsibility for their safety when crossing the street. Regardless of who owns a throwdown in the eyes of the law, it is you as the CO who needs to take responsibility for what is happening to the area around your cache. I agree.....I think this is what sbell has been advocating. Sorry but the CO cannot say what things can and can´t be on the side of his/her geocache!!!! Imagine I am not a geocacher but I am playing a game with my family that is called "seek the 35mmm tube" and I hide ten of them in my neighborhood unaware that a geocacher already placed a 35mm tube there. My game is about following tracks and doesn´t involve a GPS. I am allowed to play my game and all the ten 35mm pots I placed are mine! If by any chance I see the CO of the cache removing my 35mm tube because he/her thinks it is a throwdown I will be pretty mad at him... Why is he ruining my game? So... really... You can´t advocate that!!!!

Nobody is doing that. What I actually said was: "most geocachers prefer to turn the head to the problem instead of solving it". For me solving it is trying to stop people from placing throwdowns that most of us agree that are bad for the game. So, if you REALLY want to make people less prone to place a throwdown tell me another way to do it that I am all into it! until then I feel that the best solution is to delete all logs on the throwdown logbook!

My idea posted in another thread was to singly identify each cache with something unique that nothing else would be confused. Just launching an idea: "Passive RFID identifiers" If you place a very small antenna in the passive RFID and placed it inside the geocache people would have to tag the container and it should be the correct one, otherwise it wouldn´t mark. Passive RFIDs are cheap... i´ll do some tests on this issue!

I really think that it would show others that throwdowns are bad. Even tho most geocachers would feel bad with the CO that deleted the logs, actually they should feel bad with the "fellow geocacher" that placed the throwdown. If that wouldn´t be the case they would probably had found the correct container and log a correct found it log. So... I do really think that if more people deleted all logs that where not done in the actual geocache but in the throwdown the global attitude towards a throwdown might change. The way things are going not only it will not change as the amount of throwdowns will grow!

Exactly what I said before... Looking to the other side instead of dealing with the problem!

Hurray... one of mine!!!!! Give me five!!!!

While the mistake is somewhat understandable, it's still a mistake and not a find. Not the but a cache!

Except that the whole thread is people supporting this. Don't I get extra latitude because I'm travelling? I am throwing the film can out the window in good faith! Sorry, I am not!

This is an attempt to satisfy the ones that are puritans and the ones that are sloppy COs and don´t do proper maintenance. With this more players will play the game thus more income. Simple!

I geocache when I travel. I don't expect to claim finds on caches I didn't find, whether the cache is 5000km from or 5km from home. Writing my name on garbage near the GZ is not finding a geocache. Maybe I should just change this log into a FOUND IT! Right? http://coord.info/GLDFKF51

So... If I go to the USA, because I am away from home, I am allowed to make a throwdown so I can log a far away cache? Now the COs must also take in consideration the distance from home in order to delete or not a bogus found it...

So, maybe I am reading it wrong but are you saying that if you drove 5000+ miles to search for a cache and what you actually found was a throwdown you are entitled to keep the found... but if you only drove 5 miles there is no problem? Com´on man!

For me, one case is facing the problem... another is looking away from the problem!