cezanne

The formulation "seeing it in the cache" was not meant that literally. Since there are not that many caches in Austria, and even less TBs, it is not that uncommon that cachers notice in advance that a TB is waiting in a certain cache and check in advance its goals. For example, I am always doing that in order to know in advance the TB's goal. I do not like to take out a TB whom I cannot help. Moreover, many Austrian cachers follow the recent cache logs in the country and easily come across this TB in a virtual way. (We typically have less than 250 found logs in a month over the whole country, and considerably less in months with cold weather.) That's why I think that the figurine and the TB's description form a kind of unity if the degree of offense is concerned. Cezanne

To be fair the figurine is a Werrmacht soldier, not an SS or Nazi soldier. Werrmacht could be anyone from Germans not up to SS "standards" to captured Russians, Mongolians, or Koreans stuffed into a uniform and sent to fight Americans with the threat of being shot by an NCO if they didn't. It's Wehrmacht not Werrmacht, but that's just a minor issue. (Wehr means military forces in this context.) The topic here is not about the figurine, but about the background which is given in the TB's description. The owner of the TB is mentioning the Waffen SS himself. Moreover, he mentions the medical camp in Graz. The story behind this TB is not about a soldier from the Wehrmacht who "simply" fought for his country. Cezanne

1) remove the TB from the cache. 2) attempt to contact the owner of the bug and resolve the issue. 3) If you are unable to contact the bug owner or unable to resolve the issue between yourselves, contact you local approver or Groundspeak.com BS has contact the cache owner, gc.com and Erik (the main approver for Europe - we do not have a local one). Only Erik has so far responded, and his suggestion was to change the item attached to the bug (replace the soldier by something else), but no one at the Austrian geocaching forum was happy with that suggestion. The message of the TB remains the same. The action of BS to put the TB temporarily into a TB graveyard is only a virtual one - as someone else mentioned already a TB can easily transfered from the graveyard to any other place if the owner is responding and has a better suggestion. I guess that when you made your suggestion 1) you forgot that BS would not feel comfortable with having the TB in his inventory. But what else can he do if he removes it from his cache, and is not putting it at some intermediary place? Did anyone say that such a solution cannot work out? The suggestion for having an option for archival of a TB, is only for cases where the TB owner shows no reaction or no cooperation at all. I prefer clean procedures. An archival procedure would be nicer in such an ultimate case than considering a TB as "abandoned". Me neither. But exactly for that reason I'd welcome that gc.com introduces the feature to archive a TB. (Of course, not the users of gc.com should be able to archive TBs of other people, only admins of gc.com, and only in very specific cases.) But you suggested almost the same. The graveyard is not a real place. It is just a place to put the TB until gc.com or the owner respond (if this will ever be the case) to avoid leaving the TB in the cache or having it in one's own inventory. Cezanne

What you seem to ignore constantly is that the cachers in the region where BS's cache is located have a much more close relationship to what has happened in the past than most people at the other side of the world. I was not accusing you of not knowing what happened during the Nazi time, I was just asking a specific question about the medical camp in Graz which is not well known. It is, however, not that easy for me to understand that you apparently think that there are cachers in the region who would like to move the Divided Family 2 TB forward. So, the issue is not about taking a TB out of circulation. One of the previous posters has formulated the dilemma much nicer than I can do it. English is not my native language and I cannot deal with the issue in an emotionless manner. It is too closely connected to the history of my home country and home town. If you prefer to talk about the present, please let us know which solution you would suggest. Cezanne

Unfortunately, that's not a given. That's the problem. You are certainly wrong. I am curious whether you have any knowledge about the medical experiments of the Nazi regime. Is, for example, the name Mengele known to you? (Your example about burning books makes me believe that your knowledge in this area is somewhat restricted.) Do you really think that anybody who actively took part in such medical experiments did not know what he was doing? What message does it convey to you if someone is wishing to send a TB in 2004 to the "medical camp in Graz"? This formulation is much stronger than if the goal would just be to to visit Graz because the uncle has passed some time in that city. (The offense by sending a SS soldier figurine would, however, remain even in that more "harmless" version.) I cannot believe that anyone is considering taking part in the medical experiments of the Nazi regime as serving one's country! We are not simply talking about being a soldier and taking part in a war. Using a goal like the medical camp in Graz (NB: this is not a place which still exists!) contradicts what you claim above. Please stop your accusations. BS did not write anything about what he will do with the physical TB. So far he just moved it to a TB graveyard because he does not want to have it in his cache and cannot put it to any other cache in his caching region. There is no act of hatred involved at all. BS already wrote that he contacted the owner. If the owner chooses to show no reaction, what do you suggest? It is quite suprising for me that you seem to know people in what you refer to "that region". I am Austrian and I have not come across more than a handful of people who fit to your description. BS certainly does not belong to that small group. This thread shows me once again that it makes no sense to discuss topics that are not exclusively US-topics in this forum. The number of postings which really address the issue and which try to view the topic from a broader view is unfortunately very small in most cases. (Like BS, I was very happy to read Anne's posting in this thread. Not because she shares the political concerns, but because she really dealt with the issue and was not talking about other things.) Cezanne

Be assured that anyone in the region where BS could deposit the bug in another cache will be very offended by this TB. Anyone in the area of Graz, one of the subgoals of the TB, will even be more offended to find the TB in his/her cache. (I guess that I can judge this better than you can as I am from this region and own several caches there.) What do you suggest if the owner is not responding (that would allow to send it back to him if he is willing to pay the expenses)? Putting the TB into another cache in the area, is certainly a very bad idea. Have you ever heard of NIMBY? (Not in my backyard) This is never a good approach. See above. If Bs does not take any action, the offensive TB will stay in his cache for all times. Cezanne

There is nothing wrong with taking personal responsibility, but I feel (and you seem to agree on that point) that there should exist a procedure to deal with cases where either no agreement can be reached or where someone comes across a clearly offensive object (cache, TB) without being personally directly involved. (Take, for example, the case that a cacher comes across the Divided Family 2 TB in a cache of another cacher.) In my opinion, a TB as offensive as Divided Family 2 is not just a matter of concern for a few cachers who feel offended, but also for the web site which hosts the description of the TB. Consequently, there exists a responsibility of the gc.com site, regardless of personal responsabilities. My personal experience is that agreements are very hard to reach in cases like the present one. One might, however, still give it a try. Cezanne

If I wrote in French, I would believe that the fact that you completely misread what I wrote is due to my bad French. Since I wrote in English and I am used to argue in English (though not about politics), I guess that you apparently made some assumptions based on no evidence at all. I suggest that you read again what I have written. Where did I talk about destroying something? I simply argued that the TB's mission is offensive. If gc.com offers a possibility that TBs get archived (by gc.com, not by individual cachers!), this cannot be regarded as act of destruction, can it? You seem to know me quite well for someone who has never had any contact with me .... Let me ask again: Where did I argue in favour of the destruction of other people's property? Cezanne

It just occured to me that probably at least some of the posters here have overlooked a major issue. The key point is not that the owner of the TB tells a story about his family, but the mission of the TB. The owner of the TB cannot be that naive that he does not know the meaning of terms like "medical camp Graz". I cannot imagine a single cacher from Austria who would not feel offended by such a TB in his/her cache. Such TBs are certainly worse than if someone would, for example, send around some pornographic material as a TB. I am sure that gc.com would not tolerate the latter. As gc.com does not even tolerate that cachers are making announcements of harmless service sites for geocachers on the forum, I cannot understand at all that there is no option to archive a TB (if there are good reasons for doing so). Cezanne

Well, first I planned to avoid becoming involved in this discussion, but your response to the original poster made me really very angry. It is up to you whether or not you agree with the way he plans to proceed with the TB. I have to admit that I do not feel very comfortable with burying the TB, but only for the reason that it would lead to chaotical situations if everyone who does not like the mission of a TB, feels free to put an end to the TB. As the "Divide Family 2" TB is regarded, the background is really a serious one. I suggest that you first have a look into history books and investigate about the background of the places which are referred to in the TB's description before you take the right to call someone intolerant whom you do not know at all. Further, I am wondering why everyone here (except the OP) is only writing about Germany (or Eastern-Europe). The TB is currently in Austria and the places Döllersheim and Graz are located in Austria, as well. Can't you imagine that the TB is indeed very offending to Austrians (at least those with a sufficient awareness of history)? Personally, I would very much like to see an response of the officials of gc.com. In my opinion the option to archive a TB which is clearly offending is strongly needed. Of course, before such an archival, it should be obligatory to contact the owner. However, I feel that contacting the owner in such a case is the job of gc.com and not of individual cachers. Cezanne

I agree that Erik usually replies quickly and is doing his best to offer his advice, but he certainly belongs to the approvers who are very strict about approving vacation caches. There are quite a number of vacation caches on the Canary Islands, but since Erik is involved in the approval of the caches in this area, it is even required to have a local person for "maintenance" in the case of virtual caches. Among the arguments brought forward against virtual vacation caches are the following: It might, for example, happen that some part of a hiking path becomes inaccessible or dangerous, that a sign disappears etc. I am aware of the fact that Erik and his colleagues only execute the set of "rules" for vacation caches and that his personal opinion does not always match completely with the general rules as special cases are regarded. Nevertheless, I do not agree with such types of arguments against virtual vacation caches. Arguing along the same lines, no one could write and sell hiking guides. At least in Europe, it goes without saying that it is the personal responsibility of the person who uses a guide book to make his/her own decisions. Let's look an example: Why is it worse if a signpost turns out to be missing which is said to exist in a cache description than if the same happens for a signpost mentioned in a guide book? The same type of question can be asked for a path which was accessible to the public at former times and is closed later on. Most people will regard the idea of banning guide books written by authors who do not live very close to the region they write about as being a ridiculous one. Paradoxically, it is usually much easier to contact a cache owner than the author of a guide book in case of any type of problems. It seems to me that all countries have to suffer from the fact that the legal systems of some countries like the US do not put a high value on the personal responsibility of human beings (to put it in a moderate way). NB: I dot not wish to start a discussion on the merit of virtual caches! I am taking about such virtual caches that satisfy all the current rules of gc.com and that are approved without any problems if they are placed by locals, or by people on vacation if they can come up with a local contact person. Cezanne

I am not sure whether my main question fits into this thread, but I could not find another one which seems more suitable. Maybe the issue of the new upper limit on the length of the watch list of non members has been brought up somewhere else. A quick search did not bring up any result, and I neither have the time nor the ambition to read the great number of postings I am not interested at all. I do not like the new my cache page at all, but that it not that surprising as unlike the majority of the people here I prefer a simple design to a stylish one. Let me come back to my main point: It seems that the upper limit on the length of the watch list has been decreased from 100 down to 50. Apparently entries above the limit of 50 have not yet been deleted, but one cannot add further entries without deleting entries until one arrives below the 50 limit. It is perfectly acceptable for me that non members are offered only a restricted access. In my opinion, it would, however, been much more polite and less-frustrating to communicate such changes at a place where everyone can view them quickly (without having to search through hundreds of postings dealing with other issues). I would greatly appreciate an area for information on major changes which is even accessible for those who are not logged in (I am tired of logging in just for reading some information, in particular because I never manage to stay logged-in for more than 30 minutes) and where replies are not allowed. This way the area would stay in a state which makes it attractive also for those who wish to learn about important changes quickly without being bothered by the tons of postings containing the personal opinions of the forum posters. Moreover, it would have certainly been nice to be informed somewhat in advance about the upcoming change of the limit. I had added some caches to my watch list simply because I knew that I was far off the upper limit of 100. Cezanne

It ist not necessarily better, however, to check that option. The mails sent via gc.com have a very annoying property when the sender transmits his e-mail address. The sender data is not appropriately configured to account for the fact that the address in the from field typically belongs to another domain than the gc.com server which sends out the mails. These contradictory data cause annoying effects. Such contradictory mails are blocked by many spam filters. Even worse, in many cases sending mail via gc.com to cachers who use such spam filters will disclose their e-mail addresses (in error messages). Apparently not many cachers are aware of the problems caused by the rather clumsy approach of gc.com as sending out mails is regarded. Cezanne

Je suis assez etonnée d'apprendre qu'il y a des cacheurs qui ne sont besoin de caches pour faire du geocaching. Cezanne

I agree with the first statement. However, some of these cachers do not appreciate location-less caches (this applies for example to myself). Some other caches from the Graz area that might be interested, usually do not read the gc.com fora. If you are still interested in the Graz alternative, do not hesitate to write me a PM, then I will suggest the names of some cachers in Graz that might be able to help you and that are hard to reach via a posting in a forum regardless of which one. Regards Cezann

But that definitely is only true for caches with a very simple description. (Perhaps most caches in your region are of that type, I do not know) For more complex caches, however, there is no chance at all, not even for very frequent language pairs where the two involved languages are sufficiently close to each other. Have you ever tried to apply online translators to more complex cache pages in cases where you could judge whether what you guessed is sufficiently close to reality to allow you to find all the data to obtain the final coordinates of the cache? But there does neither exist an area for French speaking cachers nor does any of the existing subfora contain a description that explicitly invites and welcomes postings in French. This is exactly the point I tried to make in my posts. There is a difference between "not forbidding" something and "welcoming" and "encouraging" it. Geocaching.com even neglects the fact that Switzerland is not a German speaking country (German is only one of 4 official languages there). For speakers of German, Spanish, the Nordic languages (Swedisch, Finnish etc) there are dedicated places where these people know that postings in their native language are welcome. Nothing of that type exists for native speakers of French. Hopefully, we can now stop to repeat the same arguments over and over again. No new arguments have been added recently. Cezanne PS: Perhaps you want to try to apply an online translator to translate the German version of the cache listed below into English. The cache page also includes a human made English version so you can compare. Be honest when you judge whether you would be able to go along with the output of the online translator. http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...b8-26a32997dcd8 I could list many other caches where the same problem arises (also most of my own caches) - so it is not just a pathological example. I just took the cache above because I like it very much,

I agree that the discussion has gone on long enough, but please note that my intention was not all a politicial one (I do not like political discussions at all). I am neither Canadian nor do I live in Canada. Moreover, my mother tongue is neither English nor French. So I guess that my observation that geocachers who would like to discuss in French on this site are not offered the same chances as those who wish to use e.g. English, German, Spanish or a Nordic language comes without any bias or political background. The topic also extends beyond Canada. Cezanne

First of all, the topic here was not asking gc.com to translate the cache pages! Read my postings above where I wrote that it can never be the responsibility of gc.com to provide the cache pages in several languages. As the language of cache pages is regarded, it would be quite useful, however, if those cache owners who are able to do so write in more than one language if appropriate (English in non-English speaking countries, other official languages in a country with several languages). My main point was that it would be a good idea to offer a place where French-speaking cachers (regardless of where they come from) can discuss about geocaching in French. You are allowed to discuss in your native language. Why should it pose a problem that French-speaking people get the same opportunity? Currently, most of them do not take part at all - so it is not a matter of losing anyone, it is just about making geocaching attractive for a larger group. Second, I guess that only people who do not speak at least two languages fluently and have never tested automatic translation software for more complex texts, believe that automatic translation solves the problem of mono-lingual cache pages. Third (this is only a side issue here as it does not apply to French), there are are many languages for which no widely available translation software is available. Take for example, Hungarian. I'd love to understand the texts in the Hungarian cache data base. Fourth, there are many caches which have a long and complex description. (Multi-caches, puzzle caches etc - in some regions about 60% and more are of those types). I will not comment on this topic any further. All what I wanted to say is already said. However, I would like to point out that my postings cannot be regarded as spam. Those who do not like to read long postings or who are not interested into the role of French in geocaching, are not forced to read what I write. Cezanne

Well, now I got what you mean the cache descriptions when you talk about translating the site. In my opinion, it is the task of the individual cachers and not of gc.com to offer their caches in more than language if the following conditions hold: (i) the cache is located in a country with more than one official language (ii) the country's official language is not English (iii) the cacher has at least some basic knowledge of English (case (ii)) or the remaining official languages of his/her country (case (i)). I am perfectly aware that (iii) puts a serious constraint, but there are quite a number of cachers which so far offer their caches in only one language although (iii) applies to them. I agree that multi-lingual cache descriptions are more important than multi-lingual forums in countries with more than one official language. As mentioned above, I do not feel, however, that offering multi-lingual cache descriptions is the responsibility of gc.com. The situation changes as offering a forum for communicating in French is regarded (given that such possibilities exist for speakers of many other languages). Moreover, do not forget that in countries/regions like France, Wallonia, the French-speaking Switzerland (Swiss Romande) just to name a few, almost all caches are available in French. Nevertheless, hardly any French-speaking cachers participate in the forums. I am convinced that the same would be true for Germany if no German-speaking forum existed (and Germany belongs to one of the most active geocaching countries apart from the English speaking ones). As the specific example of Québec is regarded, it would certainly help if those who can write in English and French, use both languages for cache descriptions, regardless of which of the two is their native language. The development of geocaching in French-speaking parts of the world will certainly not speed up considerably just because a French-speaking forum is introduced. This can only help on the way. The development is slow also in countries where definitely not the language barrier is the problem (my home country can serve as an example). Cezanne

I already post my caches in two languages, but not in French, but just because there is no demand for doing so in Austria. If I lived in Canada, I would certainly offer my caches in English and French (and would omit the German version instead). I never claimed that people who post French are met with hostility. Normally, I do not even follow the Canadian forum. I was just attracted a while ago by a French head line. I sincerely regret that geocaching is not yet more popular in the French speaking part of the world and I am happy about any contribution which attracts speakers of French to this site. I still believe that a line of explanation for the fora of countries with more than official language might be a good idea. It would suffice to state that postings in all official languages are welcome. Cezanne

It seems that you partly misunderstood what I was trying to say. Of course, it would not be feasible to translate the gc.com site into various languages, but I cannot find a single line in my post where I suggested that the gc.com site should be available in other languages than English. It is much easier for most non-native speakers of English to get along with an English user interface, and read/write basic texts than to express their feelings in a foreign language in a satisfactory manner. First, as explained above, I was never asking for a translation of this site. Second, I was not complaining about anything, but just listed some facts (for example, the mis-treatment of Switzerland as German-speaking country) and wrote my personal impression as the lack for a suitable place of communication for French speaking geocachers is regarded. Third, from my point of view one of the nicest properties of geocaching is its potential internationality. Whatever can be easily done to attract the attention and interest of as many cachers to this site instead of to national geocaching sites (bax examples: Hungary, Russia, etc), should be done. Fourth, I believe that it is better to offer a forum for speakers of one of the major languages of this world (French) than to wait until many people ask for such a forum - since this is a kind of vicious circle. Fifth, I was not specifically talking about the Canadian subforum. So even if had a specific request (which is not the case), it would make no sense to contact one of the admins of this subforum. [Moreover, it would be ridiculous if I asked for a French forum since my French is considerably weaker than my English which allows me to express essentially all what I wish to say.] Sixth, let me repeat my main point: I believe that a place on gc.com where people could communicate in French without the need of having something like a bad conscience, i.e., a place where messages in French are *explicitely* welcomed, will help to promote geocaching among native speakers of French. Of course the number of postings will be small at the beginning, but an additional subforum neither costs additional money nor additional time for gc.com (except its creation). I am well able to take part in English discussions, nevertheless I take the liberty to participate in the German speaking forum whenever I wish to do so. The same is true for many Scandinavian cachers which both write in English and in their native language whatever is more appropriate for them at the specific moment. There are many reasons for using one's native language (if different from English), not just a poor level of proficiency in English. [To avoid misunderstandings, I do not advocate monolingual cache descriptions which are offered in a language different from English - this should be avoided whenever possible.] Cezanne

I essentially agree with what you wrote. There is indeed no one-language rule on gc.com. I am neither Canadian nor ismy native language English or French, so I guess that I am not biased as the usage of theses two languages in this subforum is concerned. I have to admit, however, that I feel that cachers whose native language is French are somewhat neglected at this site. I do know that geocaching is not yet popular in the French speaking part of the world, but it is difficult to increase its popularity when almost all stuff is available only in English. I was surprised to note that there does neither exist a subforum for French speaking cachers (there exist such forums for speakers of Spanish and German, for example) nor are the countries where French is spoken represented correctly. Take for example, Switzerland. There are four official languages in Switzerland - French is one of them. Nevertheless, Switzerland is listed under "German speaking", a subforum where the posts are supposed to be in German. The Belgium forum is hardly used as most Belgian cachers are from the Flemish part and discuss in Dutch/Flemish on the Belgian and Dutch sites. I guess that the fact that there are almost no French postings in the Canadian subforum and none in the Belgium one, combined with the non-existence of a French speaking subforum creates the impression that French postings are not very welcome (meaning, they are not forbidden, but not highly appreciated and in particular often neglected). The example of the subforum of the Nordic countries shows that it is indeed possible to allow different languages in one forum. They have, however, a pinned thread where all newcomers are informed that the forum is open to postings in English and in any of the Nordic languages. Moreover, they use to tag postings that are not in English, e.g. [Fin] for Finnish and recently, one of the moderators started to translate the title line of Finnish posts into English. Cezanne

Greek is easier to handle for me than Hungarian . But more seriously, it is really a pity that so many Hungarian caches are available only on the Hungarian site and only in Hungarian. Moreover, a great number of Hungarian caches at gc.com has not been put there by their owners, but by a very active Hungarian cacher. I very much doubt, however, that he is able (finds time) to copy important logs (missing cache, changed coordinates etc) to gc.com - the maintenance work would be very difficult. Probably he copies the caches to gc.com to be able to log them himself and increase his number of finds on gc.com. I do not think that this fully explains the popularity of national sites in some countries. I feel that it is perfectly ok if people use their native language for logging on gc.com if they prefer to do so. Of course, it would help foreigners if important messages like "cache is missing" are repeated in 1-2 English sentences if possible. Take for example Germany. Their the majority of cachers logs in German and the majority of caches on gc.com is available only in German (I do not appreciate the latter). To be able to use the interface of gc.com, a very poor knowledge of English suffices. It seems to me that much depends on the decisions of the pioneer cachers in a country. Many cachers that start later imitate the example of the pioneers. Yes, more or less. We do not have, however, something like a national gc site at all. The Austrian geocaching statistics (in English!), the Austrian geocaching discussion board and a recently started map project are all on different sites and managed by different cachers. In Austria geocaching is relatively young, and almost all cachers belong to what you describe as cachers of the first generation (though some of us are older than 35 ...). Cezanne

I was already aware of the Slovakian site, but I have to admit that I only had a very short look at it some time ago. I was disappointed to see that yet another country prefers a local data base over an international one. Do you by chance know why most Slovak cachers prefer the Slovakian site? How is the situation in the Czech republic? Almost all Slovak people I met had at least the same level of proficiency of English than the people in my home country, Austria. (Most of them also speak several other foreign languages quite fluently.) Are there other reasons than simply the language reason? I guess that there must be other also reasons for the popularity of local systems in come countries as, for example, an overwhelming number of people in the Netherlands speaks English while a large number of caches there is only available in Dutch. Cezanne

Bonjour les Galois, I will respond to your question in English to avoid excluding people who do not understand French and who might be able to contribute to this thread. (Moreover, my English is much better than my French.) I believe that not many cachers from Slovakia are reading this forum. So it might be better to try to contact some Slovak geocachers directly. (Their number is, however, not that high. Geocaching is not popular in Slovakia.) No, it's not the same place. Maybe the following web site about the Slovakian paradise (in English) contains some useful information for you. http://www.slovenskyraj.sk/en.html I cannot help you much in that regard. I have been in Slovakia, even in the Tatra mountains area, but I attended a conference there and had no time for hiking. Moreover, 10 years have been past since then. There is an Austrian cacher (geocaching name: wiworu) who has spent some days last year in the area and has found one cache there and has even hidden one (which is, however, in bad condition). His English is not that good, but you might still try to contact him and ask him for suggestions. He is a kind person and apparently he likes hiking very much. Avec mes amitiés Cezanne