3 Hawks
-
Posts
172 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by 3 Hawks
-
-
I attended that event! RocketMan, Flagman and I found 100 "real" caches before that event! We hiked over 10 miles and off-roaded to a bunch in the La Quinta area. It was a lot of fun.
I prefer to attend event caches like this, where the geocaching community hid over 100 real geocaches with real GC #s, before the event. There wasn't want "temp" to be found, all were permanent geocaches that met GC guidelines.
The number of temp caches at these events seems to growing to the point where it would be very easy for others to conclude there is some funny business going on. Why don't you tell us how far apart 68 temp caches are? Someone mentioned that as one of the higher numbers of temp caches at one event. It would also take most people all day just to find and log that many caches not counting spending time at the event....After you have attended a WI event, you will have the right to make comments. You guys would make it sound like event temps are placed 50 feet apart in an open field. You could not be further from the truth.Every event i've attended here in California featured newly listed caches, that weren't swept up after the event was over.
They must have been tricky hides to find all 100 before an event.
Some might consider this to be a form of stat padding. The BoB series in Chicago was similar. .10 miles between magnetic caches on signs. Real challenging. I'd run down to Chicago to do them, but most have been muggled and archived.How many hours did it take to find alll 100 in La Quinta? I'm sure you did it in less than 25 hours. Did you have any DNF's? What was the average search time?
-
The number of temp caches at these events seems to growing to the point where it would be very easy for others to conclude there is some funny business going on. Why don't you tell us how far apart 68 temp caches are? Someone mentioned that as one of the higher numbers of temp caches at one event. It would also take most people all day just to find and log that many caches not counting spending time at the event....After you have attended a WI event, you will have the right to make comments. You guys would make it sound like event temps are placed 50 feet apart in an open field. You could not be further from the truth.Well I've never attended an event with 68 temps. I've attended 6 events and I have 84 attend logs. After subtracting the actual event attends, that leaves 78 temps. That is only 13 per event. That is a far cry short of 50-68 per event. At 50 to 68 per event, my temp find count would be between 300 an 408!!
One of the events was a night event in the middle of a torrential rain storm. I was soaked to the bone. Another was a Superbowl event and the windchills were deadly. Winter storm warning were in effect and it was not advisable for anyone to be out in the elements. Everyone knows that would not stop cachers.
Most of the temps I've found were well over a tenth of a mile apart. Most were miles apart and you had to drive between them. All of the temps were standard hides and many had DNF's. I spent well over 25 hours hunting these temps. I average over 4 finds per hour on a standard day. Heck, I found 14 caches last evening in 3.5 hours with 1/2 hour spent on a muggled DNF. I will probably find over 30 tomorrow. No...I have a job and I work a 40+ hour work week. I just don't work Mondays. Gotta have time to hit the trails.
We'd be happy to log them as "finds," but that is only an option at CITO events. For consistancy, most log 'em as attends.
Not everyone in WI logs their event temps as finds/attends. It is a personal decision.
-
I hate to point this out, since it is only your "opinion", but the practice of logging event temps is not limited to any one region. I checked the postings for 6 events in 6 different states. 3 allowed the practice for that event and 3 did not allow the practice for that event. The three who did allow it were not all in the same "region."
Opinions are fine, but be careful how you word them or they may seem to be an assertion of fact. Unfortunately, your facts are wrong.
Translation of 3Hawks post:
I've attended 6 event caches a total of 84 times, which means the pratice of logging "temps" in in "cheezeland" is ethical. Everyone else who disagrees with me is wrong and opinionated.
The surface of the moon tastes like cheese. Is this my opinion or is it a statement of fact? Can you disprove it? See how easy it is? I can pass off opinion all day as fact and only the well informed would know the difference.Does anyone have the latest edition of the rule book? No....Why?
This is nothing more than cleverly written psychobabble used to muddy the water. In reality, you guys came up with an interesting number padding scheme to rack up extra smileys, there in "cheeseland."
I guess you could say that I'm flexible and accepting in my approach to caching.Flexible? How about creating your own game.
The geocaching.com FAQ's clearly state that there are many different ways to play and there are many variations on the cache types. The FAQ even encourages and celebrates these variations because they enhance the game. Does all of this mean Groundspeak is lying in the FAQ's? No!!! It means exactly what is written there for the whole world to see.I'm fairly sure when Groundspeak refers to geocaches, they are referring to permanent geocaches with their own cache page and GC # not temps. (My opinion shared by many other cachers.)
Most of the statements I've read in this thread are opinion only.Just like your "statements of fact?"
This community is centered on geocaching. That's what we have in common. When you diverge too far from the center, you are not geocaching. You are doing something else. There is nothing wrong with working towards common ground. That's what communities do. There is a lot wrong with someone trying to tell me that what they do doesn't matter. If it binds us as a community it matters. You can call this thread gentle guidance on double dipping. We all still claim the thread participants as our own. If this thread was about "Logging a find on a cache you stole". We would not be claiming that person as one of our own.I think Groundspeak should create a questionaire to get a feel for what the majority actually thinks about these activities.
Gee, thanks for the creative translations of my words. You've taken them out of context, twisted them, and translated tham to fit your arguement. You've even given me credit for a wave vector quote. Your actions have proven one of my points.
I really like your assumption of intent regarding GC.com's FAQ's. Are you sure they would be in agreement with your translations? You've taken their words, changed their meaning, implied intent, and twisted them to suite your arguement. You have once again proven my point.
Talk about muddied waters. That was my point. It appears that you are in agreement since you have taken my quote and restated exactly that point.
Man, this is fun! I make points and let you guys prove them. Thanks for the assistance.
After you have attended a WI event, you will have the right to make comments. You guys would make it sound like event temps are placed 50 feet apart in an open field. You could not be further from the truth.
After you've examined all of the logs for all of the events in the US, you may make generalizations about regional practices. Until such time, your assertions on the issue have no real merit and are only conjecture and opinion.
What are the practices in Germany or England? What do the Aussies do? How is the game played in Argentina? Their practices would also have to be taken into consideration.
-
For the record, I have never called anyone a cheater. I just think it is silly to log "Attended" at an Event 78 times because there were a number of temporary caches there, especially since this is not a widespread practice, but is only accepted regionally. But, that's okay . . .
These are my opinions. I don't expect my "opinions" are going to change the way things are done on GC.com, but that is what these Forums are for, expressing our personal opinions.
I hate to point this out, since it is only your "opinion", but the practice of logging event temps is not limited to any one region. I checked the postings for 6 events in 6 different states. 3 allowed the practice for that event and 3 did not allow the practice for that event. The three who did allow it were not all in the same "region."
Opinions are fine, but be careful how you word them or they may seem to be an assertion of fact. Unfortunately, your facts are wrong.
The surface of the moon tastes like cheese. Is this my opinion or is it a statement of fact? Can you disprove it? See how easy it is? I can pass off opinion all day as fact and only the well informed would know the difference.
Does anyone have the latest edition of the rule book? No....Why?
I've logged two pocket caches as finds in my first year of caching. There were not 50 pocket caches at the event. There were only 2 pocket caches and I don't remember pocket caches at any other event I have attended. I’ve decided that I won't log pocket caches anymore because I agree that it's just odd. I had never seen a pocket cache before and others were telling me that it was acceptable to log it as a find. I assumed everyone did this and I assumed it was a normal part of the game. Now I know it is not widely practiced. I made the decision not to do this again in the future on my own accord, but I would never imply that anyone who does this is cheating.
I guess you could say that I'm flexible and accepting in my approach to caching. The geocaching.com FAQ's clearly state that there are many different ways to play and there are many variations on the cache types. The FAQ even encourages and celebrates these variations because they enhance the game. Does all of this mean Groundspeak is lying in the FAQ's? No!!! It means exactly what is written there for the whole world to see.
Most of the statements I've read in this thread are opinion only. Unfortunately, one side of the argument seems to try to pass them off as fact. I've seen quotes from imaginary rule books and a lot of misquotes and out of context statements.
I've got a ‘friggin’ smile from ear to ear! Lots of smiles; no angst here; just a love for caching and respect for others.
Edit: (SP) 12:06 AM
-
I'm not good at math, but there are 341 Archived caches out of the 2594 I have found . . .
Thats 13.14572089%.
Mine is about 4%.
-
There is no obligation at all to place caches. I wish some folks wouldn't place them actually.
And how!!! Well said!
-
I agree. Nothing good can come of a container that resembles a pipe bomb even if there a geocaching stickers pasted all over the thing. It's just a poor personal choice by the owner.
-
Please remember, we are from Wisconsin, the land time forgot and nobody really understands. We all drive an old pick-up and we only get to go caching after we milk our cows. It's all hillbillies and hoedowns in these parts.
I've been to California a few times and I must say there are a lot of things you guys do differently. The least of these would have nothing to do with geocaching. Miller Lite was on the premium list at the bars I visited in the LA area some 12 years ago. If you think any Miller beer product is a "premium" beer, and a fair price for a hotel room sized condo is $500,000.00 then I feel sorry for you and I understand the anger.
I've only cached in five states and guess what? I've seen different caching practices on these topics in each of the states. Unfortunately, none were the same and none were identical to that which seems to be the practice out in the land of TV and movie stars. How is Paris doing?
I checked out event logs from 6 events in 6 states and found 3 that allowed logging of temps as attends and 3 that did not. That's three additional states, two in which I've caches and one where I have not, that allow this practice. That's 50%. Now, my sample size is a little small. What do you think I'd find if I looked into the practices of each state?
I think my Green Bay colleague may be referring to certain variant of "multi." There are a few around but you don't see them very often because they become too hard to maintain. You have say....18 stages. Each "stage" cache is miles/counties from the next. Each stands alone. Each is in a unique location. Each has its very own GC#. Some of the stages are standard caches. Some of the stages are traditional multi-caches. Some of the stages are puzzle caches. Each has a log.
You obtain a clue from each of the caches, compile the data, and solve for the location of a "mystery" cache that might be another 30 miles away. It is more of a series of caches with a mystery cache at the end for those who choose to find all of the "stages." You only need to find the stages if you want to find the mystery cache.
I just wanted to clarify before the next "cheessehead" gets sniped by another "bash WI" thread.
-
I would just like someone to tell me how this recurrent topic adds anything positve to geocaching or to the quality of any of our lives.
I consider caching and discussing caching on a forum as two totally different activities. I won't think of this or any other thread at all the next time I'm out caching.
As for what it adds to my life- these forums add value for me through entertaining and informative discussions with creative, mostly friendly people. Some threads are more entertaining and informative than others, (and some people friendlier than others) but on the whole it's pretty positive for me.
Can't argue with that. Cache on!!!
-
It's not always easy to stay on one side of a line when the line is not visible and you do your best not to across that line. Furthermore, the line seems to move slightly one way and the other from time to time.
It's very easy when your philosophy is one signed log on a GC-listed cache/event is one online "Found It/Attended" log on the GC-website. The line is incredibly clear to me.
Why do we insist on overcomplicating that which is intended to be pure and simple by bringing absolute judgment into the equation?Some of us enjoy caching very simplistically. I enjoy finding the cache. Period. I'm cool with no numbers at all. I have just as much fun finding an unlisted never-to-be-logged temp cache at an event as I do any listed cache that has a smiley attached. I love letterboxing, and it's certainly not a numbers activity. The cache is the thing.
I don't feel it's overcomplicated at all. To not log is incredibly uncomplicated. Do nothing.
To log a cache/event multiple times- that's adding some steps.
...and to spend our time respectfully discussing this issue over and over and over and over..........is not overcomplicating the overall geocaching experience?
I geocache alone most of the time and I do it for any number of personal reasons. I don't need posted numbers to validate my activities. I own a low end GPS'r. I don't own a 4X4. I don't have a PDA. I don't carry a cell phone. I don't have any maps loaded onto my GPS'r. I load up coords and go where the magic arrow points. I find a cache. I sign a log. I log a find. If I don't find the cache, I post a DNF. Now that's simplicity! I don't think about work. I don't think bad thoughts about anyone while on the trail. I'm just enjoying life. Getting all worked up over something as insignificant as this overcomplicates geocaching at so many levels.
I would just like someone to tell me how this recurrent topic adds anything positve to geocaching or to the quality of any of our lives.
That is my point. Nice and simple.
-
Thanks for reminding me that I'm 36.
-
Is it cheating to log a find on a cache you stumble across by accident? I've found at least 5 caches through the application of dumb luck. I wasn't looking for the caches and I did not even know the caches existed. I just took some detours after the little voice in my head would say "Hey, go look over there. That looks like a great place to hide a cache."
Is it cheating to log a find for locating the final stage of a multi without finding one or even any of the WP's? I've had to resort to pure luck on a few multi's because of missing WP's. I did not use PAF and I applied deductive reasoning, common sense, and pure luck to find the caches.
Is it cheating to log a find on a puzzle cache even though you did not solve the puzzle? I've had to resort to blind searches on a few puzzle caches that I couldn't solve. I had a good idea of where to look for one and I just had a "feeling" on another. The location of the cache's were nowhere near the puzzle's posted coords and I had to use some wicked "voodoo luck" on them.
Is it cheating to log a find on a cache that has not yet been posted? Once again, I stumbled across two caches that had not yet been approved or posted. Dumb luck rules again. I did not claim FTF's but I did log them as finds after the official FTF's were posted.
Is it cheating to log a find after discovering an M&M that had been run over my a lawn mower? I found one in hundreds of little orange pieces. I also found the log sheet on the ground a few feet away. I picked up as much as I could find, signed the log, and placed the remains in a Ziploc baggie. I re-hid the remains at the site and e-mailed the owner. Normally, I'd just CITO the remains, but I was 300 miles from home and the cachers in that community might not have believed me if I logged a find with a note that I had CITO'd the remains and the log after I had signed it. Additionally, the owner had performed maintenance on this cache on multiple occasions in the past and had just upgraded to the M&M container. I knew he would follow-up on my post and I knew he would get a replacement container in play soon. Furthermore, the log was still in relatively good shape. I found the cache, I signed the log, and I replaced the cache. Sounds like a find to me.
Is it cheating to log a find on a cache that had been archived over two years ago after stumbling across it while bushwacking through a swamp? I found an ammo box. I was not looking for it but I found it none the less. The coords and name of the cache were written on the lid. I loaded up the coords and sloshed 450 feet to where my GPS'r said was GZ. A duck hunter's blind was 15 feet away and I knew this had to be an old archived cache, so I just CITO'd the cache. I e-mailed the owner and I still have the ammo box in my garage as proof. I logged it as a find. If I had not made the 450-foot trek to GZ, would it have been cheating?
I think these fall under the "hole in one rule." If your tee shot hits a tree, bounces off of a rock, smacks into another ball already on the green, rolls to a stop within a hair of falling into the hole, gets nailed by seagull poop, and falls into the hole; it's a hole in one. Your intent was to hit the ball into the hole and that is where it ended up.
I head into the woods to find caches. If I find a cache, it's a find. There is a fine line between skill and luck.
Is a find based on the cache or the log? If you find a cache where the log is missing, is it still a find if you write your name on any old piece of paper and add it to the cache?
Earlier today, a local cache was archived after being muggled. I was the last person to post a DNF because it was not there. The cache's owner e-mailed me and said I could log my visit as a find. I declined after thanking them for the gesture. I know some would think it cheating if I had logged it as a find. Some would say "Go ahead and log it since the owner offered."
It's not always easy to stay on one side of a line when the line is not visible and you do your best not to across that line. Furthermore, the line seems to move slightly one way and the other from time to time.
Cheating implies intent to seek an advantage or gain. Intent must be proved before any conviction on the count can be rendered. In the absence of any defined and/or real advantage or gain, any lapses in judgment must be discounted unless you can obtain an admission of guilt.
Why do we insist on overcomplicating that which is intended to be pure and simple by bringing absolute judgment into the equation?
-
Let's see:
$30.00 Premium Membership
That leads to pocket query addiction and the need for a program to manage all that data.
$25.00 to register GSAK (Geocaching Swiss Army Knife)
Then, after finding out the information can be sent to a PDA, you make a visit to eBay to look for inexpensive PDAs.
$30.00 for a Palm M500
But, you need a hard case for that so it doesn't break the first time you drop it while caching, so back to eBay . . .
$15.00 for a hard case
Then, you need a good, easy-to-use program for the Palm.
$8.00 for Cachemate
Then, after you see how deep the addiction goes, you might go the way a friend of mine did and spend a little more.
$16,000.00 for a 4WD vehicle . . .
Hmmmmmmmmmm, now who the heck would do that!
No, but really you forgot the jump from the initial GPS12 up to the GPSMap 60CSx after seeing thats what all the other
cool cahers are sporting, not to mention the assorted carriers and holders, depending on the car I am driving or if the "GEOMobile" is in use.But after all is said and done the hunt is priceless!
So for the OP, sure go for the $3 fee, you won't regret it!
Thanks Miragee
My wife thought geocaching was cheap and harmless when she purchsed a GPSr for me last Father's Day. I'm just waiting for my Ford Escort to die so I can justify something a little more effective on the trails. I've tried to kill my E-trex Legend so that I could justify an upgrade, but the darn thing just bounces off rocks. Thousands of dollars on gas, diet Mountain Dew, and Little Debbie snack cakes.
Hundreds of dollars on clothing, boots, packs, and other equipment. I have eight flashlights in my caching bag that goes almost everywhere I go. The $3.00 monthly fee is well worth the price and is just a drop in the bucket. You'll be glad you tried it and you will not want to give up the members only features once you've had a chance to play with them.
Groundspeak is far too generous and $30 a year is a steal for what you get.
-
Whoa. Okay. First, let's not presume to understand the original posters situation, or anyone else's for that matter. Second, disagree all you want but treat others with respect.
Man I can't stand when forum posters take the moral high ground. Almost as much as I can't stand forum posters being disrespectful.
The forum is no place for common courtesy and respectful discourse. The forum is dominated by narrow-minded individuals who feel it is their place to educate the rest of us. You know who you are.
Oh, no!! Did I say that out loud? Man am I going to hear it now.
Actually, total self awareness is a rare thing. You should post a list.
Wow! Someone was paying attention.
I sense a trap. DANGER!! DANGER!!
I'm not going to post a list, but we all know whom the preeminent dart throwers are. Just look through the threads and you will see mud slinging trends and tendencies. My message is directed at that vocal minority. If you do not engage in these ugly displays.... I salute you!
-
Whoa. Okay. First, let's not presume to understand the original posters situation, or anyone else's for that matter. Second, disagree all you want but treat others with respect.
Man I can't stand when forum posters take the moral high ground. Almost as much as I can't stand forum posters being disrespectful.
The forum is no place for common courtesy and respectful discourse. The forum is dominated by narrow-minded individuals who feel it is their place to educate the rest of us. You know who you are.
Oh, no!! Did I say that out loud? Man am I going to hear it now.
-
Lurking is far less dangerous than trying to engage in a good portion of the strings. I see a lot of angry, little, self absorbed, and self righteous individuals trying to throw their self perceived influence around. It is such a turn off and I'd rather just stick to the local forums. It's quite sad since geocaching is intended to bring people together. I guess it's human nature to try to bring conflict and problem solving into any equation in order to validate ones ego.
-
it's in 2 pictures because the desk is so big
I've stitched your two pics and brightened it slightly for a better view.
Jamie
Where is your DM Guide and your Unearthed Arcana?
-
Isn’t it fascinating how the "score" and "numbers" mean nothing in this thread, but mention people logging temp caches at an event and everything changes. All civility and acceptance goes out the window, people rush to judgment, and condemn without the bat of an eye. Some seem to be "puritans" on some issues and fanatics on other issues that are just as meaningful/meaningless. We cachers sure are a fickle bunch.
I visited a cache 150 miles from home only to find the entire area crawling with muggles. I could see the cache but there was no way to get the cache without drawing far too much attention to my activities. Climbing the sides of a DNR shelter/display area may have looked odd to some. I posted a DNF and explained that I would be back in a few weeks to make the formal find. During my absence, 4 or 5 other teams posted finds. A few weeks later, I returned to make the find. I visited the cache at night and used a ladder to grab the cache. I opened the container and discovered only the FTF log and the log of the person who found it immediately before me.
The find logs of the other "finders" would lead anyone to think they actually signed the log. This was a 4 star physical difficulty cache, and the owner intended this to be a tough find. I pointed out my observance in my find log and the owner has removed the log all together. Now you need to obtain a password from the cache and you must e-mail the owner to verify that you actually found the cache. With that said; there has been a few times that I've logged finds without signing the log. One cache was up in a tree and I had just torn my rotator cuff in my right shoulder and strained the ulnar nerve in my left elbow. I was not about to climb the tree and I would have been happy to make a return trip. I ran into the cache owner later that afternoon and told him of my intention to revisit the cache. He told me to log it as a find and we both had a good laugh. I explained my actions in my log and nobody had a problem. I felt guilty about it and I eventually made a trip back to sign the log after my injuries had healed. I was relatively new at the time and I don't think I'd do it again. I would challenge anyone to pass judgement on my actions.
I've also logged finds on muggled caches where the logs were missing. The cache was still there, in some form, but the log was missing. I posted my find and notified the owner of the cache's condition. Nobody had any issues with those either. I have learned to carry extra paper on my person to sign and add to the cache in these situations.
I've discovered caches that had been destroyed by lawn mowers and the logs and containers were in pieces. I picked up the pieces, placed them in ziplock baggies, and re-hid the remains. I posted my finds and notified the owners of my discoveries. Nobody had any problems with those either.
If you've never hiked three miles to a cache only to discover that you have nothing to write with or your pen does not work, then you have not been caching long enough. I've had pens freeze up on me while caching under dangerous and quite severe winter conditions. A stick or a leaf in the log book was the only proof I had to show I visited the cache. Nobody had any problems with what I left as proof of my visit.
There may be any number of reasons why people don't sign a log. We all know who are the honest cachers and we know who the suspect cachers are in our respective caching communities.
Either it is about the numbers or it is not about the numbers. I like to think it isn't about the numbers and the numbers only have meaning to me but I know that is not the case. I've seen viscous attacks against the established practices of cachers by those who think they are the "global caching police."
We all get carried away at times and we've all done things we are not proud of. This is only a game. There are no prizes and there is no end to the game. Play the game the way you want to play it. Try not to impose your sense of morality too liberally and just try to have fun. Forming new and lasting friendships will be the reward those who play fairly. Isn't that what it's all about?
Now I can sit back and watch the "caching police" attack me for this post. I gues that is what they think caching is all about.
-
I too have personally seen caches hidden on or under electrical boxes. Fake electrical boxes near power junctions. Caches hidden in holes drilled in support beams/sign posts. Caches with official looking, but very fake, warnings on them. Caches with official looking, but also very fake, governnment anti-tamper warnings complete with official looking seals, fake legal citations, and fake penalties. A Cache hidden on a grade school property with no advisory for cachers to stay away during school hours. Shall I go on?
Many cachers either have no common sense or chose to ignore what little they have. They get too caught up in trying to "one up" each other and some people just do not possess the ability to know when too much is too much.
I'm almost positive that I could go to any mid to large-sized metro area in the country and find these types of ill-advised caches without much difficulty.
The questions is wether there is anything that can be done about the problem??? Who will police these types of issues? Do we want to start "snitching" on each other?
-
Welcome to caching Vicki!!!
I live north of the border, in the Milwaukee area, and aside from the current cold spell, the weather has not been that much of a "cache bar." Just dress for the conditions and have fun. I cached for about 1 1/2 hours today in -1F to +1F weather. I wore many layers and stayed relatively warm. The key is to keep moving.
I've only been caching, seriously, since early early September and it has become a real passion. I've met many interesting people and I've seen tooooo many neat and unique places to mention. Caching has replaced some unhealthy lifestyle habits and the benefits of hiking have greatly improved my overall health.
The easiest way to start caching is to start caching. Just print out some cache postings, load up or download your waypoints, and head out. It's not about the find...It's all about getting there, seeing things along the way, and meeting people as you go.
Have fun and enjoy your new GPSr!!!
Matt
-
So you're saying that everyone to find the cache after you is a loser. Well isn't that nice. In some sports, they would call an unsportsman like play penalty regardless of your messages intent.
I'm not against good spirited taunting and joking but I think you might want to rethink your approach before someone takes it personally.
Some might consider this to be a form of stat padding. The BoB series in Chicago was similar. .10 miles between magnetic caches on signs. Real challenging. I'd run down to Chicago to do them, but most have been muggled and archived.
Double logging and geo-ethics
in General geocaching topics
Posted · Edited by 3 Hawks
I did not attend the WGA Campout, but it was a 3 day event. Many people cached all day log for 3 days and two nights to get up to the referenced 68. It is not that many when put in it's proper perspective.
There were injuries, poison ivy exposure, and many DNF's.
Look at them as "bonus" finds. Bonus finds seem OK to most people.