cezanne

Definitely not. For example, Grokky Grokson (from Belgium) has passed the 1000 barrier a while ago. Blinky Bill from Germany is also close to the 1000 limit. There might be others - I do not care. I am just aware of the two examples above because I have a look at the German geocaching statistics once in a while. (The German statistics lists all cachers that have found at least 5 caches in Germany and ranks them according to their total number of finds.) Cezanne

I agree with your suggestion that it suffices in most cases to provide an English description of the goals of a TB. Typicall someone who cannot understand English, will leave a TB in the cache. As your claims regarding the foreign language proficiency of people from Europe are regarded, I'd like to point out that what you write is far from reality in many European countries. This issue is not directly connected to the original posting, but I do not think that it is a good idea to praise Europe in a way that it does not deserve. It is true that the knowledge of at least one foreign language is much more common in Europe than, for example, in the US or in China (I am excluding Hong Kong), but please be more careful when making statements like the one where you claim that 3 foreign languages are taught in school in Europe. The number of Europeans that learnt 3 foreign languages at school, is very small compared to the overall population. This is even true if you restrict your attention to people who are attending some kind of high school. It is not necessary to take countries like France as example which are special cases. Take for example the country in which you live. Quite a high number of people with university education in Austria speak only one foreign language, namely English (I am not counting Latin). Moreover, there are countries where a certain language is taught at school for some years, but what the level of proficiency that remains some years after the attendance of school is incredibly low (typically it does not even suffice for the simplest tasks). There are certainly countries in Europe where the percentage of people being able to understand reasonably well at least two foreign languages is relatively high (for example, Scandinavia, the Netherlands, to some extent also some of the countries in (South)-East-Europe) when compared to other European countries, but even in those countries your statements are exxagerated when applied to the whole population of the respective country (i.e., not excluding people with a low level of education). I know many countries in Europe where it is hardly possible to achieve even basic tasks like buying a bus ticket, ordering a special dish etc by using English and not using some kind of nonverbal communication. To avoid misunderstandings, I should add that I certainly know people that speak 3 or 4 languages and understand at least 2 additional ones, but the number of people being able to understand 6 languages is a small regardless of which European country you take as example. (When I use the terms speaking/understanding a language, I am thinking of at least some basic level of proficiency, not just understanding a few words.) Cezanne

I fully agree with Divine and thank him for taking the effort for reposting this issue here Cezanne

No, I do not want to press a button to obtain a translation. I wish to provide several language versions myself and would like to avoid that everyone has to download, view, print and possibly store all language versions although he needs only one. Have for example a look at the cache Sveti Duh by Gert. It is a very nice idea to offer that cache also in Slovenian as it is located half in Slovenia and half in Austria, but it would be more convenient for almost all cachers just to choose one of the three languages offered and go ahead with a description which has only about one third of the length it is has at the moment. If you look at my multi-caches (which typically have a quite long description), you might also agree that it would be nice to be able to choose whether someone would like to view my German or my English version. Did I finally succeed in explaining the point? I did not expect this task to be that hard. Cezanne

First, you have chosen my only cache which is a single stage one, but even for that cache I doubt that you will be able to find the cache without understanding the text (you can of course cheat because the cache has an English version). The reason why someone not understanding the language will have problems is the following: The coordinates are not the coordinates of the cache which is however close by. No puzzle needs to be solved, but you have to proceed in a certain way from the given coordinates (where the reception is acceptable) to the hiding location (where the reception is bad). It would not have made any sense to classify that cache is a multi-cache. I agree that there are single stage caches that can be found without understanding the language (I have found one myself), but even that can be hard in some cases (for example, I know caches where the chances to find it without using the hint are almost zero). Cezanne

It appears that you did not get at all my point. I was not talking about a translation software, but about providing a simple form of support for cachers who speak more than one language and would like to provide a multilingual version of their caches. It would be very easy to provide such a support since it is only required that there are separate forms where the cachers can fill in their language versions. There would be almost no increase as the storage requirements are concerned and the bandwidth consumption would even decrease since each cacher would view (and certainly print) only the language version he is interested into. At present all language versions have to be combined in a single form and everyone is forced to download, view and print all language versions which can be quite an overhead for long and complex caches descriptions. As your suggestion of Babelfish is regarded: First, it works only for some language pairs, and second it typically produces garbarge. Automatic translation might be a rough help in some cases, but typically the result does not suffice to find a cache. Cezanne

I guess you misunderstood something. The idea behind asking for a better support for multilingual cache descriptions has nothing to do with putting up any kind of requirements or with poiltical correctness. The idea is to make life easier for cachers who are able and willing to offer their cache descriptions in several languages. With the current situation some cachers hesitate to add more languages because the cache descriptions become long and hard to read. In the Netherlands, there are for example quite a number of cachers available only in Dutch although the cache owners are fluent in English and often als in German. There would certainly exist more caches with bilingual or trilingual descriptions if there existed a possibility for separating the language versions and displaying them separately. I am offering all my caches in English and German because not all my fellow cachers use English every day (my cache descriptions are typically long and complex). I do not like to double the length of my cache descriptions, but currently there is unfortunately no other way. The problem seems to be that geocaching is dominated by people from countries in which English is the native language. For cachers in continental Europe where there are many different languages and many cachers that speak at least two languages, there exist other needs than, for example, in North America. I do not understand who will have any disadvantage if some cachers offer their caches in several languages (in particular, in English if the language of the country is not English). If you do not know German, you would have almost no chance to find any of my caches only with the German version. Translation programs like babelfish just lead to garbage. Many of the caches I found in Denmark, I could not have found without an English version. And with Hungarian or Finnish caches, I would even give up remembering their names for longer than a few minutes ..... Cezanne

That would certainly be the nicest solution, but so far neither someone at gc.com nor at nc.com showed interest to establish such a possibility. There might be a small chance that thisn feature will be offered within the opencaching project, but there was less enthusiasm there than I had hoped to in advance. That's not true. There is a limit only for the length of the hint section and for the length of the log entries (which I do not like at all). There is no limit for the length of the cache description and complex multicaches are well possible. Have a look at my caches or, for example, at the cache Sveti Duh by Gert which is offered in even 3 languages. But who wants to decipher the hint in 3 languages? By enclosing some text into [ ..] it will stay unencrypted. So write [E:] to start the English hint etc We are routinely doing that in Austria where the majority of the caches is described in both English and German, the next largest group are those described only in English and only a very small portion is described only in German. If am able to set up html pages, but I do not wish to offer my caches at a private site. All available language versions should be offered via the cache data base. I am not so sure, and in particular it will not be a big issue in Europe (Scandinavia, The Netherlands etc). I have not looked into the sorting issue, but that does not seem that important to me. Even now many cache names contains German umlauts, French accents etc. Moreover, the idea behind offering a multilingual support is that more people offer also an English description. So the problem with special characters was there before. Adding English text will not cause any additional problems. The computers do not need to be multilingual to achieve that more cachers add English cache descripitions. Cezanne

Yes, I was aware of that. I cannot understand why bilingual descriptions offered by those who are able to do so make things more difficult to newbies. It just takes more time to write in two or even more languages. I am not in favour of using English exclusively! That percentage is still low when compared to many other countries in which more cache descriptions are offered in English in addition to the national language. I had never in mind to propose that Dutch caches should not have a Dutch description. If there are Dutch cachers who are not able to offer an English version of their caches, this is fine with me. My suggestion was just that those who are able to write in English, should offer a English version along with the Dutch one. I do not understand why an additional English description can pose any sort of problem to a German geocacher. Moreover, I know quite a number of people who have been raised up in East Germany. Only some of them know no English at all - others had to learn English anyway (for example, for scientists it was quite natural to be able read English even before the fall of the iron curtain). Moreover, if there are Dutch geocachers who wish to offer an additional service to the German visitors, nobody keeps them from offering also a German version. There is a cache at the border of Austria and Slovenia (not too far from my home town) that is offered in German, English and Slovenian. That might well be true, but it has to be taken into account that the overall number of geocachers in the Netherlands is much larger than in many other countries where geocaching is not yet that well-known. In my local area a cache with 10 visitors is already a quite well-visited cache. There are not that many cachers in Austria. So it comes as no surprise to me that the majority of visitors to Dutch caches comes from the Netherlands. But the Dutch cachers are certainly not having any disadvantage if an additional English version is offered. Personally, I do not like at all typical tourist places. So when I go for caches abroad, it happens most of the time when I am attending a conference, visiting a university etc. I prefer to go for caches that are in areas full of tourists. When I visited Copenhagen this summer, I was very happy that only a single cache I came across in the greater Copenhagen area was not available in English. At some of the caches I found there, I was also the first foreign visitor. As a cache owner one can never know in advance who wishes to do a cache somewhen in the future. Let me add that I have come across complaints about the many Dutch-only caches in the Netherlands. I would not like to go caching in the Netherlands. It is much too tiresome for me to guess the meaning of the descriptions. I am aware of this problem, but this problem exists also outside of geocaching. I addressed specifically the situation in the Netherlands. Not necessarily. This is more a psychological and politic issue than a really an issue of languages. But that is the case also outside of the world of geocaching. If you get on a train from the centre of Brussels to the airport, then the French announcements will immediately stop after having crossed the region where Dutch and French have to be used by law. Similarly, it is often more meaningful to use English in a shop in the Flemish are (say in Antwerp) than French. The same is true for using Dutch in the French-speaking part. I observed that very often the people have no problem at all with understanding the other language, but they just do not want to use it (for several reasons - I do not want to enter this discussion now). From my point of view, it would suffice to use one's native language and English, but if someone wishes to offer additional language versions, this is certainly fine. If someone chooses to use only Dutch and French, this is still an advantage over a Dutch-only version since much more people are able to read French than Dutch. I can hardly imagine any Belgian geocacher who only understand German and no other language. Keep in mind that I am not talking about political issues. I like the fact that we have many different languages around the world. I am not in favour of forcing everyone to use English. But it is clear that no one can learn the languages of all the countries he/she might visit during his/her life-time for possibly a few days. For such situations English is the most suitable means of communication. As the distribution of caches in Belgium is regarded, I also think that geocaching has not yet become sufficiently known in the French-speaking world. Have a look at the small number of caches in France, many of which have been places by tourists. It just would require a number of enthusiastic cachers in Southern Belgium to increase the number of caches there. About one year ago the number of caches in Austria was very small (although there exists only one official language in the country), now we have more than 250. Cezanne

It is not that convenient having to ask the cache owners if one is not sure in the preparation phase how many and which caches one will be able to do. I do not feel comfortable asking for the translation of say 30 caches and then ending up by perhaps doing 5 of them. Since the Netherlands belong to those country in the world where the level of knowledge of English is the highest among countries where English is not an official language, I do not understand at all why it is so common in the Netherlands to offer the cache descriptions only in Dutch. Many of the cachers doing so, are quite well able to write in English and nobody asks for a perfect English version. (Grammar mistakes and a poor vocabulary do not matter that much - even a short English version containing mistakes can be very helpful for foreigners.) There is another drawback of the solutions you suggest: In both cases (ask the cache owner for a translation or ask question in the Dutch forum), a much smaller group of geocachers profits than in the case that an English translation is offered on the cache page. Geocaching is an international activity and everyone who is able to write in English, is kindly asked to do so. Cezanne

It seems that there exists an upper limit on the overall length of cache descriptions? How large is this limit? I did not find any place where such a limit is announced. I do not feel that such a limit should exist for several reasons: First, it results in an disadvantage for those who are offering their cache descriptions in two or more languages (the preferable case outside of English speaking countries). Second, it contradicts the statement on the submission form for caches which reads "be as brief or as detailed as you like". Third, I feel that photographs take up much more space than lines of text. So I cannot see any reason for restricting the length of the text of cache descriptions. (Most of the descriptions are short, anyway.) Cezanne

quote:Originally posted by Seneca:Has there been a change in the log length limits? I do not know either - I had, however, similar problems. It would be helpful if at least the following two suggestions could be incorporated: (1) Announce the limit for the length of logs at a place where it can easily be seen (e.g. somewhere on the form which is used for entering logs). (2) Give the loggers an indication how many characters they have to delete or to transfer to another log. Otherwise, it will either be a tiresome trial-and-error process, or one has to count the number of one's log by another software (not a very convenient way in my opinion). I have to admit, however, that I do not understand why this rather tight limit is necessary at all when at the same time people can upload that many pictures. A few lines of text certainly need less space than photographs. Moreover, being forced to split up long logs in two parts does not contribute to saving storage space - it just is annoying for the person who is logging and for the cachers reading the cache page. Another reason why I do not like the limit on the length of log entries is that it clearly results in a disatvantage to those who wish to offer some parts of their log in more than one language. Cezanne.

There seem to exist still further strange effects with html cache descriptions. Have a look at the following cache http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=dc11eb47-0f24-4224-b169-59bd272e0db8 When I view it with Netscape 4.7x it displays correctly (apart from the fact that owner had to replace the less than sign by text), but when I use Mozilla 1.x or Netscape 7.x the text of the description stops at Stage 4 and displays only a couple of horizontal lines instead of the remaining part of the text. When I copy the html code into a file and load it into the browser versions mentioned above, the full cache description until the very end is displayed. The above mentioned cache is not my cache, but the owner asked me for help regarding a minor issue in the formulation of the task to be solved at one of the stages. That's why I had a look at the cache. Maybe someone could check if he/she observes the same strange behaviour. Does anyone have an idea why the problem arises? (I have to admit that I do not have the time to check the code in detail and I did not follow the changes at gc.com in detail.) I would be very happy if we could get back to rather stable system where it was possible to submit html code that worked in the way it works on standard browsers. (I am not talking about scripts and other commands that cause security problems!) Cezanne

quote:Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:The less than sign is the standard HTML marker to begin a command. I am certainly aware of this triviality. Since I am editing my html files myself with a text editor, there is no way to be unaware of the effect of typing the < sign. quote:It is the same way on every HTML page, not just here at geocaching.com. As another poster has already written you misunderstood the nature of my complaint. I am using html successfully since many years and I perfectly know how a less than and a larger than sign are generated in html (this is quite a natural thing for a mathematician). gc.com is the first website I have ever come across which causes problems with these signs. quote:Blame it on the people that invented HTML as Geocaching had nothing to do with you being unable to use that symbol. I guess you will be surprised to learn that until very recently the standard way of displaying these signs did also work on gc.com. If you have a cache owned by you (I have not checked it), make an experiment and try to produce a less than or a larger than sign in the way you suggested to me. I am very eager to be informed in case you succeed. Cezanne

quote:Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy: quote:Originally posted by cezanne:Sorry - this awful form software changed my previous posting. It's not the "awful forum software." It's your browser, of course. That depends on one's personal point of view. My first preference would be a newsgroup. If I am forced to communicate via a forum, my next preference would be a forum where text messages are used (and not html). I like to use html in cache descriptions, but not in the forum. Moreover, please note that the commands that work in the forum and/or in logs are also subject to change (with no proper notification of the users). I feel comfortable with standard html (I am using it without any problems since several years), but I run into problems remembering which commands work in which environment. quote:When you type <, the forum software passes it along unchanged to your browser, which of course interprets it as <. Write < just like you'd write it if you were writing a web page: &lt;. I agree that writing that repeating the amp should have worked, but I have never used this version so far on a web page and I never experienced any problems. (I am preparing all my html files with a text editor and they display perfectly fine with all sorts of browsers.) Since the system here changed so often during the last months, it is impossible to keep track if one does not read all the forum entries all the time. It would be ok for me if there existed a single place where to look for changes. The current situation is annoying for people who do nopt wish to read the forums regularly (most of the topics and discussions have a strong US focus and are not interesting to people from Europe - just have a look at the countries where most posters come from). Cezanne

Note added: Sorry - this awful form software changed my previous posting. I was of course using the html command code for the less than and the greater than sign and not the symbols directly. The forum software, has, however, replaced them and I do not know any way to change this behaviour. So I had to reedit my posting above and insert strange artificial spaces between the symbols of a command.

quote:Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):Unfortunately I have been on personal business with limited access to email. I will review all changes and make them when I return on Friday. I quickly browsed through this extensively long subforum. It does not seem that someone has so far wrote about the subject of symbols like the less than sign <, the greater than sign > etc. Commands like & l t ; - without spaces of course and & g t ; (again without spaces) are standard html commands. They do not work any longer in cache descriptions which is extremely annoying. (These are not the only examples. Also & a m p ; does not work and many others.) One could write "& l t ;" etc - then these symbols show up, but also the quotation marks. I do understand security issues, but it is absolutely inacceptable in my mind to forbid symbols like the less than sign and the greater than sign in cache descriptions. If the situation remains as it is, I will consider to refrain from using gc.com any longer since as a mathematician I am not willing to replace symbols like the ones mentioned above by written text. I would appreciate it very much if the cachers will be notified in advance the next time such dramatic changes are going to happen and if the changes are done in a way that does not have an almost uncountable number of side-effects. With such restrictions setting up caches is not fun any longer. I do not wish to waste my time with finding out all the commands that are missing now, but very helfpul and harmless. Right now I am very frustrated and disappointed about the situation at gc.com. Nevertheless I hope that I managed to stay reasonably polite. Cezanne PS: Please do not ask for an example cache page. I do not have one. I came across the problems while exchanging e-mails with a fellow cacher.

quote:Originally posted by Jeremy:Please provide a link so I can see an example. Here it is: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=59813 (look at the list of items at the bottom of the cache description). The same issue arises for all my other caches except one where I did not use a table. Cezanne

I am wondering why both horizontal and vertical lines in simple tables are not displayed any longer. The html code of my caches seems still to be the same (I checked the table part). The lines have disappeared in all my caches where tables are used. My tables are neither a security risk nor have any tags be removed. I do not understand at all what is going on. Until now I was happy that at least at gc.com cache descriptions done in html have essentially the same look at the site than in my browser (I am using only a very restricted set of commands, no colours etc). Cezanne

Hi, I friend of mine could not access the gc.com website starting from this morning. It seems that the gc firewall was blocking the IP number although neither my friend nor her husband have ever tried to use the gc.com site for anything else than it is designed for (they are not offering any kind of service, are not downloading any sort of data or whatever). I recommended them to contact gc.com, but in any case, I'd like to know whether other people had similar experiences, or whether someone can explain why such annoying things can happen. Is there any way to contact gc.com in such a case that is quicker than writing to the contact address from where one usually gets a reply only after a week? Regards+thanks in advance Cezanne

quote:I don't mind variations. Your original posting made me think otherwise. It was you who asked how it can happen that some caches are rejected while other comparable ones are approved. I provided you with one of the reasons. I do not reply to your other question as I believe that it will lead this thread into a wrong direction. (Just as a comment: I never claimed that someone is approving a cache the description of which he does not understand at all - doing that would be pretty much crazy.) Cezanne

quote:Originally posted by Fobrokel:Yes, all my cache descriptions are bi-lingual. I consider it necessary with respect to the worldwide geocaching actions. I guess that you did misunderstand me. I also regard an English cache description as very important, and all my caches do have one. (I even start with the English version, and kind of translate it then into German.) I also log in English, but got kind of flamed for doing that in Germany. quote:Never heard of "tactical submissions" using just German cache descriptions (but I don't read the forums quite often). This did not happen in a Groundspeak forum. It is not a secret that quite a number of cachers in Germany are not happy with the process of cache approval and in particular do not feel able to argue in English about their caches. quote:Contrary to your opinion, I'd suggest to make English descriptions mandatory, because a cache description even in poor English would be helpful to ALL cachers than none in English. Language barriers, namely English, are disappearing, and I believe there are very few people not having at least a friend or relative with some English knowledge, who could len a helping hand. Let me rephrase my opinion differently. Personally, I have a strong preference for English. I travel a lot, and also make short time visits to countries the languages of which I do not speak at all. For that reason, I am even glad to encounter English logs (to be precise, it helps me if there exists at least one log in English - I do not mind if there are also logs in other languages). I was recently in Denmark and appreciated a lot that all caches I did there, except one had an English description. Unfortunately, the situation in Germany differs considerably from the situation in Scandinavia or the Netherlands. In the Eastern part of Germany, there are quite some cachers who have never studied English at school. Moreover, English is hardly present on TV in Germany. There are many cachers who even have troubles in reading English. Writing English is even much harder for them. quote:The basic problem, at least in my perception, is not language, but the regulatory inconsistenca. I do not agree as there are a large number of caches in Germany which clearly violate the rules, but this went unrecognized due to language issues. It is also interesting to note that in certain regions of Germany caches which would be classified as micros nearly everywhere else are classified as regular caches. Cezanne.

quote:Originally posted by cezanne: quote:Originally posted by Fobrokel:This is NOT to complain about my new virt being archived, but to encourage the approvers to apply the tightened approval rules consistently. I support the "back to the roots" issue. But if they correctly reject a new cache, the rules should apply to ALL new caches of the same kind. Fobrokel I am not an approver, but as I know the situation in Germany reasonably well, I'd like to ask you a question. I guess that you did offer an English version of your cache description, didn't you? I noticed that in Germany there are quite a number of caches which are described only in German and which most likely would not have been approved if they had included an English version as well. It seems that I am not the only one who made that observation. I even came across postings in German geocaching forums that encouraged the cachers to offer only German descriptions since this might help in the approval process. To avoid misunderstandings, let me add that I am not at all in favour of making an English version compulsory as there are quite a number of cachers who do not speak English or whose knowledge of English is too poor. The choice of the offered languages should, however, not be influenced by the cache approval process. Part of the reason for the inconsistencies which certainly exist in Germany is the fact that there are no cache approvers who are native speakers of German. Cezanne

quote:Originally posted by Fobrokel:This is NOT to complain about my new virt being archived, but to encourage the approvers to apply the tightened approval rules consistently. I support the "back to the roots" issue. But if they correctly reject a new cache, the rules should apply to ALL new caches of the same kind. Fobrokel I am not an approver, but as I know the situation in Germany reasonably well, I'd like to ask you a question. I guess that you did offer an English version of your cache description. I noticed that in Germany there are quite a number of caches which are described only in German and which most likely would not have been approved if they had included an English version as well. It seems that I am not the only one who made that observation. I even came across postings in German geocaching forums that encouraged the cachers to offer only German descriptions since this might help in the approval process. To avoid misunderstandings, let me add that I am not at all in favour of making an English version compulsory as there are quite a number of cachers who do not speak English or whose knowledge of English is too poor. The choice of the offered languages should, however, not be influenced by the cache approval process. Part of the reason for the inconsistencies which certainly exist in Germany is the fact that there are no cache approvers who are native speakers of German. Cezanne

quote:Originally posted by bigeddy:..... there are many ways the quality of traditional caches can be addressed during approval: That's only true as far as more or less formal aspects are regarded. Most of the bad caches I came across are not that easily recognizable, in particular not for an approver who very often even comes from a different country. quote:Area is not restricted. Not so easy to check, but a typical example of an issue which is mainly relevant in countries like the US. quote:Rating fits the description and location. Container is appropriate to the area. How will it ever be possible for an approver to decide this? One needs to know an area quite well to be able to do what you are asking for. quote:Special requirements are clearly noted. How should an approver check this at the time of approval? quote:Adequate grammar and spelling indicate attention to detail. HTML code is used properly. Most cachers I know do not use html code. Many cachers offer their cache descriptions in foreign languages. Most English cache descriptions outside the English speaking countries contain mistakes, however, there is no correlation at all to the quality of the caches. This remains even true if restricted to cache descriptions written in the native language of the cache owner. There is another problem with your suggestion: There are many countries for which there are no approvers who are native speakers of the language of those countries. Often it is not even easy for the approvers to fully understand the descriptions written in foreign languages, but it will certainly be impossible for most of them to spot spelling mistakes or subtle grammar mistakes. (In languages like German and French, for example, it is not uncommon to find spelling or grammar mistakes even in quality newspapers.) quote: The approvers are, by and large, doing a good job but the approval system could be easier to use and more consistent. I agree that the approval process suffers at the moment from quite a number of inconsistencies. I do not believe, however, that such a system would be easy to create. Moreover, I feel that the more rules one introduces, the more difficult it will become to take into account the differences between different countries and caching regions. Already now tools like the rating system and some of the rules used in the approval process are trimmed to the situation in Northern America which differs in some aspects quite considerably from Europe, Africa or whatever .... Cezanne.