cezanne

You certainly have to follow the clues for finding the Platform 9 3/4 cache, in very much the same way as you have to do for caches in caves where you cannot simply make an exhaustive search. The coordinates are not useless, but they are just the coordinates of a very well known train station - the cache is hidden in this area and the hunt can start at the given coordinates. After reaching this starting point, the GPSr is useless in any case, that's true as there are no further coordinates. My remark regarding the coordinates reflected the fact that the cache is classified as traditional one while you would regard it as multi cache. Where is the borderline against caches in caves, gorges etc? There you also do not have the coordinates of the cache and need the clues in the description. As your letterbox classification is regarded: A film canister can never be a letterbox (there is no room for the stamp etc). Please read the instructions about letterboxes first before stating that a micro cache of the type of Platform 9 3/4 is a letterbox. If you want to you can use your GPSr - other things might be better to find the cache but theoretical you can find it with your GPSr as well. In my eyes it's a geocache. But if there exists no reception (such places do exist), you can just hold the GPSr in your hands and cannot use it in the normal way! You can also turn on your GPSr in a library, but can we call this "using the GPSr"? Many traditional caches I found, can be found with every map, and that way is even often the most convenient one. Try, for example, to navigate with a GPS in the narrow lanes in the centre of certain towns or villages. I got your point, but there are so many other caches where you only have coordinates of the place where to start. Many offset caches are of that type as well. For example, go to tower XY (at a place which typically can be found with every map!) and then look for a large fir and go from there 100 meters into the direction in which you can see a large group of rocks. I ask again: Where is the borderline? How many sites do you need to have a home for all the different kind of ideas related to searching for cache boxes? Cezanne

I am aware of the difference. I wrote, however, complained somehow. Moreover, I was not referring to your statements in this subforum. Some of the formulations you used in another forum come very close to at least a soft form of a complaint. The fact that you decided to ignore the posters in the German speaking subforum and to post in another German speaking geocaching forum instead (one specifically for Germany) is a further indication that your main interest does not seem to be to discuss about different opinions. Let me ask again: Is none of the examples I brought up above a geocache in your opinion? Where is the borderline according to your opinion? Cezanne

There are coordinates involved and these are non artificial ones, but many places are much more conveniently to find without GPSr. Have a look at my examples. Here is another one: Caches in indoor facilities. Take for example, Bookworm Wanted. Of course, you can use you GPSr to go to the library, but that is not the typical way one would do it. For the real hunt, the GPSr is useless. The same is true for caches where the coordinates are the coordinates of the starting point or a parking lot nearby and then the remaining hunt will typically done without GPSr (read my posting above for a listing of possible reasons). By the way, the original poster does not want to submit a cache where a GPSr is not useful. He is complaining somehow about the cache of someone else that has been approved. Cezanne

To clarify, I do not regard couch potato caches as caches, but the current discussion started due to a cache (hidden recently in Germany) which has not the faintest similarity to a couch potato cache. Cezanne

Quite a lot of arguments in favor of a positive answer to your question have been brought up in the German speaking subforum. You decided for some unknown reason to ignore those arguments. There are many caches where a GPSr is not needed or is of no use at all expect that you might be able to reach some form of starting coordinates with it. Most of the caches belonging to this type I am aware of are nice caches that receive many positive logs. What about caches in well-known caves where the starting coordinates are the coordinates of the entrance of the cave which can much more easily be found by following some sign posts than by using the GPSr (often the reception in such areas is almost non-existent)? What about caches in very public places where the hider does not want the cachers to run around with the GPSr because this receives too much attention. (I already mentioned the example of the cache Platform 9 3/4 in the thread in German - note that the starting coordinates of that cache are not the coordinates of the cache, but just of the train station which is much easier to find without GPSr.) What about caches in areas where the hider wishes the cachers to mind their steps (for safety reasons or for ecological reasons) and thus does not want the cachers to use their GPSr? (In such cases sometimes coordinates are given, but accompanied by a description and/or photographs and the request not to use the GPSr.) What about caches in gorges where there exists no GPS-reception? What about caches in urban areas with very narrow streets? You could switch on your GPS there, but typically it is useless and you are far better off with a map. There are many other forms of caches where a GPSr is not helpful/meaningful which many cachers would miss a lot if they did not exist. Geocache for means that there exists a cache and that coordinates are involved, but not that I necessarily need a GPSr to access the coordinates. I cannot understand which advantage it brings to you to limit the caches on gc.com to a very narrow concept. Does it increase your fun? You are still free to select the caches you want to find and you want to hide. I cannot find a single line of text on gc.com that excludes the cache types I mentioned above. Would you prefer caches where some artificial stages are added? One could take, for example, a cache in a narrow street and additionally add coordinates of a place some 100 meters apart where the GPS-r is much better and which can be much more easily found with a street map. Even you would be forced to refer to such caches as caches since it will be very hard for you to distinguish caches where some form of reception exists in the target area and where this is not the case. Similar problems arise in most of the cases I listed above. Cezanne

Good point. I have to admit that I learnt about the change of the name of the "question mark type" only quite a while after the change has been made. Until the change of the name, almost all caches that contained puzzles had been classified as multi caches. One of the problems with the current definition of the cache types is that they are subject to interpretation. In different regions of the world, they are interpreted differently. Take again the "Hungry Mountain" cache. Most Austrian cachers would agree with the cache hider and classify it as traditional one (though the coordinates are not the coordinates of the hideout). The majority of cachers from Germany who are active in the German speaking subforum of gc.com would classify it as multi cache. Several people in this discussion (including Jeremy) suggest the type "mystery/puzzle" cache. I do not appreciate that much a scenario where the classification of a cache depends much more on local habits than on anything else. Such a situation is certainly confusing for those who cache in different regions of the world. Cezanne

That will depend on the specific case, e.g., on the size of the cave (have a look, for example, at Dark Experience, another cave cache which is classified as traditional one). The real issue, however, is that the hider of a cache in or close to a cave has a serious interest that his/her cache description is being read. Otherwise, people will search around at places where this might easily have negative effects to the environment. Actually, this would mean that the big majority of multi caches in German speaking countries would have to be classified as puzzle caches. The number of multi caches where all intermediary stages are micro caches or are comprised of other forms of written hints is rather small. I guess that a big mess would result from such a change of the usage of "puzzle cache" in the countries I mentioned. I guess it is important to point out that the distribution of caches among the types traditional, multi and mystery/puzzle varies considerably from region to region. While in the US, traditional caches represent by far the majority of caches, this is not true everywhere. For example, in many German-speaking countries the number of non traditional caches exceeds the number of traditional ones. A recent example from Austria (not an extreme one at all - sometimes the number of non traditional caches is higher): Among the newest 25 caches (excluding the event cache and the new webcam cache), there are 9 caches classified as traditionals and the rest is classified als multi cache. (At least 3 of the traditionals are, however, not really traditionals, but rather puzzle caches.) Using the procedure you suggest, we would end up with about 80% or even more of the caches being in the puzzle category. This would be annoying for those cachers who do prefer caching without having to solve puzzles. They cannot any longer recognize easily caches that are of potential interest to them. Cezanne

I agree with what you write in most aspects. I am aware of the fact that the coordinates given for a traditional cache are defined as coordinates of the cache. The issue I was trying to point out was, however, not the fact that caches like Hungry Mountain are not classified correctly. If the real meaning of "puzzle/mystery" cache is just that one is asked to read the description of the cache, then I strongly suggest to change the name of the cache type. I would never attach the label "puzzle/mystery cache" to a cache where nothing is incorporated which can be regarded as puzzle or anything else which needs to be figured out. To illustrate what I am trying to say, consider the following example: Suppose there are two boxes and the labels are saying "only for blue socks" and "only for red socks", respectively. I would never put green socks into either of them regardless of whether there might be another sign around saying that all socks which are not red, should be put into the box for blue socks. In short, as long as the description of the cache types contain contradictory parts, many misclassifications and unnecessary debates will result (in particular in non English-speaking countries. There should be no need to interpret the description of the types and to argue along the lines "it is implied ....", "it can be assumed" etc. Hard facts are to be preferred. Cezanne

Well, apparently my understanding of the notion "puzzle" is a different one than yours. If someone tells me to enter a cave at the given coordinates, continue through the cave (only one way) and to search for the cache close to the exit area of the cave, following this description has in my opinion not the slightest similarity to solving a puzzle or figuring something out whatever it might be.If you define the notion puzzle in such a wide sense to even comprise following a few lines of a concise description, then almost every multi cache that contains a stage where a task has to be solved needs to be moved over to the puzzle cache type. Even straightforward counting tasks which occur rather frequently in multi caches, require the use of one's brain more actively than just following a simple and short description. I'd be interested to learn which puzzle you need to solve to find the Hungry Mountain cache I mentioned above.Of course, you need to figure out where the cache is hidden, but this is required for any non-virtual cache, isn't it? Cezanne

Sounds like a mystery/puzzle cache to me. I do not think that the notion "mystery/puzzle" cache is appropriate for the class of caches I am thinking of. There no puzzles at all have to be solved. If this cache type (the description and name of which by the way have changed without notification of the cachers) is indeed thought to comprise everything that cannot be regarded as anything else, than the name needs to be changed. Typically the type "mystery/puzzle" is used for caches which cannot be done without preparation - quite a number of them require hours or even days to even obtain the starting coordinates. Consequently, those cachers who wish to start out on spontaneous cache tours or who do not have much time available, often refrain from looking at the "mystery/puzzle" type at all. My question concerned caches which are almost traditional caches - the given coordinates are typically only a few meters (less than 100m in almost all cases) away from the cache coordinates. The cache Hungry Mountain is an example of the type I am talking of. The only difference to traditional caches is that the cache description is needed - in every other aspect these caches behave like classical traditional ones. The effort for the cacher is exactly the same, and those who love traditional caches also love these "almost traditional ones". Another example of "almost traditional caches" are caches where the reception at the hideout place is bad and therefore the coordinates have been measured at a nearby place and the cache description contains the distance and bearing to the hideout. (Though such caches could be regarded as offset ones, they do not comply with the explanation of offset caches in the guidelines of gc.com since no hints are to be found at the given coordinates.) Cezanne

What about caches where you do not get any hints at the coordinates? Consider for example caches that are hidden in caves where the coordinates of the entrance are given and a description of the place where approximately the cache is to be found in (or near to) the cave is part of the cache description. These caches are neither traditionals (coordinates are not exact coordinates of the cache box) nor deserve to be classified as multi caches or mystery caches (moreover, the definition of multi caches does not apply either, at least not in the strict sense). There are many cachers who like single stage caches where no tasks, puzzles etc have to be solved. They would like to be able to separate such caches from real multi caches. The current definition of multi caches (and of offset caches) results in many caches that are classified as traditional caches although they do not belong to the latter class in the strict sense. Cezanne

As the question is regarded whether or not the TB is offensive, yes I do. Not to all, but to some. Do not forget that many people read this forum, but do not write here (because they are sufficiently wise ...). My guess is because he is by far not that used to posting in the English-language forums on this server than you, and thus naively believed that a topic with such a serious background would not degenerate in the manner it now happened. This was only one of several questions asked. It was not the fault of BS that most people did not respond to the particular question you are referring to. Summarizing, it seems, however, that the majority of those who responded to the question thinks that no such option is needed. Not many people are able to accomplish that. Cezanne

The places he listed (medical camp at Graz and Döllersheim) are not places which can be visited as act of remembrance. It would be a different story for concentration camps, newly built synagogues (at places of old ones which have been destroyed) etc. Moreover, my personal assumptions are not important. I am trying to communicate what people for whom the Nazi regime belongs to their history will feel if they come across the TB. The important thing is not whether the owner of the TB had malicious intent or not. It is well known in communication theory that the message sent by a person and the message received by the audience is not necessarily the same. It might well be that the message the TB owner was intending to send is much more harmless than the message that is arriving at the destination. It makes no sense at all to discuss what the owner of the TB might have had in mind, what counts is that the message communicated by his TB is very offensive for the people at the place where the TB has been sent to. Hence there are three possible alternatives: (1) the TB owner chooses to react and tells us that he did not want to communicate an offensive message and modifies the description accordingly (then everything will be fine), or (2) he reacts, but tells us that his TB will remain unchanged, or (3) he does not react at all. While it is clear how to deal with case (1), it is still open how to deal with (2) or (3). Cezanne

But I had tried to listen already from the beginning. I certainly misunderstood him partially (as the usage of "you" is regarded"). Basically I agree, but only to some extent. Apart from the fact that the background of the TB is a much more serious issue than posting a question on this forum, there is another important difference: If someone got upset by the manner BS asked his question, they could very easily ask for clarifications here and they did receive responses. This not the case for people who come across the TB and feel offended. Apart from the fact that the owner is not reacting at all to attempts to contact him, there are many Austrians and Germans who do not feel to be able to discuss about rather complex topics like the Nazis in English and thus would have major difficulties to communicate their discomfort with the TB's mission. BS did not comment on that aspect. It was me who wrote that I find it hard to believe that the owner of the TB knows nothing about the background. My belief is, however, not based on US history books (I am somewhat familiar with what is typically taught in US high schools). It is simply hard to believe for me that in the times of the www where information is so easily accessible someone would send out his TB to a place about which he has not tried to find some information. But I have to admit that I am a scientist, and most probably I have a different kind of thinking and a greater drive for finding out as much as possible about the truth however it might look like. I never was satisfied with the small portion of knowledge that is taught in schools. Neither BS nor myself did condemn any person here. One last time: The issue here is not condemning anyone. Even before reading your postings and the postings of others along the same lines I did not condemn the owner of the TB. The topic of this thread is how to proceed with the TB, and not with the owner. I, however, agree with you that further discussions will not be fruitful, so I am going to quit this discussion. Cezanne

Do you know our history books? Or do you talk about history books in the US or some other part of the world? I agree with you that painful periods of history are repressed too often and many people prefer to "forget" nasty parts. The aspect that is missing in your comment is the description of the TB: The offensive thing is not that it deals with a very sad chapter of history which will hopefully not repeat. If the goal of the TB were to visit places of Nazi crimes as an act of remembrance and if this happened with a feeling of mourning about the victims, then this thread would no exist. Cezanne

Once again: He moved it immediately to the graveyard because he did not want to have the TB in his cache for a longer time. Since the cacher owner has not logged on to gc.com for a while, it is not that likely that he will respond quickly if at all. The same is true for gc.com: If you contact them with a technical issue, then probably they will answer after a week. If you contact them with an issue like the present one, it is very likely that you will receive no response at all. Contacting the main approver for Austria, also did not result in a satisfactory solution. BS could have provided some more details in his first posting on what he already done, but anyone here is able to ask questions if he/she wants to know more. As your complaint about the order of his actions is regarded: What is wrong with spending the waiting time until perhaps gc.com or the TB owner will respond, with asking for suggestions in this forum? I cannot see any advantage in putting the TB virtually into a graveyard, keeping slilent and asking for suggestions only after some weeks. BS's posting was a request for suggestions how to proceed, not a posting to judge the owner of the TB or the uncle. Therefore, I cannot see any problem in asking for suggestions before the TB owner has replied. Cezanne

First, I did not take any action. I live at quite a distance of the cache. Second, do you really believe that the TB would continue its journey if it had stayed in that cache? Do you think that the owner of the TB would prefer that it remains in a cache off its target forever, or gets vandalized because someone feels offended? (I am not saying that the latter would happen, it is just a hypothetical question.) Until now I was believing that the TB is probably of value to the owner, in particular of a value that is not connected to money (i.e., the cost of the TB tag). If the owner does not want to change the set-up of his TB to make it less offensive, I cannot see any other way than sending it back to him to avoid that it is getting lost almost surely somewhere during its mission. A TB cannot speak. More seriously, I did not build up an attitude about the owner of the TB, simply about the TB and the way it makes Austrians feel. I am very glad that someone else wrote in this thread that it is hard for a non-Austrian to judge which emotions he/she would have about the TB if he were Austrian. Did you read this thread? Which action did I take? You are talking of freedom of speech and at the same time you mention "lobbying towards banning of *my* account"? The only thing I did was providing some background information and defending BS (whom I have never met up to know - I do not even his real name) when I felt that the attacks on him were unfair. I did not attack in a single line the owner of the TB, neither his uncle. If you felt offended by what I did, I am sorry for that, but it is certainly easier to deal with such an offense than if the offense caused by the TB. Cezanne

That's definitely not possible. The uncle was member of the Waffen-SS. I have the feeling that many who post in this thread do not have a very detailed knowledge about the SS and its divisions. Otherwise, the terms "soldier" and "fight for the country" would not occur that offen.

How often have you been in Austria? I ignore your insulting closing of your posting. I have a question, however, to those (and only those!!) who argue that there is no reason to feel offended about the TB "Divided Family 2". On which ground did the United States put Kurt Waldheim on their watchlist and thus denied the Austrian federal president from 1986-1992 entry to the US? (I am not a supporter of Waldheim, but note that the "only" thing that could be proved by an independent commission was that he did not tell the full truth about his past and that he repressed parts of his life.) I hesitated to mention the name "Waldheim" as I definitely do not want a discussion on that subject and even less in this forum. Normally I keep out of political discussions regardless of the topic. In this case I stepped in because I did not want to watch that BS becomes attacked by so many people for a very courageous action. I mentioned Waldheim's name just because I needed a concrete example to point out something which I consider as very odd: People with a "more harmless" CV than the uncle of the TB's owner can easily be denied entry to the US while cachers from the US are telling us on this forum that we do not have the right to feel offended by the TB "Divided Family 2". If there existed an entry procedure for TBs to the US (of course this is only hypothetical), this TB almost surely would get denied entry, but you argue that we should be happy with it in Austria? Cezanne

What you ignore in your posting, however, is that having being a member of the Waffen SS is not the same as having been a member of the German army at that time (Wehrmacht). Moreover, all what you say regards the uncle and the family of the owner of the TB and not the TB! It's the set-up of the TB which causes the offense. The history cannot be changed, but the TB could.

Why should we offer history lessons in this forum? Anyone can look up the information if he is interested. Please note that the owner of the TB mentions the medical camp at Graz, not just a training at the medical faculty (college in the US-terminology where faculty means the staff and not the organisational unit) of the university of Graz, or just being temporarily stationed as a soldier in Graz. The history of the involvement of medicine in the crimes of the Nazis is a very complicated and serious issue. I suspect that you cannot read German. Otherwise I would, for example, recommend you the following book http://www.studienverlag.at/titel.php3?ISBN=3-7065-1565-2 It might be that the owner of the TB has no idea what happened in the medical camp in Graz, but I cannot imagine that someone who spent some time there was not aware of what happened. The reason why I wrote in another posting that it is hard for me to believe that the owner of the TB is not knowing some background is that it seems quite natural for me to search for informations about a place which I am going to select as goal for a TB before sending it off. I am, for example, wondering what it should mean to send a TB to the "medical camp at Graz". Fortunately, this place does not exist any longer. Unlike concentration camps, there does not exist a place of remembrance. Why did the owner not just write "visit Graz as my uncle has be stationed there"? Of course, the successor of the "Feldhof" (hospital for mental illnesses, see http://www.lsf-graz.at/cms/ziel/492370/DE/ for some history in German) and the Medical University of Graz (a separate university since this year) exist, but nobody would refer to these institutions as "medical camp at Graz". Moreover, let me add that I feel very much ashamed for what happened during those times although I am way too young to have lived in that time and although my family has not been involved. It is my right to feel deeply offended by the TB "Divided Family 2". This is not at all intolerant. Noone tried to pronounce guilt - the issue is not the uncle, but the TB. The TB is offending for cachers in the region where it is currently located and we are the only ones who can judge on that. Nobody decided that "medical training" implies war crimes. But the medical camp was not identical to the medical college of the University of Graz which you seem to say. I sincerely hope that you now stop to attack BS and to discuss about topics which are not the issue of BS's request. Feel free to discuss about the TB and about possible ways to resolve the issue, but please stop to discuss about the person owning the TB and about his family. Cezanne

The issue here is not about forgiving. Everyone here could have easily asked BS in case of unclear points in his original posting in which he simply asked for suggestions. I am glad that some of you provided valuable suggestions instead of flaming BS for his post. The fact that he posted this message here shows that he is a diligent person. He could have avoided himself a lot of frustration if he had refrained from asking his question in this forum. As to your specific points, it seems to me that it became quite clear that he wanted to move the TB to a TB graveyard to avoid that it remains in the inventory of his cache or his own inventory. I already explained that the expression "throw out" has a literal meaning in the German language (at least in the Austrian usage) which is not at all destructive. I ask you again: In how many foreign languages are *you* able to argue with native speakers of that language who are not willing to take into account that a foreigner is not always able to choose the word which fits 100%. I do not regard this a funny. I just feel with BS since I can understand his situation. Perhaps you should try to go to a forum where you have to argue in a foreign language. Let me then know afterwards your experience. There is another thing you apparently got wrong. The issue here is not to put the owner of the TB into the category of "bad guys". Neither of us is knowing him, and it is not possible to judge someone whom you do not know. The issue here is also not judging the uncle. The issue is just judging the TB and saying that it's not appropriate and very offensive in the way it is currently set up. Cezanne

On the "destroy stuff" line of thought. What did you do w/ the TB and figurine? Did you mail them back to the owner? Send him the money to replace them? If you didnt do either of these things I can agree you have destroyed his stuff. Please consider that BS is not a native speaker of English and that he felt a strong offense when he found the Divided Family 2 TB in his cache. In how many foreign languages are you able to express yourself consisely in all kinds of situations? Of course "throw out" (rauswerfen in German) was not meant in the sense that he took the TB and put it into the next wastebasket. He was referring mainly to the virtual action of logging the TB out of his cache and logging it into a TB graveyard because he does not want to have it in its inventory. All other actions you suggest cannot be taken unless the owner of the TB responds to the mail BS has sent to him .... All this has been explained already several times in this thread. Cezanne

He can be proud of whomever he wants to, but do you really believe that the places where he wishes to send his TB to constitute reasonable goals to show his family pride? In my opinion, he is mainly causing a big offense. How can you compare the medical experiments undertaken by the Nazis with fighting a battle? Certainly both things are evil things, but for me there is still a difference between the Nazi crimes, and taking part in a battle as a soldier. Cezanne

Up to now I tried to remain calm. Do you really mean what you wrote? We had quite some diverse opinions here, but really nobody made any such claim. The discussion was about the offense caused by the TB, and not about the owner and his family. Sending around such a TB shows a lack for respect for the many victims of the Nazi regime. I have some difficulties in believing that the owner of the TB did not inform himself about places like Döllersheim and the medical camp in Graz before sending out his TB, but in case he responds to this thread or to the mail of BS and tells us/BS that he feels sorry for the offense caused and either removes his TB from the game or changes it to a respectful item, I would be satisfied with the outcome. Now I am really confused. Maybe I am working too long hours .... About which battle are you talking? Did you realize that Austrians feel annoyed about the TB? Do you believe that they have been on the winning side? I cannot imagine that there exists a cacher in Austria who is willing to pick up the TB "Divided Family 2". So, are you saying that all Austrians are narrow-minded? Moreover, members of several other nationalities have agreed that the message of this TB is very offensive. Are all these people narrow-minded? Cezanne